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      I think this will be at least slightly less controversial than an Iraq war thread, or what one would have been a few years back.

    I'm not trying to start some s**t, I'm actually curious as to what people think we should do.  on the one hand,  there's no doubt we could improve things at least temporarily with a massive "surge".  On the other hand, we've been there since 2001!  Wecan't stay forever.

I'm for leaving

I'm for option 3 or 4.  It's a strategic military decision so I won't pretend to know how many troops are needed.  If the Taliban regained control of Afghanistan and allowed Al-Quaeda a chance to rebuild, all the blood and treasure we spent would be in vain. 

Unfortunately, Iraq complicated the issue.  Who knows what would have happened if we had been able to focus on Afghanistan, as we should have, instead of dividing our resources in two separate theaters?

I tend to agree with Rev in many ways, but I also question the accuracy of info I have access to. I never get the feeling that I get anything close to a complete and honest truth from American media.

History leaves me skittish regarding Afghanistan.

Ghengis Khan could not take and hold Afghanistan.

Alexander the Great could not take and hold Afghanistan.

The British at their peak could not take and hold Afghanistan.

The Soviets could not take and hold Afghanistan. 

Not even the Afgahns could could take Afghanastan.

It's a tough call, either way.  I am in that 33% that still thinks going into Iraq was the right thing to do, and I thank God that Bush pretty much won that war before Obama could come in and throw away everything our boys fought and died for . . .

Afghanistan is a much tougher proposition.  The bald fact of the matter is that fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with a progressive, Western-style democracy.  I mean, these are the barbarians that stone their daughters to death for getting raped and behead anyone who tries to convert away from their stone age nightmare of a religion!  But walking away is not an option - that would simply leave the place a greater breeding ground for terrorism than it already is, and paint a target on every U.S. soldier serving abroad.

What's called for here is ruthlessness, determination, and strength - something our new President has shown very little of so far.

indianismith- so you don't like obama.  duly noted.



here is a view (http://original.antiwar.com/lind/2009/09/22/last-exit-before-quagmire/)  from fancy pants type "4th generation warfare" type guy William S Lind.

He has a number of interesting thoughts, though as you can see from the website name they tend to go in a certain direction.  

His argument focuses aronud the idea that afghanistan doesn't have a working state, democractic, totalitarian or other.  Saudi Arabai isn't a democracy , but they have a state.

His controversial suggestion is to allow the taliban to be part of a power sharing sort of government.  wouldn't that mean al queda wil be back?  no , says lind, because they are sitting pretty in Pakistan.


lind sums up the "leaked" war report thusly

""If you don’t give us more troops, we will fail. But you shouldn’t give us more troops unless we adopt a new strategy, which we don’t have. And even if you do give us the troops we want for the new strategy we haven’t got, they will not be enough to achieve success."

Imma let you finish, but....

Joking aside, how can I take this article seriously when he says:

"Russia's withdrawal of 1988-89 led to the collapse of the Soviet Empire. What would a U.S. withdrawal do to the American Empire?"

As if THAT was the only thing that changed things in Russia.  We've pulled out before, and those we left behind got screwed. And our society didn't collapse.  It won't now. Well, not over THIS.

Unless we intend to fully occupy and utterly control any piece of foreign land, someone will always come in behind us and try to take charge.  We have enough issues here that the idea of fully occupying a foreign country is a bit silly.  If the people who live there aren't able to keep anyone, including us, from occupying their land, well, tough s**t.  But make it clear that whoever occupies that land to not interfere with the USA or make threats against us or our allies.  Once is a warning, and the second time, we should leave a huge bloody footprint that will enable someone else to come in and see what THEY can do with that country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

This great man tried to warn us, and he was right. I think the United States has long since reached the point where if we follow the money---in this case the MIC but also big drug companies, big oil, etc.---we are forced to see that the powers behind the visible leaders have become so strong that this country can no longer go for any length of time without involvement in conflict somewhere, and I think it has realistically gone beyond any President's ability to change this. I say this by way of stating that US presence in Afghanistan may or may not go on for the foreseeable future but other conflicts will arise, only the location will be different, the people getting rich off the war will be the same. I admire most of the people I've met who serve in our military and for that reason have grown very tired of seeing them misused. As for my opinion of Afghanistan, the goals the United States has set are probably hopelessly unrealistic ones and whenever western troops leave that basket case nation, things will return to the way they have been throughout most of recorded history, with regional warlords and drug lords and religious fanatics dividing the nation among them, and the poor, women, "deviants" of all stripe will suffer. I have a close friend whose stepbrother recently deployed for Afghanistan on his second tour there (this after one in Iraq in 2003-2004). He volunteered to be there, he is more or less a career soldier who loves the army, but his opinion is to pull American forces out immediately because the mission just cannot be accomplished. I respect his opinion and have to go with him on that.

