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http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=267405&GT1=7703 (http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=267405&GT1=7703)

I first saw 'Farfour the Mouse' on The Daily Show.
At first I thought it was a joke.
Turns out - not so much.

The message to the world could very well be:  Don't mess with a Disney copyrighted character.

(http://newsbusters.org/static/2007/05/2007-05-07-mickey.jpg)(http://www.stuff.co.nz/images/294859.jpg)
                                                        MORTIMER MOUSE! NOOOOO!

At this point, I have no idea what will fix the social system in Palestine.  They appear to be completely screwed up and I now have a difficult time refuting what I had heard from a number of Israeli soldiers over the years.  We get some of their IDF NCOs and senior leaders at the USMC career schools.  They have told me that the Palestinians are so bent on religious war that they pursue it as an end to itself.  Teachers give classes about killing Israelis instead of math, that sort of thing.  I did not completely believe them and was always up for a talk over the issues and problems.  Now, with the IDF pulled out, the religious factions seem to be intent on killing each other.  I think that those people are so intent on death and war that it has become their focus.

This may be an extreme case that is getting a lot of press, but the core issue is that there seems to have been popular support from the population for the show.  The ending story is nothing short of insane as well.

When I was in the Marines I was stationed in Lebanon and Israel for about 4 years and even being in that area as long as I was I understood the whole thing about as well as I did before I arrived. The entire area is hell bent on destroying each other and I personally don't think there will ever be anything close to peace over there.

This stuff has been show on their television for a long while now with children dressing up as suicide bombers and teachers teaching them to hate Jews. The Western world just chooses not to think about it. Only one can survive. There has never been any peace treaty in the whole world that has been kept. One or the other will disappear in this case. The sickness is just to deep. Playing policeman in the region won't work. One must be vanquished.

Appalling, sad, sickening, and frightening.  Traumatize children so they learn the lesson of hatred.     :question: :bluesad:

I support palestine.  The israelis stole the land.  it's a crazy region,  most of it thrid world in nature.  if the israelis don't like the nieghborhood they're free to leave.  and i really wish we would stop giving them weapons.  You know mohammed atta wrote his last will and testament the night of israels massacre at Qana in 96?  Who knows what the one last summer will inspire.    lucky for us we have two massive unguarded borders!

You really need to read up on your history ...

Jewish presents in the modern day Israel date back to nearly 600BCE, is you recall this guy named Jesus was a Jew. While the area has been in flux for nearly 3000 years, following the British mandate of Palestine the UN sliced and diced up Palestine into 2 states in 1947, hardly a reason to say it was stolen as the area was partitioned under UN181 and 33 member state voted for it, 13 against which was mainly an alignment of Arab states and 10 abstaining. How is that stealing? If feel sure you have you mind set in stone so I won't bore you with the rest of history. 

The area of the Middle East controlled by Muslims could be compared to a football field.  The area controlled by Israel would be a postage stamp in one corner of the football field.  Why can't we let the Jews have their "stamp" - which, incidentally, is the place where their culture and faith was born, and (if you believe there is any truth at all to Scripture), the place promised them by God?  Certianly they have done more to develop that region, and make the desert bloom, in 60 years than the Arabs did in the entire 1400 years they lived there.

As far as the Palestinians go, there has never been a Palestinian state in the entire history of the world.  The "Palestinian" people (mostly Bedouin Arabs) have done NOTHING to show they deserve a state of their own, or are capable of governing one if they got it.  Their entire philosophy seems to be based on killing Jews.  For the life of me I can't understand why we are so eager to accomodate these people who danced in the streets when they saw the news of 9/11 . . . .

Much of the strife is due to the fact that Israel happens to contain Jerusalem, a city important to what have come to be called the "world's three great religions."  I'm not sure that all of the commentary is fair or accurate, as the Muslims were much more tolerant of Christians and Jews for centuries than Christians ever were of Jews or Muslims.  I despise any philosophy of hatred, but it is a mistake to overlook Middle Eastern culture and tolerance for many centuries when the West was not. . .  we should not overlook any people's humanity and how much we are all alike and not really all that different.  Human stupidity is what drives acts of violence. 

