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Title: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 11, 2007, 07:48:18 AM
According to this study it looks to be true. I for one tend be more in the middle, so where do we fit in?

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-politics10sep10,1,5376455.story?ctrack=1&cset=true



Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: ulthar on September 11, 2007, 08:41:57 AM
Gotta register to read that?

Anyway, without reading the article, I cannot comment in detail.  LA Times, though?  But based on the subject line and source, I'd have to say "I don't buy it."  I can imagine how some almost-relevant research result has been twisted or misrepresented.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 11, 2007, 09:19:32 AM
Gotta register to read that?

Anyway, without reading the article, I cannot comment in detail.  LA Times, though?  But based on the subject line and source, I'd have to say "I don't buy it."  I can imagine how some almost-relevant research result has been twisted or misrepresented.

...as would be standard for the state of journalism.

I don't buy it either; all you have to do is look at the number of people who switch general political outlooks as they age, or in response to something overt like 9/11, and the idea is rendered suspect.

Of course, even debating this question presumes that they've been able to define "liberal" and "conservative" in any sort of meaningful way.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Him on September 11, 2007, 10:38:49 AM
Well in the more literal sense, Liberal is the willingness to try new things, where as conservative is the desire to maintain status quo.

In that sense, you can argue that our brains are prewired.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 11, 2007, 10:49:47 AM
I just realized that I DO have an LATimes registration under one of my old email addresses, so here's the complete article text:

Quote
Exploring the neurobiology of politics, scientists have found that liberals tolerate ambiguity and conflict better than conservatives because of how their brains work.

In a simple experiment reported todayin the journal Nature Neuroscience, scientists at New York University and UCLA show that political orientation is related to differences in how the brain processes information.

Previous psychological studies have found that conservatives tend to be more structured and persistent in their judgments whereas liberals are more open to new experiences. The latest study found those traits are not confined to political situations but also influence everyday decisions.

The results show "there are two cognitive styles -- a liberal style and a conservative style," said UCLA neurologist Dr. Marco Iacoboni, who was not connected to the latest research.

Participants were college students whose politics ranged from "very liberal" to "very conservative." They were instructed to tap a keyboard when an M appeared on a computer monitor and to refrain from tapping when they saw a W.

M appeared four times more frequently than W, conditioning participants to press a key in knee-jerk fashion whenever they saw a letter.

Each participant was wired to an electroencephalograph that recorded activity in the anterior cingulate cortex, the part of the brain that detects conflicts between a habitual tendency (pressing a key) and a more appropriate response (not pressing the key). Liberals had more brain activity and made fewer mistakes than conservatives when they saw a W, researchers said. Liberals and conservatives were equally accurate in recognizing M.

Researchers got the same results when they repeated the experiment in reverse, asking another set of participants to tap when a W appeared.

Frank J. Sulloway, a researcher at UC Berkeley's Institute of Personality and Social Research who was not connected to the study, said the results "provided an elegant demonstration that individual differences on a conservative-liberal dimension are strongly related to brain activity."

Analyzing the data, Sulloway said liberals were 4.9 times as likely as conservatives to show activity in the brain circuits that deal with conflicts, and 2.2 times as likely to score in the top half of the distribution for accuracy.

Sulloway said the results could explain why President Bush demonstrated a single-minded commitment to the Iraq war and why some people perceived Sen. John F. Kerry, the liberal Massachusetts Democrat who opposed Bush in the 2004 presidential race, as a "flip-flopper" for changing his mind about the conflict.

Based on the results, he said, liberals could be expected to more readily accept new social, scientific or religious ideas.

"There is ample data from the history of science showing that social and political liberals indeed do tend to support major revolutions in science," said Sulloway, who has written about the history of science and has studied behavioral differences between conservatives and liberals.

Lead author David Amodio, an assistant professor of psychology at New York University, cautioned that the study looked at a narrow range of human behavior and that it would be a mistake to conclude that one political orientation was better. The tendency of conservatives to block distracting information could be a good thing depending on the situation, he said.

Political orientation, he noted, occurs along a spectrum, and positions on specific issues, such as taxes, are influenced by many factors, including education and wealth. Some liberals oppose higher taxes and some conservatives favor abortion rights.

Still, he acknowledged that a meeting of the minds between conservatives and liberals looked difficult given the study results.

"Does this mean liberals and conservatives are never going to agree?" Amodio asked. "Maybe it suggests one reason why they tend not to get along."

The idea that neurobiology is intrinsically tied to one's political self-declaration as an undergrad strikes me as really, reeeeeeaally hard to support.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: dean on September 11, 2007, 11:00:49 AM
The idea that neurobiology is intrinsically tied to one's political self-declaration as an undergrad strikes me as really, reeeeeeaally hard to support.

On that: Is the article proposing that your brain patterns affect your political belief, or vice versa?

Meh... There's way too many variables to make me think anything more than 'hmmmm' about this.

I suppose it makes more sense that a 'liberal' point of view can 'tolerate ambiguity' better: isn't that the nature of being liberal, ie open-minded, to conservative, ie close-minded?

But still, I wouldn't really take the research altogether that far... Being a conservative doesn't automatically make you a moron who is incapable of independent thought.  And it certainly shouldn't make you tap a key in a different manner to a liberal.

Unless of course the idea is that in being 'liberal' you seek out more information and learn more, whereas a 'conservative' sticks by what is known and doesn't seek to educate themselves much more, therefore becoming a 'use it or lose it' theory in higher brain function.

But even that is stretching it, and frankly, silly.

 :lookingup:


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 11, 2007, 11:06:03 AM


I suppose it makes more sense that a 'liberal' point of view can 'tolerate ambiguity' better: isn't that the nature of being liberal, ie open-minded, to conservative, ie close-minded?

Ideally, yes.  But I don't think that that description really applies to the self-identified college "liberal," i.e. progressive, who can just as easily be rigid and doctrinaire about unassailable received wisdom and assumptions as any right-winger.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: dean on September 11, 2007, 11:13:22 AM


I suppose it makes more sense that a 'liberal' point of view can 'tolerate ambiguity' better: isn't that the nature of being liberal, ie open-minded, to conservative, ie close-minded?

