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These videos and the news of the beheadings of two Americans and one South Korean have been all over the news recently.

I have seen the videotaped execution of Nicholas Berg and just yesterday (6-23-04) I viewed the quick beheading of Kim Sung Il.
I have only seen the photos of Paul Johnson after he was decapitated in Saudi Arabia.  No video of that killing was ever released to my knowledge.  
I imagine that the VHS tape of it is locked away in a cabinet in an Iraqi terrorist's place of residence somewhere.

They are not very pleasant to watch...but since many of us have watched gory stuff on the movie or TV screen like "Dead Alive" I think you should be able to take it.
The lasting effect they have are the thoughts that will run through your mind about all of it and what it would be like to experience it for yourself as either one of the victims or one of the terrorists.
At least that's what I did, I tried to put myself into the shoes of each side and try to see it both ways.

Granted, they were all abominable events and I don't condone murder in any form. (and yes I do think those terrorists deserve to die for what they did to those men.)

I just couldn't help but think of every side of the issue.
I wondered if maybe one of those masked terrorists possibly felt a slight twinge of guilt and/or pity or empathy for the victim.
You know what I mean?  The terrorist or terrorists might think it in the back of their mind but they don't dare say anything.
They keep it within.

If you want to watch the videos, here are the links to them...they are on a rather, ahem, adult website so I would watch them at home.

Nicholas Berg video:  
http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/detail.asp?ID=34947&type=1&page=1&fav=0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kim Sung Il video:
http://www.consumptionjunction.com/content/detail.asp?ID=36037&type=1&page=1&fav=0

I just wanted to say that I hope I have not offended anybody by writing this Off Topic thread and by posting the links to the videos (and Andrew I hope I haven't p**sed you off by bringing this topic to your phorum)
It is not my intention to offend anybody.  These are real life events that we see and hear about on the news and I am looking for honest and mature opinions here.

I was wondering if any of you have seen the videos of these atrocities and what your opinions are of them.

What effect do you think these murders are having on the world population...especially in America?

Have you refused to watch the videos?
If so, why?

Let us know.



Post Edited (06-24-04 01:29)

I can't watch these videos. I do watch gory films. The thing is that like in Dead Alive you can watch the actors in other films in the future so the gore becomes funny. However these horendous acts of butchering and inhumane treaments I can't handle. I will get sick mabey cry for another lost of life. These terrorist will deserve what they get in the end. I hope they get it bad. This is coming from someone who doesn't really approve of the death sentence, but the fact that they video taped it and repeated to do this. They deserve the worst.

i watched  both the videos ash. i really dont know  why i did i just did. i think the videos just gives more power to the terroristes that they can take down america that we are "weak". i think that with each of these executions most americas get more and more dislillusioned with the war. i also have to agree with gecko they will get thiers in the end.

"I know I know ive been exposed permeant psychoses..
at least the colors are nice"- Aeon Flux

I've seen these vids before, they really just angered me and made me wish that those terrorists would get back what they did and worse. As stated above, some people may become dissillusioned by the war, but this does the opposite to me. I'm against the war yet seeing those people murdered for no reason, makes me want the war to pick up, I want these zealots blasted into dust.

I don't see a need in watching the  video, I have great empathy for other people's pain and it kills me to see real images of someone's suffering. It doesn't take something like that to give me more conviction one way or the other on terrorism or what have you. I think watching it just provides some deep seeded need to watch the grotesque. That's a real person, no violence i've ever been exposed to in gorey movies will desensitize me enuff to be able to view images of someones last moments alive. i'm still traumatized from having seen 9-11 on television and all those people die. All it does it sadden and disgust me...because I can so easily put myself in the shoes of those in their last moments. I wouldn't want my death televised for someone elses viewing pleasure...for any reason. the fact those video's are circulating is repulsive, i hope to god those families of the victims never run across them - can you imagine if that was your father or brother? Their life would be forever marred by the memory of their horrible death, particularly if you had to see it.



Post Edited (06-24-04 06:37)

I can agree with Susan almost word for word on this. I'm a grown man but when I saw the horror those maniacs caused on 9/11/2001, I cried. All the sensless tragedy that was caused to innocent people and their families, it is indescribable how I felt and still do. My opinion on this topic? I believe there is something wrong with someone that can watch these videos and look at them from the terrorist point of view. This isn't make believe movies we are discussing here...this is real life.

The bit I saw on the news was quite enough for me. The Nick Berg thing really disturbed me. The terrorists are nothing but cowards, or they wouldn't  resort to this kind of thing.  You will notice that the leaders are never the ones  "sacrificing " themselves , this is reserved for the young people they have brainwashed from  youth to hate the West.

I haven't really seen it analysed this way, but the Islamic groups are really just cults of violence. I known many Muslims in my life and I know this crap is not a part of their religion, just like the Aryan Nation is not a part of Christianity  even though they too think they are doing God's work .

yesterday i read at the newspaper that this korean guy was decapitated, then i saw his  father and mother crying, and i got really really sad, and undone  i was about to cry, it made me feel the same pain that i felt when all those people died in my country at the train terrorist attack . juts two days before i watched on tv this guy crying and begging for his life. now he is dead.
im  a resident dr, i have done lots of anatomic practices with corpses , and tho   i have been doing this for a long time still its difficult for me to keep doing it, still its hard to see how somebody dies for some desease or just for an accident, so i cant  imagine myself watching someboy killed on tv, i  could never stand it.
i hate this ward, all the pain  and hate that it s bringing , its just horrible. i wont watch this videos, i totally agree with susan and odinn7.



Post Edited (06-24-04 15:57)

Just because we watch a lot of gory movies doesn't mean we can stomach these videos. The only reason I can watch gory movies is because they're not real, it's just a bunch of actors and special effects. Unlike Evil Dead those are real people dying and when I see that happening it feels like I've been shot through the heart. I hope they pay for this.

odinn7 wrote:


> My opinion on this topic? I believe there is
> something wrong with someone that can watch these videos and
> look at them from the terrorist point of view. This isn't make
> believe movies we are discussing here...this is real life.

since i was one of the few people on this topic who saw the videos, i hope your not talking about me. i live in NYC so i know first hand what happen on 9/11 as well as my mother working for NYPD and me being a police cadet for NYPD. i apologize if you werent talking about me odinn7 it just that  i did sort of write like i was seeing it from thier point of view but i really wasnt. i was just looking at the impact it would have on american society. again iam sorry if you arent talking about me.

"I know I know ive been exposed permeant psychoses..
at least the colors are nice"- Aeon Flux

Don't sweat it Rich, it was clear to me what you meant in your post...I wasn't referring to you in mine. I know you are in NY and the impact 9/11 must have had on you is unimaginable to me.

I've seen some of the photos, and they were enough.

And from an Aussie newspaper column (via Andrew Sullivan):
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9893010%255E25717,00.html

" I can't guarantee the interview is accurate or even genuine. . .

 Al-Nashami says he and his "brothers" shot their way into an oil company compound, where, as police confirm, they killed a British worker and tied his body to their car.
He says they drove on until "the infidel's clothing was torn to shreds and he was naked in the street . . . and everyone watched the infidel being dragged, praise and gratitude be to Allah."
The terrorists then stormed a second compound, and found an "American infidel".
"I shot him in the head, and his head exploded. We entered another office and found one infidel from South Africa, and our brother Hussein slit his throat. We asked Allah to accept (these pious acts) from us, and from him." "

In my opinion, these men should be drug into the streets and quartered.  Then treated and kept alive untill they were strong enough to have other thing done and not die from them.  (For those of you who do not know, quartering is having your arms and legs tied up and each tied to a horse, or car it would be now, well use your imagination.) So if you cannot see what I am getting at, simple death is to good for these monsters. Torture sounds just about right, and I would gladly be the one doing it.

I don't know...maybe I've been exposed to too much violence in the media and on TV.

Watching the videos didn't really phase me all that much.
Like I said before, it was mostly the thoughts of all parties involved in those murders that went through my mind.
The afterthoughts are what got to me.

And yes Susan, I and others out there do have a sort of morbid curiosity that drives us to watch videos like these.
I was horrified and fascinated at the same time.
That sounds bad I know, but it's the truth and it doesn't make me or any others bad people.



Post Edited (06-24-04 16:53)

Ash, I've probably seen more violent movies in my lifetime than you but I don't think that necessarily determines whether or not a person is desensitized to real life violence. I can watch movies with heads being lopped off, because it's in the context of fantasy (altho some movies where it borders on the realistic feel i can become really shocked)

When i see an image of someone's suffering or death it's impossible for me to be indifferent to it, i always see them as a person. someone who was once a little kid that clutched his mom and stood on their dad's shoes. Someone who never imagined they'd grow up and die as brutally or suddenly as they do, I just don't understand the curiosity in seeing the moment that was stripped away from them.  
I hope to god i never reach a point where i'm unphased by suffering or death.



Post Edited (06-24-04 17:29)

I watched the Nick Berg video the same week it happened. I've seen other similar videos in the past. The fact that most people find watching these videos shocking and disturbing is precisely the reason I think people should see them. It's one thing to hear that terrorists chopped someone's head off and another thing to watch it happen. It demonstrates better than anything esle, what dangerous, barbaric psychos these animals are.

>I wondered if maybe one of those masked terrorists possibly felt a slight twinge
>of guilt and/or pity or empathy for the victim.

I doubt it. Probably the only regret they felt was that they could only do it to a single foreigner rather than all of them.

>i think that with each of these executions most americas get more and more
>dislillusioned with the war.

I'd have guessed that the opposite was true, that with every execution, Americans have less and less sympathy for the middle east. I think if they keep up the executions and the bombings, they're eventually going to provoke a war between the rest of the world and the middle east. Maybe that's what they want. It's hard to imagine that anyone could believe that broadcasting video of brutal murders would convince people to give them what they want. It's much more likely to strengthen the resolve to hunt them down and exterminate them.

>In my opinion, these men should be drug into the streets and quartered.

Forget quartering, it's too lenient. Do a search for the phrase "broken on the wheel".

Speaking of disturbing video. On Joe Scarbarough(definite right winger guy) he interview a man that was in Iraq. They showed torture videos from Sadam's prison. Which reminds me of an interview with one Sadam's mistress. She was forced to do him *shudder* She said that after they did have sex *shudder* he would watch his victims die, beaten or raped. So even though what the soldiers did was wrong, he did worst. Apparently in Iraq you can buy these videos for a quarter.

I feel no need to ever watch them. I can't believe they are even posted on the internet like spectacles which is even more disgusting and disturbing. I couldn't imagine the torture the prisoners they had went through. I don't feel any need whatsoever to watch another human being die viciously. All they are are videos to strike fear into people. One thing that angers me a lot is the fact that the Iraqi prisoner abuse gets more attention than these horrific murders. Those prisoners are in there for a reason- they aren't innocent people. Nobody is getting their head cut off viciously either so it's pretty pathetic to even compare that nonsense to this which is what I seem to see a lot.

Ive seen these videos and after viewing them I belive we should just nuke the whole damn middle east. The middle east is a big cancer on the face of this planet and no matter what any of the worlds countrys have tried, the situation in the middle east has just gotten worse.Do these ass holes think that we are just going to be intimidated and leave? f**k NO! Wake up you terroist f**ks the longer you keep driving truck bombs into buildings and killing innocent people the longer we are going to stay in Iraq.
OH, but what p**ses me off the most is that are pathitic, politically correct, libral media cares more about some abuse in a Iraq prison than the brutal killings of three innocent people.
Maybe god will grant my prayers one day and land a big f**king asteroid right into are planet.

u must be joking, right?

StatCat wrote:

>  Those prisoners are
> in there for a reason- they aren't innocent people. Nobody is
> getting their head cut off viciously either so it's pretty
> pathetic to even compare that nonsense to this which is what I
> seem to see a lot.
>

AMEN!!!!

Hey, i'm russian. I saw what those f**kers did to your people(i mean americans)----------usual thing. I've been seeing this s**t for about 6 years. You can find videos in the net where chechen-allah- bastards cut throuts of russian soldiers. We had 2 chechen wars in the 90s and i've seen a lot of these stuff: crucifying videos,torture videos and all this allah ackbar s**t. And practicaly all them were of a great quality.
So what can i say. The story's repeated. Damn.........

Wyckednyck, you are a reactionist idiot.

What about the millions of good, honest, friendly people in the Middle East?  I happen to know a few of said people, and I'm sure they would take offense to you saying that their homes should be nuked.  Collateral damage is something that should be taken into account in any war.  Also:

"Granted, they were all abominable events and I don't condone murder in any form. (and yes I do think those terrorists deserve to die for what they did to those men.)"

...This doesn't strike you as even the least bit hypocritical?

After viewing the vidoes it just reinforces my thoughts that these people are never going to change.  They are a bunch of damn lunatics.  I say, get the hell out of there and let them all kill each other..........

I rather doubt the terrorists felt any sort of guilt. Why should they? They are in a hopeless war against enemy they can't really hurt, why should they bother with seeing one of the enemy as a real person? If you were defending your home (I have no doubt they see it that way, although from our perspective they are despicable terrorists), would you consider the feelings of someone who was trying to destroy it? Or would you do your best to dispose of him, preferably in such a way as to deter any others who might want to follow him? The means (decapitation) might seem unbearably cruel to us, but it isn't really any different from e.g. shooting or electrocuting. It's just that we see more of the latter than of the former.

Now we are getting to the question of why I am posting anonymously: There are quite a few unreasoning people all over the net, including this board, who would happily attack me for "defending the swine", despite the fact that I am simply trying to be objective about the issue. I don't feel the need to get a mailbox full of hatemail just because I prefer reasoning to emotions. If someone wants to discuss things in cold head, I am all for it.

A few comments to some of the posts:

- Gecko Brothers: Do you really think that a  videotaped killing is any worse than hidden one? It's all the same to the victim, the only difference is the effect on others. I for one think showing the decapitations is stupid because the opponents MUST reply with more force, but I don't think it's any more immoral than any other killing.

- Fluffy Catfood: I should think that years of perceived (not necessarily real, people aren't rational) aggression against yourself would be reason enough.

- Odinn7: I think something is seriously wrong when an attempt to get to the core of any issue is viewed as something bad. No matter what issue. Jumping to quick and easy solutions tends to cause the worst harm.

- Trek Geezer: What makes you think the executions are cowardly? You can hardly expect the terrorists to walk into Washington, D.C., and solve their issues directly with their "source". If they have no chance to do that, obviously they have to make use of targets they can reach. The poor dead guys had the misfortune to be in the wrong place in the wrong time.

- Acidburn: Yeah, I am sure that's a masterful summation of what the terrorists feel.

- StatCat: If somebody claims to be fighting for some ideals, he should not violate them. That's what's wrong with american soldiers torturing the prisoners, not the fact itself (I can easily imagine that someone might want to extract some revenge from a murderer of his close friend)

- Wyckednick: Nuking a whole region is surely much more moral than bombing a building, reason being, THEY deserve it while WE don't. No need to bother with innocent people, if they live there, they can't be innocent. Right? Maybe we should destroy the whole Earth, that should solve all crimes...

Do not get me wrong, I believe that the 1st amendment gives you the right to say whatever you wish.  It just so happens that you are wrong.  
Anyone here, myself included,  would protect our home to any extent necessary.  The only problem with that argument is that we are not out in the streets killing anyone we come across just for the heck of it.  We do not do things that  openly invite a force to come and and put a stop to the MASSIVE lose of life.  I have seen estimates that Saddam had over the past  10 years killed over  a million people.  1,000,000 PEOPLE!!!!!!   And the men that you see in this video were some of the men who carried out his orders.
 How can you sit back and say 'Well, they got what was coming to them, they should not have stuck there nose where it does not belong."   If I was walking down the street and saw someone being beaten or stabbed ar whatever, I would do anything in my power to try and help that person.  (And I have before)  
I do not understand the mentality of this country, they want  freedom but do not want to have to pay for that freedom.  An HONOR such as freedom is not FREE....it comes at a high cost, hundreds of throusands of american lives have been given so that you can say what you want to say.  Do not disrespect  those Valiant men and women, who did give their lives by not wanting to continue to fight for the beliefs that they died for.  
Sorry for the rant.  :)

I'm really sorry anonymous that I can't be objective about cold blooded murder, no matter who is commiting it.  Any act of hostage taking is cowardly, and should be condemned loudly , not only by those related to the victim by nationality or blood, but also by those who are tarnished by these acts which they had nothing  to do with.  In other words Muslims who do not agree with these  tactics should be very loud in condemning them.  