But then again: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113238321

ER-  I agree.

Alan Grayson (http://bit.ly/JClU5)

current dem loud mouth point man Alan Grayson says it best here:  we should just leave people alone, that's the best foreign policy.

He makes the point that basically there is no afghanistan.  It's an area that people call afghanistan but it's not a country, more of a collection of different groups all of whom call themselves by those names no afghanis.

scroll down a little for the transcript/ vid.  best argument I've heard yet

Its time to abandon the failed bush administration way of doing things. Lets get the hell out.

I'll come out and say it.

Radicalized Islam (which accounts for most Muslims in the Middle East and Europe now) is the greatest evil the world has faced in the modern age.  Their goal is the forcible conversion of the entire planet to their faith, and with Saudi oil money behind it, they come closer to achieving that goal every year.

This is a culture that is determined to destroy everything Western Civilization has tried to build since Pericles ruled Athens.  They do not believe in democracy.  They do not believe in freedom of speech.  They do not believe in freedom of religion.  They do not believe in women's rights.  They do not believe in a free press. They do not believe in tolerance.  They believe in Allah, and they believe in jihad.  Their proverb is "First comes Saturday, then comes Sunday!"  By which they mean, first they destroy the Jews, then they destroy the Christians.  And by Christians, they mean all non-Islamic Westerners, whether they ever darken the door of a church or not.

   They are taking over Europe by sheer demographics.  Ethnic Europeans are having, on average, slightly more than one child per couple.  Muslim immigrants - many of them more radical than their Middle Eastern counterparts - are having six children per couple.  As their percentage of the population increases, so will their demands for "accommodations" for their faith.  How long before Sharia Law rules in London, Denmark, Norway, and St. Petersburg?  It may be within our lifetimes.

  They will tell you "Islam is a religion of peace."  It is not.  Islam does not mean "peace" but "surrender".  The Western world has two choices - surrender or resistance.
 Resistance is hard.  Resistance means ongoing war.  Resistance means being labelled as cruel and intolerant.  Resistance means suffering  terrorist attacks on a regular basis.  Resistance also means being stuck in hell holes like Afghantstant for the foreseeable future.  But resistance is the only way that the freedoms we cherish will be preserved.

I don't expect any applause for pointing this out.  It is an ugly truth, and many peplple would prefer not to hear it.  But I feel I have to give the warning.  The future is fraught with conflict.

indianasmith-   I'm going to be brutally honest with you:  that was a very tired rehashing of alot of the type of paranoia that they used to get us to invade iraq.

1.  muslims don't want to take over our countries. they want us out of THEIR countries.

2.  muslims aren't taking over America or Europe.  Europe has massive welfare state that has drawn a ton of 3rd world immigrants.  they aren't coming to europe to turn it into a muslim state.  if they did, they are doing a pretty bad job of it as they are very under represented in the big companies and governments of these countries.  virtually every other ethnic group has higher representations in these areas.


"How long before Sharia Law rules in London, Denmark, Norway, and St. Petersburg?  It may be within our lifetimes."

LePen and co have been saying this since forever to get votes.  St Petersberg??  russia?  




see your belief in this stuff has turned you into a trotsky-ite.  the perpetual revolution.

this is no different than the global warming alarmism, it's an excuse for the government to grab more power and more of our tax dollars.



even if you believe all this stuff you believe about afghanistan, this makes no sense.

how is staying in afghanistan even HELPING the alleged war on terror?  it simply drains us of more blood and treasure and makes us weaker.


All I can say is a fool and his money are soon parted. you've bought into the neo con spiel about muslim domination hook line and sinker. enough so that you are willing to forfeit your normal conservative take on things and give the government everything and everyone it needs to fight the war on terror.


You should really go and talk to some muslims and see what they have to say.  I think it would give you alot of persepctive on this issue.