Ideally, yes.  But I don't think that that description really applies to the self-identified college "liberal," i.e. progressive, who can just as easily be rigid and doctrinaire about unassailable received wisdom and assumptions as any right-winger.

Yeah, I don't think it does either.  I know way to many self professed 'liberal-minded' people who won't have a bar of your discussions, even if you present them with an equally viable alternative.  Kind of the equivalent to stomping your feet and shouting 'but I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG!!!'

Still it's an interesting platform to take from this research.  I certainly don't take it at it's face value, but it still does raise the question in my mind at least, as to what inside a person's brain makes them think a certain way/view a certain situation the way they do.

Though of course this is not exclusively connected to politics and should be a discussion to my friend studying psych who is in the middle of cutting up mice brains for her thesis instead...


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: ulthar on September 11, 2007, 11:50:35 AM

I suppose it makes more sense that a 'liberal' point of view can 'tolerate ambiguity' better: isn't that the nature of being liberal, ie open-minded, to conservative, ie close-minded?


I have to reject that basic premise.  I'm conservative, and I *KNOW* that I am more openminded and tolerant than most of the liberals I know (and have insulted me for various things).

I think you hit it on the head with "too many variables."

To me, this whole thing smacks of a "see, liberals are better people" brainwashing attempt.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 11, 2007, 11:57:25 AM

Yeah, I don't think it does either.  I know way to many self professed 'liberal-minded' people who won't have a bar of your discussions, even if you present them with an equally viable alternative.  Kind of the equivalent to stomping your feet and shouting 'but I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG!!!'

Still it's an interesting platform to take from this research.  I certainly don't take it at it's face value, but it still does raise the question in my mind at least, as to what inside a person's brain makes them think a certain way/view a certain situation the way they do.

Though of course this is not exclusively connected to politics and should be a discussion to my friend studying psych who is in the middle of cutting up mice brains for her thesis instead...

When Trey and Matt the  creators of South Park were asked who was easier to poke fun at, they immediately said liberals (actually I think they said Democrats) because of the very reason you stated. They're a lot more prone to whine about your portrayal of them than to come back at you with anything meaningful.

The meaning of  liberal and conservative  as associated with politics have become so skewed that they are actually considered derogatory terms depending on who is speaking.  To me both equal pig-headed. We only get to see the extremes of the two through the media's eye and little of the in between, which is where most people  exist.

I don't accept this study as far as the political aspects. I can tell you that as I get older I've gotten a lot more liberal than I was in my youth. So where does age fit into their equation?



Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: ulthar on September 11, 2007, 12:23:47 PM

I can tell you that as I get older I've gotten a lot more liberal than I was in my youth. So where does age fit into their equation?


Interesting.  I wonder if this is part of a more recent trend - a reversal of the old data.  It's been about ten years or so since I've read anything on this, but back then, the trend was both age and education level correlated with becoming more conservative.

As mentioned, though, it's really hard to define "liberal" and "conservative."  Many people I know don't fit either label globally, but only can be labeled such on specific issues.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Him on September 11, 2007, 12:33:01 PM
I'm conservative, and I *KNOW* that I am more openminded and tolerant than most of the liberals I know (and have insulted me for various things).


Then you aren't really a conservative and the people you are refering to aren't really liberals.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 11, 2007, 12:46:28 PM
Tolerance or intolerance is universal, it just depends on what you're being intolerant of.  Democrats are just as intolerant about some things as Republicans are about others. That's where the whole pig-headed thing I was talking about comes in. 

You can't paint people with such a wide brush.  People and their opinions are complex and this too often gets lost with the use of labels like liberal and conservative. They're nothing but pigeon holes created by the news media to put people in.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Him on September 11, 2007, 01:19:36 PM
Tolerance or intolerance is universal, it just depends on what you're being intolerant of.  Democrats are just as intolerant about some things as Republicans are about others. That's where the whole pig-headed thing I was talking about comes in. 

You can't paint people with such a wide brush.  People and their opinions are complex and this too often gets lost with the use of labels like liberal and conservative. They're nothing but pigeon holes created by the news media to put people in.

But the article you posted isn't about Republicans and Democrats. It's about Liberal minded people vs Conservative minded people.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 11, 2007, 01:57:33 PM

But the article you posted isn't about Republicans and Democrats. It's about Liberal minded people vs Conservative minded people.

Just making a point about labeling people, it's gotten to the point that the terms are synonymous in the US. 

The main point is most people waffle between the two, the political labels are just examples. 

Heres a question: I don't know anyone who isn't intractable about something, so does that mean everybody I know is conservative?

I just want someone to define the categories for me (there would be a helluva lot more than two).


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: ulthar on September 11, 2007, 02:17:26 PM

Then you aren't really a conservative and the people you are refering to aren't really liberals.


Well, without getting into definition-based quibbles over the use of these terms, I *AM* fundamentally conservative as the term is used colloquially today.  That does NOT mean I am closed-minded bigot, but that seems to be the stereotype.  And the liberals I referenced were academics and would most certainly self-categorize 'liberal' (or perhaps progressive, much the same thing).  And they were FAR FAR from open minded and tolerant of viewpoints other than their own, which is the liberal stereotype being discussed here.

The point I was making was that the STEREOTYPE of conservative = closed minded, liberal = open minded is totally wrong - or at the very least, very, very overgeneralized.  True, I know conservatives and liberals that fit the stereotypes, but I also know many more in each group that stand the stereotypes on their heads.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 11, 2007, 02:18:46 PM
Tolerance or intolerance is universal, it just depends on what you're being intolerant of.  Democrats are just as intolerant about some things as Republicans are about others. That's where the whole pig-headed thing I was talking about comes in. 

You can't paint people with such a wide brush.  People and their opinions are complex and this too often gets lost with the use of labels like liberal and conservative. They're nothing but pigeon holes created by the news media to put people in.

But the article you posted isn't about Republicans and Democrats. It's about Liberal minded people vs Conservative minded people.

No it isn't, it's about people who self-affix the political labels "Liberal" or "Conservative," which political labels or factions do NOT line up seamlessly with the idea of being "liberal-minded" or not.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Mofo Rising on September 11, 2007, 03:33:22 PM
The author of the news article is playing it very tongue-in-cheek.  I was prepared to call the whole thing a sham, except I was able to find the original journal article in Nature Neuroscience.  (Getting an article published in Nature or any of its supplementaries is no small thing.)

