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In 2012 you will see the death of the incandescent light bulb. (100W gone by 2010 and the 40W by 2014) That's right as of now that would be no more dimmers switches, and fickled 3 ways bulbs as everything is going to compact fluorescents. Well there was a study in a town (I'm looking for the link) that went GREEN, energy efficient everything and their energy use saw no change, that's right no change and some people's usage actually went up. Reason being they felt with energy efficient everything they could use more. Lights were left on that normally got turned off, thermostats turned up or down as it was claimed it used less energy.
I have a 60's hippy friend that went green like a frog in 2007 (Jan. 1) and recycled everything, energy efficient everything and tracked their expenses. After a year (This Jan 1, 2008) they added it all up and saw minimal change in kW average use per month over the prior year. The change was so slight it fell far short of paying for just the compact fluorescents they switched out to.
The following comment from Lynn Clement of Focus on Energy: "If every American household replaces light bulbs in their five most frequently used fixtures with Energy Star compact fluorescent bulbs, we could save more than $8 billion in annual energy costs and prevent greenhouse gasses equal to the emissions of more than 10 million cars."
Well I don't know were Lynn is getting her numbers, but from what I seen it would have little to no effect at all and fall far short of the $8,000,000,000.00 she claims.

Is freedom of choice dying or is it dead?

In my opinion, show me the proof, show me the facts and let me make up my own mind as to what light bulb I want use. My wife bought green bulbs at the tune of about $5 each and $14 each for 3-way bulbs, most of which we can't use because nearly every overhead light is on a dimmer, under counter, bookcase and cabinet lights all on dimmers and CF bulbs don't work on dimmers ... looks like I need to stock up or order bulbs from Russia if I expect to keep my current switches/dimmers. And who is going to pay to replace them and what with I do with the ones I can no longer use? Seems wasteful to me.

So are you green? Do you think it will really make a difference? Or is more "save the earth" propaganda to cram personal agendas down the publics throat?

We make real effort, but do not go crazy trying to be green.  Still, most would probably see us as very green conscious.

We do have all CFL bulbs.  Along with that, we always turn off lights that we are not using and keep reminding the kids about turning off lights.  We have curbside recycling here and recycle to the fullest.  Why not?  If not, the stuff is going into a landfill.  We keep the thermostat set to reasonable levels and have it set to turn down at night when we are in our warm beds.  We take quick showers and try to conserve water.

Comparing how much you spent on energy from year to year is not a good comparison.  Due to inflation and increased energy prices, if you are spending the same amount on heating and electricity this year - you are saving.

I'm somewhat green.
Back when I used to live in my old apartment, I became obsessed with recycling everything.
But here in the apt. I live in now, they don't offer recycling and for a while after I first moved in, it drove me nuts.

And I really, really hate flourescent lights.
No other light source is as artificial and headache inducing as flourescent light.
I love the soft yellow glow that comes from incandescent bulbs and dread the day they become banned.   :thumbdown:

I dunno . . . on the one hand, I do believe in being a good steward of our environment; on the other hand, I get sick and tired of the relentless anticapitalist fearmongering regarding environmental issues, especially the coercion and verbal abuse heaped on America by the global warming Gestapo.  Michael Crichton's latest novel, STATE OF FEAR, is a scathing commentary on the global warming crowd.   Suffice it to say I remain skeptical . . . .

I'm probably sorta teal.   I 've used CFLs for a long time, mainly because they don't burn out every month like incandescents.

I do go around turning out lights all the time, especially during the daytime because I prefer natural light.

Hey Cheeze, I was just in Walmart the other day and saw that they had 3way CFLs.  I would like to put some CFLs in my ceiling fan lights, but I hate the way those curly ones look and all the ones that look like regular bulbs put out very low lumens. 

The big problems with CFL's is they are going to have to find a way to recycle them. They contain mercury and that's not a good thing to be dumping in the land fills.

I'm brown.  one, I drive for a living and two, I don't believe any of the recycling global warming hype.  You want to see a really degraded environment go t any communist or formerly communist country.  great big piles of gunk and chemicals.

I won't say we are "green" because I hate that label.  But I abhor waste of any kind, and I do believe in recycling that which can be recycled.  As Andrew said, "why not."  To me, this stuff needs to be regrounded in common sense.  I don't see running around asking everyone what their "carbon footprint" is to be productive - just more feel-good non-substance.

These guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaSewyddd4) are doing some interesting research.  Watch the video and think about that the next you throw a plastic drink bottle, or anything else plastic, into the garbage.  Pretty impressive.

Cheez, thanks for the info on certain behaviors not reducing cost.  It would be good to have some actual numbers (if you can dig up the link.... :tongueout: ), but I would like to say this.  Sometimes it is not about reducing cost (though admittedly, that's the way it is marketed).