The only problem with talking to Muslims is that their faith teaches them that lying to an infidel is not only not a sin, it is actually a virtuous act if it benefits Islam!

You are wrong.  The goal of Islam is and always has been the forcible conversion of the world.  Muhammad was a man of the sword.  He put his enemies to death and forced the surrender of the city of Mecca with an army of 10,000 at his back.  The final suras of the Q'uran, given out shortly before his death, contravened his earlier statements of tolerance and called for perpetual war against the infidel.

It is not a matter of liberal versus conservative or Christian versus agnostic.  To the devout Muslim, the world is divided into two halve:  "Dar Al Islam" - the abode of Islam - and "Dar al Jihad" - the abode of war.

I am not saying that there are not peaceful, progressive Mulsims.  I have known a few,  but they are largely irrelevant because the fanatical, jihadist Muslims are in the driver's seat.  Did you know that the departments of "Middle Eastern Studies" in virtually every major university in American are funded by Saudi oil money and staffed by "academics" who spend their lecture time justifying Palestinian terrorism, denouncing Israel, and condemning U.S. policy and society?

I know that you hate Israel and would just as soon it be gone.  But there is only one historic homeland of the Jewish people in the whole world, and that is in Israel.  They are a beacon of light and civilization in the midst of some of the wold's most brutal, repressive, and backwards countries.  Their standard of living and open society are a daily reproach to the barbaric Arabs who surround them and call daily for their exetrmination.  But the Jews were living in that land  and building their civilization there 1700 years before Muhammad was born.  Israel is their historic home, and they have a right to live there.

I relize you will never agree.

But I am telling  you the problem is Islam itself!  It holds that whole region enslaved to the dark ages!

I was casually discussing global realpolitik with a friend of mine the other day who said (as close to a direct quote as memory serves), "It's time for a Final Solution to the Islamic problem."

The great irony is my friend is a Jew.

 :buggedout:  sorry, but I have no words...

What was it Nietzche said?  "Whoever fights monsters must take care lest he become a monster."

Still, it seems as if there is an inexorable collision in the offing.  At some point, when the Arab world feels strong enough, they are going to try to take out Israel again.  And if they are close to success, Israel will take out as many of them as it can before going down.  What do you want to bet at least one of Israel's nukes is aimed at Mecca?

However, I believe that the end may well come before things reach that point.

the war-

weve all probably had this conversation a million times. sometimes people get a little touchy about it. im not for the war or against it, i just dont understand any of it. i dont think anybody does. i do believe that our leaders dont have our best interest in mind. they are the ones who are profiting off of this war. like every single thing that makes this world go around, this war, like all war is business. im sick of it, it would be nice to go ahead and get on with our lives but everything is being affected now. theres no end in sight, its perpetual. nobody will ever get along over there, they never have. its only a matter of time before somebody gets nuked and WWIII starts. at least we now have a place to test weopons and reason to allow the gov to do whatever the hell it wants to. they have there "great satan" and can get their 72 virgins when they die. i tend to offend people when they get all patriotic on me, even when we agree. i like to ask  "how can somebody fight for my freedom in another country?".  9/11 is a touchy subject too, i like to ask "why should we go to war just because some A-hole crashed a plane into a building?". i think if airport security had done their job, we could have saved thousands of lives and trillions of dollars. please dont be offended, these are just my opinions and i may have gotten off of subject a little.

I'm not offended, but I am somewhat appalled.

Afghanistan sheltered, trained, and sponsored Al Qaeda's training camps, where the 9/11 hijackers prepared for their mission.  Those guys looked into our system, saw where the security flaws were, took advantage of them, and murdered 3000 Americans in a day.  Had we NOT gone into Afghanistan, those same camps would have turned out one terror cell after another, looking for the next weakness - maybe a bucket of Anthrax in the New York Subway's AC system, maybe a suitcase nuke to the Superbowl.  Point is, we went in there and shut them down.  As long as we are there, those camps will never re open.  When we leave, they probably will.  You really think the Taliban will come out and play nice after hiding in caves and losing their soldiers to us for 6 years?  No.  They will talk sweet and diplomatically while plotting to hit us again.  When dealing with people who will willingly die to take out your civilians, the only strategy that works is to keep them on the defensive.  Obama is deliberately abandoning that strategy.  The next 9/11 is the inevitable result.

what does this have to do with us being in Afghanistan?