The author declaratively states that the research claims that there are differences between liberal and conservative thinking (EDIT: It says it quite a bit stronger than that.  You get the point), rather than there is a relationship between neural-activity timing when faced with differing stimuli and liberal/conservative leanings.  There's a bit of a difference between the first statement and the second, which goes to show the pitfalls of interpreting data.

It's unfortunate that the original researchers picked the letters M and W as their choices.

"...conditioning participants to press a key in knee-jerk fashion whenever they saw a letter."

"Liberals had more brain activity and made fewer mistakes than conservatives when they saw a W..." (My emphasis.)

Considering the nature of their study, they could have easily avoided that obvious and pointed remark.  (To spell it out: George W. Bush.)

Finally, notice that most of the people quoted in the article are "not related to the original study."  Scientific news is distorted and twisted for "spin" just as much as any other story.  Especially considering the air of authority "science" has.

Don't believe everything you read.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: LilCerberus on September 11, 2007, 10:41:50 PM
I don't believe in genetic predispositions.
I say it's all in our zodiacs, offset by what music is popular at certain points in our lives, with just a dash of karma at daily intervals to bring it alive.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 12, 2007, 05:29:21 AM
I don't believe in genetic predispositions.
I say it's all in our zodiacs, offset by what music is popular at certain points in our lives, with just a dash of karma at daily intervals to bring it alive.

 Believe it or not...I think your answer made more sense to me than any other!!! No, really!  :thumbup:

  I think I'm prewired to disagree with anything that is in vouge at the time, politically wise...(and most anything eles.)


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Jack on September 12, 2007, 09:27:17 AM
The "definition" of conservative as used in the study is just the liberal's negative view of conservatives (dogmatic in their beliefs, not open to new ideas).  The validity of it is just about equal to the conservative definition of liberals (tax the hell out of somebody else and give the money to me).  If anything, it just serves to point out that these people are engaged in stereotyping, which is a completely typical example of the usual open-mindedness and dedication to serious research we've come to expect from "scholars".


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 12, 2007, 09:39:22 AM
If you are not a liberal when you are 20, you have no heart.

If you are not a conservative when you are 40, you have no brain.

It's got nothing to do with science, it's got to do with life.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: LilCerberus on September 12, 2007, 01:38:05 PM
One thing I've been wondering lately, why is it always artists who become communists?


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 12, 2007, 02:02:57 PM
One thing I've been wondering lately, why is it always artists who become communists?

Idealism.

Communism is a terrific system, IF everyone involved buys into it and no one at the top is corrupted by power or self-interest.  In other words, it's great in the abstract -- not so good in the real world.

Free-market capitalism, on the other hand, is at least nominally geared to take competition and self-interest into account.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Him on September 12, 2007, 03:59:08 PM
One thing I've been wondering lately, why is it always artists who become communists?

Idealism.

Communism is a terrific system, IF everyone involved buys into it and no one at the top is corrupted by power or self-interest.  In other words, it's great in the abstract -- not so good in the real world.

Free-market capitalism, on the other hand, is at least nominally geared to take competition and self-interest into account.

Actually neither system works in its purist form. The ideal system contains elements of both.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 12, 2007, 04:24:49 PM
One thing I've been wondering lately, why is it always artists who become communists?

Idealism.

Communism is a terrific system, IF everyone involved buys into it and no one at the top is corrupted by power or self-interest.  In other words, it's great in the abstract -- not so good in the real world.

Free-market capitalism, on the other hand, is at least nominally geared to take competition and self-interest into account.

Actually neither system works in its purist form. The ideal system contains elements of both.

Well, the ideal system is populated by ideal people.  So what we're left here on Planet Earth is systems which have to encompass venal, small-minded, selfish, and evil people as well as well-meaning idiots.  Given the options, I think the one with the best possible rate of success would be one which allows for and makes use of the impulse to self-interest.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 12, 2007, 08:01:37 PM
Communism would probably work if the world were populated with zombies.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: LilCerberus on September 12, 2007, 08:33:23 PM
My favorite example of a communist is Diego Rivera.
That's why I just don't get it.
I know absolutely nothing about his paintings, and I think it's because every PBS show I've ever seen about him is about his lifestyle, not his art.

To me personally, everything about the man just screams gluttony, excess & selfishness, from his appearance, to his relationship with his wife, to his feud with the Rockefellers, & ultimately strikes me as the kind of individual who would in no way, shape or form benefit from communism, even under the most ideal circumstances.

Or maybe I've just been creatively, sexually & financially frustrated for way too long.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 12, 2007, 10:27:46 PM
My favorite example of a communist is Diego Rivera.
That's why I just don't get it.
I know absolutely nothing about his paintings, and I think it's because every PBS show I've ever seen about him is about his lifestyle, not his art.

To me personally, everything about the man just screams gluttony, excess & selfishness, from his appearance, to his relationship with his wife, to his feud with the Rockefellers, & ultimately strikes me as the kind of individual who would in no way, shape or form benefit from communism, even under the most ideal circumstances.

Or maybe I've just been creatively, sexually & financially frustrated for way too long.

His work in interesting and has great color. However you are correct in a communist world he would have fell flat. Nothing about him would have worked under communism, and why he embraced it is anybodies guess. Just because it was new and different perhaps, much like many of the American ex-patriots of turn of the 20th Century France threw about the 1920's. That whole the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
Over all I like Rivera work, but as a person I thought he was an ass.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: ulthar on September 12, 2007, 11:01:53 PM
Communism would probably work if the world were populated with zombies.

It's not?


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 12, 2007, 11:43:06 PM
Communism would probably work if the world were populated with zombies.

It's not?

They're are those 1% er's.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 06:11:52 AM
 I'm an artists...and I am not,nor have I ever been, a member of the Communist party.  :tongueout:
 I guess, in some circles,years back,it was considered 'hip' to be a Marxist. The hippies in the 60's used the commune living system,and most were dismal failures,being as it isn't in human nature to share the load...nice in theory...but totally unreal And look at the Manson commune!!! A good example of why communism cannot work.!
  (who want's to live with a bunch of smelly hippies anyway?Yeech!)

  The US has lots of problems...underline LOTS a hundred times-but I'll take it over a Tolatarian goverment (the old Communist USSR) any day. I couldn't type this write now if the US was anything like the old USSR-for one-I couldn't afford a computer,and two-it would be read,filtered and come back on me in a bad way.  :buggedout:

 PS: I don't consider myself either libral or conservative...I don't know what I am.  I just don't trust politics....it's all sales pitch.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 13, 2007, 07:18:54 AM
The biggest problem in modern life is the death of common sense.


I'm like you RC, I have pretty much lost faith in our political system and I was a Republican back when it meant fiscally conservative, but I have been a declared independent for about 15 years.  Politicians care about nothing but getting reelected. I know some start out as idealistic, but the system is corrupt so they must become corrupt to operate within that system.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Jack on September 13, 2007, 07:58:48 AM
I think that as humans we've got a natural instinct to be part of a group.  That's why you'll see people staunchly defending various politicians on every issue - because the group is doing that.  It's why people are communists when the philosophy would make their lifestyle impossible, because they want to be a member of a group.  It's all fantasy anyway, your one vote out of two hundred million isn't going to make a difference but it's fun to espouse philosophies and be buddy-buddy with others and think that you're involved and making a difference.  That's why a gluttonous pig can endorse communist dogma with no fear of ever being purged or forced into starvation with the rest of the evil bourgeoisie. 

I finally came to the conclusion that politics is just another 1,000 things to be p**sed off about and you can't do anything about it anyway - it just decreases your quality of life.  I stay up-to-date on current events and spend a small amount of time mulling that information over in my head, and I vote for the lesser of two evils in every election, but there are so many non-political issues in a person's life that need attention, and you actually can do something about those, and enjoy a small amount of actual satisfaction at what you're able to accomplish. 



Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 13, 2007, 08:45:35 AM
When I was young and poor I was liberal. I liked the idea of Government services as a safety net there to help if needed. Aside from government cheese and peanut butter I never received any government help. I struggled and did without.

As I got older and did better in life I found government services a burden on my pocket as I went from getting refunds to paying in at the end of the year. I slowly changed to conservative as I saw those that didn't try and make a better life and continued to suckle upon the government tit as nothing more than loafers looking for a ride. And you really don't want me on that soap box.

Then as I saw the conservative party fail to stand for anything and the widening divide within the the government has a whole I became an independent.

The Democratic party in this country sickens me, the things the Pelosi, Clinton, Kennedy and so many others say that the world hears makes my blood boil. Sometimes you need to know when to just shut up and they don't. The Republicans are no better they don't say as much to annoy me but they are not immune to stupidity. My own congressman Mitch McConnell the minority leader need to be sent packing, he's been there to long and has been so busy playing politics that he has forgot who he works for.

It time there is sweeping change in Washington, the next election need to see the ones running gone and new blood in there with this cool new thing called TERM LIMITS. These clowns can not stay in Washington as long as many of them do and not be corrupt, we need to end lobbyist and special interest and make sure our elected representatives actual represent the people that elected them ... crazy concept I know.



Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 13, 2007, 11:10:31 AM
The problem with our two party system is that they have everything sewed up.  I really got p**sed when Ralph Nader (someone I would never voter for) was kept off the ballot here because of the inane rules the two parties have set up to keep third parties off the ballot.  As much as I despise Mr. Nader he should be allowed to run.


It's hard to change the system when the foxes are guarding the hen house, which I wonder sometimes isn't the reason the founding fathers gave us the second amendment.


It would take a lot of people to be interested to get anything changed, and I don't believe it will happen until the money and privilege is taken out of politics.  The founders never counted on career politicians, we were supposed to be governed by ordinary people doing public service.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 13, 2007, 11:14:24 AM
The problem with our two party system is that they have everything sewed up.  I really got p**sed when Ralph Nader (someone I would never voter for) was kept off the ballot here because of the inane rules the two parties have set up to keep third parties off the ballot.  As much as I despise Mr. Nader he should be allowed to run.


It's hard to change the system when the foxes are guarding the hen house, which I wonder sometimes isn't the reason the founding fathers gave us the second amendment.


It would take a lot of people to be interested to get anything changed, and I don't believe it will happen until the money and privilege is taken out of politics.  The founders never counted on career politicians, we were supposed to be governed by ordinary people doing public service.

I think the best way to break the national two-party hold on the system would be for more states to change their "winner takes all" approach to the electoral college.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 13, 2007, 01:02:41 PM
I think the best way to break the national two-party hold on the system would be for more states to change their "winner takes all" approach to the electoral college.

I fully understand the argument against the electoral college, however with that said you would have an imbalance in the system. states with small population like mine of Kentucky (8 votes) would not get a fair shake against states with huge population like California (55 votes) with many cities larger than KY entire population, and it's not just KY it's many states. And soon you have 1 or 2 states deciding the future and direction of the country which might not set well with the others and you end up back in 1861 ... so while the electoral college isn't the best it's better than the popular vote.

Perhaps we should give the candidates gloves and let them duke it out, last one standing wins ... if that ... my monies on Thompson.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 13, 2007, 01:31:04 PM

Perhaps we should give the candidates gloves and let them duke it out, last one standing wins ... if that ... my monies on Thompson.

I've always been a proponent of the congressional fist-fight.  It might do a few of them some good to get an old fashioned ass-kicking.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 01:43:52 PM
  ARRRRGHHHHH!!!

  [youtube=425,350] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH-7kc4Qm2Y


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 13, 2007, 02:02:50 PM
I think the best way to break the national two-party hold on the system would be for more states to change their "winner takes all" approach to the electoral college.

I fully understand the argument against the electoral college, however with that said you would have an imbalance in the system. states with small population like mine of Kentucky (8 votes) would not get a fair shake against states with huge population like California (55 votes) with many cities larger than KY entire population, and it's not just KY it's many states.

You misunderstand me. I'm not proposing an abolition of the electoral college, but for more states to award proportionally split votes, rather than giving all X-number of votes to the candidate who might win a marginal plurality.  The manner in which votes are awarded, as I understand it, is a state's prerogative, and there are at least a couple which award the electoral college votes proportionally, instead of as a single discrete chunk.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: ulthar on September 13, 2007, 02:14:29 PM

And soon you have 1 or 2 states deciding the future and direction of the country which might not set well with the others and you end up back in 1861 ... so while the electoral college isn't the best it's better than the popular vote.


