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is there some rule that says if you are homeless you HAVE to pick your nose and stay at your computer station for ten hours?  that you are some elevated person in society who doesn't have to show basic consideration of others?

I read a study that said there are something like 1/20th of the number of beds in insane asylums today as there were in the 1950s. The point of the study was the impact of that on prisons, but the point was brought out that those that are NOT in prison are likely homeless. In Alaska, something like 1/3 of the homeless people are in need of mental health attention who do not get it, and surpirisingly, Alaska was one of the BETTER places in that regard. The number of veterans that are homeless is quite staggering. So all in all, it's not surprising that many have no social bearing.

We get that here also, my first day in Seward there were a bunch of drunk bums passed out in the isle, I couldn't even get to the book I was there to get.

I'm fine with them being here.  i just don't like looking at them pick their nose!   


I don't even know if they are mentally ill, but they are rude.


I would think Alaska would not be a very oppurtune place for a homeless person.    Florida California.  a warm liberal sort of state

I'm sure all the homeless people that PLANNED on being homeless did so in Florida and California. . .

It's not just the homeless who pick their nose.
Give 'em a brake or re-name your post to all disgusting people. Not just the homeless.

regular people have sense enough not to be so gross.  the guy who just sat down next to me smells like a saloon.  I'm leaving before I barf.

Why don't you try sleeping on the streets for even a few weeks and see how you smell? What the f*** does "regular" people mean? Eveyone's different. You know, sometimes life deals you a bad hand and there ain't much you can do about it. When I was 19, my family disowned me, my girlfriend cheated on me, burnt my clothes and threw me out on the street. I was sleeping rough for nearly 6 months. Even though I did eventually find a job, I still had to rough it for 2 months until I got my flat. I'm pretty sure I must've stunk to some.  :lookingup:

Don't be a snob.

Your library lets you stay on a computer for 10 hours?  Our library boots you every I think hour, but if there are open computers you can just re-log in.

There but for the grace of God, lester.

I was visiting relatives and one of them's car broke down, this was in Oregon. It was night and myself and a friend of the relative were looking at the car to see if we could fix it. A homeless man came up and started chatting with us. Our flashlight went dead and the homeless guy gave us the batteries out of his walkman. When we were all done, those batteries were dead, and the guy kinda said "I hate to bother you, but. . " To which I said, Hey, I owe you some money for the batteries (trying to save him from having to ask, the guy really seemed cool, and sober). I hand him two ones and a five, to which he says "Are you sure about this, that a bunch more than the batteries are worth"? I tell him it's OK, and he says something "Ok, if you're sure, , god bless you and your family".
Later I realized I gave him two ones and a fifty, , and the guy was straight up and honest about it. He seemed ok, maybe that was the $50 that turned things around for him.

Well said.
It's a cold world out there.

You're one tough, and correct, cookie.

She burned your clothes??  :buggedout:
What a b***h!  

if you guys ever spot me homeless in a library pickin my nose, please offer to buy my lunch

because i likely would hang out at the library. Most people released from jail are dropped off on the corner with no place to go which is why most homeless people are in the downtown area. The library is quiet and welcomes everyone. Now at least if I am homeless I can still get on the internet and post on badmovies  :thumbup:

no amount of woe gives you the right to pick your nose like that.  no amount of money would excuse it either.  it's basic human decency

You're our kinda girl, Susan  :wink:

i think there's something in the declaration of independence about the pursuit of happiness which says i can ;-)

tomoroww I'm gonna tell him what fer

Its obvious people would relate to your post more Lester if the "homeless" thing wasn't involved.   In my experience, I've seen equal to worse behavior in libraries from those with homes.   In my local library its high school kids talking, laughing and giggling that gets to me.  I have to say you're right on the ethical behavior (regardless of social situation) topic in public places.  Keep the snots out of our libraries. 

I'd buy you lunch Susan even if you weren't pickin' your nose.   :bouncegiggle:

Starting back in the 70's and 80's it was decided by the  TPTB, that all those state run mental facilities were inhumane and were just warehousing the mentally ill.

So, what did they do about? They shut them all down and turned all those folks into the street, then TPTB decided homelessness was a problem.

Anyway if the guy is that disgusting, can't you just avoid him?

