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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm)

 :bluesad:

I don't understand the world.

israels way they operate is they shoot and you get out of the way. If you aren't hip to that or you can't move in time it's your fault for provoking them (see rachel corrie, Qana massacre (s), USS Liberty). It's not ethical but i'ts how they've chosen to defend their country. I just wish my tax dollars weren't paying for it.

They were in international waters!!!
It just seems so not cool.


Mark Regev told the BBC.

He's obviousdly gonna say that. He's a Israeli government spokesman not exactly a neutral party.

"16 dead, 6 Turks" Turkey is  NATO member. this complicates things.


noticed this:


The New York Times "The criticism [of Israel over the attack] offered a propaganda coup to Israel’s foes, particularly the Hamas group that holds sway in Gaza."

classy. the writer, isabel kirschner, is an israeli btw

True that he's not a neutral party, but that by itself does not mean that what he is saying is not true.

In the absence of evidence one way or another (and news reporters' opinions are no more evidence than his statements), perhaps we should not fret and speculate about it.  Just a thought.

I'm all for getting the facts but it's hard to believe this boat of aid workers would launch a military attack on the IDF with the expectation of, what, defeating the entire army?

I have a bigger question . . . considering that the Palestinians have launched almost daily rocket attacks at Israel for several YEARS now, why the heck is ANYONE giving them any aid at all?  I honestly get sick and tired of the international browbeating of the Israelis.  They give up land and give up land and give up land so that the Palestinians will make peace, and what happens?  The Palestinians lob more rockets at them!  And then deliberately plant their rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals, so that when the Israelis strike back, children die, and the international community hammers Israel some more.

Israel is a representative democracy that wants nothing more than for its people to live on their land in peace.  Jewish civilization and culture originated there, and has been there for over 3400 years.  Israel is surrounded by dictators and theocrats whose goal is nothing less than the death of every living Jew.  So can we blame them for being a bit paranoid when yet MORE foreign aid is sent to their enemies?

Sorry, Lester, but when a people are provoked and attacked  on a daily basis for years, they may jump the gun a bit on occasion.  I don't have enough facts to condemn or condone this particular incident.   But I do remember who danced in the streets on 9/11 . . . and who wept with us.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I wouldn't condone any horrible things that Hamas do, but that doesn't excuse Israel's actions. They also used the passports of their allies in their assasination recently. As a Brit I find that very worrying...

holy crap.  dude they were bring in like water purifiers and tents and stuff. Do you want the women and children in this conflict to die of thirst and starvation?  because they happened to be born in a place called gaza?  what if you had been born there.

 




uhh, I think you got that backwards bro

(http://isiria.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/palestine-map.jpg)

  

it's wrong no question. but more people were killed by israel today than have been killed by those rockets in 10 years.  Those places they are launching those rockets used to be belong to palestinians too. I mean look at that map. Gaza is hugely overcrowded. The way I heard it described was imagine if they took everyone from southern california and put them in  in tijuana and expected them to be happy about it.




did the people in gaza vote on being blockaded???  would you vote to blockade yourself? what kind of democracy is that?

  

we aren't talking about theorcrats and dictators,. we are talking about thousands of ordinary human beings who happened to be born in place called gaza.  yes Israel has a much better government system than their neighbors. far better



"The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv on Wednesday reported that Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu told an audience at Bar Ilan university that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel.

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma'ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."
"

http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-netanyahu-says-9-11-terror-attacks-good-for-israel-1.244044

I wouldn't call those tears exactly.


Again, I get that you are a big Israel guy and I have no problem with that. Their predicament doesn't excuse ever thing they do though.

from an article I just read


"Military bureaucrats enforcing Israel's blockade of Gaza allow frozen salmon filet, facial scrub and low-fat yogurt into the Hamas-ruled territory. Cilantro and instant coffee are another matter _ they are banned as luxury items."

?? facial scrubs but not cilantro?

I would love to have been at the meeting where they arrived at these distinctions
link (http://democratherald.com/news/world/article_d9159617-68d8-5c13-8e4b-65da69468553.html)

Actually,  I think Netanyahu was quite correct - 9/11 gave the American people the first taste of the threat that Israel lives with every single day.   But  a balanced perspective arrived at long after the event is NOT what I was referring to.  I was referring to the fact that, ON THE DAY 3000 Americans died, Palestinians danced in the streets and fired their ubiquitous AK-47's into the air in celebration, while Israel held a national ceremony of mourning and solidarity - Jews around the world wept for us while Arabs rejoiced, something this administration no doubt wishes for us to forget.