They do now in very subtle ways.  California pretty much decides the 'canon' of school textbooks, with everyone else basically saying "we have to use what they use."  And let's not forget Hollywood via movies and TV demonstratrating "proper" morals and values. Some nut in California decides a bird or rodent should be protected from the 'evil men' and next thing you know, we ALL have to spend 2.5 years on environmental impact studies before ANYTHING can be done.

But, back on point.  I think Maine does it the way Nate suggests, do they not?  Each district sends their own delegate, and I agree, that is a MUCH better system if representation is truly the goal.  But I believe the Democrat party would fight this tooth and nail; for example,the 2000 Presidential election vote-by-district map showed such an overwhelming majority for Bush, and I suspect subsequent elections were similar.  The nation is primarily fairly conservative (ie, just barely right of center), and the large urban centers are the primary pockets of liberalism.

All this reminds me of a political essay I once wrote in which representative government was extended to the extremem of a representative in Congress for EACH person.  Relax, it was satire; I know that's impossible.   :wink:


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 02:29:09 PM
 I think the electorial collage totally perverts and biases the systym. It is only a means for the "powers that be" to get a foot hold and get into office who THEY want...not the people. Who 'they' are...?
  I don't like to sound like some kinda nut job conspiracy theroist...but so much power poker goes on behind closed doors...I have gotten to the point that I believe our present facade of 'democracy' is a joke...pepertrated by the money people...whoever they are...that-I don't know either. It's all smoke and mirrors...the majority not known by us-in the name of money and power. I can't stand any of it.  Politics...as it is-not only in thiscountry-but worldwide-is so f#cked up and self serving it's unreal. You can vote any way you want...but the powers that be  are going to do what they see fit...which has nothing to do with us p**s ants.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 13, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
I think the electorial collage totally perverts and biases the systym. It is only a means for the "powers that be" to get a foot hold and get into office who THEY want...not the people. Who 'they' are...?
  I don't like to sound like some kinda nut job conspiracy theroist...but so much power poker goes on behind closed doors...I have gotten to the point that I believe our present facade of 'democracy' is a joke...pepertrated by the money people...whoever they are...that-I don't know either. It's all smoke and mirrors...the majority not known by us-in the name of money and power. I can't stand any of it.  Politics...as it is-not only in thiscountry-but worldwide-is so f#cked up and self serving it's unreal. You can vote any way you want...but the powers that be  are going to do what they see fit...which has nothing to do with us p**s ants.

Except when they wanted to pass that immigration reform bill and 90% of the people said NO! and many of the politicians actually complained about the people they represent "FORCING" them to vote the way the voters wanted them too.

I was stunned, but not shocked that these asswipes in DC whined OPENLY about having to do what their constituents wants them to do. Can you say aristocracy? I think those in Washington believe they're some kind of royalty.

It times to bring them down to earth.
 


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 07:06:17 PM
I think the electorial collage totally perverts and biases the systym. It is only a means for the "powers that be" to get a foot hold and get into office who THEY want...not the people. Who 'they' are...?
  I don't like to sound like some kinda nut job conspiracy theroist...but so much power poker goes on behind closed doors...I have gotten to the point that I believe our present facade of 'democracy' is a joke...pepertrated by the money people...whoever they are...that-I don't know either. It's all smoke and mirrors...the majority not known by us-in the name of money and power. I can't stand any of it.  Politics...as it is-not only in thiscountry-but worldwide-is so f#cked up and self serving it's unreal. You can vote any way you want...but the powers that be  are going to do what they see fit...which has nothing to do with us p**s ants.

Except when they wanted to pass that immigration reform bill and 90% of the people said NO! and many of the politicians actually complained about the people they represent "FORCING" them to vote the way the voters wanted them too.

I was stunned, but not shocked that these asswipes in DC whined OPENLY about having to do what their constituents wants them to do. Can you say aristocracy? I think those in Washington believe they're some kind of royalty.

It times to bring them down to earth.
 

No argument here! Amen!!!


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 13, 2007, 07:34:00 PM
No argument here! Amen!!!


[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87yq372R4Ts


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 08:02:53 PM
Revolution...? Dam straight!  :thumbup:
 But that in itself poses a problem...who to follow? Some phoney bulls**t artist with the gift of gab?
If Jesus Christ ran for office-he'd be laffed out of town as a radical !
 
 


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 13, 2007, 08:32:07 PM
Revolution...? Dam straight!  :thumbup:
 But that in itself poses a problem...who to follow? Some phoney bulls**t artist with the gift of gab?
If Jesus Christ ran for office-he'd be laffed out of town as a radical !

I like a straight talker, someone that will say we're going to build a wall and they don't care if it p**ses off every illegal from here to the pacos. A leader that won't play politics with bad politicians and call them bad politicians and expose them for what there are. Have the backbone to tell this wacko judges that think they can make law as they go along to reel it in or pay the price. We need Uncle Ron back, no one could handle Ron he did what he wanted to do and the world feared him and more often than not Ron was right ... he psyched out the Soviets with his make believe star wars, brilliant develop a weapon that can't be made and the other side folds. 

Oh I'm going stop or my blood pressure going to go up and I'd have issues with that here lately.

I just listened to the Presidents speech and the Dem response and while Bush has his faults the Dem's have him beat in spades. I'm so sick of the term "failed policies" ... EXCUSE ME CONGRESS! Did you not vote for an pass a bill allowing all you whine about? AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Where's my F%*&kin' Maker's Mark at?!!


