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Real ID is a program DHS (Homeland Security) wants to implement  to make drivers licenses into National ID cards. I can see the point of making the DMV verify who someone is before issuing a license to them, but I do have concerns over a national ID card (reminds me too much of the Soviet Union). 

If you weren't aware, if this is implemented and you live in a state that doesn't comply (several have past laws saying they won't), you will have to present your passport to enter any federal building or board a flight (even domestic).  My own state (Arkansas) doesn't require you to produce a birth certificate to get one.  In fact, when I moved back here in '96 you could actually have use your SSN as your drivers license number.

Apparently though, my wife and I will be exempt for a while because of our age.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321925,00.html

I've heard about this before and I'll be honest...it makes me nervous. I think the government is doing a little too much and getting away with too many things in the name of fighting terrorism...it's like as long as they can claim that what they're doing is being done to fight terrorism, they can do anything at all. I'm not liking this very much.

You can thank the Patriot Act for that Odinn7.  Personally I don't care for it either.  The government gets more and more power all the time, and as long as this can be claimed to be done for "fighting terrorism" it will most likely be passed.

if they are worried about terrorism they shuold stop bombing muslim countries, not turn america into a dictatorship.


whatever the state wants from me they can suck it.  no and no

You know some of the stuff their talking about producing a passport is already happening. I remember when I went to a bank to get something and the DMV to get my permit they wanted my "passport". I never left the country and was born here and the made my life tough. Especially the bank. I gave them my Drivers Licence and my student ID and they said that wasn't good enough.

If their forcing me to get a passport no doubt they will eventually force this National ID thing which is just B.S. or their going to make it into something were its like you don't have to get it but its going to make every day life alot harder.

I don't like to toss around words like 'fascism' but one of its main characteristics is using fear of some enemy (internal, external, real or imaginary) to justify tighter control over the population.

I'm not suggesting that's what's happening, but it shares some similarities. Of course, there is the question of whether any fascist country got that way entirely by design. I'm sure that crazy guy with the little mustache thought everything he did was for people's own good - all the way down the slippery slope.

Hmmm, I come off sounding far less right-of-centre and far more liberal than I actually am. Really, I find Al Gore scarier than George W. in a lot of ways. Still, it makes you think.

The Mark of the Beast! National ID cards! Nude conspiracies! Lyndon LaRouche was right!

All Simpsons references aside, yes it is worrying. I was once told point blank by a police officer that I had to produce identification. Seeing as I was involved in the dangerous business of walking down the street to get breakfast, I'm sure I agree with him. I was also told that I needed to update my address with the DMV within a certain time period of moving. I don't own a vehicle or have a driver's license, so I'm not sure why the DMV needs to know where I live, but who am I to question things?

As long as the borders are locked at predetermined checkpoints to passport carrying citizens and the TSA is protecting us all from terrorist five-year-olds and parched throats, who would ever worry about a national ID scheme? It's not like government agencies routinely lose entire databases of personal information.

While I disagree wholeheartedly with an enforced national ID scheme, I also believe that it is a question that will never go away. It's not whether or not it will pass, but when. If not this administration/Congress/Senate, maybe the next; and it will just as likely be a "liberal" decision as a "conservative" one. (Of course, whichever side does end up passing the law will be decried by the other, that's just the nature of the Beast.)

I've got no problem with it, then again I'm a vintage 1963 model.

Wonderful. Like I needed more hoops to jump through. I have a commercial driver's license and drive a fuel tanker truck for a living. The last time I had to renew my license, I had to go through this whole new process of fingerprinting and background checks  - at a cost of 100 extra bucks on my end. And why? Because of the worry over terrorists getting a license with a hazmat endorsement on it and then using it to get a fuel truck and blow something up.