I got in a 'debate' with a friend of mine who is deep in politics, mainly of the socialist variety, over his 'Israelis are terrorists' badge.  Basically we argued about the worth of either side, and whilst he gave me some good examples of where Israel has gone wrong, I think I managed to convince him that that doesn't excuse the wrong done by Palestinian violence etc.  Basically there is no innocent side really, but I'm of the open-minded variety of accepting both views and would very much like to slap them both and say 'let it go'.  At least Israel, on the outside at least, appears to be doing more to try and move on, even if it doesn't usually work.  I'll give them that much.

The world's a messy place, and this is one example of a hate-fueled culture that just burns too easily on its own.  I quite frankly am that jaded that I know it won't be solved in my lifetime, and that a massive effort in re-educating the youth over there is the only way to realistically solve it [basically wait for the old ways to die out and newer better ways to surface.]

This, of course, won't happen anyways, but I can dream...  Don't even get me started on how religion is being used in this context either.  Meh...

The problem will never be solved as long as you have people (and I use the term loosely) running around killing children TV icons and blaming it on some other group. Just to set the seed in the mind of the kids that these people are bad ....

Who's really bad the people they don't like or....
The people brainwashing the kids with this kinda crap?
Strapping bombs on kids and telling them it's ok.

Like I said I lived there and no one is without fault, but the PLO, Hamas, Hezzballah and those like them will never go for peace, never they don't want it.

You said it!  The "glorious struggle" is their only reason for existence; it's how they hold onto their power,  and they will never give it up.  Muslims in the surrounding nations will never LET them give it up, either - as long as they can keep their citizen's rage focused on the Israelis, those citizens forget how corrupt and oppressive their leaders are.  The Israelis, of course, aren't completely blameless - hate begets hate, and no one can be the focus of that much hate, rage, and violence without eventually returning it.  But the Israelis don't want to conquer the Arab world - they just want to be left alone.  But most Middle Eastern Muslims will never be content until Israel is destroyed.

It is true that in the days of the Sultans, Islam could be and frequently was a tolerant system - especially compared to repressive, Catholic Europe, whose theology bore about as much resemblance to the New Testament's as a cabbage does to a donkey.  However, violence is intrinsic to Islam, if you read the Koran.  Muhammad was repeatedly ordered to make war on all unbelievers, even the "people of the book" (Jews and Christians).  Islam was born in violence, spread by violence, and fosters violence and hatred to this day.  The urbane, intellectual, and tolerant Islam of the Ottoman Empire frankly bore less resemblance to many of the teachings of Muhammad than the radical hate-spewing Wahabis of Saudi Arabia do.
   That being said, Christianity - or at least, the "Christian" church - has been responsible for horrible atrocities throughout its history.  But this violence is extrinsic - there is nothing in the New Testament that justifies, encourages, or tolerates violence by believers against unbelievers.  A Christian who kills in the name of his faith does so in violation of everything Christ taught.  I don't know why the church historically has had such a hard time grasping that.

cheezeflix=  this  (http://www.aldeilis.net/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=108&Itemid=114)  is the best history i personally know of. 


as mr Cattan indicates, the area was largely arab for 18 centuries till zionism started ahppening.  essentially , we punished palestinians for the crimes of european anti semetic society.  it makes no sense.

There have always been jews in palestine but it was onlyduring the last century after the balfour declaration that the ethnicity of the area changed dramatically.   There are many israelis from say Russia or ethiopia, who are not descended from the original jews.  the russians conveted around the time of Charlemagne.  They have no sort of genetic connection to the area whatsoever.


      I just think the law of the jungle should prevail.  Israel defended themselves just fine 1948-67.  It wasn't till the weasels in the beltway decided to give them billions every year , which led to us giving the egyptians, saudis and pakistanis and everyone else billions a year that all this stuff started.

    it's not just israel.  it's NATO, SOuth Korea.  the cold war is over.  motherf**kers should defend themselves.  We have way to many ways for terrorists to get to us. 

Jerusalem is one small town, not an entire country. Jerusalem is split up into 4 regions/sectors (Jews, Christians, Arabs, and Armenians) Jerusalem while is surrounded by Palestinian controlled areas as sat forth in UN181. It's not the historic land of Israel until as roughly about 3000 years ago when King David sat it up as a Jewish Capital, much like Peter the Great did when it established St Petersburg in the Ingrian land taken from Sweden in 1703 ...  so should the Jews give back the city of Jerusalem to the Canaanites? If they should you have a long list of lands the that need to be returned to their historic occupiers.

