Islam

[Ash]

Many people hate Islam because of rumors or what they've read and how radical Islamists use their religion to condone premeditated murder.

But there are millions of people who follow and love it.

I have known people who are devout Muslims and most of them are good people.
But we all know about how intolerant Islam is of secularism and other religions.

My goal here is to determine what we here on this board think of Islam.
Because this is a somewhat sensitive topic, please...no flame wars.  Keep it civil.

As for myself, I quote Winston Churchill...

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia (rabies) in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries; improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

"A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

"No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step. Were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome."

What do you think about Islam? 
Be honest!  No one here is going to kill you for stating your opinion.

[indianasmith]

Islam is NOT a religion of peace, although some of its adherents are peaceful people.  From Muhammad on down, Islam has been spread by the sword.  Violence is openly proclaimed as an acceptable means of proselytizing in the pages of the Quran, and the more modern, radical schools of Islam simply represent the faith returning to its bloody roots.

Christians have also practiced violence in their long history, but when a Christian kills in the name of his faith, he does so in direct violation of everything that Jesus Christ taught.  When a Muslim kills in the name of his faith, he is following Muhammad's example.

[RCMerchant]

I don't know alot about Islam....but of ALL organized religion I'm of the opinion that it's worthless. How many people kill one another because of "My Gods bigger than your God?" Fooey. It's all BS.
 I believe in a God. But thats my business....and I don't feel the need to impress it onto anyone elese. If you wanna pray to Jesus, the Virgin Mary,the Flying Spagehtti Monster or some Alien from Outer Space...fine! Have at it brother! But point a gun at someome with a (insert EVIL DEAD voice here--->) "JOIN US!" ...well...

 Too many idiots without the capacitiy to control themselves in a civil manner reley on some ancient outdated theology to  keep there heads out there asses...and too many nut jobs with bad intent make use of the brainless lemmings for their personal agenda.

 Ok. I guess I'm done.

[Jack]

The newscasters on TV keep insisting that Islam is a wonderful religion and 99.999% of the people who follow it are peaceful;  I just don't see it.  After 9/11 the news networks were running around looking for an American Muslim group to condemn the attacks, and they couldn't find any willing to do so.  They did a Gallup poll in Pakistan and found that 80% of people think of Bin Laden as a "freedom fighter".  I mean, freedom from what?  They're right next door to Afghanistan and obviously must know that it was one of the most non-free places on Earth.  And on and on.  There was a guy in the US military who was a Muslim and he decided to toss a few grenades into the tents of his fellow soldiers.  I see Jewish hotels in Africa getting bombed and the local Muslim population reacts by saying "Ha Ha, it was just Jews".  I honestly think that if they had the means, the countries of the Middle East would kill every last Jew in Israel, exactly like the Nazi holocaust.  If they had better military planners, it would already be done.

As far as other religions, when the Christians were carrying out the crusades, I would have stayed the hell away from them as well. 

 

[lester1/2jr]

I post at a muslim board sometime.  I wanted to get authentic views on foreign policy that weren't from "experts".  I learned more there than I did thruogh Bernard lewis, juan cole or any of those 'splainer men. 


I'd say the key thing I learned was that there are 3 sides:  us, the jihadists, and neither.  the jihadists act like anyone who is not on their side is on the americans side, and the americans act like anyone who doesn't like them is al queda.

In reality,  while most muslims share the same general religion as al queda, islam, and the same generally modern way of life as americans, unless you go way way out in the countryside like afghanistan,  they are their own distinct group.

they don't like us  OR al queda and i don't think the american public understands that alot of times.

[Captain Tars Tarkas]

If everyone in the middle east worshiped giant fluffy bunnies we'd still have 99% of the exact same problems (except we'd also have some cool giant bunny statues)

[ER]

It's a myth that Islam may be summed up simply as a religion of peace. There are of course peaceful Moslems (that's the Farsi pronunciation, by the way, an "o" not a "u")  and many good people who follow Islam are peaceful, but at its heart Islam is, was, and probably always will be a religion which readily embraces violence as an acceptable tool of conquest, conformity, criminal punishment, random terror.

The genesis of Islam was in violent clan warfare, wholesale massacres (Google Banu Qurayza sometime if you doubt it) and conversion at swordpoint. I've read the Koran and  studied Islamic history and can tell you the politically correct "embrace diversity at all costs" view of the world's second largest religion is not accurate. According to the United Nations, Islamic states are the most undereducated, intolerant countries in existence, and nowhere else are Christians, Jews, Buddhists and miscellaneous unbelievers persecuted as they are in Moslem societies. Nowhere else are women afforded so little justice or opportunities for advancement. (If a woman in an Islamic nation achieves status, it is in spite of Islam, not because of it.) Nowhere else is free expression more suppressed in the name of God.

Without empty bigotry and after much reflection I can honestly say I believe a twenty-first-century earth dominated by Islam would be a world plunged into a bleak darkness unknown in fifteen centuries.

[Andrew]

It depends on which part of the religion you focus on.  If you look at the two books, the Bible and the Qur'an, they are similar on a basic level.  The Old Testament more than the New.

The problem is that any religion has the power to direct millions of people in one endeavour.  In a good one, like fighting hunger, disease, or poverty it is great.  However, as Jack pointed out, when the focus is on war or "making others conform" to the religion, it is a blight upon mankind.

[AnubisVonMojo]

My stance on Islam is that of every other religion: do whatever you want, so long as you don't bother everybody else with it. I don't believe in any philosophy whose followers think they have the right to tell people how to live their lives and denounces those who choose a different path for themselves. Religions need to start evolving with the rest of humanity. Do any religious texts say anything about cars or indoor plumbing or television or designer clothes? No? Then before anyone starts telling me what's right or wrong based on whatever ancient text they're quoting, they better be dressed in robes, pulling a camel, and living in a tent. This goes for the people using guns and rocket launchers in the name of their religion too. If you love owning your women and hating the rest of the world so much, go back to using swords to spread your message and stop cheating with anti-tank weapons.

I was once told I'd go to Hell while I has a beard, long hair, and was wearing sandals, all by a guy who was wearing a suit, leather shoes, and "bearing the mark of Kane". That's another contention: how can black people so adamantly support a religion that once said they were the source of all evil in the world!? If you can accept the technological advances of man, and you can "forgive" black people for being descendants of one of the most evil people in your centuries old soap opera, then try a little harder and understand that people have also had mental, emotional, and sexual revolutions and they're not evil because of it!

Here's the biggest question to ask any person of any religion: if your deity is so perfect and so right, then why did they allow everybody in the world not involved in your religion to exist? Why are they so many "wrong" people on the Earth if your high-muckity-muck is so right and has the absolute power to make them see the error of their ways on his/her/its own? Why do you think you need to be the mouthpiece or the sword of your "whatever upstairs", if said whatever should be able to do their work themselves? If it was such a big deal, don't you think an omnipotent being would part the clouds, step down to Earth, and hold a global press conference to set everything straight? If that omnipotent super being isn't willing to do so, what makes you think you've got the right to do the same? If your god, whomever they may be, is so perfect and all knowing, then shouldn't you allow him to operate the rest of the world while you stay home and pray? Have you no faith that your god knows what they're doing?! Sounds like blasphemy to me...

The funny thing is that, if Mohammad or Moses or Jesus were on Earth today, talking the same kind of shtick they were millenniums ago, they'd be ignored just like every other psychotic bum on the street begging for change in between rants on condemning us all to eternal suffering. That's the only thing separating the major religions from modern super cults like Scientology: L Ron Hubbard was born 2000 years too late...

