Badmovies.org Forum

We had some odd behavior on the karma front lately when I looked.  Appears to have been some collusion between posters.  I sent off some emails to some accounts, asking about the behavior.  The intended function of the karma system was not to carry on any sort of agenda, or to snipe at someone you disagreed with.

The karma function is removed.  I've no time for policing juvenile behavior.  From now on, if we agree or disagree, we can type it out, and stay civil.  If that is not possible, myself or a moderator will fix the situation.

Dang, I kinda liked that; oh well, to those pricks that were attacking each other with boos...

YOU SUCK!!!  :hatred: 

It was more along the lines of a few members gangbanged a single member's karma.

Well that's a bummer, some people's kids I guess.

BTW, if anyone ever says you never learn anything from bad movies, point out that Andrew made me learn what "Collusion" meant. I looked it up on the 'net.

Looks more like some patsy accounts, some collusion, and it was not aimed at just one person.  This is not the first time I've had to address an issue like this - in fact, exactly like this, and by different member(s) the other times. 

I will enable the karma function once a working system is available that logs who gave what karma to who, so that someone knows what post caused the karma change and who did it.  Right now, looking for irregularities requires me to manually check the database.

So did he before he used it. :teddyr: :tongueout:


(http://zhorkow.com/smileys/lol-065.gif)

Guess I haven't been paying attention, my hasn't really changed much in the last couple of weeks, I think I lost one and gained one. I don't know, I don't watch it that close.

Oh, well some people get to whiny about karma anyway.

Lol, ,that's good, , Kar, , , , , , , ,  Oh, , , nevermind. . .

Just curious...

If the karma feature is reinstated, will our karma be reset to zero or will it be back where it was?
I had something like 246 karma and for most of it, I had to work hard and write creatively to get it.

It isn't fair to all the rest of us who use the karma function like it's supposed to be used.  We lost it because of the actions of a couple of idiots and they should be punished for it...not us. 
Essentially, you've punished everyone on the entire board.
(at least that's how I see it)

Oh yes, I guess you haven't paid attention... but you have paid attention well enough to describe yer own recent history... I noticed you lost one and gained one recently (wasn't me, sweet potato, I had made a vow to myself, and even you, as you may recall that I'd not do such a thing) I don't do that sneaky sh*t... but anyway, I was the latest apparent complainant, so must assume your criticism is directed at me.  G'bye karma! 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqP3wT5lpa4

good. The karma thing only seemed to make people mad, with is dumb, because ......well, it an internet forum! It's not like they slapped your gramma or anything! Some people are silly. Silly, dumb people.

I just noticed the karma is gone. I already miss it. I enjoyed getting it, and I enjoyed giving it out. I keep reflexively going for the 'applaud' button when I read clever posts.

I didn't just find it fun when I gained a bunch of points (usually without any clue what they were for), but also found it somewhat comforting when my points didn't drop after posting something I though might have crossed a line. I look at it as a tool.

I agree that the system needs to fixed to prevent any shenanigans. However, I would prefer if only Andrew had access to who gave what what karma. Some might not like the anonymity, but I think it ensures an honest response. Tells me if somebody liked or disliked something, even if they wouldn't tell it to me personally. With all due respect to Menard, suggesting that someone who posts negative karma is a p***y is, to me, no less a defence mechanism than hiding behind an anonymous 'boo' button. I'm not so quick to discount criticism that goes unspoken. The sentiment is still there, even if someone wouldn't express it to my face. To keep that sentiment hidden doesn't make sense to me. I see it as denial. People don't stop being p**sed off just because they find it intimidating to say something.

I recognize the need to prevent what has happened recently, because it renders the tool useless, not to mention being really slimy behaviour. A system such as Andrew suggests would make it apparent if anyone has a large axe to grind, or a poor sense of humour. And I wouldn't mind if each member had access to a rundown of individual posts and how much karma they received. Would save a lot of noodle scratching.

In the end, I have to say I agree with Ash. I think some of us are being deprived of a fun and somewhat useful tool.

I'm not all that saddened.  I was never crazy about the karma thing as it was.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5LeLAELIxKY

Ash and AndyC said it for me too: I'll miss the karma function.  Most of the time it was the only direct feedback I got.
I understand why it had to go and I'm not arguing the decision.  Posting just won't be the same is all.   :bluesad:

Yeah I was for the karma thing as well.  I think it made people feel appreciated for their input.  Although I understand we had a few morons who abused it giving negative karma for no apparent reason.   Most of us here are responsible and intelligent so I hope we can get it back some day.  Either way my life won't revolve around karma with or without it.  At least in this forum anyhow.   Anyhow, thanks to anyone who gave me good karma and I hope I returned it for one of your posts.

Well that's nice, I was at 99.   All those attempts to be amusing and helpful, in the hopes of one day achieving the magic triple digit karma, all hope dashed.  Fine.  Now you'll see the real me.  Stupid, unhelpful, posting drunk in my underwear at ten in the morning.  Not even using the spell checker!

The database fields containing the karma are unchanged.  Just the interface to see and affect it is turned off.

The karma system is intended to be a fun thing.  It also helps to remind us to say, "Hey, good post.  Thanks." to others.  However, in the space of 6 months it has been systematically abused three times.  I've already banned 2 accounts permanently due to this round, and there might be more bans coming.

Here is the problem with the current system:  I cannot reliably prevent abuse that is disruptive to the good of the overall community.  By design, SMF's karma log clears itself at regular intervals - only the awarded karma (the -1 or +1 total; not who awarded it, when it was awarded, or anything else) is maintained in the database as a permanent record.  

Unless I check the karma log regularly, I cannot prevent further abuse.  And I do consider giving every poster who posted in a thread negative karma abuse, especially when it appears collusion or even patsy accounts were involved.  

I cannot check the log regularly.  I am barely keeping up with my family and USMC commitments, and they are not going to abate any time in the near future.  Until a karma system is available that will help to prevent abuse, the function is disabled.  There is a mod that looks promising, but it is not approved for our version of SMF, and would require testing and me modifying it before it could be used.  Again, right now I do not have the time for that effort.  

More than anything, the karma is there to remind us to say, "Good post." or to provide feedback for behavior that is "good" or "bad."  When you get down to it, we all get to know each other through our posts.  When I look at you, Ash, I do not see a karma total.  I see you, as I have grown to know you over the years.

Andrew, I was just kidding about the whole not using the spell checker thing  :teddyr:

I do have to say though, it does suck.  Apparently this is all about political posts?  People post about politics, other people have made it clear they don't like that, so they continue to post about politics.  Then they complain when their karma goes down, so teacher takes everybody's karma away.  Seems to me that if you don't want your karma to go down, you could exercise a littel self-control and post that stuff somewhere else.  Go over to a political board and post about bad movies all the time, see what they think of you there.

I sign off and go to bed early, and when I come back, what do I see? Shenanigans! Hooligans lollygagging with their tomfoolery!  :tongueout:
I guess I had been staying away from the more volatile discussions; I hadn't noticed that anyone had been abusing the system. Sorry to see it happen, especially here; as I have said before, this is the only forum I contribute to regularly (or at least I hope I contribute), mainly because of the level of civility. I always tried to let a person know when I applauded them (I don't recall ever booing anyone). Ah, well, back to practicing written communication skills...

And on a side note, Andrew, I appreciate all the time and effort you put into this site above and beyond all of your other responsibilities; I don't know how you manage. I'm sorry that some kiddies can't play nice and that grown-ups occasionally have to step in and yell the internet equivalent of "Okay! Everybody out of the pool!" Anyway, do what you've got to do, and meta-karma to you for your efforts.

I'm glad I get so much respect, then surreptitiously get called a p***y. :tongueout:

Bluntly:

If someone does not have the balls to speak their mind, voting anonymously behind someone's back makes them no less of a p***y than what they are; regardless of what kind of sympathy you want to caress them with.

People will overcome intimidation if the ability to hide behind something is not there; they will never overcome it so long as the ability to hide continues to exist.


Love ya, babe...mwha. :wink:

Doesn't that just sound a little...uh...Mafioso?

Kind of comes off as saying that some want to hide behind the karma system as a punishment for those who actually speak their minds.

BTW, nice use of the spell checker. :tongueout:

I'm at work and I've only skimmed the posts so sorry if this has been brought up.  Is there a way to disable negative karma and only have positive karma points? If possible, this could very well be a happy medium.  For example, if you don't like a post, don't give them karma and voice your opinion. 

I much prefer the concept of 'if you have something to say, say it'. :tongueout:

Welcome to what many establishments for small children call fair, sorry I watched a comedian last night who mentioned not being able to go to recess because one kid couldn't read.  :bouncegiggle:


Wow, you do a lot for this thread  :cheers:


That would get karma, ooooooooooooh, curses!  Seriously, shenanigans is one of my favorite words and I do not lie about that, so it would get karma.


Right now when I look at Ash I see Godzilla.


In the end I suppose until we can track down these SOBs and torture them with reading really long posts we cannot have vengance.

Poor Wyrewizard...

My final tally = 90 :)

Again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y75iORH3qS0

Or from reading posts like this, they're not keen on receiving a backlash of hate and insult, yet they feel the need to use the system that is there to show their response. I remember when you deleted your account: Someone dropped a boo on you, and you got insulting and stormed out. You said you wanted an explanation, and the first thing 'I' thought was "Who would bother?, this has very little chance of not getting ugly, what adult wants to go through all that?". This should not be taken this serious, and as I see it, it rarely is, I've not been dinged for any of my stupid comments or retarded spelling/grammar. 

I do remember when I first came to this board, I clicked on either a + or a - Karma button simply because I didn't know what it was. To whoever that was: I'm sorry, and I appreciate the fact you didn't take it personally. If I could figure out who that was, I'd undo it, but either way, I'm sure everything is OK.

Personally, I feel I can, upon receiving neg, look back and see how I've been offensive, or violated the rules, etc. If I can't find that, then BFD, I'm just not going to worry.


Was he back?

Personally, I think the WW situation was a bit unique: The guy repeatedly insulted the entire group as a whole, While it became apparent through his own words that he didn't like b-movies to begin with. One can conclude that all he was here for was to insult others. The Karma system only allowed Karma once a day or so, and he was dishing out group insults much more often than that.

Try ten someones.

I have already, and quite unnecessarily explained what happened, and if people want to continue to believe their pre-conceived notions either out of inability to read, lack of concentration when reading, or just plain stupidity, I don't owe an explanation to anybody.

You just made my point in reference to someone trying to avoid insult, and, the number of negatives that were left wasn't the only point I was making.

I should specify that the reply I made, though to your post, was not aimed at you; it was a generalization. My apologies if I gave you the impression otherwise.

It seems as though several members have already made comments that my leaving had to do with the karma issue, and, being that the karma is presently gone, that somehow means that I can become a member again; neither is the case.

I came on this board and provided an explanation for the sole purpose that Andrew had thought that I was upset with him, and that was not the case, and it was my responsibility to clear it up.

I did that, and anybody is simply going to believe what they want to believe; and it's not going to make an ounce of difference one way or another.

Hmmm... hindsight is 20/20.  If you weren't angry with Andrew (which he suspected at the time) and you weren't upset about getting knocked by "ten" members, then why can't you rejoin us?  Afterall, you are a member in everyway but in name. 

I never said I wasn't upset at getting knocked ten times (I doubt it was ten separate members) over a troll. There was a lot more going on and it sure as hell didn't help; but I explained that and really don't need to explain myself any further.

Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves whatever you all want to believe.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if it were ten different people, but, as you say, feel free to discuss whatever you want to believe.

Yes, Menard. Join us. There is no greater healer than UNITY. Join uuusss....JOOOIIINNNUUUSSSS. Do not fight uuusss....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zWAPTZ4KmUU

More of a hypocrite than a p***y, really.  :twirl:

I do appreciate that the phrase "with all due respect" usually means that something decidedly disrespectful is coming, but in this case, it only means you are OK, but I disagree with you on this.

You see, Menard, your position on criticism reminds me of my first editor. The guy was opinionated as hell, to the point where he was essentially run out of the business. His biggest problem was dealing with differing opinions. If readers did what they were supposed to do, and put their criticism into letters for publication, he would always add his own response. These people would be ripped to shreds in a notation that would, in many cases, be longer than the letter it was responding to, and a lot more personal. He owned the paper, and he always got the last word, until, as I mentioned, he was run out of town after about 25 years of this. That part is complicated and beside the point, but long before that, people just stopped writing unless they agreed with him or happened to be writing about some bland subject that wasn't worth debating.

The point here, and ghouck has expressed something similar, is that one cannot demand that others express themselves openly, while at the same time making them afraid to do so. That is the act of a coward and a bully, and yes, a hypocrite.

I'm sitting here thinking I'm putting myself in line for a huge round of insults just for posting this, but I also think the point needs to be made. Bear in mind that I stick my neck out in print for a living, so this is not suggesting the average poster will overcome intimidation so easily for the sake of making a point. What you have created, Menard, is a situation where people are afraid to offer you the open criticism you demand.

People will always find a way to abuse features, it seems :-/. So somebody was running around randomly booing people :lookingup: That's not a sign of immaturity, surely. Or was it a glitch? I went from 32 to something like 22 in a minute. Weird.

I had no idea this was such a hot button issue, much less that it was being abused.  Then again I rarely paid much attention to karma and rarely ever used the feature.  I mean you reply to a message then have to go find it again to give karma.  That's just too much >YAAaaaWwwN< work.

 :wink:


Are you suggesting their is something wrong with our system of anonymous voting?  Hmm.  Funny how the RL issues of voting machines that don't leave paper trails is much the same problem that Bad Movies had with Karma.  There's irony for you.

 :cheers:

This was my thought precisely.  Seems like no one has problems with positive karma; it's only the "boo" function that causes people to sometimes act like children.  How about it, Andrew, is that a software option?

I'm lots of things; probably some of them are even bad.

Seems like standing up for oneself or others has become bad.

Despite what all I may or may not be, I am not the admin of this forum; I'm not even a member.

A comparison of me to an opinionated editor may well be fine, but the main variable here is that this is not my forum; I hold nothing over anybody else who comes on here, and even less being, as I mentioned, that I am not a member.

Hypocrite?

A$$hole? (goddamn censoring)

Jerk?

I'm certain that if we all put our heads together that we could come up with a never ending list of words to describe me.

If I state my opinion about something, well, that is me being me, and being a person; whether any of you want to give me that particular credit or not.

If someone thinks it is unfair of me to state my opinion and call anonymous snipes pussies, I'm wondering how so? I'm in no position to do anything to them.

If someone takes offense to me calling them a p***y, being that I only used the term void of identity, then how did they come to decide that I meant them?


Sheeesh....I started quite a few sentences consecutively with if; poor composition on my part.

Unfortunately, it is not.  The available options do not give the ability to restrict karma to positive only.


You were one of the targets of the latest abuse problem.

I just want to point out the silver lining, now we can say whatever we want without people being able to punish us through a points system; don't push it though, Andrew can still ban you.

Menard, you might have no official status on this board, but you are a very active member in all ways that count. I'd even go as far as calling you a self-appointed mod, meaning that as a compliment, of course. Standing up and expressing yourself the way you do doesn't make you bad - far from it - but it does make you considerably more than "not even a member." You might not be signed up, but you have status on this board nonetheless.

Personally, I've had no problem with you. I wasn't around for the final Wyrewizard blow-up, but seeing as I couldn't stand the little twerp, I probably would have expressed disappointment that anyone would criticize you for unloading on him. You call a troll a troll. What's not to support?

I also have to agree that you had every right to be mad at seeing your karma drop as far as it did. Even if karma meant nothing to you, the intention of the culprits was to do harm, however petty. Guys who hand out a lot of bad karma and don't speak their minds are pussies. On that, we agree. In my business, I've had to deal with bad gossip in a community where I lived and worked. Comes with the job, but it's still disgusting.

The only point I have to make is that you are not the guy to be telling people to express their criticism up front. You might not believe it, Menard, but the prospect of arguing with you is scary. The expectation I have is no holds barred and no quarter given, with a generous dollop of biting sarcasm. I'm not suggesting you change, but you need to realize that most people don't want set themselves up for that.

I agree with you, but what you advocate would be difficult where you are concerned. I also just want to emphasize again that people are no less p**sed off if they don't express it. Getting rid of the karma only masks a problem I'd rather be aware of. I'm not taking any sides here. I just want people to be honest with themselves.

I guess it wouldn't be karma if it didn't cut both ways. Still, paying small compliments was the most practical use of the system. You could just go through and hand out karma for every clever comment without cluttering up the board with a lot of compliments that aren't quite worth making a post. I used to hand karma out like candy, but only posted a compliment when I really, really enjoyed something. Without the positive karma, I lose the ability to pay those little compliments.

I agree with you on this front Andy C.  I think thats what made the karma system cool was knowing someone thought something you said was entertaining or insightful to them.  I neither am going to go through and post something like "Wow Andy C, you have amused me with your response" every time you say something funny.  Nor would I say it out loud if I talked to you on the street.  As for this board, it would just result in personal conversations on a board full of contributors.   

Granted I agree with those who feel that negative karma should be replaced by "speaking your mind" in so many words.  Still, out of how many of the thousands of posts made is there really such a confrontation showing up?  (Well aside the political posts.)  Most of the posts consists of stuff that we like and people's feelings on the subject which are most of the time well though out and respectful responses.  Although some may disagree, there is a lot of respect among the users of this board and maturity.  I don't come here for a war of words and have no clue why anyone else would. 

The positive karma was simple much like a laugh in real life.  Thats what I liked about it. 

There was a store manager in a retail with which I worked that I respected very much. One of his management techniques was what I refer to as 'a line in the sand' (call it 'this far and no further if you like).

The first time I approached him to get something, I forget what, he bluntly and almost abrasively denied it.

Later, he approached me, quite differently this time with a characteristic smile and charming attitude.

I had realized, at some point, what he was doing: he would first set a boundary, then invite you over that line, so long as you know where the drawing line is.

I am not comparable to him in his technique, but I do have a tendency to set boundaries up front. Of course, there is a thin line that must not be crossed; and that is humanity must be present, or else it is just abuse.

Sometimes I will p**s someone off (sometimes it happens a lot), to get a better idea of where they stand. Whether it is being p**sed off or being enamored with something, when someone is emotional they are passionate, and they are generally honest in their passion which gives me a better idea of where they stand.

I have used this technique on this board...err...at least once (ahem) to find out where someone is coming from. I did this in a thread about a particular film where I disagreed with them, but I wanted to know more of the basis of their opinion so I pushed them; and then smoothed things out when I got what I wanted.

Andrew just took it, and stated so, that sometimes I come off with too strong of an opinion up front. Sometimes I do, and sometimes I'm working the conversation; but you'll never know which one it is.

One thing I never do is manipulate someone for my own entertainment. To me, that devalues a person to simply something less, and is simply lacking in humanity. WyreWizard and Lester are both good at starting something for their own entertainment. At least Lester does contribute in other areas (I was going to say something else, but I'll leave it at that).

People, though, are not born to be pussies or a$$holes (goddamn censoring again). People adapt. If given an easy way out of something, and it works for them, they will often take it; some of us simply prefer the challenge of overcoming something.

The karma system did not exist on the forum for years and people expressed themselves; perhaps not to the degree with which I express myself, but they nonetheless expressed themselves. Ash was always good at pushing buttons, and everybody was always good at pushing back; now they push a Boo or Applaud button instead.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'll certainly acknowledge credence in your opinion, but i believe that several people who would otherwise use the karma system would be likely to comment without one.

This may sound contrary to what I have been saying, though, but I do also believe that if the karma system is reinstated that it should have the option of plus and negative votes and that it should not require a comment if someone so chooses. It's just my opinion that someone has the right to both express dissent, and to do it anonymously if they so choose.

Saul D. Alinsky would have been proud of that last statement. :wink:

True enough. I think we can agree that the karma system is an easy option for someone who might otherwise say nothing, but it's also a lazy option for someone who might otherwise say more.  :cheers:

So, without any chance to improve our karma in this board, will we still have to be b-movie-lovers in our next lives???

(anyone feel free to move this to the random thoughts post)

And I feel the same way about others on this board.
When I get ready to read someone's post or thread, I don't judge them by their total karma.  I judge them by what they've written now and in the past.  (maybe "judge" isn't the right word)

I think the karma feature is more for us to look at ourselves.  Kind of like a mirror to reflect how others see us.
It serves as a gauge to let me know if I'm doing poorly or great here on the board.

---

I've been hanging around here for almost 8 years now and for most of that time, the karma function was not available.
But since its introduction, it has become an important tool that I enjoy using.  :smile:

Remember when you first added the karma function?  I hated it! 
The thought of people dinging my karma points away because I wrote something that they didn't like was infuriating to me.  Over time I gradually learned to appreciate the karma system.  Like I mentioned above, it helped me determine if I was on the right or wrong track and definitely helped to steer me in the right direction.

Now that it's been taken away, the forum just doesn't feel the same...   :bluesad:

I confess to "smiting" everyone on a certain misplaced political thread three times in 18 hours; also to calling in one of my friends from another forum to do some smiting there. (He declares no hard feelings for the ban, Andrew. He doesn't do much posting these days anyway.) All the same, I think the reaction has hurt more than helped. (I didn't get any letter, by the way. Did you send me one?)

I ask this understanding from all of you: I've been in flame wars on other boards, and they tend to bring out the worst in me. Striking at ratings always seemed to me a good substitute for long rants that only bump the thread and keep the hatred burning. I'm not into censorship and trying to control what other people see or do not see, but I do like having some form of "bozo filter" and on here that's what the glorified popularity contest known as the karma rating has been. All things considered, if karma is not reinstated, I nevertheless think a post rating or ignore function would continue to encourage civility.