We went in there to drive out the taliban and al queda and catch bin laden.

I think indiana smith has inadvertantly pointed out the real reason for all of this:  not America's but Israel's security.

I wish Israel the best.  The israeli people are free, as all nations are too fight for what they feel is theirs.

That is NOT the reason we are SUPPOSED to be in afghanistan.  Other countries security is not the perview of our armed forces as per our constitution.




bro,  the planning for 9/11 was sone in Germany and New York , on computers and in hotel rooms as much as in afghanistan.  that's where those cells came together.  YOu know the Hamburg cell?  They weren't called that because they liked eating hamburgers.

more to the point, All those camps are open and bigger and better in pakistan. If we shut those down, somehow,  they will open somplace else.  

We have to address WHY they want to attack us and it's not because of our freedoms.  They don't look at our right to a speedy trial and say that must end.  They want us out of their countries.  that's the reason they have given time and time again.  resentment of americas foreign policy is the gift that keeps on giving for dictators and terrorists alike.  it allows them public support because Muslims really don't like our support of dictators.  can you believe that?  people in egypt, saudi ararbia, Jordan and elsewhere really don't like how we give billions of dollars and weapons to their unelected tyrants!  

  

???  you seem to have no understanding of the equation here.  there isn't a finite number of terrorists.  terrorism is a  PHENOMENON.   If you kill a thousand terrorist without addressing the underelying problems there will be a thousand more the next day.  People in places like syria and yemen have 10-12 kids.  You can kill a thousand terrorists a day for the next hunddred years and you won't make a dent.  there are a billion muslims,  virtually all of whom want us to butt out in their side of the world.


Bro,  you need to stop reading that neocon stuff, it's got you thinking really batty stuff about the world and you're role as an american in promoting liberty not war.

I 'd recommend you check out michael scheuer (http://security.nationaljournal.com/contributors/Scheuer.php) or Steven walt (http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/).  they have right of center views like yours but a clearer, less dramatic understanding of this issue.

as you may know I very nearly lost two memebers of my family on 911.  My Stepmother was in twoer two in the stairwell when the 2nd plane hit, My father was on the ground outside. i'm not prone to believeing a bunch of nonsense about this, I consider it my duty to prevent another 9/11.  

"We have to address WHY they want to attack us and it's not because of our freedoms.  They don't look at our right to a speedy trial and say that must end.  They want us out of their countries.  that's the reason they have given time and time again.  resentment of americas foreign policy is the gift that keeps on giving for dictators and terrorists alike.  it allows them public support because Muslims really don't like our support of dictators.  can you believe that?  people in egypt, saudi ararbia, Jordan and elsewhere really don't like how we give billions of dollars and weapons to their unelected tyrants!"

That's where we part ways.  If we leave the Middle East tomorrow, Israel will fall.  The Islamization of Europe will follow.  Then they will come for us - not in an armed invasion, but pouring out of our prisons, our ghettos, and mosques across America, where they have steadily been preaching hate and winning converts under our noses.

  You think these people are rational and they are not.  The goal of Islam is and always has been the forcible conversion of the whole world.  Read the Q'uran, for goodness' sake!  The difference between now and the 12th century is they actually HAVE the money to underwrite their efforts.  U.S. policy wil ALWAYS be antagonistic towards people who want to bend the whole world to their way of thinking.
I would recommend YOU read Mark Steyn's AMERICA ALONE - THE END OF THE WORLD WAS WE KNOW IT.  There is a guy who understands the threat.

I hope our foreign policy will always be such that evil people hate us.  That means we are right.

all I can say is leave the neoconservative books ON THE SHELF it is turning YOU into an extremist.

you can believe what you want but my tax dollars are not going to go towards you and your like minded bretherens paranoia.   that's where I draw the line

If islam is such a big problem for you go to the middle east and try to convert them to christianity a la ann coulter.  leave me and this country  out of it

better yet come to your senses and stop it with all this hatefull apocolyptic nonsense.

See what religion causes?  :lookingup:

There's no Heaven or Hell for me



In my world, there's no religion just clowns, doggetts, movies, dandruff and 80's goodness.

I've also never had a war.

Coincidence ? I think not.

The libertarian world is a beautiful place - leave everybody alone and they will leave us alone. 

