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Movies => Press Releases and Film News => Topic started by: Joe the Destroyer on March 22, 2010, 12:32:39 AM



Title: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Joe the Destroyer on March 22, 2010, 12:32:39 AM
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/historic-change-for-us-after-obamas-health-care-bill-passed/story-e6frf7lf-1225843896004


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: indianasmith on March 22, 2010, 06:16:29 AM
%$##@!!!! Socialists just bankrupted our country.  So long, America!


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: 3mnkids on March 22, 2010, 06:31:18 AM
 :cheers:  Its about time.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: InformationGeek on March 22, 2010, 08:22:29 AM
*shrugs* I don't know how to feel since I didn't research the topic much.  I hope this helps people if it can.  Since this is done, what do you think Obama should focus on next?


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: akiratubo on March 22, 2010, 09:01:11 AM
%$##@!!!! Socialists just bankrupted our country.  So long, America!

Well, we could end a lot of other useless programs to free up money for it but that's not going to happen.

This ruined my day.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jim H on March 22, 2010, 03:27:51 PM
%$##@!!!! Socialists just bankrupted our country.  So long, America!

It's quite a bit less expensive than the Iraq war was and is (health plan is going to cost tax payers something like 50-60 billion a year, Iraq + Afghanistan was $136 billion in 2009), as far as I can tell that didn't quite bankrupt us.  Thirty years of NASA, in adjusted dollars, is actually MORE expensive (currently it's at about 17 billion a year).  No need to be alarmist about this.  Whether it passed or didn't, life is going to go on in this country.

I have a friend with bad knees, a family history of alzheimer's and a long history of awful migraines.  At this point, I should think he's pretty happy, as they raised the age cap for children covered to 26 (he's 25) under family heath plans and are eliminating pre-existing condition denials.  He's been without health care for several years now. 

Myself, it looks like I'll be upgrading from the current crap I have now, which is basically useless unless I'm hit by a truck (no coverage til like the $10,000 mark). 

We'll see how well the plan functions as a whole, but anyone who can't see ANY good in it isn't looking hard enough. 


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: indianasmith on March 22, 2010, 06:37:43 PM
I'm not saying there is NOTHING good about it.  I'm saying that we simply can't afford it. Our country has a national debt of $14 trillion, an annual deficit of over a trillion now, and this bill, by the President's own scoring, will cost another trillion . . . . and I'll almost guarantee those numbers are off.  Every single entitlement ever passed has cost more than projected, and once in place, are virtually impossible to reduce or eliminate.


What we will see is broader health coverage in exchange for longer waits, worse care, higher premiums for those with private insurance, higher death rates from cancer, and most doctors simply opting out of Medicare altogether.  This was a horrible, horrible bill.  Ask any doctor how he feels about it.

On the bright side, a whole lot of Democrats signed their political death warrants last night.  Shame I'm in a Republican district . . . I'd love to be on the "firing squad" come election day (figurative use of the term ONLY, not an endorsement of political violence of any sort!).


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jim H on March 22, 2010, 07:13:49 PM
I'm not saying there is NOTHING good about it.  I'm saying that we simply can't afford it. Our country has a national debt of $14 trillion, an annual deficit of over a trillion now, and this bill, by the President's own scoring, will cost another trillion . . . . and I'll almost guarantee those numbers are off.  Every single entitlement ever passed has cost more than projected, and once in place, are virtually impossible to reduce or eliminate.

At the last count, about half the bill is being footed from private sources (not tax payer funds, primarily health insurance companies).  I really don't see how an extra fifty billion a year is the major difference between a workable budget and one that is untenable.  Not when expenditure is some three thousand eight hundred billion a year.  You might be right about Obama's OVERALL budget being too deficit ridden (you must be mad at Bush now for increasing the deficit so much, right?).  But the health care bill is a relatively small chunk of that increase - not enough to make a difference either way, in my estimation.

You're certainly right that things could go very wrong with it though.  We'll see.  The bill passing certainly makes the 2010 elections pretty interesting, that I also have to agree on.  A lot of people don't like this bill, from both sides.  Quite a few liberals seem to think it didn't go nearly far enough, as one interesting example.  On the other hand, I suspect the elderly and a lot of young voters will like the immediate effects.  They can swing elections when they come out - particularly the elderly in a mid-term. 

Time will tell how it all plays out.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Allhallowsday on March 22, 2010, 09:06:30 PM
I'm not saying there is NOTHING good about it.  I'm saying that we simply can't afford it. Our country has a national debt of $14 trillion, an annual deficit of over a trillion now, and this bill, by the President's own scoring, will cost another trillion . . . . and I'll almost guarantee those numbers are off.  Every single entitlement ever passed has cost more than projected, and once in place, are virtually impossible to reduce or eliminate.

At the last count, about half the bill is being footed from private sources (not tax payer funds, primarily health insurance companies).  I really don't see how an extra fifty billion a year is the major difference between a workable budget and one that is untenable.  Not when expenditure is some three thousand eight hundred billion a year.  You might be right about Obama's OVERALL budget being too deficit ridden (you must be mad at Bush now for increasing the deficit so much, right?).  But the health care bill is a relatively small chunk of that increase - not enough to make a difference either way, in my estimation.

You're certainly right that things could go very wrong with it though.  We'll see.  The bill passing certainly makes the 2010 elections pretty interesting, that I also have to agree on.  A lot of people don't like this bill, from both sides.  Quite a few liberals seem to think it didn't go nearly far enough, as one interesting example.  On the other hand, I suspect the elderly and a lot of young voters will like the immediate effects.  They can swing elections when they come out - particularly the elderly in a mid-term. 

Time will tell how it all plays out.
Well considered words, Jim HIndiana, as a historian, you should well note responses to Social Security in 1935 and Medicare (1965); I think it's safe to say these entitlements are sacred cow now, brown cow.   The thing that I think is most important about this bill is that it isn't about making somebody rich.  :smile:


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: indianasmith on March 22, 2010, 10:49:25 PM
Somebody will be getting rich . . . you betcha, as Sarah Palin would say!

But you just made my point: Once these things are in place, they are pretty much irrevocable, regardless of how much they cost (SS) or how rife with corruption and fraud they are (Medicare). 

There were things that could have been done that would have brought costs down without this bloated monster of a bill getting passed . . . . and they were rejected out of hand.  I really, really dislike this administration.

And yes, the overspending by the Republicans in Congress bothered me.  Not the war - I still consider that removing Saddam and stabilizing Iraq (not to mention luring tens of thousands of Al Qaeda and Hizbollah foot soldiers into a kill zone where we could take them out) was militarily necessary and strategically sound.  But overall, the Republicans spent like a drunk sailor in Tijuana.  But this Congress makes them look like pikers.  I HOPE my party has learned its lesson from four years in the wilderness and will be able to govern like real conservatives if and when they recapture Congress.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: 3mnkids on March 23, 2010, 07:34:36 AM
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but... Socialism isnt new. We have been a socialized country for decades. Medicaid, Medicare, SS, Unemployment..etc.  sure you could make the argument with SS & unemployment that people pay in but they usually pay in less than what they get back and some(many) pay in and never collect.. soooo

They are paying for those that get benefits. SOCIALISM! The fact is our tax dollars pay for all kinds of things we don't want, and don't use. Thats life. I dont like paying for war, abstinence only education, and many, many other things. But alas, it isnt all about me.

Have kids in public school? no? You are paying for them. Ever used the fire department? you are paying for it. Use the public library, public hospital, drive on roads? You are paying for it.

Deficits.. huh, funny thing deficits.. A lot of republicans are for them when they include death.. war. Or when its tax cuts for the rich..Bush tax cuts anyone? Those two things added what? 2 trillion to the deficit.. and counting.

Against them when they have the potential to save lives... heath care reform.

The fact is the heath care system in this country is broken. Do I like this bill? Not particularly, but its a start.



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jordan on March 23, 2010, 12:19:41 PM
I'm actually quite worried about this bill. Everyone that is opposed to it is up in arms about it being unconstitutional because it is being forced upon citizens, who will be financially penalized if they don't sign up for government mandated health care. That definitely doesn't jive well with me. And the bill itself is too damned wordy for typical Americans to even attempt to read through.

A condensed (i.e. dumbed down) version should be made available that outlines EVERY single change. Then after the citizens of our great country are fully "in the know," WE THE PEOPLE should vote on it ourselves, not the idiotic and greedy politicians.

Hahahaha.... yes. Yes I do live in a frou frou fantasy world. LOL!



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Skull on March 23, 2010, 12:49:11 PM
So how are we going to get the money for this?

This is the first time I'm NOT proud of American GOVERNMENT.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: InformationGeek on March 23, 2010, 01:18:48 PM
There is a mixed results about this from what I've been reading from all of you, but I'm glad no one around here is getting way too angry about it, unlike the people who did this stuff:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/pols.dems.vandalized/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/pols.dems.vandalized/index.html)

I don't mind when people rant, say their opinions, and argue why it is a bad thing, but this is a bit too obessive.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jim H on March 23, 2010, 02:07:55 PM
There is a mixed results about this from what I've been reading from all of you, but I'm glad no one around here is getting way too angry about it, unlike the people who did this stuff:

[url]http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/pols.dems.vandalized/index.html[/url] ([url]http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/22/pols.dems.vandalized/index.html[/url])

I don't mind when people rant, say their opinions, and argue why it is a bad thing, but this is a bit too obessive.


I wonder if the way the republican supporters and tea party people (not always the same thing, of course) have been acting will make a choice few of them stop insisting liberals/democrats are the only ones who partake in name calling, mud slinging and other unacceptable behaviors.  Remember the depictions of Bush by the MoveOn people?  Obnoxious attacks, rudeness, and cruelty aren't reserved by any one side.

Quote
There were things that could have been done that would have brought costs down without this bloated monster of a bill getting passed . . . . and they were rejected out of hand.


Well, the one thing it DOES do that was also bandied about by Republicans is opening up the system more.  It is allowing more competition between the private insurer's across state lines.  I think that is one change everyone can agree is good.  Oh yeah, and this change really is probably an overall win for the private insurers.  Their stocks have gone through the roof.  Probably the knowledge that they'll soon be gaining 30 million more customers is enough to do that. 

On another note, Indiana, you're my favorite kind of conservative.  Classical outlook on spending, consistent, respectable, and not one who toes the party line when the party violates its own principles.  :cheers:

Here's a relevant scene from a movie well known for its brilliant critique of politics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VepS-IyKOLE


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Skull on March 23, 2010, 03:17:23 PM
There is a mixed results about this from what I've been reading from all of you, but I'm glad no one around here is getting way too angry about it...

Oh, I'm angry... I'm very angry that government is deciding to control my life, my wife and my childs... (because of the new healthcare LAW... The insurance premium's are going to go up within the end of the year ~ maybe sooner)

Has anybody seen Demolition Man (1993)?

On the other hand I'm very sorry for the people that are actually believe that government can do everything without any rashioning... And I feel sorry for those dead Americans that are not covered by Free Healthcare... actaully by the time you are done reading my reply... 6 Americans has died without Free Healthcare... [and just think free healthcare isnt going to be active for another 4 to 6 years... Oh, crap another 3 more Americans just died without free healthcare]




Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: 3mnkids on March 23, 2010, 05:23:58 PM

A Final Weekend of Whoppers?
Health care legislation could be heading toward the final showdown. We look at the biggest falsehoods of the recent debate.

March 19, 2010
   

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/03/a-final-weekend-of-whoppers/


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: JaseSF on March 24, 2010, 06:28:22 PM
Honestly I'm not sure how this will all work in the U.S. - I hope it will benefit those who before couldn't afford to seek necessary medical attention. In Canada, we have Medicare. It's not perfect our system but I like that I can go to the hospital for a check-up and there will be no bill, in most cases there will be no bill for surgery , you need no medical insurance in most cases although you can still purchase some for its benefits. Sure we all contribute taxes to Medicare but at least everyone can take advantage of going to the doctor for a visit when necessary. There's still problems with doctor shortages and other things such as it's harder to sue for malpractice. It does mean longer wait times but it isn't just healthcare for the rich at least or healthcare to benefit greedy insurance companies.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Skull on March 25, 2010, 07:02:08 AM
Honestly I'm not sure how this will all work in the U.S. - I hope it will benefit those who before couldn't afford to seek necessary medical attention.


Actually its a joke on the poor... the free Healthcare isnt going to be in effect until 4 to 6 years later (that means hundreds of Americans are still going to DIE)

What become effective from the LAW is: government forcing its citizens to buy health insurance, new insurance regulations (which forces insurance to raise their premium) and more taxes... except something about pre-existing conditions for the children...

Quote
[url]http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jYnajhWrPEXihcCrpRNfUKN7rN-AD9EKTKIG0[/url]

WASHINGTON Hours after President Barack Obama signed historic health care legislation, a potential problem emerged. Administration officials are now scrambling to fix a gap in highly touted benefits for children.

Obama made better coverage for children a centerpiece of his health care remake, but it turns out the letter of the law provided a less-than-complete guarantee that kids with health problems would not be shut out of coverage.

Under the new law, insurance companies still would be able to refuse new coverage to children because of a pre-existing medical problem, said Karen Lightfoot, spokeswoman for the House Energy and Commerce Committee, one of the main congressional panels that wrote the bill Obama signed into law Tuesday.


Hmmmm... Obama did said it was about the children, those poor children and the pre-existing conditions that the nasty insurance companies dont want to cover, he told the American People that they will be covered the moment after he signed the bill... funny that bill is few thousand pages wide and they seemed to left that part out.

I guess the real joke is on the children since they are the ones that will be paying for this crap.

Quote
In Canada, we have Medicare. It's not perfect our system


Outch! If you dont think your system is perfect then why should we accept it?


Please note that 10 more Americans has died without Free Healthcare ~ maybe I should stop posting so I can save some Americans (Oh snap 2 more just died)

 :bluesad:


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: JaseSF on March 25, 2010, 01:09:48 PM
I never said our system was right for the U.S.. I was just trying to say there are goods and bads to the system we have. If they were going to take it away here and we all had to start paying ridiculous amounts of cash to visit a doctor or to get minor surgery, I'd fight that tooth and nail - sure many others would too. I wouldn't be able to afford it for one thing. Neither would a good many others I'd imagine. This system we have is flawed but at times, it does work. At times, a poor person will receive care and treatment that may well save or prolong their lives, something they probably wouldn't have if they had to pay for it out of their own pockets. The United States government though needs to find the system that will work best for them given there's far more population involved in the U.S. and more governing bodies to deal with I'm assuming given the U.S. has fifty states. If it's of no benefit to those who really need it, obviously this needs some amending..well IMO anyways.



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jim H on March 25, 2010, 02:25:22 PM
Quote
Outch! If you dont think your system is perfect then why should we accept it?

...is that a serious question?  If so, you should realize that no system is perfect.  The question is if it is better than what we have.  I believe it is, on the whole, others disagree.  I gather most Canadians actually like the system, but complain about it endlessly. 

Quote
government forcing its citizens to buy health insurance, new insurance regulations (which forces insurance to raise their premium) and more taxes... except something about pre-existing conditions for the children...

There's also massive subsidies for a very big chunk of the population on insurance premiums (on another note, the poorest people are actually not forced to buy health insurance), a removal of lifetime caps, caps on out of pocket costs in a year, caps on the premiums themselves, and so on.  The non-partisan committee has estimated that of those who already have insurance, a small percentage will have their premiums go down, a large percentage will have it go up by around 10-15% while also getting large improvements in coverage, and the rest will have no noticeable changes - and a lot of those will gain subsidies along with these changes. 

We'll see if they're correct, of course, once the system is actually up and running.

Quote
he told the American People that they will be covered the moment after he signed the bill

When?


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Skull on March 25, 2010, 02:28:28 PM
I never said our system was right for the U.S.. I was just trying to say there are goods and bads to the system we have.

I mean no offense to you or Canada...

I wasnt trying to take you out of context, either... I know the Canadian system isnt perfect (as well as you know ~ which is the point of arugment) and I just wanted to say if the Canadian system isnt perfect then why should we try it? [No need to answer]

Since the intent of the Healthcare Bill is supose to fix the problem by remodeling it to the similar Canadian/Europen system then it would be assumed that its going to be perfect... Otherwise why fix it, right? [no need to answer]

Think of it... Canadian system isnt perfect... Big deal... Right?

Ok now lets look at it differently... take plumbing for an example.

You have old leaky pipes and you hire a plumber to replace all the old pipes and then installs new pipes but the pipes is still leaking. Has the plumber fixed the leak?

Ok, sounds insane... [But thats the New Healthcare Law... So how could I assume this? Simple the Canadian System isnt perfect]


I live in Cook County Chicago... We have Stroger Hospital with is designed to help the poor. Oh my god, America actually has places that helps the poor? Who would of thought after listen to Obama and the other Dictators (Rep and Sen) for a year you would of thought we dont have any such programs. (The outrage... 6 more Americans has just died without Free Healthcare and all they had to do is look for existing government programs... Stop the insanty)

But we do have such programs and Stroger Hospital has bankrupt Cook County, its at least 4 billion dollars in the hole and that an existing program.

Ok... lets go back at the plumbing example again, this time with the American version of the Healthcare Law.

You have old leaky pipes and you hire a plumber to replace all the old pipes. He removes all the pipes and leaves... In 4 to 6 years he'll come back and then install the new pipes and tells you its for free.

More insanity? [This is the New Healthcare Law... since Free Healthcare isnt going to be active until 4 to 6 years later so we are going to start paying for it now and be told its going to be free.]

(Saddly 4 more Americans has just died without Free Healthcare)


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: 3mnkids on March 25, 2010, 02:42:29 PM
Skull, whenever you make light of people dying it negates whatever argument you had. It is a FACT that people die, every year, because they one~don't have insurance, two~ had insurance and were dropped when they got sick, or three~they have a child with a pre-existing condition and no insurance company will cover them.



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Skull on March 25, 2010, 03:01:08 PM
Skull, whenever you make light of people dying it negates whatever argument you had. It is a FACT that people die, every year, because they one~don't have insurance, two~ had insurance and were dropped when they got sick, or three~they have a child with a pre-existing condition and no insurance company will cover them.



Light? I'm very serious... The rep's and the sen's had to pushed the Healthcare bill for those poor American that dont have any Free Healthcare. This is why Obama was pushing it so they can get their Free Healthcare, its for the poor and for the children. (crap another 4 more Americans has just died!) It's not my fault that they are not going to be covered for another 4 to 6 years.... (another American dies) HOW MANY MORE AMERICANS ARE GOING TO DIE WITHOUT FREE HEALTHCARE.

Really... its a sad sick joke.



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: 3mnkids on March 25, 2010, 03:13:39 PM
Skull, whenever you make light of people dying it negates whatever argument you had. It is a FACT that people die, every year, because they one~don't have insurance, two~ had insurance and were dropped when they got sick, or three~they have a child with a pre-existing condition and no insurance company will cover them.




Light? I'm very serious... The rep's and the sen's had to pushed the Healthcare bill for those poor American that dont have any Free Healthcare. This is why Obama was pushing it so they can get their Free Healthcare, its for the poor and for the children. (crap another 4 more Americans has just died!) It's not my fault that they are not going to be covered for another 4 to 6 years.... (another American dies) HOW MANY MORE AMERICANS ARE GOING TO DIE WITHOUT FREE HEALTHCARE.

Really... its a sad sick joke.




You just.don't.get it. You don't like the heath care bill, I get it. There are others way to make it known besides making jokes about people dying. oh, and here is a list of things that will happen immediately with heath care..

http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/IMMEDIATE_PROVISIONS.pdf



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Skull on March 25, 2010, 03:28:50 PM
Skull, whenever you make light of people dying it negates whatever argument you had. It is a FACT that people die, every year, because they one~don't have insurance, two~ had insurance and were dropped when they got sick, or three~they have a child with a pre-existing condition and no insurance company will cover them.




Light? I'm very serious... The rep's and the sen's had to pushed the Healthcare bill for those poor American that dont have any Free Healthcare. This is why Obama was pushing it so they can get their Free Healthcare, its for the poor and for the children. (crap another 4 more Americans has just died!) It's not my fault that they are not going to be covered for another 4 to 6 years.... (another American dies) HOW MANY MORE AMERICANS ARE GOING TO DIE WITHOUT FREE HEALTHCARE.

Really... its a sad sick joke.




You just.don't.get it. You don't like the heath care bill, I get it. There are others way to make it known besides making jokes about people dying. oh, and here is a list of things that will happen immediately with heath care..

[url]http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/IMMEDIATE_PROVISIONS.pdf[/url]





lol... Classic Propaganda from Nancy Pelosi... (Thanks I'm saving the pdf)


The bottom line... 4 to 6 years the poor Americans will get their Free Healthcare. Thats 4 to 6 years of Americans will Die without Free Healthcare... Whats is so hard for me to get? Did you listen to the President? Why was the push so necessary? Why is it so important for the Sen's and Rep's to vote on a bill that wasnt written... Why is it so important for the President to sign the bill in less then 2 days when he promises that he'll do it in 5 days... Why make the congress work on the weekends? Why?

So the poor Americans can be covered by Free Healthcare... yet, that's another 4 to 6 years away. Saddly those poor Americans are still dieing without their Free Healthcare. Saddly another 3 Americans has just died.

Damit... Give them the Free Healthcare, now!



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: indianasmith on March 25, 2010, 05:50:42 PM
IT WON'T BE FREE, PEOPLE!!!!! 

It costs BILLIONS of dollars every year to research and develop new medicines.  It takes seven years of school and ovver 100,000 dollars to become a doctor.  WHY ON EARTH would people give away what it took them years to develop and achieve?

SOMEONE ALWAYS PAYS.

We will pay with our own money, or the government will take our money and pay for it, but nothing is ever FREE.

So quit saying it is! :hatred: :hatred: :hatred: :hatred:


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jordan on March 25, 2010, 11:19:19 PM
Yikes, it's getting heated around here! And you're right about things not being free indianasmith. The massive amount of money it will cost to implement the new bill is going to create a staggering deficit that will take this country decades to climb out of. Also, there's already a shortage of doctors across the nation; once everyone else who doesn't have healthcare gets it, our medical professionals are going to be pushed to their limits.

I've polled the kids I work with and those that actually are going to school (many aren't because they are afraid that they'll put themselves deep in debt, graduate college, then never get the career they went to school for and have to slave away at a s**tty job for the rest of their lives... pretty bleak outlook to have in the 'land of opportunity,' eh?) are focusing on computers, criminal justice, and teaching. Out of a dozen, maybe two or three said they want to go into a medical field and out of those, NONE are planning on being a full-on M.D.

Perhaps the government should fork out some dough and start putting interested / qualified individuals through medical school in order to avoid a "doctor drought" in the future.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: indianasmith on March 25, 2010, 11:44:24 PM
Profit is the best motivator in the world.  You want more doctors, put strict limits on medical liability and don't force them to take less than their services are worth.


I did get a bit heated, but it seems like people never can realize a basic truth: the government can't give you a THING without first taking it from someone else.  For all the whining and moaning about the Bush tax cuts, people forget that it its lowest, the IRS was still getting a 33% cut of the wealthiest Americans' income.  ONE THIRD.  and if they lived in a state with a state income tax, add another 10% or more on top of that.  Throw in sales taxes, property taxes, etc, and the net result is that those who make one million a year or more wind up giving HALF of it, at least, to the government every year.


That's not progressive.  That's flat out robbery.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jim H on March 26, 2010, 02:58:11 AM
Quote
The massive amount of money it will cost to implement the new bill is going to create a staggering deficit that will take this country decades to climb out of

Without getting into particulars, how is an extra $60 billion per year a staggering amount to deal with over the huge deficits we've already had in the past 10 years?  This is the one argument I really can't grasp at all. 


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jordan on March 26, 2010, 09:34:28 PM
Sorry, wasn't paying attention to the "per year" total it was going to cost us. I was more concerned with the final cost, which totals in the trillions if I'm not mistaken.

You don't think $60 billion a year being added to our already hefty deficit is a bad thing?


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Fausto on March 27, 2010, 12:35:14 AM
(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c375/fausto963/23519_10150138733970285_724815284_1.jpg)


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jim H on March 27, 2010, 01:06:37 AM
Sorry, wasn't paying attention to the "per year" total it was going to cost us. I was more concerned with the final cost, which totals in the trillions if I'm not mistaken.

You don't think $60 billion a year being added to our already hefty deficit is a bad thing?

Total cost over ten years is SUPPOSED to be around $500 billion to tax payers (due to what the health care industry is being forced to cover).  I state $60 billion a year as the cost to tax payers to give a bit of room for increased costs.  I think in theory it's only supposed to be $50 billion.  As I've said before, for reference, NASA costs about $18 billion a year.  In other words, NASA over the past thirty years has, in adjusted dollars, cost more than the health care reform.  It's certainly possible this will cost more than estimated, but we'll see on that.  And for another point of comparison, the Iraq/Aghani wars have been costing us more than $100 billion a year for the past 5 years. 

And my point wasn't that more deficit isn't bad (it is, but if it provides the benefits I'm hoping it will, it'll be worth it), it's just I totally don't see how an increase of less than 2% (compared to the 2009 budget) to the budget is such a gigantically crushing blow to our country.  As part of a generalized higher cost I can see the concern (the projected deficit Obama is going for in the fiscal 2010 year is enormous, the biggest percentage deficit since World War II), it's just everyone being so focused specifically on such a small chunk of it I don't get. 


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: wickednick on March 27, 2010, 06:18:27 AM
Now iff the health care industry is being forced to pay for some of this bills cost won't they just raise there rates and make things in general more costly to cover what they have to pay out to the government?
Also while the wars have cost a lot of money they are not a going to be a permanent fixture of the U.S. economy, the healthcare bill will. So whats going to still cost more money in the long run then? Health care.
I don't like this. I really despise the way the Democrats said F-U to the Constitution, made back room deals and perverted the Bill Making process for their own agendas. This is all proof that are government is falling apart and were heading for civil anarchy.


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: indianasmith on March 27, 2010, 08:03:58 AM
Three things are true of entitlement programs . . . ALL entitlement programs.

1.  Once in place they are almost impossible to get rid of.
2. The ALWAYS cost more than projected.
3.  Once in place, there is a constant demand to increase them.  Any attempt to cut an entrenched entitlement, or even to reform it in a meaningful way, is political suicide.




Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jordan on March 27, 2010, 03:00:29 PM
Jim, I don't have the cost figures right in front of me and truthfully, a lot of all this healthcare junk is confusing to myself and the bulk of the population. (I'm sure I could get my hands on a copy, but I don't have the time to read through 1,000+ pages of bullsh*t.)

Maybe it doesn't seem like much at all in the long run, but again, this is a projected cost and it could end up costing the taxpayers much more. I figure once the whole healthcare overhaul is fleshed out, the gov will realize they need more cash and up the taxes, or take away from other programs.

Regardless of cost, this thing should have been brought to the American people before it was so quickly written into law. If anything, the current administration should have polled the public; really tested the waters before pulling out the stops and ushering in this bill.

I think Obama has really shot himself in the foot with this healthcare reform, and won't be around for a second term. And since he's going for broke, why not bring back Prohibition too?!


Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Jim H on March 27, 2010, 08:02:23 PM
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I really despise the way the Democrats said F-U to the Constitution, made back room deals and perverted the Bill Making process for their own agendas.

I do think it's worth mentioning that everything done was par for the course.  They didn't really do anything unusual in terms of Washington politics.  I also personally think the constitutional argument is weak, what with the way states rights have been judged to be in the supreme court. 

Quote
2. The ALWAYS cost more than projected.

How about Medicare part D?

Quote
If anything, the current administration should have polled the public

I don't think that would do any good with any reforms.  If there's anything I've learned from opinion polls, it's that opinion polls don't help make good policy. 



Title: Re: US healthcare bill passes
Post by: Nukie 2 on March 27, 2010, 09:03:56 PM
Why this bill sucks...
-When government puts a cap on something, it's called a price-ceiling, and these things tend to create shortages.
- It's subsidized yet you are forced to buy it, subsidized with your money. So you're paying for it twice.
- There's no incentive for poor people to not use the emergency room option, pay a fine of about $300 a year or pay about $200 monthly, your choice
- This isn't, and doesn't resemble Nationalized Healthcare that liberal college professors talked about, nor is it going to!
- There's the incentive for medical complex to be wasteful in spending, as it's tax payer money that they're subsidized with.

In short healthcare is even worse, not what anyone even wants, be it privatized or nationalized.