I'm sure Israel would be thrilled to defend themselves and not taking military aid, as soon as Hezboallah, PLO, Hamas and about 2 dozen more stop taking aid and equipment from Iran, Russia, China and a few others. And for the record US assistants to Israel didn't state after the Six Day War in '67 it started with Truman after the passage of the formation of Israel, Truman approving a $135 million Export-Import Bank loan and the sale of surplus commodities to Israel.

To quote an report by M. Bard

In 1951, Congress voted to help Israel cope with the economic burdens imposed by the influx of Jewish refugees from the displaced persons camps in Europe and from the ghettos of the Arab countries. Arabs then complained the U.S. was neglecting them, though they had no interest in or use for American aid then. In 1951, Syria rejected offers of U.S. aid. Oil-rich Iraq and Saudi Arabia did not need U.S. economic assistance, and Jordan was, until the late 1950s, the ward of Great Britain. After 1957, when the United States assumed responsibility for supporting Jordan and resumed economic aid to Egypt, assistance to the Arab states soared. Also, the United States was by far the biggest contributor of aid to the Palestinians through UNRWA, a status that continues to the present. 

Note that bold part ...

Israel as of 2001 owe the US about $2B in loans and military aid, so far until many Arab states, they actually pay it back.

Israelis one of the few true FRIENDS and allies America has . . .  they vote with us 84% of the time in the UN, and they sent aid to America after 9/11 and after Katrina.  They are the only true democracy in the Arab world, and law-abiding Palestinians living in Israel have more personal freedom and political and civil rights than do the Arab residents of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, or Egypt. 

I hesitated to get into this discussion out of fear that it would become a flame war.
Thankfully, it hasn't.

I am, and always have been firmly on Israel's side.
I've done extensive reading about the Israel/Palestine conflict and Islamic terrorism in general.

If you're looking for some answers, check out www.marksilverberg.com
I don't always agree with what he says, but his writings are definitely eye-opening and informative.

He sometimes comes across as a bit of a warmonger.
There are several times he basically says, "Kill the terrorist Muslims now!  Before they kill us!"
But the majority of his writings, all of which I have read, are dead on.
He makes some very good points that are worth reading.

His best essay in my opinion is this one:
Paradise Lost: The Decline and Fall of Arabia (http://www.marksilverberg.com/index.php?article=689)

He literally hits the nail on the head as to why the Middle East is in the current state it's in.

We are without a doubt, in the middle of a clash of civilazations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_civilizations).

cheezflix-  lol pay us back!  Israel has cost us BILLIONS and they'ev never paid ANY of it back.  We give them several billion every year,  not to mention the military aid and more to the point TAKING OUT THEIR ENEMIES LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN FOR THEM.  What's this war cost so far  like a trillion dollars?  When are they going to pay us back for THAT?  and how come they aren't part of the coalition of the willing.  also, that history of jerusaelm covers the general history to a large extent.  jerusalem does not have a different history than Palestine.  The point is it's been arab for 18 centuries till about 100 years ago.


     As far as Russia and china aiding hamas and hezbollah, do you not understand the cold war is over?  Are you afraid lebanon and Palestine are going to go communist? 

Besides, Hezbollah was created by Israels incursion into lebanon in the early 80's.  They rose up out of that in response to the massacres that israel and their allies were doing there.

   and I haven't even mentioned the USS Liberty, Rachael Corrie,   and the rest of israels othjer "accidental" massacring of innocent civilians l,which they then deny.  1,000 killed in lebanion last summer, virtually none of them hezbollah fighters.

  nor have I mentioned jonathan pollard.  Israel is not our ally , they don't have a "right to exist" (no one does) and more to the point, it's not my fault they are in the situation they're in.  We freed jews from the concentration camps, we don't persecute jews here.  Isn't that enough?

Sorry, Lester, I just can't go with you on any of your major points.  The central issue boils down to this: the Jews have ONE historic homeland, ONE birthplace of their faith, and ONE place on the globe that is the touchstone of their entire culture, and that is the land of Israel.  The Palestinians were a largely nomadic people who were not that attached to the land until the other Arab states refused to allow them to relocate in  their territories.
    I would also point out that EVERY single Israeli attack on Muslims has been in response to attacks on Israel from those Muslim communities.  Of course there are civilian casualties, when you are dealing with an enemy that places rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals.  And I am sure there are times when Israeli responses have gone overboard - hatred does, after all, breed hatred. 
  But there is no moral eqivalency.  All Israel wants is to be left alone.  All most Islamists want is the utter destruction of Israel as a state and the death or forcible converson of every living Jew.  Why do you insist on carrying a torch for a religous movement that will stamp out every bit of intellectual, religous, and political freedom on earth if given the chance?