Yes, I also sent you an email about the issue, because I try and allow people to explain their side of things.  I was checking my email and the forum this morning one last time before taking further action.

Pretty sure I know which of the two accounts I just banned was your friend, and he had not posted anything since December 2007.  His email address was also invalid, meaning I banned the account as soon as the email I sent him bounced.  In any case, did he believe I would react in some other fashion to the behavior?

Your friend's account was also generating a large number of errors related to posting while not logged in.  If he does not know what that was happening, I would suspect some sort of malware on the computer.

The karma system should never be viewed as a popularity contest.  I think that Darksider said it best in comparing the positive karma to a laugh.  It does not define who we are to each other.  It should never become something that overshadows the real goal:  trading knowledge, getting to know each other.

I appreciate the fact that you are willing to publicly state your part in the issue.  However, it was still a breach of trust, and something you knew was an abuse of the system.  I am emailing this response to you, as I am also banning your account for 10 days. 

Andrew, right now I'm seeing just an applause button for everyone, does this work?  I don't want to accidently knock a persons karma out or something, still, KARMA'S BACK!!!

p.s. That is a fitting punishment I think, especially considering Inyarear is a regular on the forum. :thumbup:

I started working on a fix for this last night.  Here is the fix:  the only karma allowed now is positive.  I'm doing something else to prevent abuse of that, meaning to allow me to spot any abuse.

Something I want to point out one last time is that the karma function should never define us to each other, or who is better.  It is just, as Darksider said, the equivalent of a laugh or other personal interaction we would naturally recognize.

My overwhelming use of karma was in the humorous captions threads.  Whenever someone made me chuckle out loud, I'd reach for the "applaud" button.  (Quite a few went to AndyC, by the way).  Those threads could get quite cluttered if everytime someone chuckled they posted a "thanks for the laugh."    

I used negative karma exactly once, when someone made a tasteless joke about a fellow board member.  I admit I used the ability to express disapproval anonymously as a substitute to calling him out publicly.  Maybe that would have been a better option; maybe it would have just started a pointless round of flaming.

Anyway, the karma function is not the heart and soul of the board.  If Andrew's judgment is that it's more trouble than it's worth, I'm cool with that, as I'm sure everyone else is.

EDIT: Oops.  Looks like my post is irrelevant already.  Karma to Andrew for fixing the karma problem!

In that case, karma to Andrew for doing so much.

I was going to post that I thought there was a mod for SMF that allowed positive karma only, there was also a mod I believe that allowed both positive and negative and that negative require a reason. I know there is a another forum I go to that had that function but I now only has positive karma. There is also a mod for admin to track karma a little better, but you probably already know that.

Honestly, I think it's a reflection of society that people only want "atta-boys" and never a "aw-sh!t" even if it's not a reflection of the real world. As you know from being in the Marines as I know it takes 100 atta-boys to negate 1 aw-sh!t.   

But we live in a world that require everyone be ego stroked endlessly and it's just gotten ridiculous, much like that story I posted in weird news about a school play having 25 leads and no supporting actors. What has happened to this world? Sometimes you don't win.     

Andrew,

Thank you for reinstating the karma!   :smile:

I have to agree with Cheeze...
Negative karma should be allowed.
Like it was before.
We're all adults here.  (well, most of us are)
I think we can handle it.

If someone does what Inyarear did, ban them for a certain amount of time.
Make sure everyone knows that abuse of the karma system will not be tolerated. 
Is there any way the moderators can monitor the karma function?  Or is that only available to you?


What made you change your mind?

I agree with you on the broader societal principle, but---it's just a message board, and one with a light-hearted mission.  I don't see why it has to reflect the harsh realities of the "real  world."

This is a compromise.  Negative karma should be allowed, but I do not have an ability to track changes now.  I'm out of time with working on this problem at the moment.  My thought was that an only positive karma system should be less prone to abuse, as the issues I've tackled before have all been tied to negative karma.

Quite honestly, I have come to look upon the karma system and be unhappy.  It has been too open to abuse, and thereby causing too much strife.  However, there presently is not any good solution for this.  What is needed is a system that also tracks what post generated the karma, who gave it, and when.  Then you have full disclosure, which should prevent abuse and provide better feedback to the person getting the karma.

If I disagree with someone, I am not the type to hit the boo button.  I type out my disagreement.  As was said, giving good karma is just a shortcut that prevents a thread being full of "Ha!" or "Good point!"

Also, this install of SMF has a lot of modifications I have applied.  Quite often, to install an upgrade or modification requires me to manually make the changes.  It is very time intensive, and can be annoying as heck.

Although I don't care for the action as it is basically backstabbing, and something a conservative would do :tongueout:, I think the admission is upstanding and I'm impressed.

I agree.
I gave Inyarear karma for being honest and owning up to his mistake.   :thumbup:
It was the right thing to do.  (for both me and him)

No it ain't.

If it were just a message board, then there would be hundreds just like this one out there; and there is not.

Problems come from those who think this is just a message board (not directed at you, Rev) and they don't care about a place where the rest of us come to enjoy the company of others; and, maybe, have an occasional friendly squabble :tongueout:. Since it's nothing special to them, they want to trash it and the members in it; and that's what happened with the abuse of the karma system.

I thought that might be the case, as I knew there was a number of mod's for these version of SMF, but I was aware that you made tweaks to it there for making a mod install a little more tricky.

Cheers to that and this seems to be the best, IMHO, way to look at this issue.  If someone says something that ticks you off, form a rebutal and post it.  Keep the karma for the simple things people say or do that make your day. 