Even though I think it's a bad idea I have no objection to a using my DL # as a national ID, but requiring this won't stop terrorists, won't even stop illegal immigrants. The people this is supposed to catch are just going to get fake IDs. Right now in Los Angeles, if you have the money you can get a complete new identity, SSN  with  payment records, driver's license with DMV record, birth certificate, high school and college diplomas, IRS records, basically a complete new life story, all this thanks to computers and the way they're used to keep records. Of course this new ID won't hold up under intense scrutiny but the government is not going to have the time to check everyone thoroughly so they're not going to catch the bad guys with this, what this is going to do is start making people angry,  when enough people are angry about it the government will have to change the law, that's the way our system works. We move like a pendulum from left to right, not staying in any one spot very long, as long as we keep an eye on them and let our representatives in the government know whether we like or don't like what they're doing we'll be alright. This is what you must do to live in a democracy.
 

I've got mixed emotions.  Any measure they can take that makes it harder for terrorists and illegal aliens to fake driver's licenses and ID's is a good thing, but the whole national ID card is a bit Big Brother-ish.  I do like the idea of requiring a picture ID in order to vote - it will cut way down on voter fraud.  I mean, I can't write a check anywhere without showing ID, so why should I be able to walk in and vote for the President of the United States without proving that I have the legal right to do so.

What I find interesting is the ACLU and the DNC oppose Voter ID's, they claim they will disenfranchise the poor and minorities. As the the case in Indiana were it cost $15 to get the voter ID. They claim this causes an undo hardship on them as they will not be able to get to the DMV to get the ID nor will they be able to afford the $15 dollar fee ... my question is if they can't make it to the DMV to get the ID, then how are they going to get to the polling station to vote? I bet if the so called poor had to get to the welfare office to apply for benefits they'd find a way. And as far as the $15 goes, that's BS I work on a lot of government and HUD housing, they can afford $15. I've been in very few and I mean a hand full of Section 8 and project housing where they didn't have a computer with internet, cable, large or big screen TV with 5.1 surround sound, plenty of food and nice rides ... yeah being on entitlements in this country really sucks. Who know a National ID might, just might cut down on the billions upon billions of welfare and SS fraud is addition to illegals.

I was working a a house last week, and the resident was whining about the $25 fee to renew your 4 year drivers license in KY, that they could not afford that kind of money ... I said, pointing to an item in the house "Really, then how did you afford the $45 bottle of Crown Royal?" The conversation ended.

It's about choices, plan and simple.

Cheeze, you are my hero!  :cheers:

You know, for all the rhetoric about us losing our freedoms and the fear of terrorists being used as an umbrella to slowly turn us into a fascist state, there are two things we need to remember:

1.  Terrorists have declared war not only on the U.S., but on every value that free societies treasure.  The goal of the Islamists is the destruction of 3000 years of Western Civilization.  They killed 3000 people on 9/11, and have killed hundreds in Europe and thousands in Israel.

2.  There has not been a single successful terrorists attack on U.S. soil since 9/11.  Could it be . . . just possibly . . . that the Patriot Act and some of the other Bush policies have . . . (shudder) . . . WORKED?  :question: :buggedout:

Think about it.

they don't want to kill 3000 years of whatever, they want us to stop bombing them and overthrowing their democratically elected leaders.  They have been on the swame planet as us for thuosands of years and till we started going over there taknig their oil we never had a problem with them.



there had only been one before that, in 1993.  after 9/11 we were simply more prepared for a possible attack.   




conservatism is conservatism.  you are either for small government or you aren't!  no excuses

Sorry, Lester, but have you seen the photos (confirmed on SNOPES.COM, BTW) of radical Islamists carrying banners that say "Death to those who insult Islam", "Europe is a cancer, Islam is the Answer", "Behead the infidels".  Just last year, when Pope Benedict remarked (accurately) that Islam's history is filled with violence, Muslims in Africa protested by shooting a 62 year old nun who was a medical missionary in the back, and torching a Christian girls' school.  Look what Islamists did to Afghanistan when they were allowed free reign there - total suppression of all freedom of expression and religion.  Their goal is to conquer the whole world with their faith, and to exterminate all Jews and Christians, period!  Denying it won't make it cease to be true.