The real heartbreaking part is that a lot of those homeless guys are veterans.

sad that especially young people think it's ok to treat homeless like trash. You always hear stories of kids and teens beating them up and killing them, because they figure nobody cares.

The sad thing is i doubt most of them are on the street because they're a drunk, but if you had to live on the street and had nowhere to go, wouldn't  you turn to alcohol too?

anyhow, homeless or not we're all people. I agree with what someone said above, teenagers can be more obnioxious than anyone in public. nose-picking i can turn a blind eye to. Screaming kids i can't. I think people get defensive about the homeless because we are in a position of power, we have the power to either be cruel or to be empathetic towards those who are in a vulnerable situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuElHB54o2U

and don't mess with texas ;-)

I try to be compassionate about those less fortunate, course, reports like this make me cynical...

it's not easy as that getting an alcoholic to stop drinking. most people who smoke can't stop smoking or people who eat can't stay on a diet.

Did they stop to really talk to most of the people to see what their story was, their background, their life, how they got to where they are and why they drink? Lots of alcoholics are that way because of depression and trauma and self loathing, it's a way to escape the reality of what their life has become

We're always going to have the homeless. I'm not going to lay judgement because there are those who truly take advantage. And by take advantage I don't mean they show up at shelters to eat food and sleep.  Those are basic necessities, and maybe they know they couldn't last a job because they are alcoholics and they would be setting themself up for failure because they don't have self esteem. Who the hell knows. But I will say there are leeches in society, granted. But to me I'm more disgusted not with a homeless man who just doesn't want to work because of 'unknown' reasons and lives on the street and gets free food. I can't tolerate people who have a job but mooch off of others, live with someone, don't help with bills or rent and take money from friends and family for stupi stuff like buying themself some movies or games. Or those who have a home but stay on welfare simply cause they don't wanna work. These are people with no excuse, they're able, have opportunity, a place of residence and likely healthy.

But there's one idiot in my city who was begging on streetcorners and it turned out he was an unemployed guy living in a house with his mother. Now that guy deserved a good public whipping

Yea, crap like that is disgusting. We do have alot of freeloaders, in the U.S.anyways. We have them homeless, I encountered many in the Army, we even have people that would rather be in prison than have to put a life together on their own. BUT, I've been to Bean's Cafe in Anchorage, and I would bet WAY less than 20% of the people there are like the freeloaders in that clip. There are some seriously F-ed up people on the streets, and not just drugs and alcohol. FAS is a huge cause in Alaska, I see it all the time.

One thing that is seldom addressed is something I've encountered quite a bit in Alaska, and that's people that have serious personality disorders or something of the sort. I have met TONS of people who can't get or keep a job because they have a personality that others just can't deal with. Clinicians can easily differentiate between mental illness and personality disorder, and it seems there's much more of the later, , but, how is it dealt with? It's probably more prevalent in AK because of the screwed up family systems that seem to be everywhere, the isolation in small villages where the morals and value systems are sheltered from normalcy.

All in all though, I agree with the guy running the shelter in the clip: Either go by a set of rules that is geared towards integrating you back into society, or GTFO. The mentally ill need to be helped, as do the physically disabled, but the lazy need to stay out on the streets or dropped off on an island where they can fend for themselves. The problem is, nobody wants to pay for doing these things, the best that happens is they pay one person $12.00/hr to decide who is worthy of help and who is not for an entire city, so either many who truly need help are left to the streets, or a bunch of lazy buttheads get handouts. It's a tough one,


BTW, just for the record, after smoking for 20+ years and quitting 100% on the first try, I can tell you that quitting isn't that hard. You just have to have a system. 4+ years since my last smoke, which is the one I said was the last one, , no cheating here.

I smoked for over a decade and finally quit cold turkey and never had another smoke. I tried to quit a number of times and couldn't. The only thing that made me quit was i had an arythmia that scared the crap out of me. Quitting smoking wasn't really about the nicotine, it was about the habit. It became part of my life so long i felt naked without a smoke.

But alcohol is an entirely different animal

And you're right on the personality disorders as well as other mental issues. 20% of schizophrenics are homeless. And near that are those who are bi-polar

My cousin is a paranoid schizophrenic.  Although he's high-functioning and looks completely normal on the outside, he can't hold down a job because he has episodes where he "hears" his boss plotting to kill him, and he runs off the job in fear.

About a week ago he threw himself in front of a car in a pathetic suicide attempt because he wanted the hallucinations to stop.  He only succeeded in breaking his leg.

Obviously, no one in the family wants to take him in; he's a danger to himself and others.  If we can't find a place to take him in, he'll end up on the street.

If he does, I'll tell him to be sure he doesn't annoy anyone in the public library by picking his nose.   :wink:

That's such a terrible disease. A good friend of my brother developed this right out of high school. He had been a star athlete and a great student, and had a very promising future. For years we'd occasionally hear from him and he was usually homeless. He dropped off the face of the earth years ago.

I'm an alchoholic. I have recently been diagnosed as a manic depressive as well. The doctor thinks part of the reason I drink is self medication. Sometimes I get so depressed I don't even want to be awake. I just wanna sleep. My job has me running a machine (a 'magnetic can depallitizer' :lookingup: which is basically a big magnet that picks up bunches of cans and sets them on a conveyer belt), so I work pretty much alone,except for my lift truck driver,who can't speak English. So I think...ALL DAY LONG. Some times I dwell on stuff so much I find myself going into 'panic attack' mode. My heart races and I get real nervous...like the end of the world is approaching or something. By the time I get out of work,I gotta have a drink to slow me down. And being an alki-I don't usually just have one drink. I'll drink a whole pint of whiskey. I need to go on meds,the doc says...but I worry about that too.
  Lester...you're going to find people that pick there noses,drunks,rude a44holes, bigots,snobs,slobs,morons,hoighty toighty types,junkies drunkies,loud mouths,paranoids-in ALL walks of life. The homless pick there nose in public-so what? There HOMLESS. They LIVE in public. They have to walk around all day smelling like sh!t in public! The deal with the rest of the human race looking at them as walking trash...less than human! Would YOU give a flying f#ck what some well off shmuck thouht of you picking your nose when people treat you like an animal on a daily basis?  I've seen people SPIT on homless people-IN PUBLIC. THAT's RUDE!

Obviously, Lester, you don't commute.  I don't anymore either, but I used to and I can't tell you the number of people I used to see on the roads..., uh, well you get the idea...

I'd rather not pick my nose in public.  Too many germs out there that can cause sinuse infections. 

That sounds very similar to what I have, it turned out to be general anxiety disorder.  My doctor put me on this anti-anxiety medication called Lexapro.  Works great, leaves me feeling completely normal except the whole dwelling on things until I'm near panic thing is gone.  Other than the fact that it's rather expensive (about $75 a month) it's great stuff  :teddyr:  Takes several weeks for it to build up in your system, so the symptoms go away gradually. 

Don't you just love over-the-internet medical diagnosis from non doctors?  :teddyr:  Anyhow, there are a whole pile of diferent medications available, if your doctor puts you on something that's too strong or has side effects, or just doesn't work, don't hesitate to demand something else. 

Lester does raise a good point. People are reluctant to hold homeless people to basic standards of behaviour.

My wife used to work at a big inner-city church where they ran a shelter program in the winter. Many "clients" would be simply out of control. People would smoke in the lobby, harass people coming into the church, fight with each other, use profanity, break in doors, smear crap on the bathroom walls and leave used needles where the caretaker could find them without necessarily seeing them first. At various times, VCRs, etc. would also just go missing.

The problem there was that the people who were in charge refused to do anything about it. On the surface, it was Christian idealism. Deeper down, it was motivated by guilt and fear. These people wouldn't enforce the rules because they were scared of their own guests, although few would admit it. There was also a very patronizing attitude that reflected a tremendous lack of respect for the homeless. To hold someone to account for his behaviour is to treat him as a human being. To clean up after him and excuse his behaviour is to treat him as an animal.

Yes, many are mentally ill, and many made bad choices. But there are also those who simply believe that the world owes them a living. My wife administered the benevolent fund, and she ran into those people fairly often. And there were teenagers for whom life on the streets was a "lifestyle." There were some kids who were escaping a bad situation at home, but there were others who were only homeless when it suited them. They were playing at it, for some unfathomable reason. They would meet at the shelter and treat it as a slumber party.

Unless someone is seriously ill, I think it is appropriate to require, or at least encourage, some standards of hygeine and behaviour. It might seem heartless, but it really is showing respect. By holding someone to a realistic standard, you are showing a belief that they can meet it. By letting them run wild, you show a belief that they are incapable of living in the civilized world. What hope does that give them?