The people who do these things have had  it pounded into them since youth that we are the great Satan, and our lives do not matter (that's called objectifying by the way).  Islam doesn't teach this. This is nothing but the religion of hate and hate does nothing but breed more hate.

No amount of intellectualizing can provide any understanding or excuse for this kind of behaviour.

Anonymous, you sound like a sympathizer to me.



Post Edited (07-06-04 12:05)

Odinn7:
- Well, I am not. It's simply that:
1) I don't have enough information to say who's right and who's wrong. Perhaps all concerned are wrong (or right, from a different perspective).
2) I don't believe everything that is said, just because "everybody says that"
3) I can imagine situations where I might feel the same way as the terrorists (or freedom fighters, that's the same thing from an opposite perspective). I wouldn't walk around killing people, if for no other reason then because I don't believe there is anything (short of protecting one's own family) worth dying/killing for, but I can understand that mentally unstable people might decide to do otherwise.

Trek_Geezer:
- Any killing is wrong. If it is committed by terrorists, common murderers or governments doesn't really matter - the end result is the same for the victim.
- I strongly dislike the hypocrisy that leads us to condemn somebody for doing essentially the same thing we are doing ourselves.
- I am not trying to _excuse_ the murders, but to _explain_ them. There's a world of difference here, though it's rather common that people don't see it that way.

AcidBurn:
- We aren't doing those things, granted. The question is - would we not do them if we had our most hated enemies occupying our country?
- The biggest problem is that our beliefs are not necessarily those of others. We might sincerely believe we are giving them freedom, happiness, future. In reality, we are often wrong. I don't know about you, but I have been to quite a few different countries and met many people who are pitiful by our standards, but in their own way they live a happy life and don't need any of our "help".
- I seriously don't understand why should I change my beliefs just because somebody in the past died for his. What's done is done. We have to adapt to new conditions.

Not having things in regards to poverty is a completly different story.  These peopel are being helped in many different ways.  There is always charities that take up money to help feed said people.  
Now, that being said the people that we are liberating(sp) are not poor because the country does not have enough income to provide for them. They are poor because they were under the rule of a man that would rather kill them and thier entire family rather than help them.  
There are videos where Saddams son placed a soccer player in an IRON MADEN because he did not stop the other team from scoring.  And Saddam himself has lined people up and cut their toungs out because he heard they said something that he did not like.  People arms were chopped off because they bumped into on of his officers in a crowded market.

Now does this sound like a country that does not need help.  These people are so afraid they cannot walk outside for fear of being shot.

NOW LETS NOT FORGET  WHY  THIS WHOLE THING STARTED!!!!

We went into this country (along with members of the UN) because it was believed that Saddam did not live up to a agreement with the UN to dismember and destroy any and ALL weapons of mass destruction.  But once we were in there we saw how the people were being treated, and decided to act.   Along with a majority of the UN.  Now  of course you will always have people like the French, who would always say 'Yes they are wrong' but then when the time comes to act, they change their mind and decide to let everyone else handle it.  

Now all that being said there is no way that  I could behead someone just because he worked for someone that I did not like.  Lets not forget two of these men who were killed were not even in the military.  They were civillians!!!!!!!!   There trying to help rebuild the city.  They were killed for the simple fact that they came from the United States.   They were not there trying to kill anyone or dislodge this terrorist group. They were there helping rebuild the schools and homes that were distroyed.  
HOW CAN YOU SAY 'I CAN SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM'!!!!

You seem to be talking about a different UN. As far as I remember, almost everyone there was against attacking Iraq given the state of "proofs" back then.

As for the murdered: Exactly. They were killed because they came from "enemy countries". Yes, it is stupid, and I hate the fact, but that's how it is - if you are a member of a group, nobody cares whether you did or didn't want to be! You are one with the enemy, you will be punished for that. As simple as that. That's how most people think, the idiots :-(. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

How "can I see where they are coming from?" Easy. Just imagine that you want to hurt some country, for some reason (I can't imagine any such reason for myself, but I do realize that somebody else might have such a reason). But you can't. In such a case, it does make some sense to hurt something/somebody that's related to that country and reachable for you. It is unfair to those you hurt, sure enough, but it is as close as you can get to your goal. That's why people do it, even though it is stupid in the long run. Sad but true.

Regarding your "liberation argument": Are you sure there would be as much willingness to do so if their country wasn't so rich in resources we want? I mean, I don't see anybody liberating North Korea or Zimbabwe... (And that's assuming those people actually want to be liberated in the sense we mean it - I assume they do, but I would not bet any money on them wanting to be liberated by the USA)

"you seem to be talking about a different UN. As far as I remember, almost everyone there was against attacking Iraq given the state of "proofs" back then."

i was about to say the same, the UN was againts the irak invasion, and its a well known fact.

They were against the INVASION of Iraq, but they were all for going in and looking for the weapons.  When any proof was found (like the canisters of whatever gas it was) they always seemed to look away and say "well they must have just forgot about them" .   We decided NOT to look away .  
I suppose you did not see the footage of the people celebrating the fact that the dictatorship(sp)  fell.  They knocked over statues and rip down posters.  They were HAPPY to be free.  The people who are doing these things we are speaking of  are the same people that help POWER  and now that is gone.  They are just trying to scare us into leaving so they can establish that again.  