Also, the problem with use increasage is the same when people buy more fuel efficient cars.  Often, they simply drive more, all the while bragging to their friends about how they get 35 mpg.  Couple that with folks, like some in my family, that will drive an extra ten miles to save 2 or 3 cents per gallon on a 15 gallon tank.  So they save 30-45 cents; if the vehicle gets 30 mpg, the trip costs around $1.  Yet I've never been able to convince them of the folly of this, all just to say "I paid less than you per gallon."

Quote from: AndrewComparing how much you spent on energy from year to year is not a good comparison.  Due to inflation and increased energy prices, if you are spending the same amount on heating and electricity this year - you are saving.

The couple I know didn't base it on energy cost they based it on kilowatt hours used and saw little change from prior year, therefore adjusted for inflation they saw no savings. Their conclusion was that energy saving lights, appliances, etc. really didn't save any energy based on consumption. 

Quote from: trekgeezerHey Cheeze, I was just in Walmart the other day and saw that they had 3way CFLs.  I would like to put some CFLs in my ceiling fan lights, but I hate the way those curly ones look and all the ones that look like regular bulbs put out very low lumens.

Yes, I've seen them in other stores and I've bought a pack of 4 for something like $30 and one didn't work, one only worked on one wattage and the other two kind of worked, as sometimes they come on in a 3 way switch and other times not. So living out in the county I have to load up in my gas hog Dodge Ram and burn 2 gallons of gas to go back to town to replace them.

QuoteThe big problems with CFL's is they are going to have to find a way to recycle them. They contain mercury and that's not a good thing to be dumping in the land fills.

Correct and that is were 99% will go, right into the dump. In places like where I live were there is little to no recycling centers, people are not going to drive 20-40 miles to a decent size city to recycle a burnt out $2 bulb.

Quote from: ultharI don't see running around asking everyone what their "carbon footprint" is to be productive - just more feel-good non-substance.

I used 'carbon footprint' which I think it goofy because it's the current phasology. I'm sure with my business, shop, office, house, lighting, equipment, tractors, rural living and many others things I have a so called carbon footprint the size of a small country.

Quote
Cheez, thanks for the info on certain behaviors not reducing cost.  It would be good to have some actual numbers (if you can dig up the link.... TongueOut ), but I would like to say this.  Sometimes it is not about reducing cost (though admittedly, that's the way it is marketed).

I'm still looking for it and I'll look more, I read it a couple or so months ago and didn't bookmark it. (Doh) I had to go give a estimate and I have to give another this afternoon. Gotta pay the bills of my footprint some how. :tongueout:

What I really love is getting lectures on how i should ride the bus or carpool from a guy who owns FOUR mansions (each which consume way more power than the average home) and flies around in private jets.

Do as I say, not as I do, indeed!

we are green for one reason-money!we get paid for recycled aluminum,money goes to the humane society,we can deduct it.we turn the lights off,it saves money,same for lowering the heat when possible.we are now in the second year of being homeowners,and we intend to install central air,with a new furnace from our tax refund,why?to save money on bills,yet another tax deduction,and last,for comfort.yaddayadda,it all comes down to money for us.yeah,it's nice to help the environment,but for us,it's all about saving money.no offense.

Quote from: Ash on January 05, 2008, 12:36:33 PM
And I really, really hate flourescent lights.
No other light source is as artificial and headache inducing as flourescent light.
I love the soft yellow glow that comes from incandescent bulbs and dread the day they become banned.   :thumbdown:

Energy-saving light bulbs blamed for migraines
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/01/03/eabulb103.xml (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/01/03/eabulb103.xml)

I tried out an energy saving bulb once, and the quality of the light is just ugly.  I'd rather light my house with candles, and at least that would be far more energy efficient.

we have those bulbs at work,i hate them!they reflect off the metal walls worse than a regular bulb,and they leave corners alot darker...and it makes my skin look green in my work bathroom,i hate that!

Quote from: 316zombie on January 05, 2008, 04:21:12 PM
we have those bulbs at work,i hate them!they reflect off the metal walls worse than a regular bulb,and they leave corners alot darker...and it makes my skin look green in my work bathroom,i hate that!

Perhaps you really are a zombie.

Quote from: Pilgermann on January 05, 2008, 04:17:14 PM
I tried out an energy saving bulb once, and the quality of the light is just ugly.  I'd rather light my house with candles, and at least that would be far more energy efficient.

And in the winter you get added heat. I swear at Christmas my wife had so many candles burning the heat never kicked on. Of course now I need to paint the ceilings, but they needed anyway.