Okay, enough with my rant. However you choose to carve the turkey, I'm going to start a religion based on the stories of Hans Christian Andersen. Hell, one group of fairy tales is as good as another, right? They're all meant to provide morals anyway, so why not? The only reason people gave up on ancient mythologies was because there were too many damn deities to keep track of... 

[AndyC]

I try never to blame any religion for what some people choose to do with it. There are, and have always been, a lot of greedy, violent, controlling, ignorant, bigoted psychopaths in the world, and they will use whatever tools they can find to control people and justify their crimes.

Don't blame religion for the Crusades, the Inquisition or 9-11. Blame people.

And Anubis, there are plenty of religious people who do believe religion should evolve, that scriptures should be studied in context before applying them to the modern world, that it's all right to think and doubt and question. We believe science and faith are both part of a search for truth and meaning, and need not compete. We're flexible and respect other religions. Unfortunately, we're harder to spot because these very traits make us less loud and pushy.

And to be fair, L. Ron Hubbard, from what I understand, set out to engineer his own religion to exploit people. He was different from Jesus.

[clockworkcanary]

IMO, some sects of Islam need to evolve like some of the Western religions have.  Each cult of personality/religion has had a bloodthirsty, not-so-free, expansionist, convert-or-die past, even our "western religions" too.  But, many of these religions/worldviews basically grew up over time.  Some folks just take longer than others. 

Hell, not even 200 years ago "our" religion wasn't too friendly to the religions of the people already living here, just as one example.  That conflict is not really an issue anymore because they're pretty much extinct/converted/assimilated/or relocated. 

But I think there's a little bit of human nature in all of it; it's natural to be tribal (it's more about football now where I live) and aggression is a natural part of all sentient beings, unfortunately.  These natural impulses need a more constructive channel however.  Also, in many of these countries, there is not much difference between state and religion; so in a sense, many are still in the dark ages like "our" Middle Age where, again, there was no difference between Church and State.

But I digress.  My point is that, in our society at least, we've gone through a lot of changes and are much more accepting than we were even 100 years ago where we weren't so tolerant.  A lot can change in a short amount of time and I hope that the more friendly Muslim leaders can police their own a bit better.  Perhaps their liberalisation will come sooner than later.

[AnubisVonMojo]

And Anubis, there are plenty of religious people who do believe religion should evolve, that scriptures should be studied in context before applying them to the modern world, that it's all right to think and doubt and question. We believe science and faith are both part of a search for truth and meaning, and need not compete. We're flexible and respect other religions. Unfortunately, we're harder to spot because these very traits make us less loud and pushy.

I know these people are out there. My fiancee's friend is a "born again" who also maintains her common sense and doesn't judge others for disagreeing with her. You people are great! You should be the types of religious people who ARE out there being loud!... just not so much pushy... and not amidst the general public, but more amidst the members of your religions who ARE still living in the dark ages. You're not all bad obviously, you just need better exposure than the freaks like the Jesus Camp people.

And to be fair, L. Ron Hubbard, from what I understand, set out to engineer his own religion to exploit people. He was different from Jesus.

Different in their motivations, and that there's evidence Crazy Old Man Hubbard existed, yes. I meant more in the universal way that Jesus and other prophets like Mohammad and Moses did the, "Hey, all you suggestible people! Gather round and let me tell you a story about why you're living your lives wrong..." You know, like Manson and Hitler and David Koresh all manipulated the downtrodden and aimless people around them in the modern age. The saddest part is that, according to the stories, Jesus was the one who wanted people to love and respect one another and it was his own followers who twisted and perverted his words later on to center on violence, fear, and hate mongering. Didn't they also invent the concept of Hell to punish the non-believers after JC croaked? As far as Moses goes, I think he just wanted his people to be free and endure the sufferings of life until the great reward of death, right? I don't know myself, but did Judaism ever go through the revisions and exploitation that Christianity did? That's the other problem I have: when religions do go through massive changes, it always seems to be due to the exploitations of the powerful when they wanted to get a divorce or bang their hot sister-in-law.

Speaking of the Old and New Testaments, I just learned a few months ago that my fiancee's aunt is on my list of infuriating religious people. She thinks that the New Testament is absolute and without fault, but says that the Old Testament is all a bunch of crazy bulls**t... That's like living in a house that has absolutely no foundation! Are there a lot of these people out there who think Christianity is the only way things can be and that Judaism is a bunch of crap, even though their religion was taken directly from it?! Jesus was a Jew! And when you try to explain the logic to the woman, she says we're ganging up on her and harassing her! I know this thread was intended not to include any kind of flaming, which I'm trying not to do, but is reality like acid to these people!?

I don't know, if I'm being offensive then I apologize and I'll make it a point not to engage in religious topics on the board, but as a logical person, religion gives me a headache. So far the only thing I've really heard religiously that I agree with was something I'd heard from Buddhists called the Diamond Sutra that, in it's boiled down state, says that people should always question everything around them, never accept anything as right or wrong, and never believe anyone's opinion but your own and even then only after you've experienced enough from every angle that you feel comfortable to do so. The only rules I follow are the ones that keep me from going to prison as a matter of self-preservation, not because I thinks it moral or immoral to do so. If everybody thinks their position is right, then everybody must be wrong... to which it'd be hypocritical of me not to say that nobody has to think the way I do either, but I can admit that and I don't need to kill or oppress anybody to prove otherwise. Live and let live kids. Throw away your pamphlets, put down your machine guns, and keep religion a private matter away from the public.

[AndyC]

I agree that it's ridiculous to knock Judaism as a Christian. Jesus was a practicing Jew. There really was no such thing as a "Christian" at that time. Christianity is based on Judaism, and Judaism shares its roots with Islam. Whether you worship God, Yaweh or Allah, it's the same deity. Understanding the other two can only bring better understanding of your own.

This year, for Maundy Thursday, our church held a potluck dinner in the tradition of a Passover Seder. Not kosher, but as authentic as possible. I heard later on that one of the participants had to defend this to some friends from other churches who had a problem with a Christian church observing a Jewish custom. We were marking the Last Supper, which was....a Passover Seder. You can't take the Jewish influence out of Christianity without losing a lot.

Islam, for that matter, recognizes Jesus as a prophet. It's just that they see Mohammed as the last word in prophets.

[Ed, Ego and Superego]

If you look at the Sharia'a (thelaws) and the Koran they are actully pretty good guidelines on how to lead a decent life, and as Andrew says, its not THAT different from the Old Testament or the Torah.  As written (revealed?) it is just a way of living by a set of rules:
1) no god but god etc.
2) Do set things (pray to mecca), eat the right stuff, etc. as your personal circumstances permiit.  There are whole commentaries in the Sharia'a where you can justifiably not act 100% by the rules.  But live by the rules and you will be OK. 
3) Believe in Angels.
4) Spread the word (Jihad).  This has been the biggest problem, in my semi-informed opinion.  Somewhere, the concept of Jihad  has changed from "live right and be an example" to "Kill the infidel". 

I think that the extremists are really a big part of the problem.  They are like the clinic bombers, or that family that drives around the country in a bus and protests liberal events with 5 year olds. Only in Islam, not Christianity. I suspect every religion has their noisy fringe.
In my book. whenever someone gets too crazy with the religious imperatives its a bad deal.   Humanist Islam anyone?
-Ed

[AnubisVonMojo]

I think that the extremists are really a big part of the problem.  They are like the clinic bombers, or that family that drives around the country in a bus and protests liberal events with 5 year olds. Only in Islam, not Christianity. I suspect every religion has their noisy fringe.

I think this is the most disgusting part of extremists. The only thing worse than senseless hatred and bigotry is teaching it to children. Kids don't generally have the capacity of free will, they just go by what mommy and daddy say is right. It's an unfortunately legal version of the friggin' Manson Family...