As far as them wanting to just hurt something from that country....really think about what you said.  THEY want to hurt US.  Now try and explain why.  They killed over 3000 of our people on 911.  What would you suggest we just sit back and let them do whatever they want and think that we will not do anything but slap them on the wrist and say 'Now dont do that again.'   I just cannot see how anyone can say that they are just reacting to us being there.  
No MORAL person would do such a thing.  They are fanatics, and the only reason they do not like us is because we are a mostly christian country.  They have never liked us and I think it is time that we set their asses straight.  I personally do not care what they think or do, but when it comes to the point that I am scared to take my family to Disney world during a holiday because the news people say watch out for attacks, it is time to do something.

Acidburn wrote:

"HOW CAN YOU SAY 'I CAN SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM'!!!!"

Ok...I just want to say first off that I'm not taking any sides here.  I previously stated that I do try to look at it from both perspectives so I completely understand where Anonymous is coming from.

Anyway, I think the whole "looking at it from both sides" issue can be a little easier understood by watching the movie "The Beast" (1988) which was directed by Kevin Reynolds.

Here is the plot summary for it:

"Afghanistan, 1981, and the Soviet Union are locked in a futile and bloody battle with the Mujahedeen. Separated from their patrol after a vicious attack on an Afghani village, a T-62 tank engages in a deadly game of cat and mouse with the local mujahed, led by the Afghan Taj. The tyrannical and increasingly unstable tank commander Daskal pushes the moral boundaries of the tank driver Constantine Koverchenko to the limits, with almost dire consequences. Sensing a mutiny, Daskal abandons Koverchenko to die in the desert at the hand of the Afghans, only to find that he's sealed his own fate."
I want to add that Koverchenko eventually joins the Afghan rebels to fight against his former commander.  A part that I do find somewhat hard to believe but it does help you to see the conflict from both sides.

Go here to Amazon.com to read the great reviews of it:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6302875153/103-3319025-1031008?v=glance&vi=customer-reviews

Here's the link for the trailer:
http://videodetective.com/home.asp?PublishedID=800

You must click on the small tab to the left on that page that says, "Watch Video".
I only mention it because the tab's easy to miss.

Go rent and watch that film then let me know.

(http://www.sendit.com/img/video/cover_big/front-sorted/7000000/06/76/90.jpg)

Acidburn:
- We say: "They did this and that to us, it's right for us to defend ourselves." They say essentially the same thing. Revenge will only lead us to a spiral of violence, but certainly not a solution. I mean, after 911 was pretty much the whole world with US. Today, the world is pretty much united against US. Guess why.
- No question that people who take their religion too seriously are dangerous to just about everyone around them. It doesn't matter which religion that is.

Ashthecat:
- Exactly. Same with me. I am trying to understand BEFORE I take any sides. Something is wrong when that is interpretted as advocating the violence.

Anonymous,
I am not trying to imply that you are wrong with what you are saying.   If I came of in that way and offended anyone I am sorry.   I just do not like that fact that some peopel ( I know you are not one of them as you said earlier) do not think that these people are doing anything wrong.  
Trying to look at it from both sides I simply cannot, I grew up in a family that showed me love and acceptance.  I simply cannot place myself in a situation that I would kill someone because they knew someone else or are a part of a club that was trying to help me out in some way.  I may not even agree with the way they are doing it, but I would be able to tell that they  mean well.  I might even possibly try and speak with them about it  and perhaps work something out.  
But I could not do what they are doing.

You don't have to explain anything to me. I understand what you are trying to say  about their motives.  And as far as I know  the US mililtary doesn't go around selecting people , kidnapping them and then murdering them in a public forum.  Unfortunately warfare can't be carried on free of  innocents being killed., but to equate that with what these terrorists do is outright stupidity.  

I have often times thought  our leaders in Iraq and in Washington have been asleep at the wheel with what's going on there.  We need to stabilize the situation and not make it worse, and then get our folks out of there.  Whether Iraq stays free and becomes democratic is ultimately up to the Iraqis.  

I can understand some of these peoples motives, but that is no excuse for  what they do and comparing the US to them is sheer stupidity.  This is the end of me being civil with you about this, because it's evident you have your head up your ass.

Acidburn:
- I couldn't either. I am merely saying that I can imagine why weak/stupid/unstable/whatever people could. That's what my argument is all about.
- I don't want to underestimate you, but in many cases it is VERY difficult to "be able to tell that they mean well". Given just the right amount of biased information, the "help" can be easily changed into "abuse". In Iraq, many would argue that the invasion was more about oil than about everything else. I personally think that's too paranoid a view, but it is a possibility. Add just a little prejudice and voila, here goes the goodwill.

Trek_Geezer:
- "And as far as I know the US mililtary doesn't go around selecting people , kidnapping them and then murdering them in a public forum" -  One could argue that, e.g. given the status of Guantanamo prisoners (who might all be terrorists, or might not, we don't know and won't know until they are tried in an impartial court). And again, I must stress that if you are kidnapped on the street and murdered by terrorists, the result for you is the same as being hit by a trigger-happy soldier or a misfired missile: you are dead. The good/bad motives of the guilty parties are rather irrelevant.
- I couldn't agree more with the second paragraph

I just dont see how simple human morals can be just stripped away like that.  But seeing as how they are raised from birth to hate us and kill us.  They do not know any better.  But when you get to be an adult, would you not be able to see that what you are doing is wrong?   Or atleast have some remorse for killing someone in such a fashion.