Quote from: CheezeFlixz on January 05, 2008, 03:12:14 PM

I used 'carbon footprint' which I think it goofy because it's the current phasology. I'm sure with my business, shop, office, house, lighting, equipment, tractors, rural living and many others things I have a so called carbon footprint the size of a small country.

Ooops.  I was not directing my comment at you (or anyone else here).  I was directing it at thost annoying commericals and shows on TV that use that term like it really means something...

If your friends are not seeing any lower consumption when using efficient appliances and such, maybe they are adjusting their habits in a detrimental way.  Another possibility is that one of their new appliances is misbehaving.  They'd have to check each to see draw and usage over time.  There are a lot of variables to figure it out.

See, the problem with incandescent bulbs is that they are just heat sources that happen to give off light.  That very fact is why it is a nice, warm glow.  Some of the newer CFLs are better about giving off natural light, plus a good shade can help the color cast around the room.

If I remember correctly, Home Depot and/or Lowes will now accept CFLs for recycling.  I'll try asking the next time I stop by one.

QuoteIf your friends are not seeing any lower consumption when using efficient appliances and such, maybe they are adjusting their habits in a detrimental way.

That was his observation and the observation of the test community (I can't find the link for) is that while the appliances, light bulbs, what ever used less electricity there consumption (kilowatts) went up or stayed the same and down for others. Mainly because some thought (the study) that since they where using less, they could use more, thus washing out any saving they might have realized.
The study basically concluded that it's human nature for some (or at least American) to think that if you spending less you can use more. Lights that the folks turned off they left on and so on.

I read this report months ago, but this past week I heard about it again on talk radio and what they concluded that the group net gain was nearly flat. Some people saw a decrease, some saw no change and some saw an increase based on lifestyle. The couple I know saw little to no change in number of kilowatts used and they are green to the core. They were at a loss to explain why or how they saw little change. Granted they use very little electricity to begin with, someone like myself that needs a power plant in the back yard might see some real savings.

Here is what I've been doing for a long time now (at least 4 years)

1.   All fluoro light bulbs in my house.  I don't mind the light they give off and I buy the strongest wattage possible.
2.   Recycle all rubbish wherever possible.  Our city council provides bins, so it's easy.
3.   Buy all natural food wherever possible to minimise packaging and saving on making rubbish.
4.   I have a front loader washing machine.
5.   I rarely use my clothes dryer, maybe 2 or 3 times a year and only if it's been raining for 3 days or longer.
6.   All my appliances have the highest energy star ratings possible.
7.   I don't have aircon for summer and it doesn't get cold enough here to own a heater.  I usually just open the windows on hot days and we have wonderful cross breezes. Living at the top of a hill rocks!
8.   If I do feel cold at any time, I put on a sweater and/or socks.
9.   Any room not in use has the light turned off.
10.  I turn off the tv and DVD at the power button so there's no standby power on.
11.  I walk everywhere or catch public transport ( I don't own a car and probably never will).
12.  I use baking soda and vinegar where possible as cleaning agents.  Although Mr Muscle oven cleaner is the best, even if it does strip the cells off your lungs!
13.  When having a shower, I use just enough hot water to stop from feeling cold and then I turn the water off whilst soaping myself  up or shampooing my hair.
14.  I take reusable cloth bags to grocery shopping and if I need plastic bags for bagging fruit or whatever, I bring my own. These get washed and dried after use.
15.  I keep my clothes for as long as possible, mending and darning when needed.  When they get too worn, I put them in for collection to charities.
16.  I never dry clean anything. Ever.
17.  I don't buy that blue stuff for the toilet.  It gets too diluted and looks like someone peed wrong   :teddyr:

That's all I can think of right now.  My one vice is that I buy paper towels for cleaning.  I find them easy and they work brilliantly and it stops me from spending unnecessary hours doing housework.

I would also like to grow my own veggies and have a compost heap, but we live in an apartment.  Granted, it's on the ground floor, but apart from a little raised walkway to the front door that I use as a verandah for my pot plants, I don't have any yard space to do that.  I'd also like to have gas hot water and cooking, but I can't change that because I rent.  Same goes for solar power on the roof.  Not possible.

That might sound like a lot of effort, but it's really not.  I'm not one to go out of my way to make my life uncomfortable with changes, no matter how green they might be.  What I do saves money and it's a logical way to live - I hate waste of any kind. 

I believe we should be more careful consumers and there are changes you can make that don't interfere in your quality of life.  But I don't really buy into this "we are killing the Earth" mantra that's sprung up recently.

Green groups throw around all these stats and figures, saying the weather is "odd" blah blah blah.  But humans haven't been compiling stats for 10,000 years, maybe only a couple hundred, so how can we really say what havoc we're wreaking?

And I don't care how bad greenhouse gas emissions get, I will NEVER give up eating steak   :teddyr: