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I'm afraid this may be a long post, but I must vent my extreme frustration and displeasure over the pamphlet ("Darwin's Legacy - An Epic Blockbuster Production") that was pushed through my door this morning. It was put together by a man named Bill Mason, deacon of the Leyland pentecostal church and is filled with completely laughable opinions and arguments, trying to push beliefs onto residents of this area.

One of the main issues I have with it  (and there's lots!), is the fact that it puts forward a case for Charles Darwin being responsible for the Nazi uprising, both major world wars and the downfall of industrial Britain! I have never read anything so one-sided and filled with so much bile and hate. To say I was shocked is an understatement. I have contacted Bill Mason by email and plan to go up to the church later. I have also informed the borough council (as it blatantly attacks them too) about this pamphlet being posted around.

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Here are some select snippets:

"Concurrent with Darwin's barmy ideas there arose a brand of theology with the pretentious title of 'Higher Criticism' this was a liberal interpretation of the Bible, by a motley crew of decrepit carpet-baggers, or shall we say sorry scholars, which effectively undermined its integrity and cast doubt on most of its important claims. This chattering class of time-wasters carved into the 'science' of evolutionary, socialistic philosophy. They were instrumental in millions of church-goers losing their faith and also creating a massive falling away from the church, resulting in many of them closing down permanently."

*My argument is always this - If the church has all the answers (which it thinks it does) and their faith is so strong, then nobody would be turning away from the church. Also, if Bill Mason is so steadfast in his beliefs then why must he feel so threatened as to go out of his way to write a pamphlet to denounce one man's "theories"?? He has done this without even a modicum on integrity in my opinion.

"It is tragic to think that here in Britain and other parts of Europe politicians and 'intellectuals' - that must be an oxymoron - actually drooled over this appalling man (Darwin), he could do no wrong to their blind eyes!"

"Darwin just made assumptions - there IS NO EVIDENCE  -around which his adoring, free loading followers, jumping with rabid glee could bury the great god of the bible. When anyone pointed out a flaw in the theory it was easy - just 'invent' another assumption to bridge the gap."

*Oh, he means just like the bible or any catholic, protestant or christian I have ever met then? This is a man referring to a book of text over a hundred years old. Theories and "evidence" that have since been expanded on and proven to the fullest extent that technology will allow at present. A man basing his whole life and ideas on a book thousands of years old, that is far more sensationalist, that people cherry pick from to fit their own lives and 'invent' endless reasons to justify their own arguements.

"If atheism is so wonderful why don't they exhort us all and emigrate to North Korea."

"There does appear to be a moral cowardice amongst evolutionists, either that or their vanity will not permit them to share a platform with people who to question their 'faith'."

*Cowardice? Vanity? I consider myself a modest person, but proud of my own individual thought. I like to think I am well read, more so that deacon Mason, so he should prepare himself and his vast hypocrisy....

"Geology, archaeology all point to a very recent creation, followed by a corruption, then a world flood which instantly buried millions of creatures turning them into sedimentary rock. There is no evidence that life appeared from non-life or that animals can change 'magically' into different animals! The Tommy Coopers of the evolution industry try hard to 'conjure' up new evidence to support their wacky theories and thus acquire funding from the long suffering tax-payer. We would all be better off if they were stacking shelves in Tesco!"

*Okay, so he needs to go and read a few more text books, and also explain to me the lack of "dinosaurs" in the bible. The Tommy Cooper line is just another example of cheap childish name calling, which in no way helps this man's hateful rantings. He makes another hypocritical point about tax payers money (that made me laugh!), how much does the church ask for and get each year!?
It will surely pale in comparison to scientific research, which I feel is far more important than idol worship. And finally, what's so bad about working in Tesco? There's probably one of his 'flock' that works as a shelf stacker? Won't they be offended by that unnecessary snipe? I believe in evolution over millions of years and yet my job is to help people in emergency situations, which I do well. Attacking people and just "praying" that things will be better doesn't solve a situation.

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I'm sorry if anyone takes offence to this post. It is not aimed at anyone or their specific belief system, it is just my reaction to something I strongly disagree with on moral grounds. It was posted through "my" door, therefore I feel I have a right to express myself on the matter.

WOW

I'm getting angry on your behalf.  :hatred:

That stuff is out of order.

"If atheism is so wonderful why don't they exhort us all and emigrate to North Korea."

We would if we could, but it's fun to laugh at stupid people sometimes. :teddyr:

There does appear to be a moral cowardice amongst evolutionists, either that or their vanity will not permit them to share a platform with people who to question their 'faith'

Science is theories and ideas that are questioned constantly. That's the bloody point of it ! The problem is, religious people don't like the answers.

Geology, archaeology all point to a very recent creation, followed by a corruption, then a world flood which instantly buried millions of creatures turning them into sedimentary rock. There is no evidence that life appeared from non-life or that animals can change 'magically' into different animals!