A shame life isn't like that.

Circus, it isn't about RELIGION in general.  It's about ONE religion that believes violence is an acceptable tool to win converts, backed up by multiple billions of dollars in Saudi Oil money and a clergy that endorses terrorism.

Before someone brings up the Crusades and the Inquisition and all that tired old stuff again, let me just put it this way:

The church could only justify murder by totally ignoring everything Jesus Christ taught, in an age when 95% of the population were illiterate and did not KNOW what He actually said.  A Christtian who kills in the name of his fatih is  disobeying both Christ's words and His example.

A Muslim who kills in the name of his faith is simply obeying the words and emulating the actions of Muhammad himself.

Lester, I hope you are never in a position to find out how wrong you are about these people. To everyone else, thanks for your patience.

Lets not have a fallin' out fellas. :bluesad:

It's OK, Doggett!

Lester and I have beaten around this particular Bush many times.  He and I have a profound difference of opinions, but I respect his right to his opinion, and (I think) he respects my right to mine.

And I'll be absolutely honest - I HOPE I am wrong.

But I doubt I am.

I'm glad.

 :cheers:
I'm very fond of the both of you, I just don't want there to be any epic falling out.

When it comes to topics like this, people need to avoid pressing the issue, because nobody is going to change anybody's views. We do well on here for not having big bust ups and need to remember we're only posting our opinions most of the time, not facts and commandments.  :smile:

sure, we will always have to have a homeland security mechanism of some kind to keep out determined crazies and stop them from doing harm, but our foreign policy has ALOT to do with the size and intensity of the terrorist phenomenon.  banks have to worry about being robbed, but not as much as they would have to if we had,say, 36% unemployment or something.  not the greatest analogy but the point is our foreign policy heightens rather than lessens the threat.  terrorism is essentially a business that makes money off of our interventionism and business/recruiting would be pretty slow without it.



but isn't this what you're advocating? wasn't Christ the prince of peace?


well thank you. disclosure: I know alot of muslims.  this is how I formed many of my opnions about the region, not by libertarian philosophy.  They are generally rather conservative socially and very into their families and community which is where alot of their resentment of American interventions and globalism and so forth comes from.

there are also non religious issues that simply have to do with land and foreigners on that land.  the palestinian israeli conflict was, until like a decade ago, called the arab israeli conflict and was seen as racial in nature.  it's been "islamized" by the media and that element is there but mainly it's ALL about the west stepping on their turf and the resentment of America and rejection of israel stems from this much moreso than fatwas and so forth.

love thine enemy at any rate

Well enough said.  As I commented at the outset, I never expected agreement from you.  I won't deny you make a few valid points, BUT I see Islam itself at the root of the violence and terror, and you don't. 

I doubt either of us is moving from our position much.

just remember God loves them just as much as he loves you!

Stop the madness!!

Thanks, I almost choked to death on my coffee reading that.  :teddyr:

Tell God I don't like it when He touches me in my private place.  :bluesad:

?

I don't get it. are you saying God doesn't love muslims? or are you weirded out by my  overt religiosity

No, I'm saying scew god, all gods. It's time peole just loved eachother, instead of caring more about some ghost than human life.

they tried that under this guy Stalin,  it didn't really pan out.  people tend to create their own version of God one way or another so I thnk it's best to go to one that has some sort of structure and at least arguable logic to it.  otherwise you can end up with guys like Lenin or stuff like this, just makin stuff up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7KodQEoWYI

no disrespect to any Nesarrians present.


at any rate I respect atheists and was making a christian argument to someone I know is a christian I don't intend to flounce around quoting Isiah and malachi in reference to Al Adamson or something so don't worry.

This is gonna turn into an argument again....

QUICK SOMEONE CHANGE THE SUBJECT !!!!!

So....Capri pants, eternally fashionable or a recurring fashion mistake? Feel free to tawk amongst yourselves, this issue is a heavy one, I know.

Thank you for another high quality gem for rstdt!

(http://www.gap.com/Asset_Archive/GPWeb/Assets/Product/482/482845/main/gp482845-00p01v01.jpg)

I think they're a mistake.
They're for people who aren't decisive enough to choose either trousers or shorts.

You can never go wrong with Capri pants.  They show off my hairy legs and toenail fungus so beautifully . . .   :teddyr: :buggedout: