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Other Topics => Off Topic Discussion => Topic started by: Newt on March 26, 2008, 07:35:16 AM



Title: "Unscientific"
Post by: Newt on March 26, 2008, 07:35:16 AM
The 'Misleading' thread lead me here: titled "Unscientific"
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/unscientific.png)
- From the web comic xkcd by Randall Munroe


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 26, 2008, 09:10:42 AM
I watched one of those shows theother day.  all the scientists were absolutely convinced that famous bigfoot footage was real, which it most assuredly isn't.  they did all this stuff, like hired a runner to run and see if thebigfoot was super fast or something.  it made me more convinced that global warming is junk science


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: frank on March 26, 2008, 09:27:47 AM
I watched one of those shows theother day.  all the scientists were absolutely convinced that famous bigfoot footage was real, which it most assuredly isn't.  they did all this stuff, like hired a runner to run and see if thebigfoot was super fast or something.  it made me more convinced that global warming is junk science

Not everyone wearing a lab coat on TV is a "real" scientist....

Global warming is happening (assuming the usual 5 % error likelihood), the proportion of human activities altering climate change in relation to natural phenomenons is subject to scientific dispute.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: clockworkcanary on March 26, 2008, 09:27:59 AM
I watched one of those shows theother day.  all the scientists were absolutely convinced that famous bigfoot footage was real, which it most assuredly isn't.  they did all this stuff, like hired a runner to run and see if thebigfoot was super fast or something.  it made me more convinced that global warming is junk science


 :bouncegiggle:

Yes, it's a global hoax by those crazy scientists who are somehow faking the accelerated Antarctic Ice breakup:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080326/ap_on_sc/antarctica_collapse;_ylt=AiMOgunEo9YFyy_gnGWsYtys0NUE

And also, that scientific machine you just used to type that message works on magic!


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: clockworkcanary on March 26, 2008, 09:31:57 AM
Not everyone wearing a lab coat on TV is a "real" scientist....

Global warming is happening (assuming the usual 5 % error likelihood), the proportion of human activities altering climate change in relation to natural phenomenons is subject to scientific dispute.

Agreed - there seems to be a world-wide consensus on this (that it is happening).  I mean, the Sun will grow to the size of Earth's orbit so it will happen eventually.  But then if it was on the TV it's gotta be real! <sarcasm>.  I'm sure those Bigfoot believing scientists were real and their studies were peer reviewed!


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: flackbait on March 26, 2008, 09:40:50 AM
Never believe everything you hear and read. Shows like Monster Hunters are stupid in the extreme. But how many people really seriously watch it for more than a few seconds before they realize what trash their watching?

.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: clockworkcanary on March 26, 2008, 09:43:25 AM
Oh and, Lester the sun isn't due to expand to the earths orbit for a billion years or so.

I'm the one who actually said it but I was being facetious.  I'm interested in learning more about this junk science.  Maybe Lester will enlighten us.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: nshumate on March 26, 2008, 10:27:04 AM
all the scientists were absolutely convinced that famous bigfoot footage was real, which it most assuredly isn't.

Why "assuredly"?  Is there some evidence in the footage itself which leads you, by rigorous study, to this assurance, or is it the a priori conviction that Bigfoot isn't real, and therefore the footage is fake?

(Not arguing from the stance of a Bigfoot believer.  I just have trouble with declarations that propositions are "self-evidently" false without that evidence being enumerated.)


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 26, 2008, 10:28:15 AM
I don't know ANYTHING about science.  it just seems like if one were predisposed to believe something it is really easy to use thescientific method to prove it. You should have seen these guys looking in wonderment at "Bigfoot".  same with the area 51 stuff.  

obviously the global warming debate is of a higher grade of scientific argument than the bigfoot provers. i'm just saying, healthy skeptiscism needs to bea part ofany equation

nshumate- I'm prettysure the family of the guy who cashed in on the bigfoot stuff admitted it was a hoax after he died.  I'm not saying I have the proof on hand, but I believe in general it is not given a whole lot of credence, the tape


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: Hammock Rider on March 26, 2008, 10:34:21 AM
Einstein ,Mr. Wizard , Beakman and Zombie Feynman are the only "true" scientists ( in modern times) in the sense that they're in it to expand the frontiers of human learning and knowledge.(And eat brains. Didn't Professor Frink's father have a similar affliction?) Everyone else is a grant hungry statistician.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: clockworkcanary on March 26, 2008, 10:35:59 AM
"healthy skeptiscism needs to be a part of any equation"

Absolutely Lester - any scientist worth her salt would totally agree with you there!  I might just have to give you some karma for that statement.

Some good debate on Global Warming if you're interested:
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ab-atheism&tid=38755


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: clockworkcanary on March 26, 2008, 10:37:56 AM
Speaking of Bigfoot, does anyone remember the skit on "In Living Color" when they kinda mixed the Bigfoot legend with the Elvis sightings?  Elvis was acting like Bigfoot, lurching around upstate Michigan forests making growling noises and attacked the newscaster (played by Jim Carrey).

Found it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iA-HC-tAKU


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: frank on March 26, 2008, 11:03:35 AM
Einstein ,Mr. Wizard , Beakman and Zombie Feynman are the only "true" scientists ( in modern times) in the sense that they're in it to expand the frontiers of human learning and knowledge.(And eat brains. Didn't Professor Frink's father have a similar affliction?) Everyone else is a grant hungry statistician.


One might add Gyro Gearloose and Professor Cuthbert Calculus....

(I take a bow for mentioning Frink`s father - also for provoking the comicesque image of hordes of scientists roaming the streets groaning "Graants! Graaaaaants!" in my mind right now)



Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: nshumate on March 26, 2008, 12:10:03 PM
nshumate- I'm prettysure the family of the guy who cashed in on the bigfoot stuff admitted it was a hoax after he died.  I'm not saying I have the proof on hand, but I believe in general it is not given a whole lot of credence, the tape


Wikipedia has a pretty good survey of the issues around the Patterson-Gimlin footage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterson-Gimlin_film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterson-Gimlin_film)

No mention of any admission of haoxing by Patterson (the dead one).  Gimlin (the live one) denies any complicity in a hoax, but allows the possibility that it could have been a hoax on Patterson's part.

As you can see from the rest of the lengthy entry, there are very divided opinions on the authenticity of what's seen in the footage.

As I said, I don't have an axe to grind on the issue of Bigfoot's reality.  It was simply the "assuredly" which caught my eye, which is often a sign that the speaker is dismissing something out of hand for a priori reasons.  (Not saying that's what you were doing, either; it looks like you've simply gotten bad information as to who admitted what.)

Edit:  Going down through the wikipedia entry, I see there are other people who have claimed to be complicit with Patterson in a hoax.  However, their stories don't jibe; the claims about the gorilla costume, for example, is mutually exclusive of the claims regarding a homemade costume crafted from a horse's skin.  As it stands, the two original witnesses are still Patterson and Gimlin, and neither ever admitted to being part of a hoax.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: Scott on March 26, 2008, 01:18:12 PM
Did someone say Bigfoot? Here's my very own scientific search for Bigfoot last Summer.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cDAWnvkpYsU


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: odinn7 on March 26, 2008, 08:59:03 PM
Holy Crap!

Bill Gates is host of Adventure Theater!

Scott, I expected you to have some Bigfoot monster come out of the woods and chase you...

I liked the part where your dog picked up on the peculiar smell...LOL!

Karma for that.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: trekgeezer on March 26, 2008, 09:11:55 PM
At last Sco....er Conan, you finally reran the bigfoot movie!! At last I can get some decent sleep!

I hope you know we're only kidding Scott.



Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: Captain Tars Tarkas on March 26, 2008, 09:39:43 PM
I don't know ANYTHING about science.  it just seems like if one were predisposed to believe something it is really easy to use thescientific method to prove it.
Not really.  It could make them blind to alternatives, but that would be exposed during the peer review process, repeated trials, or just plain alternative theories.  That's assuming their hypothesis works in the first place, and not all hypotheses work.

 
Quote
You should have seen these guys looking in wonderment at "Bigfoot".  same with the area 51 stuff. 


So you aren't the least bit skeptical they handpicked random kooks to be scientists who are into bigfoot, but you're all ready to dismiss global warming because some guy talked about bigfoot on tv.  And people wonder why no one listens to libertarians.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: flackbait on March 26, 2008, 11:40:33 PM
Oh and, Lester the sun isn't due to expand to the earths orbit for a billion years or so.

I'm the one who actually said it but I was being facetious.  I'm interested in learning more about this junk science.  Maybe Lester will enlighten us.
I'm amazed that you actually picked that up because i deleted that 20 seconds later. Anyways sorry lester for that mistake. And I was curious what lester was going to say


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 27, 2008, 10:05:06 AM
tars-  so there is no debate allowed regarding global warming?

how about acid rain? 


anyone remember acid rain?  do you know how many times they've said the world was running out of oil?

scientific consensus can be criticized.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: clockworkcanary on March 27, 2008, 10:22:41 AM
"tars-  so there is no debate allowed regarding global warming?"

I fail to see where Tars said or indicated anything of the kind.  Most studies done worldwide indicate a great likelihood of it happening; you are free to challenge it but be prepared for your notion to be scrutinized without solid support.  Just because a few hand-picked ultra conservative so-called scientists paid by industrialists deny it doesn't make it so. 

What's in more heavy debate is whether man is accelerating it and if we can do anything about it...and if it's too late (or the question is, when will it be too late).  I'm not sure how much you know about Astronomy, but Venus is a good example of greenhouse gases and global warming gone wild in the long term.  Not what I want for my home ...it's where I keep all my stuff!

"scientific consensus can be criticized."

Indeed.  Science is the observation of natural phenomena.  That's it.  It's self correcting and always self-testing and updating based on new information.  Same cannot be said about dogma (in fact, many were killed for challenging said dogma ...you know, that one particular guy who was executed by the Church for suggesting the Earth revolves around the Sun).  Dogma is fixed; you're not allowed to change it and it can never be challeneged; science and scientific theories should always be under constant scrutiny and self correction (as should dogma).

So a side question, are you as hostile towards dogma since it's not allowed to be questioned or scrutinized at all?  Might be a question you should ask yourself.  Just like the creation vs Evolution - one has 0% support; the other has 99% but many people are much more hostile towards the latter (not that there aren't some who are hostile to the former).

You know how scientific notions are found to be faulty?  By using Science.  Scientists are just people; people make mistakes; other people use the scientific method to find flaws and update information.  It's the best process we have so far. 

I think you might want to learn more about the scientific method and how it works (as you have indicated you don't know anything about it) before critizing how you "think" it works.  I'm not sure you quite understand how the peer review process works, the difference between a notion, a hypothesis, a theory, and a law, for example.

And this begs the question: why is it that the ultra right wing is so hostile towards science, education, and the environment?  Because you know, God and Science aren't mutually exclusive; if God exists then Science is just how she "did" it. 

I mean, I understand why ultra right wing politicians disdain education; it's easier for the masses to work crummy jobs for low pay if they don't know any better. I understand those same politicians being anti-environment since their so cozy with those who profit greatly from destroying the environment; but I have yet to understand why the common lay person would adopt the same world view <shrugs>.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 27, 2008, 10:44:05 AM
I'm not hostile to science. 

really, my non scientific objection to global warming hysteria comes more for their predictable anti capitalist. coercive big government prescriptions  than any of their well funded studies.

I'm not anti education, I'm against the state.  the department of education doesn't teach anyone anything.  teachers do.

""scientific consensus can be criticized."

Indeed."

okay then :thumbup:


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: Scott on March 27, 2008, 02:48:20 PM
Holy Crap!

Bill Gates is host of Adventure Theater!

Scott, I expected you to have some Bigfoot monster come out of the woods and chase you...


I know.........I just wish I had a big hairy suit. I would have borrowed a suit from a neighbor if somone had one. Better yet I could have just filmed some distance shots of a hairy neighbor. Instead of Bigfoot in the treelines it would be me filming a long haired neighbor sprinkling their yards from the distant woods. :smile:

At last Sco....er Conan, you finally reran the bigfoot movie!! At last I can get some decent sleep!

I hope you know we're only kidding Scott.



Rest is important. Been looking for an excuse to rerun my masterpiece.  :bouncegiggle:


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: Joe the Destroyer on March 28, 2008, 04:39:27 PM
tars-  so there is no debate allowed regarding global warming?

how about acid rain? 


anyone remember acid rain?  do you know how many times they've said the world was running out of oil?

scientific consensus can be criticized.

Let's also not forget the age old "we're going into another ice age debate" from the 60's and 70's.  That one's resurfacing as well.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: nshumate on March 28, 2008, 05:06:48 PM


Let's also not forget the age old "we're going into another ice age debate" from the 60's and 70's.  That one's resurfacing as well.

Simultaneous to global warming?  It's a miracle!

I think with all of the looming catastrophes currently confronting us, sure to confront us in the future, or having confronted us in the past (through which we somehow emerged unscathed), there are two facts to keep in mind:

1) Mild inconvenience and neutral change don't get headlines; earthshaking catastrophe and peril for your children ("Won't somebody think of the children?!") do.  If there is nothing to worry about, we will invent something.

2) Science as delivered by politicians, political activists, extremists, fundamentalists, or demagogues is already compromised beyond unexamined acceptance.


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 29, 2008, 08:35:16 AM
I reject terrorism hysteria  and global warming hysteria and try to reject economic hysteria but it's getting hard on the last one.  I mean, 516 TRILLION dollars in derivatives  are there even that many grains of sand?


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: flackbait on March 30, 2008, 11:01:38 PM
I reject terrorism hysteria  and global warming hysteria and try to reject economic hysteria but it's getting hard on the last one.  I mean, 516 TRILLION dollars in derivatives  are there even that many grains of sand?
What do you mean reject economic hysteria?
If you don't the econmies bad than try to find a job in Michigan I dare you!


Title: Re: "Unscientific"
Post by: lester1/2jr on March 31, 2008, 09:19:29 AM
well, as I said, it's getting harder to remain unhysterical.