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 08:40:36 PM
 [youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmtcVECZBCU

 I'd love to change the world....but I don't know what to do.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 13, 2007, 08:45:20 PM
I like a straight talker, someone that will say we're going to build a wall and they don't care if it p**ses off every illegal from here to the pacos. A leader that won't play politics with bad politicians and call them bad politicians and expose them for what there are. Have the backbone to tell this wacko judges that think they can make law as they go along to reel it in or pay the price. We need Uncle Ron back, no one could handle Ron he did what he wanted to do and the world feared him and more often than not Ron was right ... he psyched out the Soviets with his make believe star wars, brilliant develop a weapon that can't be made and the other side folds.  Oh I'm going stop or my blood pressure going to go up and I'd have issues with that here lately.
Well, Ronald Reagan is not one of my favorites for a laundry list of reasons; I agree with half of what you said, but don't kid yourself, Ronnie was the master of partisan politics.  I almost gave you karma for that "straight talker" remark, but then you had to get into "the great communicator..."   :lookingup:
I liked that "Revolution" video, too!   :smile:  Watch your blood pressure!   :teddyr:

The manner in which votes are awarded, as I understand it, is a state's prerogative, and there are at least a couple which award the electoral college votes proportionally, instead of as a single discrete chunk.
Exactly. 

I fully understand the argument against the electoral college, however with that said you would have an imbalance in the system. ... so while the electoral college isn't the best it's better than the popular vote.
The purpose of the electoral college is to ensure that the wrong candidate does not get elected (like a hugely popular demagogue, or worse, a despot...)  The problem as cited by others is that it is elitist and always has been.  Of course, with laws regarding the voting requirements of the members of the college differing state by state, the original purpose is obscured.   

PS: I don't consider myself either libral or conservative...I don't know what I am.  I just don't trust politics....it's all sales pitch.
Here, here!  But, I can't give you no more karma tonight either, but I so agree.  But then again, everything in the mainstream is a sales pitch one way or another...


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 13, 2007, 09:09:22 PM
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTCQSk2l8bc


Quote from: The guy that just posted
Well, Ronald Reagan is not one of my favorites for a laundry list of reasons; I agree with half of what you said, but don't kid yourself, Ronnie was the master of partisan politics.  I almost gave you karma for that "straight talker" remark, but then you had to get into "the great communicator..."   Lookingup
I liked that "Revolution" video, too!   Smile  Watch your blood pressure!   TeddyR


Ah come on ... Ron was cool. Sure he was partisan but who isn't? We're all partisan to some degree on some issues.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 09:11:33 PM
I have heard good arguments from Karl Marx,Ronald Reagan, Thomas Jefferson, and every other person in creation...the peoblem is...everybody on Earth will never agree with one another...it will never be  Utopia.....and we can never  NEVER fix anything by killing one another. Do I know what to do? No. Let me know when you find someone who can.... :bluesad: Jesus Christ couldn't do it...if he couldn't-good man as he was-no one can.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 13, 2007, 09:42:32 PM
The purpose of the electoral college is to ensure that the wrong candidate does not get elected (like a hugely popular demagogue, or worse, a despot...)  The problem as cited by others is that it is elitist and always has been.  Of course, with laws regarding the voting requirements of the members of the college differing state by state, the original purpose is obscured.   


Actually, the electoral college is a relic of the days when the President was seen as presiding over the union of the individual states, not the country as a whole -- i.e., when we referred to the "United States" in the plural instead of thinking of it as a singular nation.  It makes sense in the same context of U.S. Senators originally being appointed by state legislatures instead of elected by popular vote; way back when, the people determined the state government, and the states determined the federal government (with popularly-elected Representatives as a counterbalance).


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 13, 2007, 09:53:56 PM
The purpose of the electoral college is to ensure that the wrong candidate does not get elected (like a hugely popular demagogue, or worse, a despot...)  The problem as cited by others is that it is elitist and always has been.  Of course, with laws regarding the voting requirements of the members of the college differing state by state, the original purpose is obscured.
Actually, the electoral college is a relic of the days when the President was seen as presiding over the union of the individual states, not the country as a whole -- i.e., when we referred to the "United States" in the plural instead of thinking of it as a singular nation.  It makes sense in the same context of U.S. Senators originally being appointed by state legislatures instead of elected by popular vote; way back when, the people determined the state government, and the states determined the federal government (with popularly-elected Representatives as a counterbalance).
So... how does that disagree with or correct what I wrote?  "Actually" blah blah blah... I am well aware that the electoral college was created by our so-called "founding fathers," and of course the electoral college is all about states' rights.  I reiterate: it's purpose is to prevent the election of the "wrong" candidate, and it remains elitist.  I have not indicated that I disagree with its function, even though the "W" was originally elected because of it. 

Ah come on ... Ron was cool. Sure he was partisan but who isn't? We're all partisan to some degree on some issues.
One thing Ronald Reagan was not is cool. 
"The revolution will not be televised...the revolution will not be brought to you by Bullwinkle..." 
Okay, okay, I'll give you karma, but we definitely do not agree about that operator.  


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 13, 2007, 10:05:43 PM
Where's Alice Cooper's song "I'm the Coolest" on youtube when you need it ...

Guess I could just put up the mp3 and a pic of Ron LOL....

You know I'm the coolest
That's ever come around
You'll notice things get hotter
whenever I'm in town
I mean I gotta be the coolest
who else could it be?
Everybody knows who's really cool
Ron


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 13, 2007, 10:07:52 PM
Thanks Cheezeflix for the payback.  Yes, that remark is sarcastic.  Why, oh, why am I so influenced by COOL music? 


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: RCMerchant on September 13, 2007, 10:16:56 PM
I don't believe in genetic predispositions.
I say it's all in our zodiacs, offset by what music is popular at certain points in our lives, with just a dash of karma at daily intervals to bring it alive.

 Like the man says...we are emotional creatures...in the long run-THAT is what drives us....politics be damened!


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 14, 2007, 06:49:22 AM
The purpose of the electoral college is to ensure that the wrong candidate does not get elected (like a hugely popular demagogue, or worse, a despot...)  The problem as cited by others is that it is elitist and always has been.  Of course, with laws regarding the voting requirements of the members of the college differing state by state, the original purpose is obscured.
Actually, the electoral college is a relic of the days when the President was seen as presiding over the union of the individual states, not the country as a whole -- i.e., when we referred to the "United States" in the plural instead of thinking of it as a singular nation.  It makes sense in the same context of U.S. Senators originally being appointed by state legislatures instead of elected by popular vote; way back when, the people determined the state government, and the states determined the federal government (with popularly-elected Representatives as a counterbalance).
So... how does that disagree with or correct what I wrote?  "Actually" blah blah blah... I am well aware that the electoral college was created by our so-called "founding fathers," and of course the electoral college is all about states' rights.  I reiterate: it's purpose is to prevent the election of the "wrong" candidate, and it remains elitist.  I have not indicated that I disagree with its function, even though the "W" was originally elected because of it. 