Acidburn wrote:

> I just dont see how simple human morals can be just stripped
> away like that.  But seeing as how they are raised from birth
> to hate us and kill us.  They do not know any better.  But when
> you get to be an adult, would you not be able to see that what
> you are doing is wrong?   Or atleast have some remorse for
> killing someone in such a fashion.

You must understand that the insurgents have a completely different mindset than regular Iraqi's and Americans.
Yes, human morals can be stripped away just like that.
These followers of Zarquari and others are in it to the end.
They think that they're in the fight of their lives.
It's sad too because if they weren't raised to hate Americans, they could've become 'good' people.
Remember that 'good' is an objective term that can be looked at differently from both sides.

Acidburn: Well, I am afraid the answer is "no". Unfortunatelly. Lifelong beliefs can be most devastating, just as blind adherence to a given truth (which is why I question everything), and they seem to be almost impossible to change once set.

>1) I don't have enough information to say who's right and who's wrong. Perhaps
>all concerned are wrong (or right, from a different perspective).

Us - We attack governments and the military that serves those governments. Although abuses and accidents DO occur, the US goes out of its way not to kill civilians.

Them - They go out of their way to kill civilians. If you were to give one of these groups a briefcase sized nuclear weapon and a way to sneak it into the US, they would be peeing their pants with joy at the thought of detonating it in the middle of Disneyworld on the busiest day of the year. Unless of course, they used it to destroy Washington D.C.

Yeah, it's real hard to tell who the bad guys are...

>We aren't doing those things, granted. The question is - would we not do them if
>we had our most hated enemies occupying our country?

We would be attacking the military, not the civilians. Some civilians might get hurt in the attacks, but I doubt we would specifically target them.

>I mean, after 911 was pretty much the whole world with US. Today, the world is
>pretty much united against US. Guess why.

Mostly because the US actually ACTED rather than sitting on its butt and throwing harsh words at the people that did this. Don't get me wrong, I think George Dubya screwed up royally, but I feel something had to be done. The Arab countries claimed that they were shocked at waht happened on 9/11, but I don't see them shutting down terrorist training camps and rounding up Al Quaida members. In fact, when the US attacked the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, a lot of them fled over the border into countries tthey knew wouldn't do anything to them. Everyone seemed to agree that Saddam was a horrible dictator, but I don't see as anyone else did anything about it. Now the Iraqi people want the US and other troops out of their country. If that were done today, how long do you think it would be before the fanatics were back in power, the current leaders of Iraq dead, and the people even worse off than they were under Saddam?

>I am trying to understand BEFORE I take any sides.

What's to understand? They're animals who think murdering some innocent person and showing off that killing on the internet is going to get results. It's not, it's only going to make people hate them even more and make governments want to hunt them down and kill them. The only thing to wonder about is how monumentally stupid these idiots are.

>One could argue that, e.g. given the status of Guantanamo prisoners (who might
>all be terrorists, or might not, we don't know and won't know until they are tried in
>an impartial court).

First off, let me state that I do NOT agree with holding people prisoner with no right to a trial or to see a lawyer. I applaud the supreme court decision that these people deserve to have their say in court.

Now, having said that, if you had to choose, would you rather be a prisoner accused of terrorist in Guantanamo, or a civilian kidnapped by fanatics in Iraq?

JohnL:
- As for attacking civilians: That's hardly a distinction between the good guys and the bad guys. I am not quite sure someone who works for an occupying power is a civilian, either.

- As for who would we attack: That's your belief. Mine is different. We can only hope we will never find out.

- As for the loss of popularity after 911: Yes, that's a possible explanation. I don't think the US are blameless in this matter, though.

- We seem to agree that those terrorist attacks are stupid in the extreme.

- Regarding your last question: I don't know. I don't know when (if) the prisoners are tried - and until they do, the difference is rather academic (I think I would prefer death to a lifetime virtual slavery, but that's speaking from the safety of my home; I have no idea which would be preferable in reality). I just know that there's a much better chance I will be scooped up by US authorities because I am in the wrong place at the wrong time than a chance I'll be captured by terrorists.

Ok...

Having just completed a course on Terrorism at Uni [no, not how to be a terrorist, it was a history subject] I have to make a few points as to stop this continuing cycle of accusations and blame.   I don't like terrorists or terrorism, I don't agree with their methods, but I can see why they do it.  I am extremely frustrated with the way the US have handled their affairs, yet I also see the good they are trying to do in Iraq.  People need to stop blaming each other and acting emotionally and start trying to solve the problems with rational thoughts and reasons.  The cycle of violence has two sides, those who start it, and those who hit back.  So here are a few points I will try to make.  Arguing about it isn't going to stop it:

1.  First off, to all those saying ''why don't the terrorist leaders die for their cause?''

Think about this for a second: without leadership there is no organisation, and without organisation there is no success rate.  It's just impractical to have all your leaders die in the middle of a 'war'.  

The 'terrorist' group in South Africa, Umkhonto we Siszwe suffered exactly that problem when their leaders [including Nelson Mandela] were arrested and imprisoned in the 60's.  The attacks dropped off for almost a decade until they reorganised.  That reason is quite sensible: Just because you say you will die for a cause doesn't mean that you have to.  It just means you have no problem if it has to be that way.

2.  Yes people were happy that Saddam was gone, and it is no contest that the liberation was justified. But there a plenty more who hate the US for 'occupying Iraq.'  Now that the US forces are in their, they have to stay and stabilise the region, but that's not how it is seen by all Iraqis.  Yes there were celebrations, but there have been much, much more protests about ongoing US occupation.

