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In the last few days I've been keeping close tabs on the takeover of a school in Russia by Chechen terrorists.
I can't imagine the intense worry and grief that those parents and relatives are going through waiting outside.
The Chechen terrorists have refused to let any food, water or or medicine be sent in to the hostages.
That makes me try to vividly imagine the situation going on inside the school.
Shootings, beatings and the forcing of hostages to empty their bladders & bowels into a small confined space...the smell inside there of human excrement must be unimaginable especially if the estimates that there are 500 to 1000 hostages are accurate.

When I see this on TV I think of the takeover of the theater in Moscow in 2002 by Chechen terrorists.
We all know how that ended...it was a disaster.
The Russian police pumped that opium derived gas into the theater which killed something like 129 hostages.
That was a bad move because in most of our opinions, even one hostage death is unacceptable.

(http://webshots.yellowbrix.com/story_images/DEFAULT/20021024/MOSB806102421.jpg)

I predict that this terrible situation will only end in utter disaster and that casualties will far surpass that of the theater takeover
.
How can it be ended peacefully?
I do not think that that can be done.

These terrorists have a mindset that none of us here in Western civilization can probably comprehend.
They are completely willing to die for their cause and take as many civillians with them along the way.
They have supposedly rigged the place with explosives and will detonate them if Russian forces try to take action.
They have placed hostages in the school windows as human shields.
They have also made verbal statements that they will indeed kill women & children if even a single member of their party is killed or injured.
50 people will die if one of them is killed....20 of them will die if a terrorist is hurt.

A cowardly act if I do say so myself..
Any man or woman who targets innocent women and children is a cowardly yellow sunofab***h.
That fact infuriates me to no end and is the driving force for me to write this Off Topic thread.

Just as we here in America are fighting terrorists, Russia is doing the same.
Granted there are big differences in both situations.
Russia's particularly harsh treatment of Chechnya and Chechens in general has led to the increased targeting of civillians by militants.
Russia is not completely innocent here.
It could be stated that they have brought this on themselves but that is a matter of strict opinion & conjecture.

I understand that the Chechens want to have an established seperate state.
Go HERE (http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/chechens.html) to read up on who the Chechens are and why they resort to such brutal means to achieve their imagined ends.
Not only does that website offer info on the Chechen problem, it also offers lots of information on other terrorist groups.
It does seem to be a bit dated though...everything in it is from two years ago in 2002.  
Still, it is very educational.

The Chechens' particular brand of terrorism is what's known as "Nationalist Terrorism".
Here is the definition of Nationalist Terrorism:

"Nationalist terrorists seek to form a separate state for their own national group, often by drawing attention to a fight for “national liberation” that they think the world has ignored. This sort of terrorism has been among the most successful at winning international sympathy and concessions."

In my opinion, taking over a school filled with women & children is a horrible and ill conceived way to win "sympathy and concessions".
The only end that will become of this is the death of nearly everyone involved, thus reinforcing my point that this is a fruitless endeavor.
What do the Chechens hope to gain by taking women & children hostage and possibly killing them?
Do they think that any cowardly act of mass murder will help their cause?
No way!
I believe that this act of agression will only serve to harden and alienate international attitudes and opinions toward them.
Those parents and relatives outside that school are right to worry....their friends & family inside that school will probably die.

It frustrates me to no end.
Most people in the West will probably say, "Who gives a s**t about them?  They're all the way around the world."
I do not see it that way.
I see it directly linked to our struggle as Americans against terrorism.
Hell, the Chechens have direct ties to Osama f**king bin Laden and al-Qaeda!
That is a fact that cannot be denied.

What do you make of all this and what do you think the eventual outcome of this standoff will be?



Post Edited (09-03-04 05:44)

Well it seems that the Russians stormed the school after all.

It's surreal....While I was writing this thread the invasion of the school by the Russain military took place.
Talk about coincidences.
All that was needed was sad Russian opera music while I was writing.
Seriously though, I hope no hostages were killed.

Good for the Russians!
They took their commandos in and put those militants down like the dogs they are.



Post Edited (09-07-04 03:45)

250 hostages are wounded and 180 of them are children.Tragically 5 children have been killed.

When I heard that they were using the same negotiators that were used in the theatre, you just knew that if the militants didn't come out straight away, Russia was going to make them come out.

At least this time, not as many were killed, the Russians have obviously picked up their game and improved a bit more.

Sad state of affairs, the world today.

I found some more info about the Chechen/Russian conflict HERE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,257882,00.html)

All of this makes me want to delve even deeper into this decade old debacle.
I must read more!

Over 400 people have been injured in the seige.The russian troops say that they now have control over the school.

The Russians killed five of the terrorists -the rest squirted out and are being pursued.  Apparently some are trapped in a nearby house.