First, I should thank Andrew for having to deal with this poop and taking a lot of time to accomodate all of us.   :thumbup:

Yeh, give the culprit a point, reward him.  :lookingup: 

Don't be so impressed.  Inyarear's back was up against the wall. 

You ask for understanding?  If you were to review any exchange between you and I, you will find I have always been civil, but you are not, including insulting me because I waded in late on parts of a discussion of the now infamously locked thread, and I wasn't even one of the major contributors.  You also denied the "good trick" of "smiting" my karma as many times as you did in a news item thread in which I offered no opinion.  Since you've come forward only in the wake of discoverey of your deed, I half expected you to exclaim: "I am not a crook...!" 
Here's a link to your denial, anyone here can decide for themselves...
http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,119531.0.html (http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,119531.0.html)
...that Inyarear is a SNEAK. 

I am not suggesting that one go this route, but the Slashdot "mod" system answers part of what you are asking for there.

For those that are not familiar with it, on Slashdot (a tech oriented geek forum), each message is "moderated."  Each post starts with a base score, 2 I think.  Mods can score a post such things as Funny, Interesting, Insightful which causes an increase in score by 1 point.  A message maxes out at 5 points.

Likewise, Mods can decrease the score of a post by modding it such things as Troll or Flamebait.

So, it would take at least three separate Mods to +1 a post for it to get a score of +5.  Part of the beauty of this system is that each user can set up a "Show posts by Score" filter, and show ONLY those posts that have a score greater than that value.

Users with "Excellent" karma get "Mod Points" periodically.  You get 5 Mod points at a time, meaning you get to score 5 posts when you get points.  You get "Excellent" karma by posting posts that get +5 scores - so in effect, the GOOD contributors get to perpetuate good scoring posts.  You cannot mod yourself OR any post in a thread in which you have posted.

Then there is Meta-Moderation - where you "agree" or "disagree" with the moderation values given by other mods.  This is to keep people from modding good posts "Flamebait" for example, just because they disagree with it.

It is a complicated system and it has its flaws like any other.  But, we could do something SIMILAR by having "karma" per post, not per user.  Imagine a system where we "applaud" or "boo" posts, and each message has its own score.

When you see something you like, "applaud" it.  There's no ambiguity about which message you typed that got you applauded.  Same with boo-ing, but I'm in the boo-ing should be used VERY sparingly camp so I don't focus on it in my discussion.

There's still the problem of WHO applauded, but maybe that's less important if we make the focus CONTENT centric rather than USER centric.  Applaud or Boo the User and it can ALWAYS look at least a little like a popularity contest.

Though I thought the admission was ballsy (though the action certainly was not :lookingup:) I don't find myself disagreeing with you. He did deny the sniping when you took him to task.

Conservatives are often criticizing "entitlements," and interestingly INyourREAR acts like he's entitled.  And no one noticed the swipe that INyourREAR took yet again at those he disagrees with... or thinks he disagrees with... "bozo filter."  :lookingup:  Who's BOZO now?  Let's give INyourREAR karma for slipping in yet another insult, thinking he has the authority to judge those he dislikes, upending the board, and sneakily going about his dishonest ignore-the-rules-screw-common-decency activities.  He's not about truth; he's about agenda.     :thumbdown:

First of all, kudos to Andrew for not losing his temper with us bunch. I think I would have.

The karma thing was a fun toy to fiddle around with. I for myself liked the idea of granting karma points to people without them knowing where it came from, and if I have had the chance, I would have booed someone in the same spirit (I never stumbled on a post so insulting I felt the necessity to do so - although there may be such posts. However, I mainly stick to the threads I like).

If I'm correct, the idea of karma is, that you get positive karma when you behave in a certain way. You get bad karma if you behave different. The is no divine being granting you karma, you are responsible yourself. Although there might be rules for improving your chance to get positive karma, basically it happens by chance from time to time. In my opinion, the community here was a good substitution for that (hey, how many times did you wake up in the morning being a earthworm or woodlouse and wondered why - if you had a brain to wonder, that is).

Ahm, wandered off the trail a bit here, sorry. Got to go anyway, halftime is over (for all non-Europeans, it's EUROPEAN SOCCER CHAMPIONSHIP! We busted Poland yesterday - so chances are good for lotsa mornings feeling like some grub for me).

Anyhow, my opinion is, if people can't deal with the karma system, quit it. Just positive karma is silly.

To Menard and AllHallowsDay,

He's been banned..sent into time-out - for a while.  It's likely he is not even reading these comments.

Does it really do any good to keep hashing over this stuff, keep flinging insults, keep giving the behaviour MORE attention?

The horse is dead...continued flogging does not hurt the horse.

We COULD have a positive discussion geared toward how to improve the system to (a) make those who want karma on the board to be happy and (b) to TRY to lessen the chance of abuse in the future.

That seems to me to be a bit more constructive than personal beratement, which is EXACTLY what this thread is tangentially about preventing.

Just my cents.  Feel free to flog me for a while.

That's both the hypocrisy and core of conservatism: divine entitlement, but nobody else should be allowed.

Interestingly also, UPyourASS...err...I mean INyourREAR (http://lesbiansexpornvideos.com/smileys/lol-065.gif) has sparked the very thing he (er...she?) has said he was against.

I wonder:

Is it the supposed lack of civility?

Or is it free expression?

Nah...you'd enjoy it too much. :tongueout:

This is not a political thread.  This is not a thread about Inyarear.  This is a thread to discuss the root problem, and any possible solutions.  I have made the best attempt I could think of to patch the situation.