3.  I'm assuming that most of you are from western societies.  For the most part, what everyone needs to realise is that we are dealing with a very different culture over there.   Kids aren't raised just the same as us.  To apply our values to a culture that doesn't necessarily agree with those values is very stupid indeed.  There's a thing called objectivity that you need to remember.  The right way to go with things will become clear in the end after you deal with ALL the facts, not just the news that you see on TV.

In the Middle East it is a much more brutal culture than ours as westerners, so it's with no stretch of the imagination that you can see why death is so much easier to carry out in the Middle East than in western society.

4.  We are not dealing with a conventional war.  The insurgents and terrorists take civilian prisoners and kill civilians because it is much easier to attack them than the military.  Because there is no way they can beat the US in open conflict, their backs are to the wall.  The reason why they would love a bomb to go off in Disneyworld is simply because that would do so much more damage to America than a single attack on a military target, and it would probably be much easier too.  It's just a tactic to a group that is actively engaging in a war they know that they are losing.

5.  What makes 'us' better than 'them' is the fact that we don't kill our prisoners, we all understand that.  But someone asked me this recently:  Would you torture somebody who knew the location of a bomb that was due to go off in a city in your country, and was going to cause alot of deaths: would you go that far to stop this threat?

People can sit around saying that violence is bad and all that, but the majority of people would resort to torture to extract the information required to save the lives of those threatened by this bomb.  It is an ethical grey area that is going to be crossed by both sides.

6.  The US have kept the prisoners at Guantanamo for almost two years without trial.  Recent events are gradually changing this, but what of the media blanket over the area?  If we aren't allowed to see what is going on, one must logically assume that alot of it isn't exactly humane.  That and the events in Abu Garib [or whatever the name was] point to the fact that we aren't exactly clean in the moral area.

Now because terrorists aren't a government group [they may have support from countries, but they aren't a country themselves] they don't have the luxury of being able to simply keep people in a prison.  If they captured people they thought could be classed as the enemy, such as 'enemy country' civilians how is that any different?  I'm not talking about beheading and execution, just capture.

It would be hard to treat American prisoners humanely when you can barely live yourselves [being driven underground isn't exactly classy living]


Now for my closing points, I would like to tell you all a few theories [from scholars] about terrorism:

*some acts are committed deliberately to get a harsh response, in order to rally public support: case in point, 9/11: the US has a knee jerk reaction and soon develops a bad rep within the 'oppressed' culture.  Thus people willing to fight are recruited.

*there is no end to a war on terror, especially one that has religion at the heart of it: if you keep fighting, you may crush an immediate threat eventually, but you won't eliminate the threat.  The defeated will just grow more and more angry, and a new threat will pop up in it's place.  Violence begets violence.


I don't condone terrorism, I don't like the fact that it exists, and their methods, but it doesn't mean I don't understand why they do it.  The US made the wrong move by going into Iraq the way they did.  Yes the fact that the Iraqis were oppressed is a good cause, but if anybody cares to remember, we were worrying about WMDs: that was the main reason, we wanted to protect our own butts more than liberation: it's only after that excuse came up as a bust that our governments tell 'remind' us about the oppressive Hussein regime.  The UN would have supported the US if the weapons inspectors came up with proof [and I don't mean just a few empty canisters] but since that didn't happen, to go to war claiming that there was an extreme threat of WMDs was just stupid.  I don't support the war in Iraq, but I do think that now we are in there, we should stay until we have fixed the country up after we took away their government.

Nobody is clean when it comes to civilian deaths: just look at some of the atrocities in Vietnam.  Also, the fact that the US was responsible for more civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan than in 9/11.  Yes these were accidental, but it doesn't change the fact that they were committed.

We are stuck in an impossible situation in a debate that can never end: we cannot let the terrorists take over, but we also can't strike back just as harshly.  There were simply too many other avenues open to us instead of out and out war.  

So let's not get sucked into propaganda given to us by the media, and let's look at things with a bit of intelligence, and maybe somebody can come up with a better idea than just 'kill the Arabs'.

Sorry guys and gals, but I'm just sick to death of people arguing over this.  I'm also sick of people b***hing about 'ignorant americans' and constantly getting proven right by some of the things said in this topic.  

It's almost 2 in the morning here, I'm tired after a road trip and very cranky, I'm in no mood to put up with some of the 'patriotic' bulls**t that seems to just be recycled from the American media, and does nothing to fix the situation.

So hopefully i made a little sense there, and got through to a few people.

well, im glad u wrote it , all u said was very interesting to me.

Dead: I couldn't have said that better. I agree with everything you wrote.

i hate that the left wing media bombards us with the photos of iraqi prisoners being hazed but don't show something as shocking as an american beheading. people should be able to see the beheadings just as well as they should see the hazing. it sucks to know that there are still americans running around that don't even know about the beheadings.

>Now that the US forces are in their, they have to stay and stabilise the region, but
>that's not how it is seen by all Iraqis. Yes there were celebrations, but there have
>been much, much more protests about ongoing US occupation.

And if the US were to pull out and the fanatics seize power, the Iraqis would be crying "Why did the US leave us at the mercy of these monsters? Why didn't they protect us?" Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

>In the Middle East it is a much more brutal culture than ours as westerners, so it's
>with no stretch of the imagination that you can see why death is so much easier
>to carry out in the Middle East than in western society.

And apparently they like it that way, since any attempt to raise their educational level or improve their standard of living is seen as meddling and as the west trying to dilute their culture and poison their youth with immoral values. :(

>The reason why they would love a bomb to go off in Disneyworld is simply
>because that would do so much more damage to America than a single attack
>on a military target, and it would probably be much easier too. It's just a tactic to
>a group that is actively engaging in a war they know that they are losing.

And it would destroy pretty much any sympathy their group has with other countries. If they think the current occupation of Iraq is bad, they wouldn't have seen anything yet.

>People can sit around saying that violence is bad and all that, but the majority of
>people would resort to torture to extract the information required to save the lives
>of those threatened by this bomb. It is an ethical grey area that is going to be
>crossed by both sides.

Several years ago, I saw a program on soldiers in the field and the subject of torturing a prisoner came up. The soldier they talked to (not sure of his rank) said that if it was an emergency and the information was needed to save lives, he would reluctantly resort to something like shooting a prisoner in the leg. However he also said that he would never condone something like taking the prisoner back to base and torturing him for hours just to fish for information he might have.

>there is no end to a war on terror, especially one that has religion at the heart of
>it: if you keep fighting, you may crush an immediate threat eventually, but you
>won't eliminate the threat. The defeated will just grow more and more angry, and
>a new threat will pop up in it's place. Violence begets violence.

There is if you completely eliminate the enemy and their culture. Harsh I know, but realistic.

>maybe somebody can come up with a better idea than just 'kill the Arabs'

I can, but I'm sure people wouldn't like it any better; Quarantine the middle east. Nobody allowed in or out. Trade negotiations would be by phone or at meeting points at the borders. If they want complete freedom from the west's influence, I say we give it to them. Of course this also means no humanitarian aid, no financial aid etc. Let's give them exactly what they want and see how long to takes the entire region to descend into chaos.

Post Edited (07-10-04 21:57)

I really have a problem with people taking shots at Americans who express their personal feeling towards a group whose publicly  stated purpose is to destroy us and our way of life.

I don't hate Arabs, but I don't feel much empathy towards what I consider cults within Islam who seem to feel nothing but hatred toward  western culture in general.
I know that they don't represent the  feelings of the great majority of  Isam.

Truth be told, most  people around the world want the same things. to be able to have their own beliefs,  a job so that can take care of their families, and hopefully provide a better life for their children. This is same in the US as it is in Iraq or anywhere else.

The US gets bashed about things like the embargo against Iraq.  Wouldn't you get  tired of  being critized when your country has the highest level of charitable giving in the world. provides the highest level of foreign aid in the world, and has saved the asses of so many other countries.

When there is some kind of natural disaster anywhere in the world, who are the first people to go help? The US.  But, when there is a great disaster here, who the hell offers us any help?  Oh yea, we have all the money so we don't need any moral support from people we consider our "friends" in the world.  

There are cemetaries around the world filled with Americans who died providing  freedom for people  who now turn on us every  time we slip up.

 Iraq was a mistake and not the last one we will make. We are human.  What we need to do now is work toward the best outcome we can.  

Here is a litlle quote for  you :

"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. " - H.G. Wells

Post Edited (07-10-04 21:58)

maria paula wrote:

 

Now isn't this being a little hypocritical, in the above paragraph you are basically saying  the US has killed 1.4 million Iraqi children, that we are responsible for all their poverty. In your next post you are praising us for our humanitarianism. Which is it, are we good or bad?

The sanctions against Iraq were put in place by the United Nations, not the US acting unilaterally.  

The UN also had an oil for food program setup with Iraq and some 65 billion dollars were raised ,  the last  8.1 billion were transferred to the Developement Fund for Iraq over the last year. But now there is scandal over this program, because evidentl;y Saddam was skimming money from the fund into his personal account and bribing UN officials to get help buypolitical influence and to get items smuggled into the county in violation of the UN sanctions. There are officials from many countries (including the US) under investigation for taking part in this scheme.    Read about here: Oil for Food Scandal (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/oil_for_food_ripoff_040420-1.html)

II  would say there is plenty of blame to go around for the condition Iraq is in today. We should not have gone in without a long term plan and most Americans admit  that and because of the way it was handled by our poiliticians we will bear the brunt of the rebuilding costs  (frankly we would have to under any condition).

I don't like accusations that are not backed up by facts.  This is last time I am posting on this subject , it is quite frankly, getting a little tiresome.

Post Edited (07-10-04 22:02)

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Post Edited (07-10-04 22:02)

>can i ask u something? why do u hate so much middle east? it sounds like u do.

I'm sick of this one region causing so much fear and suffering to the rest of the world.

Maybe not everyone in the middle east hates the west, but many of them do and this causes those countries to shelter terrorists, if not actively support them. They allow children to go to "schools" which are nothing more than terrorist indoctrination centers where fanatics will teach them to hate the west based on passages from the Koran that they have twisted to fit their own beliefs.

I read an article a couple years ago, I forget the source, where a reporter was allowed to visit one such "school". In his article he said that children are sent to these places which are completely controlled by islamic radicals who teach them their own version of the Koran. These children aren't taught things like math and science, or about the world. They're taught strictly religious lessons about how Islam is the one true religion, how they are the chosen people and that everyone else is an infidel who doesn't deserve to live. He said that during his time there, the boys (no girls allowed of course) thought it was great fun to jump out from behind trees and pillar and pretend to shoot him. When asked what they knew about the USA and the world, they replied that they knew the USA was on a mission to destroy the middle east and wipe the Islamic religion from the face of the Earth. When he tried to tell them that wasn't so, they called him a liar while their "teacher" just smiled and how well brainwashed the kids were.

How do you stop that?

I was wondering if any of you can send it to me i've been trying to watch it( not for entertainment, i need to know some things) and i cant download on these comps, so can someone plz send it to Imforeverone@yahoo.com,