Several kids were killed and hundreds injured (that was probably from a single explosion in the gymnasium where they were being held - one of the terrorists probably hit the Allah-button on his bomb vest).  Amazing more kids weren't killed.

God, what do you do if you're the Russians?  You can suck up the pain of civilian casualties in these incidents, or you can cave in and have every scumbag who wants something taking over schools and airliners and blowing up train stations from now until the end of time.  It sucks and it's painful and it isn't fair - but just like chemotherapy or having a gangrenous limb sawed off, I think storming that school is better than the alternative of rewarding that kind of insanity.

My prayers go out to the families of those killed but they also go out to the innocent non-terrorist people in Chechnya.  I have a bad feeling that they're going to suffer for this.  Soon.

I agree with Ash that Russia is not fully innocent in this situation.  This is usually the case with any country that has a terrorist attack.  If you aide or f**k with terrorists, there is always going to be a consequence.

This especially came home to us.  Atleast now we know it's not good to provide terrorists with CIA training and weapons.  Oh wait.  Al Qaeda was fighting the Russians when we helped them!  

Funny how things come full circle........

I think all countries will just have to learn to live with terrorism.Terrorism will not clear up any time soon or in years to come.

I hope a lot of those terrorists had to wither in pain before they finally died.

This especially came home to us. Atleast now we know it's not good to provide terrorists with CIA training and weapons. Oh wait. Al Qaeda was fighting the Russians when we helped them!

*****  For the record, there was no Al Qaeda when the Russians were in Afghanistan.  There is also exactly zero evidence that any US training or weapons have been used in any AQ attacks.  But don't let the facts stand in the way of your righteous indignation.

Whatever sympathy I had for the Chechens is gone.  You don't win independence by kidnapping and killing children.  The Russians have always been bastards to ethnic minorities (19th cent. vs. the Chechens, and Stalin vs. Ukranians) so I could understand why they would want to leave, but this is not the way.  Not to mention these terrorists don't just want an independent state but an Islamic state worthy of the Taliban, which is actually counter to the type of tolerant Islam practiced in the region.

It's an ugly mess there.

I often hear "One man's terrrorist is another man's freedom fighter" to argue that a bad guy from one point of view is a good guy from the other

I don't always buy it. I draw the line at getting non-combatants involved.

Ambush an enemy patrol?  OK,  I may not like it but I can grudgingly accept it as what something thinks needs to be done?

Take children hostage?  No way.

I agree that taking children hostage is no way to go about anything.  

I was reading recently that the Russians, in the past, used a concentrated Valium gas to put Chechen terrorists to sleep.  Which got me wondering why they didn't just pump a large amount of this gas into the school?

I don't think that it would be harmful to the children.  I wonder if it would have worked quick enough.  There might have been a situation where the terrorists noticed the gas by smell and start to massacre the children.

I don't know.  I do believe though that if this would have been possible, it could have saved some lives.

The Russians have always been bastards to ethnic minorities (19th cent. vs. the Chechens, and Stalin vs. Ukranians)
*****  Russians were never any worse to ethnic minorities than they were to their own people, and ethnic minorities could advance in the system.  Don't forget Stalin himself was not Russian, he was Georgian.  Your statement is correct regarding RELIGIOUS minorities however, and that is what the Chechens are.

How the reported casualties went from five to 200+ is astounding.  You'd figure the media could just wait five minutes before blurting out their reports and make sure they get their facts straight..

Poor kids.

I'm studying Taekwondo now and it's rather amazing how many martial arts were developed based on various indiginous people fighting against Japanese Imperialism at various points in the past

I could'nt agree with you more... Some parts of the world deserve to be nuked for their immoral beliefs and violent uprisings that only destroy the very fabric of society.

I support our men and women in the armed services and may the communistic parties be rendered to ashes. God bless America!

"Some parts of the world deserve to be nuked "
how much i love clever opinions.

Eirik wrote:

> How the reported casualties went from five to 200+ is
> astounding.  You'd figure the media could just wait five
> minutes before blurting out their reports and make sure they
> get their facts straight..

Now they're saying that the death toll has reached 340.

So the rate of increase is dropping?

Concentrated valium?  I knew they had used gas before but wasn't sure what it was.

They tried using that in the theatre crisis a while back, and we all know how that turned out...  Alot of people got poisoned, alot got killed, but as a friend said, better to be a bit poisoned than dead.

It's a good idea, though I don't think the Russians had time to use it in this particular situation.

From what I've heard, there was a Spetznaz force inside the building when one of the terrorist bombs went off, perhaps accidentally, so of course they stormed the place [and fair enough too, I guess]

The Russians have been putting up with this for years, and it gets worse every time.  Just be glad the terrorist attacks in the western world aren't so harsh.  Well as of yet at least. [Not that there's a good kind of terrorist attack though...]

Horrible tragedy, yet at least it wasn't a total screw-up.  We learn, we improve and we try harder to stop the next one.