  As far as Israel "paying us back", foreign aid is generally not a loan.  We've never asked for any of it back.  And we took out Saddam Hussein not because he was Israel's enemy, but because he was OUR enemy.  The point is there are very few nations we can count on to stand by us  - the Brits, the Aussies, and the Israelis to name three.  Do you really want us to sell out the only thriving democracy in the Middle East to appease the barbarian states that surround it, in some vain hope they will then love us?  The Islamofascists desire nothing less than the destruction of 2000 years of Western Civilization and a return to the Dark Ages.  The destruction of Israel would put them one step closer to achieving that goal.

that is not true.  any israeli would tell you that's not true.  there's no doubt that the zionists kicked out the palestinians to create israel.  what to do about it is another story, but  virtually every jew in israel today came post 1900 , though there has always been some jewish presence there.  But again, for the previous 18 centuries there were jews all over the world, none of whom felt any need to return to "israel"


ridiculous.  was rachael corrie, a college kid from seattle trrying to stop the demolition of a house attacking them?  were the soldiers so scared of her awesome power they had no choice but to savagely run her over with a bulldozer?  the IDF picks off palestinians for sport. 


lol  there are 25,000 jews who live in iran, including one in the parliament.  Besides, those here who can remember back will recall it used to be called the "arab israeli" conflict.  it has only been a religous war relatively recently. 

it's about property.  israel is UN sponsered eminent domain.  israelis are "better" therefore we'll give the land to them.  well,  israelis ARE better!  if we parceled out land on merit they'd have had the entirety of the middle east by 1949.  but we don't.  like i said, it's the law of the jungle.  if the Indians decided they wanted the country back, we'd have to fight them like we did in the first place.  israel has to do that, but they are hiding behind us and we're tkaing the bullets.



why was saddam hussein OUR enemy?  doi you think he was going to invade america?  the kuwaitis p**sed him off because they knew their oil slaves the US would get their chestnuts out of the fire.

Why are we even IN that region?  we can buy oil from whoever.  we buy it from the saudis now.  their official religion is wahabi islam!!  we're funding our own destruction as it is.

why do we have ANY presence in the middle east?  because the israel lobby in washington is powerful. 



lol.  then we should get the hell away from them shouldn't we.  if they are that awful shouldn't we be going in the OTHER direction instead of TOWARDS them?

and the middle east isn't at all like that.  iran looks like any american city.  afghanistan and places like that are pretty backward, and the region as a whole is pretty unproductive and depressing but it's not rural and ...fascist!!

not anywhere near the type of authoritarianism you see in , say , China

I get the feeling you and I are never going to agree.  Fortunately, we live in a democratic republic where such disagreement is not only allowed but is the very fabric of our existence.  My respect to you, sir - but I still think you are largely wrong.

I'm glad this hasn't become a huge flame war yet.

Anyways...  The whole problem in the middle east is the fact that there is so many accusations that can be leveled at both sides. Examples could be the Palestinians explode a car bomb or the Israelis accidentally shoot civilians. What makes the conflict worse is that neither side seems to be willing to talk about it. I can't remember exactly which leaders they were, but when it looked like both Israelis and Arabs might make some form of permanant peace, leaders on both sides where assassinated by warmongers on both sides who wanted to continue fighting.

Never any huh? Again please check you fact and get back with us. They along with Brittan are one of the very few countries that do pay use back for loans with interest. Do not confuse aid and loans.


Roughly 26 percent of what Israel receives in Foreign Military Financing can be spent in Israel for military procurement. From FY88 to FY90, Israel was allowed to use $400 million in Israel. From FY91 to FY98, the amount was increased to $475 million. As U.S. military aid to Israel increased, according to the agreement to cut economic aid, the amout set aside for defense purchases in Israel has increased. In 2006, the figure was $595 million. The remaining 74 percent of FMF was spent in the United States to generate profits and jobs. More than 1,000 companies in 47 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program. So while the US sends aid to Israel; Israel spends far more in the US on contracts than is sent. (There is a method to the madness.) Why aren't they a member of the coalition of the willing? Politics, you won't get Arab counties to join if Israel is a member. Childish, but that's why.
Man, Israel is the diversion, if they weren't there to give the Arabs some to focus on and be mad at, then who would it be? Sure they bomb us and attack France, Spain England and many more on a small scale relatively speaking, but if Israel wasn't there to take the brunt of the hate, then who would the Arabs hate? US? They have to hate somebody, they always have.