(BTW, I do recognize this is not true of ALL, or even MOST, Muslims.  But if, as most sources say, even 10% of the world's Muslims are of the radical Islamist bent, that is an army of about 125 million - more men than Hitler ever commanded.  The jihadists are NOT innocent victims - they are evil incarnate.  I wish you could see that!)

Conservatism, BTW, is about more than the size of government.  The size of government is dictated by the size and needs of the country and by the will of its citizens.  Conservatism is about preserving and maintaining our precious historic legacies and traditions - like freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom of dissent.  All of which our enemies wish to end forever.

You need to get over your obssession with the dollar signs and realize that there is such a thing as real good and evil in this world.

most of the people weren't holding up signs that said things like that.  yuo are talking abuot like 8 people. 


virtually all of the arab world resents our foreign policy.  rich, poor, right wing left wing.  they really don't like us supporting their dictators and giving billions to them to help them crack down on their opponents.  hard to believe but they don't.


lol.  there are 15,000 jews who live in Iran.  and there were thousands of christians living in and around the middle east including palestine till the europeans showed up. 


so go and fight evil in the world.  include me out.  my ancestors didn't come here to police the world.  they came for liberty and prosperity.  the world is big and crazy and it always will be. 



this is all just neo con propaganda.  they know nothign about the middle east, as is evidenced by their prediction that Iraq would be a cakewalk. 

The Catholic Church is hardly an organization that should be criticizing others for their violent past.  They have performed quite enough horrible acts in their own past.

This doesn't excuse either side for anything they do now.  Both sides of this have their share of blame in what is going on.  The Arab world has a lot to be deservedly upset about, but terrorism is never an answer to anything.

I feel that liberty removed or freedom forsaken in the name of fighting these guys just brings them one step closer to victory.   Most of the stuff our government has done to "protect us" since 9/11 has been nothing but a show.  Do you think being forced to take your shoes off at the airport is making anyone more secure?

All this by passing of the legal system in listening in on our conversations and watching everything we do on the internet is just setting up a system that if ripe for political abuse.   I guess most of you aren't old enough to remember the 60's and early 70's when the FBI had files on everyone that even burped in the wrong direction.

This ID thing could be a good or a bad thing, but it's our duty as Americans to watch what government does and call them on the bad stuff.  When we act as sheep for anyone , we're p**sing on our heritage.


Please make sure that the conversation here stays civil and doesn't become personal.

True, but then again this isn't the middle ages. And that is a problem where fighting a medieval mentality with modern morals. IF and only IF we fight fire with fire well they get the message.

I'd say to the Islamic world, get your radicals under control or the next time some western person from any country gets so much as a scratch, Mecca will be nothing more greasy spot. Keep it up and all your cities will be greasy spots, and don't just say it, do it. You'd be surprised just how fast the Islamic leaders all of the sudden know where these radicals they claim they can't find are at. I'd be willing to bet Musharraf knows where bin Laden is at.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

"This ID thing could be a good or a bad thing, but it's our duty as Americans to watch what government does and call them on the bad stuff.  When we act as sheep for anyone , we're p**sing on our heritage. "

Karma to Trekgeezer for that one!!!

Lester, you do have the courage of your convictions.  I just wish they weren't so wrong.  But, freedom of expression is one thing we all seem to agree on - at least.

Cheeze - you are still the man.

Soon as he gets his national ID we can track him down and "re-educate" him.

Sincerely,
The Ministry of Truth 

They were looking to implement a 'Smart Card' here for some time, which basically has your Medicare details, health issues and a whole lot of other information on it to make things easier, allegedly. 

There is of course the other side of security, but this debate has raged longer than that was an issue [that is, before 9/11]

Many people are against it due to the very real possibility of this data card being used too easily in identity fraud.  That's really my main concern.

As for this situation, well anything done under the pretense of national security always makes me nervous, but I don't see how having an ID is a bad thing [though this thing about passports being needed for domestic flights seem ridiculous]

The way I see it, I need an ID to get into a pub/club [well sometimes], I need a license to drive my car, so what's wrong with just having various official forms of ID for people without a license?  As long as it's not a mandatory thing then meh, whatever.  The worry for me is what they are using it for.

 

Uh, wrong. 

For example, the Crusades were as much a preemptive strike as it was a religious war.  The Muslims of the time were barrel rolling through Asia and Europe conquering at will and if the wars hadn't occurred, odds are we'd all be speaking Arabic and wouldn't be on computers because they would have never been invented.

Do you SERIOUSLY think that if we just pulled completely out of the Europe and the Middle East TODAY, all the fanatical terrorists of the world would just go, "Oh, good!  Now we won't have to kill any of those Americans, we'll just live in peace and go about our lives (after we nuke Israel, of course)."?

If so, I've got a bridge in Kuwait I'd like to sell you.

I don't care what they do.  No i don't think they'll start being peaceful.  we have 30 million people living under the poverty line here in america.  I'd rather we's get rid of the income tax complately so we can bring their standard of living up via the free markeet and hopefully other nations will lead by our example.

the rivalries in the middle east have been going on since before america existed and i have no interst in getting in the middle of them.

I believe in the law of the jungle.  the israelis are going to have to stand and fight or they will be overrun.  we are going to have to stop borrowing so much and debasing our currency.  we are all just surving and luxuries like bring \ing democracy to the world are not something we can afford in my opinion

I have to agree that backing off the war on terror is entirely the wrong thing to do. For all the reasons we hear of why people resort to terrorism, it really comes down to one. Terrorism works. Blow up a building or a train or a plane full of innocent people in a normally peaceful area, and see how fast your enemy loses his resolve. The WTC was big enough and bold enough that people demanded retaliation, but even then there were many saying the USA brought that on themselves, and advocating a cessation of any activities in the Middle East. Other incidents have resulted in a higher percentage of people blaming themselves or their governments for attacks on their own country, and the answer, they say, is to get out of the Middle East.

If every terrorist attack resulted in greater resolve and greater involvement, I think they'd eventually move away from it. Backing off in the face of terrorism is precisely what it aims to accomplish, and will only make matters worse.

As I said before I have no problem with a national ID, don't think it'll be a whole lot of good at catching terrorists and while there is a potential for abuse if we watch out for it we can stop it before it starts, this is still a democracy. I honestly believe that the next administration, whether Republican or Democrat, is going to be forced to modify, replace or remove the Patriot Act because it's starting to get people upset and they're starting to get vocal about it.
I have no problem with Muslim Fundamentalists who believe that my country is the great Satan, and who hate us just because of who we are and what we believe. This is a free world, what you choose to believe is your business, not mine. When these fundamentalists attempt to foist their beliefs about everything from religion and morality to science and politics on the rest of the world through the use of force then we all have a problem. If you look at history you will see that these people have been using violence and conquest to force their beliefs on a non Muslim world. Now we have terrorists who, lacking the courage of their forefathers, kill nuns, burn schools, blow up churches and even mosques that belong to a different sect, bomb embassies, hijack planes, kill thousands of people, even brain wash their own children into becoming suicide bombers because they don't like the way the rest of the world lives or believes. These people are not reasonable, they are not tolerant, they are not rational, the only thing they seem to understand is the use of force and violence. I can forsee a time when the rest of the world, including the Muslims who are reasonable and tolerant, unite to destroy these throwbacks to the dark ages.
Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a rant.

So, you wouldn't care if Iran develops nukes?  Or wouldn't be concerned about who they might sell them to?   