I'd be entirely in favour of a negative karma system that allowed Andrew to see who did what to whom, but I do think the anonymity among users is important. It's enough of a deterrant to abuse if everyone is aware that Santa knows who's naughty and who's nice. Letting us see who dinged our karma is either going to cause more sniping, or deter negative karma entirely, making it pointless.

That said, I would love to be able to look up what the bad karma was for. Any time I've gotten it, I haven't had a clue what provoked it. It never seems to coincide with any post I consider potentially offensive. Criticism is only valuable if you know why you're being criticized. For me, the why matters much more than the who.

Wow!!  I'm gone for a weekend, and look what happens!

I'm glad to be able to give positive karma; although I rarely used the negative button, I will somewhat miss the ability to do so.  But it's sure not gonna keep me away from this forum that is my second home!

But in the meantime, karma to Andrew for being such a great mod!

I wonder how you'd feel if you'd been the target.  The horse is not dead, it's merely put out to pasture for 10 days.  It's not about karma; it's about honesty and trust.  Being banned (temporarily) doesn't mean he can't read the thread.  If I had done what he did and was compelled to confess, I'd be interested to read what the rest of the membership had to say.

I've only gave neg karma once.  When I looked backed and saw that it was a mistake b/c I misunderstood a joke, I gave the karma back.  Tracking Karma would be a good thing, since it would see if someone is abusing karma.  The negative Karma button could be there but there would have to be some type of condition that would only allow a user to use it (I.E only able to do so after getting a certain amount of Karma obtained, only allowed to use it an x amount a month, etc). 

So now we can just "aplaud". cool.

Personally, if I were Andrew, that would be my worst nightmare: A system where the guy providing the board has been tasked with babysitting due to a small, periphial feature, but one that has the potential to be the root of a large amount of controversy. I'm all for doing whatever makes it easier on Andrew, else this becomes more like a job than a hobby. 

Here, here!   :thumbup:

I agree, let's remember that Andrew does have a life outside of this site, unlike some people <cough>.

Note:  That cough meant me.

Wasn't really suggesting something that required Andrew to monitor behaviour, just a log that would be available to him in the event of a complaint. Somebody's karma drops ten points overnight, he can tell at a glance who did it. Most likely, that would be enough to ensure it never happens.

I also like the idea of a monthly limit on the amount of negative karma a member can give, and reserving the privilege until a certain posting threshold has passed. If you have to post 200 or 500 times before the boo button becomes available, hopefully that would prevent abuse by any but the most committed trolls, as well as misuse by noobs who don't know any better.

A karma system with anonymity and accountability would be no trouble at all, I think.

Wish I knew the first thing about PHP programming.

I don't know, I've still only been around for a couple months, a time that I'm sure by some is still pretty noobish, and look at my post number, yeah.   :lookingup:

Just to throw out another idea (I have no idea if it's possible, feasible, ridiculous, naive, or what): what about a feature that allows a user to opt out of the karma game? That way, if someone like Menard, who dislikes the system, wanted at some future date to rejoin the forum officially, he could simply check a box that says "no" to the karma feature.

Or another possibility from someone who has absolutely no knowledge of how complicated it would be: an ignore feature that would also disable the ability of the persons on the list to affect the list owner's karma. If, for example, Allhallowsday wanted to "ignore" Inyarear, then Inyarear's posts wouldn't show up for Allhallowsday, and Inyarear would no longer have the ability to affect (positively or negatively) Allhallowsday's karma; in effect, the people on the ignore list would no longer exist on the board for the list owner. I'd hate to see that feature personally, but then, I've not gotten into anything overly heated with anyone else here, so I have no reason yet to really want to ignore anyone.

  :bouncegiggle: Thanks for choosing us two for an example.  :lookingup:  :bouncegiggle: Please list your medications...  :bouncegiggle:  :bouncegiggle: 

(http://s99.org/smileys/mooning.gif)




 :thumbup: :bouncegiggle: :twirl:

Stop it! You're getting me all excited!  :teddyr:

Didn't mean to demean the board or its members.  I mean that this place is "just" a message board like your favorite neighborhood bar is "just" a bar.  It's not really the decor or the ambiance that makes it a special place: it's the regulars, and the booze selection.  To me the "karma" feature is like a "love-it-or-hate-it" song on the jukebox that gets played a lot.  You may have strong feelings about it's artistic merit, but few people are going to hang around or leave based on that one song.  It's not worth fighting over.  But it might start some arguments when one guy insists on dumping a fistful of quarters into the jukebox and playing it over and over.

Eh...good try, but you still didn't pull yourself out of that one (as the hooker said to the john :teddyr:).

Usually the best reply is: "As usual , you are right, Menard"  :tongueout:


If someone kept popping quarters into a jukebox to play a song that I hated, I'd just simply grab them by the collar and the balls and toss their ass out...

...I kinda do the same on the forum. :drink:

Is this thread still here?

 :lookingup:

If you think KARMA is bad hop over to Crypt Space (http://cryptspace.yuku.com/).  The Yuku forums have something called KUDOS, which are about as pointless and have stirred up just as much scrannel.  (Word of caution I renamed this on my board to TRIBBLES.)  Why?  Because when you give KUDOS you can leave a message.  Why is this a problem?  Because that PM shows up on profiles, whether you want it to or not, thus circumventing the BAN/IGNORE system.

To see how the KUDOS system there works you need to click on a person's profile.  Go ahead.  You don't have to join the board (Crypt Space (http://cryptspace.yuku.com/)) or anything to see what I'm talking about.

Go ahead, it's no tribble at all.   :lookingup:

There is now a logging system in place for karma, and it should also prompt you for a brief description (which you can leave blank).  Everything needs more testing, but I am tapped out.  I will test more once I have the opportunity.  If you run into anything funny, please post it here or in the trouble tickets thread.

Thanks for your time and trouble, Andrew.  You are the best Admin/Mod EVER!

Kudos!  Congrats!

Have a tribble.............. *

 :bouncegiggle:

I like the explanation box, makes for a fun time.

Is the "reason" box for Andrew to verify or do we get to see why we get karma now? :smile:

Andrew you go to a lot of trouble for us.  I am curious also whether we can see comments left.  PLEASE don't work on it!   :smile:  It's not important.  But, the website is important to many of us BADMOVIE  lovers!!  I'm inspired to write a dumb review of THE FOG, which I watched last night for the first time since it was new...  :lookingup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:   

Thought I had gotten that turned on before crashing last night.  It is working now.  Checking your profile will show the karma description info:

http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php?action=profile

"Who changed my karma" and "Whose karma have I changed" links.

Okay, so what does the number next to people's names mean?

EDIT:  Never mind I get it now, it's how many OTHER people have done as a total amount.  Really nice job on this Andrew, now I can figure out who was so kind as to boost my karma those tiny bits.  This will also be mor preventive of karma abuse.

This is pretty cool... looks like there are all kinds of fun ways to analyze karma now.  And now I know the folks who are giving me karma, and why!

WOw!!! I just looked at my profile, and I am one of the most smited people on here!!
55 negative karma points!
And I didn't even know it!

I don't know whether to be flattered or insulted.


"If, at the end of your life's journey, you discover you have made some enemies along the way - congratulations!  That means that somewhere, sometime, you took a stand for something."  - Winston Churchill

Either that or I'm a jerk and didn't know it.

Yer not really gonna give me material like that to work with are ya?   :cheers:

It would seem that the conservatives, minus WW are the most smited folks around. I'm right behind you and I have no idea I had as many as I did ... oh well I smite thee oh might smiter. It always cost you to make a stand, but tis a small price to pay.

You've been smited a lot, but your net karma remains relatively high. That's good. It means you've impressed more people than you thought, and you did it without watering down your opinions.

Very cool feature Andrew, thanks for all your hard work!  It's really quite interesting seeing what people leave you karma for. 

Maybe I'm clicking the wrong thing but I'm getting...

"Sorry - you don't have the proper permissions to view the Karma Description list."

I'm clicking the link off the profile page if that helps.

It was a permissions issue, because you are in the webmaster group.  Fixed it now.

Thank you sir, this feature is cool might I say.  :thumbup:

Hey, CHEEZEE, you're also on the most applauded list... so, take comfort.   :smile:

So, what can we learn from the fact that the most popular guy on the board is the one in the hoosegow?   :teddyr:

It's from people who are jealous of your archeological finds.  :bouncegiggle:

Oh I just thought it was ironic and I thank all those that applauded me ... thank you, thank you very much. (in my best Elvis voice)

(Cue the music ...)

Lady and Gentlemen Cheeze has left the building.

We have a love/hate relationship with Cheeze, no doubt.

But it's kind of surreal to see Lester 1/2 Jr. with positive karma... it's like I've stumbled onto bizarro board.  All that work I've done over the months with the applaud button just helping to keep his head above water, and now he's 9 points in the black.   :wink:

True, but the "Boo" button has been inactive for a couple of weeks now . . .  :teddyr:

I've dinged Lester on occasion, but I've also applauded him.  He and I disagree a lot, but I do salute him for standing on principle.

Oh, I see the "boo" button is back.

So is all right with the world now?  Business as usual?  Move along, nothing to see here?

Does this mean I have to start baking more cookies?????    :lookingup:

Yea dude. Make a batch of vanilla chip cookies for me, will ya?

(http://5g8.net/smileys/snicker.gif)

I'm the only one who gets her cookies, no one else. :teddyr: :teddyr: :teddyr:

(http://5g8.net/smileys/lol-065.gif) Think again.

 :tongueout:

Invisible karma to Menard . . . . :bouncegiggle:

So, Menard makes remarks about my wife and then you reward him with invisible karma. Sir, I challenge you to a dual, as the challenged you have the right to chose the weapons, then if we ever meet in person, we'll have the dual. HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uhm...you're challenging him to a split personality?

 :tongueout:

Or a set of tailpipes.

Why...that sounds...exhausting (http://z54.org/smileys/lol-049.gif)

Okay, so I spelled duel, as in pistols at dawn, like dual, as in dual glazed low-e clear tempered glass with dual glaze stops and sticking, which is what I was writing as the description on every order and shop drawing I did today. I wrote dual when I really meant duel because I was in a hurry and it passed spell check because even though it means something completely different it's still spelled correctly. You must admit though that my spelling error gave you guys the opportunity to poke fun at my choice of words, so it was not a complete waste of my time. Now even though I corrected the spelling I'm going to change it back so others who read this will know what actually happened.

(I give a karma to Menard for correcting my mistakes, in ways that I always find amusing.)

So Dennis, I noticed that you are no longer DENNIS. Now its just Dennis. Does that mean were not supposed to yell when we pronounce your name anymore or what?

Maybe it means we humbled him by catching that mistake  :teddyr:

I'm as humble as I ever was (I have a lot to be humble about) and you no longer need to yell when you pronounce my name, just send me money.  :bouncegiggle:

i like the new way you get to see what people think

Please advise.  What do people think? 

Its Sunday AM and I noticed that when I gave karma to a few people, it didn't ask me the reason.  Is this right?

edit 11:24 am:

Its asking now and seems to be all set.  It says on people I gave karma to "no explanation given".

i mean to see why they apllaud or boo you