The biggest problem I had with that shelter program was that it just enabled people, while doing nothing to help them better their situation in the long run. But that is what the people running it wanted. Feed and shelter them, then clean up after them. Like a dog pound.

But I did not dare criticize. This program was a sacred cow of the highest order.

I was waiting for something good to come out of this thread, and there it is.  Karma for Andy.

The one thing I want to know is, what (or who) defines what regular people are?

 

GREAT post Andy.

"The problem there was that the people who were in charge refused to do anything about it. "

that's another problem here.  The librarians, like all state employees, don't do their job.  Occasionally I can't take it anymore and I will tell loud people to be quiet please.  the librarians, who the one thing we want from them is to tell loud people to be quiet, are off in another dimension.  they believe theyare part of the literary worldor something.   and of  course,  the regulars resent the kids from the local high school and sit their stone faced when the kids are carousing as kids do.

I have a two-word answer for you on that, care to guess which two words it is?  :hatred:

bunch of anti-nose pickers!

The actual problem here is that Lester (like all people who are, have been, or will be named Lester) overgeneralizes.  Lesters always do that -- they make sweeping and offensive generalizations.  Maybe without realizing how it comes across; I'm not sure.  I don't talk to Lesters because they're all the same, so I dunno.

The real question is, do Lesters learn from their mistakes?   :teddyr:

ghouck-  sorry.  I don't doubt there are some intelligent sensible government employees somewhere but not around here.  It's not really their fault, there is no economic incentive for them to do better  and they can't get fired.

at any rate  THESE particular librarians STINK

Apology accepted Lester, but I do hope you realize you are still generalizing. I have little doubt that your apparent hatred for any and all government has led you to prejudge state workers anyways. I guarantee there are less duds in the state here than there are in the private sector, as I've worked for civillians, for the feds, AND now for the State. As for "can't get fired", that's what people say when they are looking for something to complain about but don't know enough to dig up a legitimate complaint. It's actually harder to keep a State job where I live, and our state guidelines are taken from other states, so it's not some original plan. How many civillian jobs do you get fired for a DWI? Very few, but in my state, any state worker can be fired, and they often are, for any breaking of the law, excluding traffic offenses (DWI is not a traffic offense, it's a criminal offense). I've known people to be fired when DV charges were filed against them. No trial or anything, just fired. The guy got the job back after a few months when the charges were dropped, but that doesn't change the fact that he was out a job that entire time. How many civillian jobs require you to adhere to a code of ethics? Very few, but in the state everyone must follow the code, and that is one of the biggest reasons that people get fired. "No economic incentive for them to do better"? I don'ty know where you live, but if you'retrying to apply that to me like your original blanket statement, you're wrong. You say state workers in your area have "No economic incentive for them to do better". Ok, then some system needs to be put in place to not only punish poor performance, but also to reward positive performance. I do wonder how you would vote if a plan such as that were to be brought up to vote. .


Then FFS address that head on, with the people that are concerned. What is it that drives people to complain about something they won't address directly. Those librarians have a boss, and those bosses have bosses and so on. BUT, I seriously doubt the librarians have any pull in terms of stopping some knucklehead from picking his nose. You're probably just going to have to go right to the source on that one, so complaining about the librarians is pointless in that regard.

No I don't think the librarians should stop someone from picking their nose, but the one thing i personally want them to do, tell other people to shut up,  they refuse to do. 


capitalism!

also, bear in mind I live in massachusetts.  our state apparatus would put moscows to shame.  Aren't you in Alaska?  much different culturally, I would guess for the better.

we have a massive zillion dollar budget, none of which is used to do the two things i want them to do:  fix the roads and hire librarians who don't  feel it's beneath them to do traditional librarian shooshing!!



in my state cops make as much as 40 dollars and hour to direct traffic near work sites.    when the work sites hire non cops at a normal rate of pay the police will show up and actually attempt to distract the workers from their jobs and generally agitate in plain site to shake the people down.  you'd be an anarchist too!!

No, I'd leave. You point out that I live in Alaska and that you believe it is better there. That's not by random chance. If you don't like where you are, either the state or the library, then move on to one that suits you better. That's the reason that all places are NOT the same; because people desire different things and different surroundings.

Was that a supporting or an opposing outburst?