I agree, but what does income tax have to do with the discussion?  I mean, I'd advocate disbanding the IRS and creating a consumption based tax, but again, that's another thread.


And hopefully Angelina Jolie and Jessica Alba will find me attractive and offer me a threeway, but that's not likely either.  Europe is too busy accusing of us being "repressed", "prudish" and "unsophisticated", while the Middle East is too busy accusing us of being an evil, sex filled, homosexual supporting Nation.  (It's like, make up your mind, people!)

no.  you think Iran is going to nuke us?  we'd evaporate them before they even thought of it.  They barely have armed forces, certainly nothing relative to ours.  iran does not want war with the unites states.

are the USSR or CHina worried about Iran's nukes?  they are certainly alot closer to them then we are.  I'm not going to allow dick cheney's paranoia to rule my life.  the muslims want us out of their countries, we should leave.  the cold war is over, there's no reason for us to be there.  we can buy oil from whoever.    Saudi Arabia's offical state relgion is wahabi islam.  they fund wahabi mosques all around the world where terrorists are indoctorinated.  we can't do worse than that.



well, that's how they pay for these things.  welfare, warfare.  all the things politicians do to justify their obsolete existence.  cut that off,  i think they will be much less worried about Iran or special intersts.  I mean, what would all the people who rely on the US governmetn do if it didn't exist?

Any government anywhere can do what they like to keep us "safe", but the terrorists will always find a way to circumvent the rules and bring buildings down using planes.

I think the goal of terrorists isn't to get us to hate certain cultures, it's more insidious than than.  I think their real power has come from the fact that the western world is so scared to scratch it's own arse, they are punishing their own citizens by tightening the ID clamps down.  They are sitting back laughing at how stupid we all are for seeing shadows under every bush and blowing the hell out of it.

Fear and paranoia build on themselves and it will get worse.

In the early 80s, our then Prime Minister tried to pass a law that everyone had to have a National ID Card.  It got voted out by a resounding margin.  Any politician who has since tried to bring up the subject has pretty much been howled out of existence by the public at large and the media.

Any time that law comes back, they can kiss my arse.  Our privacy is already invaded too much and we are not the worst country for it by any means.  I would still like my life to belong to me and not have some underpaid public servant calling up my name on a database whenever they feel like it just to see what I had for breakfast.

 I didn't do 9/11,  why shuold i have to be penalized for it?  they should all give us money as an apology for screwing up so bad that they didn't see theattack coming even with tens of billions of dollars of CIA and whatnot.



they have some machine that takes your picture at an airport and you are naked basically.  it's an x ray machine orf sorts.  what a perfect metaphor for how we have lost our dignity from this

Is this comment consistent with "do away with the income tax?"

Jesse Helms (love him or hate him, he is eminently quotable) once said we can drill for oil just as good through glass as we can through sand.

Thank about that.   :wink:

Flying is a choice not a requirement, if you don't want your picture taken ... don't fly.

As for your other comments about "no taxes" and "give us money" well it just makes my head hurt. But I'll give you a little tip to 'Ulther's Question' ... silica.

ulthar-  it is totally consistent.  they go around p**sing off countries and then hire a bunch of morons at the CIA who can't even do the one thing they are paid to do,  figure out when the next pearl harbor is going to be and prevent it.  read the 9/11commision report, the mistakes they  made are legion .  Clinton didn't want to offend some emir a mile away so he didn't take out bin laden.  bush was more interested in missile defense .  the bottom line is the government is not a meritocracy and we should limit how much trouble they can get us into as much as we can, if not completely. 


cheezeflix- so you want people with dignity to stay home? that's great for the economy!!  makes your head hurt?  I thuoght you were a conservative?  are you some new kind of pro tax republican I haven't heard of?

Because you're not promising to pay... :teddyr:

This is interesting... the North American Union and the "REAL ID":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo) 

Who was talking about a "one world government" on this board recently...??