I think the word he is looking for is mutation, not "magic" Gimmie a break.

He must not "believe" in caterpillars and butterflies then, or the ageing process for that matter.

wow. I would be livid as well. Where the hell does he get off. What he is preaching is fine, in church, where it belongs.
Sorry you had to deal with this idiot today.

This guy sounds like a nutbar. People like this give good, rational Christians a bad name.

It sure does. I'm not letting this drop either, as it's so wacked out. I really, really hope this backfires big time on this guy because he has not checked his facts at all. The church said he wouldn't speak to me tonight, so I will go again tomorrow.

I ain't clowning around.  :hatred:

Just try not to get emotional, just stay rational and calm with good arguments. Who knows, maybe you can make him see the "light". But realistically, some one with such entrenched irrational beliefs is gonna be hard pressed to give them up. Good luck though. :thumbup:  Keep fighting the good fight!!!

As a Christian, I am almost afraid to post here . . .  but Circus, if you promise not to bite TOO HARD, I'll add my own comments.

"Young Earth" creationists, such as your Deacon Bill here, do NOT represent a majority of Christians.  Period.  I have dealt with his kind many times, and they are very frustrating to talk to.

I am a practicing Christian of the Baptist persuasion.  I am also an amateur paleontologist.  I have read the Bible through multiple times.  I have also excavated nearly a dozen prehistoric beasts in my lifetime (1 mammoth, 1 mastodon, 1 plesiosaur, and about 8 partial or nearly complete mosasaurs).  I see no conflict in my belief in God as our Creator and my belief that the earth is millions, if not billions, of years old.

Bottom line, as one who has spent a lifetime studying the Scriptures, is this:
A careful reading of the Biblical creation account does not require a "young" earth, nor does it rule out evolution as a means of biological diversification.

There are many, many ways to interpret the narrative found in the first six chapters of Genesis.  But the basic message of science and evolution and the basic message of Scripture are not that far apart:

Once there was nothing.  Now there is something.

Where we differ is simply this - was something MADE to happen, or did it happen all by itself?

Geneticists are fond of telling us that a single strand of human DNA contains enough written, coded information to fill all 66 volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica.  Evolution would ask us to believe that all of that code was written by pure chance, operating through natural selection.

I find that harder to believe than the idea that a divine architect created life on this planet.

In the meantime, I wouldn't waste too much time on poor old Deacon Bill.  He probably means well, but his mind is small enough to be threatened by the admission that God's creation is too vast and complex for us too fully understand, or cram into a 6,000 year old box.

Thanks for your input Indy.  :smile:

I was interested to see what your view would be of this, especially as I know full well of your interest in archaeology. I respect other peoples opinions and beliefs, but obviously I have my own and don't always agree. This man just gives many men of the cloth a very bad name. I admit I think many religions do serve a purpose for teaching between right and wrong and is comfort for the ones that go searching for it. What I don't like is aggressive propaganda.

Geez, that really sucks.  At least he didn't actually come to your door and TALK to you though.. that probably would have ended badly.

The bright side of this is that he is probably turning more intelligent people away from his cause by passing out flyers like that.

I believe in Jesus and all, but I really think it should be someone's choice - some people are just going to choose not to.  No one should be forced, bullied, frightened, harrassed or guilted into believing anything.   

Is it possible that "evolution" is a tool used by a "creator"? Food for thought!

Thanks indy, and karma too. :thumbup:

That is my point of view - I lean towards the so-called "gap theory", as well as some theistic evolution, to explain the diversity of the animal and plant kingdoms. 

I do believe, however, that mankind himself is a unique creation, imbued by God with in immortal soul that is crafted in the Creator's own image.  That is where our creative impulse comes from.  In nothing does man so much resemble his maker as in his desire to create for the sake of creating.

And Paquita, I agree with you as well - faith HAS to be voluntarily chosen, not compelled, or it is not faith at all.  That is why Jesus told his disciples, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations."
Not conquer.  Not coerce. Not threaten.


Teach.

This is my problem with these "young earth" folks.   Darwin's theory has nothing to do with the creation of life on this planet.  Those who claim to be people of faith spend too much time trying to make proof for the "how and when" of the creation instead of having faith in the "Who and why".

Evolution to me is blatantly evident all around doesn't conflict in anyway with the Biblical creations story .



I've always been mystified with people's belief that "being made in God's image" means that he physically looks like us. Even as a child I believed that this meant we were given a creative mind, a soul, and a conscience.

I see that, if there were a creator (a god), then it would be further evolved than man, far removed from any mould for flesh and bone, but a being of pure energy or an alien force, that is sexless and of no fixed race. The only thing that freaks me out is, if a "god" exists, then who created it, who created its creator and so on, and so on.

Have you yelled at him yet, Circus ?

He wouldn't speak to me at the church and I recieved and email about 10mins ago in which he put: "I have no time to deal with a low-life Marxist".

That's becuase he scared you could 'ave 'im in an argument.
What a coward.

When I was but a wee lad, I went to Catholic school (kindergarten until 8th grade, in fact), and I actually remember in the 7th grade or so... asking that exact question.

They just looked at me cross, and that was it. Lol.

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school but I became disillusioned with it all by age 14. They never liked you to ask questions or debate anything. I remember one guy got suspended and kicked out of religious studies for "asking too many questions". I also remember my religious studies teacher claiming that his class was more important that maths, science and english!! I don't know about you but praying doesn't sort out my tax rebate and I think the bible requires some level of literacy to understand.  :lookingup:

Oh, what you trying to claim back ?

Just an example, that's all.  :smile:

Yeah, much the same here. My school wasn't quite as, dare I say, fascistic, but by the time I was in high school I was an atheist. Nowadays, I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm 100% atheistic, but I'm not willing to pull out the agnostic card. I've occasionally described myself as a "lapsing atheist," but mostly I'm just mixed-up. Ever since my whole near-death medical emergency, ya know? It's like that old saying, about how there's now such thing as an atheist on a falling airplane. It's just kind of, in a crisis like that, it's almost instinctual to resort back to the beliefs that were instilled in you from childhood, even if on a conscious level you no longer believe them (or claim to believe them). And then that kind shook up my whole belief structure in general, and I'm not even sure what I am or what I believe. Aaaaaaaaand... I'm rambling. Didn't mean to do that. ANYWAY, what I was gonna say was... yeah, I see it a lot from people who went to Catholic school. It seems like the best way to KEEP your kids from Catholicism, is to send 'em to Catholic school. Most people seem to get burnt out from the nonstop exposure, disillusioned (like you), or just so freaking repressed that they out-and-out reject the whole thing and go hog wild when they get free of it.

I HATE it when people who claim to be Christians pull stuff like that!  Your questions are just as worthy of answer as anyone else's.  I will answer, or at least try to answer, any question about matters of faith you care to put to me, and I won't insult you for asking them!

Not sure you're being fair, Trekgeezer, and I don't agree with Indianasmith but understand what he's written is to describe the resemblance between us mortals and God the almighty, not our looks but our inclination.   :wink:  I think what you've said, true enough, is apparent in what Indiana had said.   :smile:

I don't know which part for sure is  unfair, but I do see a difference between people of real faith and those who only purport to have faith in order to push an agenda. 

Yep. The kind the pray, go to church, practice what they preach..etc.  Then there are the other ones, the ones that use the bible like a sword to hurt those they think beneath them all the while not practicing what they preach. yep, not a fan of the second kind. 

Circus, my take is that your wasting your energy fighting this guy.  I used to get outraged by this stuff when I was younger.  After a decade or so of trying to argue with these sorts of folks, I realized that it's not worth it.  You can't change his opinion by using logic.   

He's making the same mistake, basically.  From the quotes you selected, he seems to believe that he has logical arguments, and once the unbelievers read them, they will be convinced of the error of their ways.  But he's really just preaching to the choir, there's nothing in that tract that's going to change anyone's opinion.

In my opinion, the worst crime the guy can be accused of is littering for stuffing unsolicited propaganda under your door. 

It's different on these boards: we're among friends, we know each other as real people, not anonymous folks behind closed doors.  We can carry on a civilized and respectful debate about these issues without too many hurt feelings.  Your Deacon doesn't sound interested in a debate where he might learn something new.  He's got all the answers already, poor guy.  Nothing to do about someone like that but just smile at him condescendingly, and move on with your life.     

 

Thanks Rev, and I know you're right. I just wanted to make a splash about it, because it did get to me and I know that other people may not be bothered or even worse, may listen to him. Darwinism in particular is a subject close to my heart, to see it taken out of context and used to make ghastly assumptions, well I couldn't bear it. I know I'm not going to get a decent discussion or rational answers from a man like that. I already feel he has made a fool of himself, I think he knows that too. So, I shall be the bigger man and not continue to let it bother me or to vent  in all the ways that I have tried to.  :smile:

Yeah Circus, you've a good heart and a reason to be outraged, but you probably won't change a zealots mind. You can use the Deacon as the zenith or mile stone of a miserable human being, though. Life iss a weird trip and personally, I always learn more from bad examples than from so called good ones. I don't always know what to do, but from bad examples I generally know what NOT to do.

I worked at a place where we received shipments from West Virginia with this stuff in it www.chick.com and I used to collect them in the office to peruse over. It's awful funny how many archaic ways there are to burn in hell, while helping others and harming none!

I used to collect CHICK tracts when I was a kid.  Some of them were fairly doctrinally solid (from a Biblical viewpoint), and some of them were just out there . . .  personally, I think faith should be more about falling in love with God and less about fearing hell.

Bold words.  You the man.