Good Luck to Russia, their losses are felt by us all...

how much i love clever opinions.

pauli


Wish I could say the same about yours.. tree hugger. ; )

It's a good idea, though I don't think the Russians had time to use it in this particular situation.
*****  They may have worried what effect the gas would have on little kids...  Or the school may not have had a central ventilation system they could access.

The Russians have been putting up with this for years, and it gets worse every time. Just be glad the terrorist attacks in the western world aren't so harsh. Well as of yet at least.
*****  Um, September 11th?  Madrid?  Israel considers itself part of the Western World too, so I guess an Israeli would really take issue here.  Also I think this is the worst terrorist incident in Russian history... at least no others come to me, unless you consider 10 million dead for the sake of farm collectivization a terrorist incident.

As of today:

"North Ossetia's health minister Alexander Soplevenko said at least 340 people were dead, while his deputy Taimuraz Revazov said 324 fatalities were confirmed. The Interfax new agency quoted regional government spokesman Lev Dzugayev as saying the toll stood at 338, but he later said in televised comments that the number was 335.

The regional health ministry said 180 people were missing after the three-day hostage crisis, which began when armed attackers raided School No. 1 on Sept.1, the first day of classes, seizing students, teachers and parents attending opening-day ceremonies."

b
<><>Just be glad the terrorist attacks in the western world aren't so harsh. Well as of yet at least.

>>> Um, September 11th? Madrid?

Yes they are tragedies, but I do understand at least some of the thinking behind that; taking hundreds of kids hostage, especially knowing that many would most likely die, is especially harsh.  That's what I meant.  With most other bombings/attacks, they are done to make a point, or to take down as many people as possible, most commonly fairly indiscriminate targets [such as a crowded street, etc] targeting kids however was just plain terrible.  No justification in any possible way can be given to that.

And of course it is Russia's worst terrorist attack, because each time there's a major terrorist attack on them, more people die, and it gets worse everytime.

"With most other bombings/attacks, they are done to make a point, or to take down as many people as possible, most commonly fairly indiscriminate targets [such as a crowded street, etc] targeting kids however was just plain terrible. No justification in any possible way can be given to that."

*****  No justification in any possible way can be given for any of it.  It's all just plain terrible.  Even if you don't target kids specifically, you know you'll kill some and you also know you'll turn more into orphans.  I guess I see your point -- I just don't see much of a moral difference between the Chechens at that school and AQ on September 11th or in Madrid...  Actually I do - the Chechens had a goal other than killing in mind, they were trying to free some people.

This prose is some of the most accurate I've read in recent memory and it does apply to the topic at hand.
It resides at its very core.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As citizens of America, we must recognize that there is an ideological war, a political war, a financial war and a legal war all being waged against terrorism at different levels simultaneously.
They are all aspects of the same war.
Islamic fundamentalism, which leads to terrorism is a cancerous malignancy, a parasitic growth on the free world and it must be removed lest it consume its host. And because Islamic fundamentalism represents a global threat, the strategy required to deal with it will require global cooperation and coordination.

9/11 was a wake-up call for America. Europe still sleeps.

Just as the world was confronted with the challenge presented by German Nazism and Japanese militarism in World War II and was required to vanquish that enemy in order to remake those countries and set the stage for democracy, so we are now called to arms to ensure the survival and success of our way of life.

Let us remember that those who died on 9/11 and those who will die in future acts of terrorism have left us no choice but to distinguish clearly and resolutely between the forces of good and the forces of evil; between the Dark Ages and the Enlightenment; and to recognize that there is no option open to a free society other than victory.

This is not a Republican issue or a Democratic issue. It is a matter of survival. The West must recognize that this is a war and not simply a passing skirmish. And it must also recognize that if this war is not taken to this enemy, this enemy will bring the war to our cities, to our streets and to our homes because it perceives compromise, tolerance and the search for common ground as signs of weakness, vulnerability and Western decadence.

So the next time someone asks you if “it’s all worth it,” or “do you know how much this war is costing America,” or “why are we placing American lives in harm’s way,” you can respond with certainty - “There is no other choice.”

Mark Silverberg
Scranton, Pennsylvania
October 3, 2003
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go  HERE (http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/index.html) to read more articles from Mark Silverberg's archives.
(No...I am not Jewish...I am Christian...I just happen to agree with 99% of what this guy has to say)

Do you agree with what he's saying?
Any independent thoughts of your own to add?



Post Edited (09-07-04 04:27)

.......



Post Edited (09-07-04 14:59)

I recently read this:

"President Bush has asked top advisers to study how authorities would deal with a similar assault on an American school."

I must admit that this is an excellent idea on the part of the president.
Learning  from someone else's mistakes is always a wise choice.

Any ideas of what you think would happen if this were ever to take place in America?
If you were in charge, what would you have done?



Post Edited (09-11-04 05:56)