How does that disagree with what you wrote?  Well, it gives some actual historical context, instead of simply declaring that it was intended to prevent the rise of a demagogue (in some fashion that goes unexplained) and that it is "elitist" (again, in some sense that goes unexplained).


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Derf on September 14, 2007, 08:47:08 AM
So are there no libertarian nutjobbers here (besides me, to some extent)? I'm personally all for getting back to what the founding fathers had in mind with a union of states rather than a single entity with artificial state boundaries (as nshumate pointed out). Take the centralized power out of politics except for national defense and international diplomacy. I've been reading The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History by Thomas E. Woods, Jr., and, while it is sketchy, it gives some perspective to many events we've been taught only one side to. Some of it I already knew, but not all of it (I was never particularly interested in history, though that has changed in the last several years). So, since I've read part of a sketchy book, I guess I'm an expert now  :tongueout:.

Anyway, I have long believed that the Federal Government has become too powerful; it is past time to start repealing laws that should never have been passed in the first place. I am morally conservative, but I know better than to think that it is possible to force morality on people through legislation. Laws concerning personal behavior (outside of behavior which affects others) are usually worthless and unenforceable. Morality comes from within, not through force, so the government should get out of that game. State governments should be able to handle the day-to-day affairs of their citizens with only minimal involvement from the Feds. I am all for pushing innovation through a market economy (i.e., throw it out there and let the market decide if a given product is worthwhile). The way things are now, there are so many federal rules about products, most of which were passed because of special interest lobbyists, that innovation is stifled and we are stuck with whatever Wal-Mart thinks we should have.

The U.S. is not far from becoming a socialist country. We still have more freedom than the Soviet Union did, but as long as Congress and the Executive Branch measure their success by how many laws they pass rather than by wise governance, we continue the slow, steady march to totalitarianism.

I guess I'll stop my ramblings now. I'm just tired of governments that continually inject themselves deeper and deeper into citizens' everday lives.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 14, 2007, 09:11:43 AM
How does that disagree with what you wrote?  Well, it gives some actual historical context, instead of simply declaring that it was intended to prevent the rise of a demagogue (in some fashion that goes unexplained) and that it is "elitist" (again, in some sense that goes unexplained).
Nathan, you have good taste in music, so I like you, and I came perilously close last night to getting into a political debate in this thread (something I "religiously" avoid  :wink:)  I'm sorry my comments were "simple."  However, I remain unsure whether or not you agree. 

I may not have "explained" what I wrote, but I still believe it.  The purpose of the electoral college (particularly in the context of a poor 18th century backwater calling itself the United States of America where a majority could neither read nor write) was and is to safeguard the elite.  In colonial America, that would have been your gentleman farmer, the educated professional, and the businessman.  My thoughts are hardly a new idea.   


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: trekgeezer on September 14, 2007, 09:29:15 AM
Derf, I agree with a lot of what you said.  I love the way the Feds force the states to pass laws (55mph speed limit & 21 for the drinking age come to mind) by withholding funds. If you or I do that kind of thing it's called blackmail. 

I whole heartedly agree that the government should stay the hell out people's personal matters and not take on the role of morality police.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 14, 2007, 09:33:42 AM

I may not have "explained" what I wrote, but I still believe it.  The purpose of the electoral college (particularly in the context of a poor 18th century backwater calling itself the United States of America where a majority could neither read nor write) was and is to safeguard the elite.  In colonial America, that would have been your gentleman farmer, the educated professional, and the businessman.  My thoughts are hardly a new idea.   

I still honestly do not understand.  How does or did the electoral college, then or now, promote elitism?  At worst, it reapportions electoral power among the states in more arbitrary proportions than a popular vote would, but it appears that the balance of power is always slightly skewed toward the less populated states, which would be seen as more rural and populist-oriented.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: CheezeFlixz on September 14, 2007, 10:26:19 AM

I may not have "explained" what I wrote, but I still believe it.  The purpose of the electoral college (particularly in the context of a poor 18th century backwater calling itself the United States of America where a majority could neither read nor write) was and is to safeguard the elite.  In colonial America, that would have been your gentleman farmer, the educated professional, and the businessman.  My thoughts are hardly a new idea.   


I still honestly do not understand.  How does or did the electoral college, then or now, promote elitism?  At worst, it reapportions electoral power among the states in more arbitrary proportions than a popular vote would, but it appears that the balance of power is always slightly skewed toward the less populated states, which would be seen as more rural and populist-oriented.


How? Look at the number of states it takes just to balance out the number of votes California has alone.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Electoral_map.svg/800px-Electoral_map.svg.png)


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 14, 2007, 10:47:15 AM
Still not getting you.  What do you think the population of the other states is?

Let's take an extreme example.  California's population, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, is 36,457,549; California has 55 electoral votes.  Wyoming's population, for contrast, is 515,004 (unless that family of four moved.  :teddyr: ); it has 3 electoral votes.

So although Wyoming's population is roughly 1.5% that of California's, its electoral college votes are worth roughly 5.5% of California's -- they have electoral weight out of proportion to their population.  A vote in Wyoming is worth more than a vote in California.

So unless you're complaining about those elitist Wyomingites, I can't see your argument.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 14, 2007, 11:08:20 AM
Still not getting you.  What do you think the population of the other states is?
Let's take an extreme example.  California's population, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, is 36,457,549; California has 55 electoral votes.  Wyoming's population, for contrast, is 515,004 (unless that family of four moved.  :teddyr: ); it has 3 electoral votes.
So although Wyoming's population is roughly 1.5% that of California's, its electoral college votes are worth roughly 5.5% of California's -- they have electoral weight out of proportion to their population.  A vote in Wyoming is worth more than a vote in California.

So unless you're complaining about those elitist Wyomingites, I can't see your argument.
Hey, now you're responding to Cheezeflix, not me.   That's not my argument. 
I will say both Wyoming and California were not states until much later than the creation of the U.S. electoral college, and I have no comment about the weight of any single electoral vote.  My point was that in some states, the members of the college, though expected to vote as guided by the populace,  may vote as they wish.  Many states over time have rejected that idea, but of course must work with the electoral system.  The idea of not electing a president by popular vote, but by an electoral college, was intended to give the powerbrokers the opportunity to have ultimate control over who gets elected.   Such electors who vote their conscience as opposed to the candidate they are committed to are now called "faithless electors." 