Living in NYC all my life, one of the things you deal with on a daily basis is the homeless especially if you take the train like me everywhere. They ask for money ,sleep, sometimes smell up the train but who the hell doesn't on the public transportion. I have seen plenty of people do some nasty stuff on the train picking a nose is up there but not the worst and I see alot more regular people do that than homeless.

They were two incidents that I saw involving homeless people that always bother me and one I had to say something.The first one was this guy giving money to a homeless guy and before he gave to him saying "Your not going to spend in on alcohol right?" The homeless guy said no and the guy gave him some change. Now you can't even buy beer with the little change he gave and if you think that don't bother giving the guy anything.

Other time a homeless guy was sleep on the train sprawled across the bench like seat on the train. It was rude and annoying as ever but there was a space for me to sit so I did. I was taking a catnap myself, Sitting down not across seats, when this guy got on the train and started kicking the seat to the this guy up.  Now while homeless guy was wrong for sleeping like that, this guy decides to become even MORE annoying by kicking the damn seat for about a minute or 2 and saying get up,meawhile waking and p**sing ME off. So I told him " You woke me up" that guy looked at me and stopped but by the time homeless man was up.

The dude took the seat and start talking down to the homeless guy! The homeless fellow said "Allright enough" and the guy shut up for the rest of the trip. The kicker and myself got off at the same stop and he smiled at me and I gave him a dirty look.

Moral of the two stories? Douchbags come in all forms homeless or not.

When you're homeless and you've lost everything you don't give a f***, why should you? Hell, people are losing tons of confidence and self respect after a few weeks out of work with the state the economy is in at the moment. I dug myself out of the hole that homelessness is, but I still do whatever the I feel like. If people are so far away from "normal" society, then why on earth should they conform? It's a sad state of affairs, but then it's an everyday occurrence and it will always be that way for alot of people.

ghouck-  NO, I was saying capitalism is the system that punishes poor performance and rewards positive performance.  at least in theory.  I like boston and am not going to leave because of it's government.  I don't see them as part of things, just an annoyance.

byeond the grave- have you ever seen "dark days".  it's a documentary about the people who lived in these tunnels under NYC.  It was good

circus and rcmerchant I meant to compliment your posts as well.  it's good to get this sort of genuine information from peoples experiences and also good to see you have picked yourselves up

I don't know, I see a big difference in the two cases... the people who are living with others and "mooching" off the person they're with, well, that's pretty much just the person they're living with's problem.  It's that person (or persons) who are enabling those people to get away with that behavior. 

But when you got people who don't want to work and get their money by standing out in the street and asking (sometimes "bothering") people for change, taking advantage of the kindness of others, frankly that bugs me a LOT more than a moocher who's exploiting someone who's too weak to stand up for themselves and tell them to help out around the house or leave.

Plus, when you give a homeless person money (as opposed to giving it to a shelter or charity that helps the homeless) I'd argue you're not helping that person.

I remember not too long ago in New York City a bunch of lawyers got together and SUED THE CITY so the homeless could have the RIGHT to panhandle. 

What kind of message does that send? 

And this may sound cruel, but if I owned a business in the city, I would NOT want a bunch of homeless people standing by the entrance, asking potential customers of my store for change.  The cruel fact is, when people see a bunch of homeless guys standing around begging a lot of them will automatically turn and walk the other way, and that would end up hurting whatever business they happen to be in front of.  And that's not fair to the guy who works hard, pays taxes, and is trying to make a living.


Well, I agree, that's annoying as well.  I see that a lot in the place I live.  A lot of the people here don't work, and I can see why the elderly or the guy who's confined to his bed can't hold a job and have no problem with their unemployment status, but a lot of others on this floor seem perfectly capable of doing something.  Strangely, although they don't work, most of them somehow manage to pay rent, have cable, and have seemingly have no problem supporting their nicotine habits. 

I work in a library.  While we do tell the people to be quiet at times, you may have noticed a change in the tone of libraries in the past 5-10 years.  Basically, they're transitioning from places to quietly study and borrow books to combination media centers and cafe-type hang outs.  This is a change they're making as they realize far too many young people have no interest in the library, thanks to a variety of changes in the way media is consumed.  Basically, libraries realize their days as book depositories are numbered, so they're trying to update their image.

Along with this change, unfortunately, comes a much higher degree of tolerance for bad behavior in libraries.