   
Just pointing out where they get there stuff from, notices you left the #1 contributer off the list Iran ... god I hope they don't go Islamic too. :lookingup:


Hezboallah blew up the Marine barracks on Oct 23, 1983 killing 241 fellow service members, many of whom I knew. As I was there, if you are defending Hezboallah you are misguided. We where sent to insure Israel stayed on their side of the line, and Hezboallah blew us up for that? Please ... I'll leave it at that ...

 
Have you ever been in combat? Accidents happen and seems to me only those that have been in combat understand that and the general populous does not. Often you have a fraction of a second to make a choice, the wrong choice could cost you your life, and sometimes it cost the life of others that are innocent. It's not fair, it's not good but it happens. WWII  and Vietnam saw more friendly fire accidental death than have been incurred since the beginning of the Iraqi conflict. And Rachel Corrie, you stand in front of a bulldozer, my monies on the bulldozer to win that contest. Flesh vs bulldozer ... it's a no brainer. If you interfere with military operations bad things happen.
Hezbollah fighters? I'm sorry you mean Hezboallah terrorist ... how civilian casualties did Israel have? Who attacked who first? Who targeted civilian first? 1000's dead, let's try around 800, shall we and we'll be a a little closer to the truth. I always find it funny when one side beat another side more, is this high school football were we send in the 4th sting to let the other side catch up, I always thought the object was to win, don't believe all the propaganda you see on the news, the middle east can work the western media like a puppet on a string and make them dance and sadly the American public will sing along.


So your anti-semitic? At the very least it sounds that way. So what about Pollard? Casper Weinberger, imposed an embargo on information transferred to Israel, unknown to Israel. Therefore, Israel was denied information regarding the development of chemical weaponry in the Arab countries headed by Iraq, which in the meantime according to various publications, had transferred its weapons to Syria. Was what Weinberger did fair or correct? Don't know why they do what they do, but I do understand wanting the information when you're surrounded by people that want you dead, was Israel method the correct one? NO, it was stupid they should have used proper channels, but it's done ... and don't think for a second we don't have a nose snooping around in every country on this earth including Israel. Information makes the world go round and spying is part of the game.

Dude, Israel is not without sin, any more than we are ... conflict is ugly and when it's on your doorstep 24/7 you think and act differently then you would safe 10,000 miles away watching it on CNN, you can't relate, so stop trying. You know I'm glad you know a few things going on over there, enlighten yourself and read and understand all sides before being hasty to blame one over the other. We're all guilty of something, think about it.

so the rule of law doesn't apply to them?  look at what you're saying.  Israel won't even return what he took so we know what they have and what may have ended up in soviet hands.


you are one of the more delsional people I've met.  if we give the 2 billion dolalrs of course they can pay back a loan for less.  an economist recently tabulated that Israel has cost us 1.6 trillion.  TRILLION.  we can't sell planes and stuff to certain countries like saudi arabia because of Israel. 


each other.  elephants. who cares?  we wouldn't be involved.  what do you have against the US being an independent country?


the cold war was against communism, not islam.  the people in those cuontries are muslims and have been for more than a thousand years.  they haven't GONE anything.  Iran has been Iran for thuosands of years.  They weren't a problem till Israel moved in to the neighborhood.  Now every muslmi country is on the chopping block. 

The US should havea declaration of indepenedence from Israel.

We're just going to go back and forth on this, you aren't going to agree with me, I'm not going to agree with you ... and that's not a productive use of my time.

well, let me say this.  I believe there are two legitmate points of view on this issue.  one is that israel will collapse if the US stops being it's bodyguard.  The other is that it will be just fine, as it was from 1948-67 till our ...socialism in that region began.

I don't think it's acceptable to say that israel is fine without our support but we shold for no good reason continue to hang around the area simply for our own hegemonical ego.  It's also unnacceptable to say Israel will be destroyed and that that is a good outcome.

so it's essentially two different views on how to go about procuring the safety of the people of the region.

I just advocate hands off.  mainly because interventionism has failed so many times

Not to re-light this debate, if the US hadn't of intervened in WWII were would we be? What would the world be like today? And yes I know if we hadn't have intervened in Vietnam that could have saved a lot of grief and life's there too. Problem is no one knows what the outcome of intervening will be until after it's done, hind site is 20/20 but fore site is a roll of the dice.

To do nothing is often more costly than doing something, even if the something is wrong. It's that old adage it's better to have tired and fail, to have never tired at all.

It would be great to sat back and say"You know what world, you deal with it." but we live in a global economy and it just don't work that way. What happens there, or anywhere effects us here. Not long ago a strike, along with unrest and militants in Nigeria sent oil prices up, the price at the pump here headed up as well. So we have to stick our nose into people busy to protect our own interest. It's not just oil, it's nearly everything you buy is in some way effected by global actions. Sure we'd all like to hold hands, lite candles and sing Kumbaya and everyone get along, it's hasn't happened in all of recorded history and I doubt it ever does. 

if we hadn't intervened in ww2 I think the germans and the russians would have battled it out.  and I think our entry into the conflict jump started the holocaust, not to mention our refusal to accept jewish immigratns, truly a dark moment in our history.


  I see world war 2 as the consequence of the statecraft of world war 1, particularly the treaty of versailles.  I think the world was for some reason experimenting with big big government at the time, hitler mussolini, and ,yes, FDR.

I think the US is imitated more than it realizes.  I think if we had accepted jewish immigrants in 1924-44 we could have averted not only the holocaust but the tumolt in israel.  i think other countries would hav followed our lead and accepted more jews as refugees.  and I htink now if we lead by example and shrink the government and all the alliances it could spread around the world as well.

My first thought is your right about the Jews we should have taken in the refugees. But your wrong about the Germans. Keep in mind that during their first summer offensive against the Russians they managed to get within 30 miles of the Kremlin before being driven back by the Russian winter. It wasn't great tacticians or new technology that save the Russians, it was the Russian winter. So with no aid being provided by Russia's allies"(U.S. and Briton) they would have surely gone under the next year or so. And with out our aid to Briton, the English might have been invaded(I can't say for certain since I don't know how much of our aid helped swing the battle of Briton in the RAF's favor). So with Briton and Russia out of the way, Hitler would have continued his conquest may into the Middle East or North Africa.

Also your forgeting the Japanese. Since we had cut of the oil tap to them, war against us was inevitable. They would have invaded more lands to try to get oil and we would have tried to intervene. Or They would have tried to get to the oil rich Dutch East Indies Which would mean going through our bases in the Philippines. So even if they hadn't hit Pearl Harbor they would have hit another base in the Pacific.

So it was inevitable we would get sucked into World War 2.

I'm sorry; I've been avoiding getting involved in this thread, as entertaining as it was, but I must point out something.

Your thoughts are interesting, but they are not facts.

You propose some different ways to interpret historical events, and attempt to contextualize them into the modern era.  More power to you.  But you are missing a whole heap of things that REALLY HAPPENED.  US involvement in WWII was inevitable; there's no way we could have just sat by and allowed Germany and Russia duke it out.

For one thing, Germany had an active nuclear research program; in fact, nuclear fission was first observed in Germany and as early as 1942, the Germans had a centrifuge design capable of refining uranium. Some historians believe the intent to destroy some of this infrastructure was behind the Battle of Berlin.

Hitler was driven to annex other lands, and that's something that should make us ALL very wary.  Well, if we value freedom, at all.

Happy Independence Day, by the way.   :wink:

Yep the US was involved in WWII long before the first troop hit the ground. If it wasn't the "lend-lease" program to Brittan it was the embargo's on Japan for Oil, Coal, Wood and many other products.

well those were dumb is what I'm saying.  statecraft is retarded and counterproductive 9 times out of ten.


take iraq.  the CIA has a hand in saddam getting in power, granted so did alot of others,  then we fund the guy to fight Iran,  then we cozy up to the kuwaitis and fight him for them.  then we sanction him, which hurts the people and not him at all, then we invade and occupy his country.


If we had simply opted out at any point between 1960's and 2003 we would be much much better off. 

If we can go to, say , liberia and stand aronud for 5 minutes and totally dispel a civil war, great.  But the world is unruly and it's very easy to bite off more than you can chew.  If reagan had invaded the soviet union we'd be dead. we'd all be nuked and just totally dead.

that's where we are now.  islam is the soviet union.  and we are biting off more than we can chew