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: nshumate on September 14, 2007, 11:16:39 AM
ah, okay, NOW I getcha; I was overlooking the "pass-through" of the votes via the actual elector.

(And sorry I conflated your arguments with CheeseFlixz's.)


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: ulthar on September 14, 2007, 11:21:32 AM
Still not getting you.  What do you think the population of the other states is?

Let's take an extreme example.  California's population, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, is 36,457,549; California has 55 electoral votes.  Wyoming's population, for contrast, is 515,004 (unless that family of four moved.  :teddyr: ); it has 3 electoral votes.

So although Wyoming's population is roughly 1.5% that of California's, its electoral college votes are worth roughly 5.5% of California's -- they have electoral weight out of proportion to their population.  A vote in Wyoming is worth more than a vote in California.

So unless you're complaining about those elitist Wyomingites, I can't see your argument.


The real issue is ALL of those 55 votes for California going to one party regardless of how the vote shakes down by district - your original point.  If you look at the county results maps for the 2000 and 2004 elections, you can see that the urban centers are basically HEAVILY biasing the country.

2000 (Red is Gore, Blue is Bush):

(http://www.uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/GENERAL/pe2000USA2.png)

2004 (red is Kerry, blue is Bush):

(http://www.uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/GENERAL/pe2004USA_smr.png)

Shoot, even if you look at the total state results (ie, not by county), it is very clear that a few states have the potential to determine the political landscape of the whole country.

Now, it might be argued that population-wise this is "fair," but I happen to be in the 'let's get back to decentralization' camp and believe that why on earth should California "govern" Oklahoma, Nebraska or Wyoming, for example, just because CA has more people?  This point is driven home even further when it is noted that not even all of California or New York voted D in these two "hotly contested" elections.

As I see it, there are only two or three NE states that are homogenous in the results.  These maps certainly emphasize, in my mind at least, that one government, far removed from the people governed, is not truly representative.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Psycho Circus on July 05, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
Another spammer !!!!

Get HIM!!!!  :hatred:


They're coming from all over the world! We need Chuck Norris.

(http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo336/backto86_bucket/INVASION-00AA1.jpg)


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Rev. Powell on July 05, 2009, 03:55:16 PM
Another spammer !!!!

Get HIM!!!!  :hatred:


They're coming from all over the world! We need Chuck Norris.

([url]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo336/backto86_bucket/INVASION-00AA1.jpg[/url])


I got him... removed the spam post & Dogget's reply, in case anyone's wondering what's going on.

Does that mean I'm Chuck Norris' equal?


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Psycho Circus on July 05, 2009, 03:59:28 PM
Another spammer !!!!

Get HIM!!!!  :hatred:


They're coming from all over the world! We need Chuck Norris.

([url]http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/oo336/backto86_bucket/INVASION-00AA1.jpg[/url])


I got him... removed the spam post & Dogget's reply, in case anyone's wondering what's going on.

Does that mean I'm Chuck Norris' equal?


It surely does. Before he comes for you to restore the balance.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Jim H on July 08, 2009, 01:32:21 PM
Quote
If you look at the county results maps for the 2000 and 2004 elections, you can see that the urban centers are basically HEAVILY biasing the country.


Don't the majority of people live there?

What I find most interesting is that even in the supposedly extremely liberal or conservative areas, any place with a larger population usually has a percentage spread that often seems pretty minor to me.  IIRC, I remember them describing a place that voted 60% for Bush as basically a landslide.  I think that really shows how evenly divided most places are in the US, even if in that example a republican nominee would almost always win.

(http://politicalmaps.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/2000-purple-america.jpg)

Blue is the democrats in this one.  I think this gives a better picture of how equal that election was.  You might notice there is more red, of course, but it's mostly because of less populated large geographical areas - and there's a lot of blue almost everywhere but in the west.


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: the ghoul on July 08, 2009, 10:41:55 PM
The article's just psychobabble.  Liberals and conservatives ie Republicans and Democrats.  They are kind of like coke and pepsi.  One is a little bit sweeter, but they are basically the same thing.  The country is going down the toilet fast and these people are all part of the same problem regardless of which club they belong to.  Obama is taking us down the same path as Bush and those before him, and eventually the U.S. may, for all intents and purposes, become little more than a colony controlled by a greater economic power.  One amusing thing (you've gotta laugh to keep from crying) I've noticed is that the conservatives are usually correct when they are talking about the liberals, and the liberals are usually correct when they are talking about the conservatives.  Personally, I don't follow in lock-step with any group that espouses a list of beliefs on a wide range of unrelated topics.  Doesn't it make more sense to form your own opinions on an issue by issue basis?   


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Frogger on July 11, 2009, 07:39:19 PM
That article is complete rubbish.

Any way to start with pointing out a few major flaws.

Its a classic its all genetics argument. Women are inferior because of our genes, of course this ignores examples of cultures that have produced reversed gender roles even equal gender roles (an easy to read book on the subject is "The Myth of mars and Venus" by Deborah Cameron). Racism is in our genetics, ignoring the fact that studies on children have proved that racism is learnt and not natural (like all views and ideas).

We are social creatures. The party you most likely vote for is the same your parents vote for. As they have brought you up and installed their values into you. Of course this differs as there are a lot of other factors in your development. For example if you grow up seeing the damage capitalism creates then your view of capitalism greatly differs from someone born into a rich family, gaining the benefits of mass exploitation and suffering.

I also like how socialism has been left off, not too shocking as the media likes to ignore its existence and then only reports on the large scale anti globalization movements if they happen in the USA or violence takes place (but as the majority are peaceful).

So journalism is in a poor state, well at least we still have some great people, such as John Pilger. I personally only trust the BBC for domestic news and Al Jazeera for the rest. Newspapers I normally go for the independent as it takes everything case by case. 
 


Title: Re: Our brains are prewired to liberal or conservative?
Post by: Nukie 2 on July 12, 2009, 08:40:55 PM
I'm hardwired Nihilist, I dunno about you.