Thank You Jim, I was hoping I was not the only one to notice this. Somewhere, someone got the idea every library had to be dead silent, that is just not the case these days. There are libraries that ARE, and some that are NOT. Like I said before, if you don't like the one you're at, find another. I can't be forced to believe that there aren't more around, as at last count, there were 540+ in Alaska, a state of around 600,000 people.

Personally I think we should bring out the cat o' nine tails for people who mistreat libraries.

Yeah, that's true.  There is a big difference in the state of St. Louis county libraries.  Generally, the bigger the library, the louder it is.  If you want a quiet one, find the tiniest hole-in-the-wall library in your area.  I don't mind libraries not being dead silent at all times, but the occasional people talking extremely loudly on their phone and very young children screaming and crying do annoy me a lot.  The latter two are probably the main times we have to tell people to be quiet or leave the library. 

On a side note, you should see the "banned patron" list. Some of the things people have done to get banned...  Public masturbation in the computer room, hitting staff, breaking library property on purpose, etc.

Then WHAT do you have computers for? Remind me to not come to YOUR library, what kind of facist librarian doesn't let someone milk out a kleenex-baby or two? It's not like I'd do it in the children's book section or something sick like that. .

:bouncegiggle:

Funny, my experience has been the opposite. Living in the city, I found people were spread out enough that they didn't make much noise, and the library was a big enough place that you could find a quiet corner without too much trouble. I recall they also had a section of carrels if you were really serious. The layout of the place actually fostered peace and quiet in the main library. The kids' section was in a whole other part of the building, books got checked out in the lobby, away from the shelves, and they had separate rooms for programs.

On the other hand, I just took my daughter to story hour at our tiny one-room public library today. Not much space at all, and mostly filled with shelves, tables and computers, with some pretty narrow aisles. And during story hour, the kids pretty much rule the place. You hear them throughout, they move about the library as the activities require it, and there's quite a stampede when they come and go and sign out their books. And the parents occupy even more space than the kids. The kids are pretty well behaved, but when they're singing and making crafts and hearing stories, they are naturally making noise. But that's what I love about small town libraries. The few adults who aren't there for story time don't seem too concerned about it either. Heck, in a community like this, most of them know the kids.

The big-city library was bright, quiet, spacious, institutional and well stocked with practically anything I wanted to read. I liked that. I miss that. But this library is a fun, friendly place, and I like that too. It reminds me of the library in my hometown, which was several times larger than this one, but still not what you'd call big. A public library, especially in places with limited public facilities is indeed more than a book depository. It's a real community resource.

It probably varies by region, and whether you're talking in a major city or in the suburbs.  The libraries I'm talking about are in the suburban St. Louis metro-area.  In the smaller libraries in my area, the libraries simply can't allow too many people to be noisy, since one very loud person disturbs every one.  Smaller libraries here are also less used, even considering the smaller size, as people frequently go out of their way to go to the bigger ones for their greater amenities.

You're also very right about layout.  We have a separate kids room, which has two doors that close when you enter, and it does a GREAT job of keeping in noise.  Basically, your kids can nearly scream and not bother other patrons.  The problem are parents that let their kids run around screaming everywhere.

On another note, it's completely baffling to me how many parents let young children run around the library totally unescorted.  I'm not talking kids, say, 10 and up - I mean like 2-4 year olds.  It's not only unsafe on the level of what a stranger can do (not a huge concern in my area, really), but more a concern that they could get hurt, lost, or scared - all of which have happened on my shift.  One two year old managed to latch onto my cart, and tip it onto himself.  It's lucky it was nearly empty - what if it had been full of heavy hard covers?  He was lucky just to get a nasty bruise on his face.  Me, I just about had a heart attack at that.   :bluesad:

True, it's amazing how many people let kids run around unescorted any place. I used to get annoyed with people who let their kids misbehave in public places, and the line I always got was that I'd feel differently with kids of my own. Funny, my kid doesn't do that. Sometimes she acts up, but not too badly, and it's usually easy to get control of the situation. The secret was that we never made excuses for her. From the beginning, there were times and places to be noisy or run around, and those where it was not allowed. There were things you could touch and things you could only look at, and things you needed to treat gently. There were things you should stay away from altogether. And when she learned to talk, there were things for which you were required to apologize.

It wasn't even that hard. A little diligence up front, and she understood. Now, enforcing the rules is easy, because misbehaviour is the exception. Half the time, she's reminding us to mind our manners.

So yeah, experience has just made me more annoyed when kids are running wild. There's no excuse.

True enough, but surely your ideas on this matter don't align with everybody's. I guarantee there's SOMEONE that didn't think it was OK for your kid to run/whatever someplace you thought it was OK, and vice-versa. There's always going to be someone complaining that what YOU are doing is wrong, and you'll chalk them up as being overly uptight, there will always be people who you see as letting their kids go out of control, and they'll chalk YOU up as being overly uptight.

This all started with one person's insistence that HE thought the entire library should adjust to HIS desire, period.

And for people like JimH describes, I also am amazed at how little people look out for the safety of their kids. We have on looney family here with one boy of the young teen-age variety. The kid was an idiot, plain and simple, the rest of the family was none the better, but they HAD to realize what an idiot this kid is, poor student, etc, but they got the kid a dirt bike and turned him loose on the world. Well, the kid blows through a stop sign coming off a dirt road across what is one of the busiest highways in Alaska, and gets hit by a pickup truck. Sparing the details, the kid dies a couple of weeks later. Now, I feel bad for the family, it sucks, but, the kid was heading towards killing someone anyways with a bunch of the other stupid crap he did on a regular basis, to try an put a silver lining on it, this just may have save someone else's life. BUT, why did the kid have a dirt bike? A combination of two things: It is a pacifier, and it's so he fits in with the cool kids; the honor roll students that stay out of trouble, work hard, act responsible, and have dirt bikes because of that. Social life first, gotta make sure that's up to par before anything else.

libraries are traditionally quiet places.  there is alot of space in this library for loudness but it's not a coffee shop.  my tax dollars pay for at least one quiet place in this thing

I get a little irritated when I see my neighbor's kids in there screwing around on the computer playing games EVERY TIME no matter what hour I go to the local library (aside school hours).  Thats because their mother drops them off there for the day maybe under the assumption they're educating themselves.    :lookingup:   Granted when I go on the computer there its hardly for educational reasons.  However, I go on for 15 minutes at the most.

Most libraries I've used enforce time limits on the computers. But in the Philly main city library there's supposed to be some sort of scam that a few people use to sign up under multiple names and tie up practically every computer in the library. I forget the details of the scam.

In most that I've been in in AK, and I've been in lots of them in many different cities, they do the same: Time limits on computers. I saw one that had a decent enough system: Every computer had a timer on it, and when that timer went off, the monitor shut off and it was someone else's turn. The librarian could add time to the timer if they saw the person was doing legitimate work. Also, the librarian showed me a program that would allow her to see what was on the monitor from her office, so she could see if someone was goofing off and just switching to something educational to get her to give them time. What I REALLY liked was the sign:

"Time limit on computers: 20 minutes, but more can be added if you are working on your education, (Limit is 10 minutes if you're playing Runescape, I hate that game)"

all of the people around me regardles of their age are looking at facebook or some equivalent.  A few are looking for work, but I think the whole notion of the internet as an educational tool has gone out the window

Not everyone is going to draw the line in exactly the same place. The important thing is that they draw it somewhere, and that they are consistent about it, whether at home, at someone's house or in a public place. And it's not just a matter of keeping the kids on a leash. They need to hear why they're not allowed to do something. The mistake a lot of people make is assuming the kid is too young to understand and putting it off.

Yes, every kid is going to act up sometimes, and some parents are more laid back than others, but I can see a difference between kids who have consistent boundaries from the beginning and those whose parents are just sort of winging it when it comes to discipline. By discipline, I mean teaching self-control. We don't really give out any punishment per se. It's not really needed.

I was one of those kids who spent hours on the computer in school, every chance I got.  I was that kid.  I spent more hours than I can count on computers, in arcades -- any time I could get to do so.  Through middle school, high school, and college.  Some of med school too, although I was pinched hard for time by then and by then I had sworn off all multi-user dungeons and related games.  (Includes WoW, which to this day I have never seen on a screen, and will never play.)

It's not a an end-all.  I still turned out educated and successful by most measures, thus far.  I was physically active, I did my homework, I respected my parents (because they deserved it), and I learned self-control. 

I suspect that your aggravation isn't about their computer gaming, but about the implied lack of teaching other important things.