Of course it stinks to be a Palestinian born in Gaza.  But much of their dilemma is of their own making, or else manufactured by the Arab states that surround Israel.  They could have absorbed the Palestinian refugees a hundred times over since 1948.  They have refused to do, so that they can whip up the masses and incite them to hatred and violence over the "Palestinian problem".  That way the proverbial "Arab street" is always in a state of rage and hate towards Israel and America . . . . and conveniently enough, don't notice that they are ruled over by rich, corrupt despots while they sleep on sand and rocks and have to burn camel dung in their campfires.

You would also do well to remember that the British offered to split the Palestinian territory between the Jews and the native Arab inhabitants back in 1948 - and the Arabs chose war over diplomacy.  As a result, they lost all of the territory when they could have held half of it.  The huge losses of land since then have been as a result of wars that Arabs started against Israel.  They started wars, they lost wars, they lost territory.  That's what happens when you try to whip someone who is much, much badder and more sophisticated than you are.

Again, I don't have enough information to condone or condemn this latest incident.  But I get sick and tired of seeing Israel get pounded in the international arena while the poor, pitiful Palestinians thrive on a cult of perpetual victimhood.  The simple fact is, there never was a Muslim state of Palestine.  There never was a unique Palestinian culture.  There are no great works of Palestinian literature or folklore prior to 1948.  The Palestinian nationalist movement was manufactured out of the whole cloth AFTER the creation of Israel.  Israel, again and again, has offered  territorial settlements to the Palestinians in exchange for them renouncing terrorism and acknowledging Israel's right to exist.  They have stubbornly refused to do so, or else have done so with arcane reservations and conditions that make the statement meaningless.

I will say this -   if any group of indigenous Americans decided to launch a campaign of terror and intimidation, with rocket attacks, bus bombings, and all the other terroristic techniques that the Palestinians use against Israel, all targeting our American government and our American civilians - that group would have long since ceased to exist by now.  All things considered, Israel's response to the endless provocations and terrorism of the Palestinians has been balanced, measured, and RICHLY DESERVED!

yeah I don't know that giving 9/11 positive attributes is something I'm really into. I don't think it was a good thing in any way



I think jews like netanyahu were rejoicing actually, as he expressed in his speech. I don't think "arabs" and "jews" think along uniform lines though.  my guess is most of the arabs and jews who died in the building for example were uniformly negative. Iran had a candlight vigil thing. and celebrating didn't actually kill anybody I don't think. it was tacky, I'll give yuo that



you have this habit I find od for a conservative of conflating the people with their leaders. are we the united atates of obama? I certainl don't see it that way.

and you are putting the cart before the horse. arab leaders rail against the west to get on their peoples good side because they know the people hate the US and israel. it goes both ways really.



it was majortity arab for 18 centuries. I'd say that's about enough of a precedent

the founding of jerusalem (http://www.aldeilis.net/english/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108:the-founding-of-jerusalem&catid=134:the-question-of-jerusalem&Itemid=355)


My mom worked in a jewish rest home and the older residents always called it palestine.I don't doubt there wasn't much culturally in terms of like museum pieces and so forth.




the fact is if it wasn't for politics and the settler crazies they could easily just go back to the 1967 borders and THEN unload on anyone who messed with them. They aren't going to do that though. I can't believe this is still going on in 2010 it's nuts

Finding positives in negative or bad things is a mark of true leadership in the real (ie, not academic) world.  We try to teach our children this any time they or we as a family face a disappointment (even small ones).

When something bad happens, do you let it defeat you?  (Rhetorical, not aimed at any individual in this discussion).  You have a choice to make.  You either turn it into something positive or cower in the corner, beaten.

What Netanyahu is doing is providing leadership for the people of his nation.  He is not trying to please lester, ulthar, indianasmith or anyone HERE (in principle).  If he "uses" 9/11 in this fashion to consolidate the American-Israeli connection in the minds of Israelis I sure cannot fault him for that.

In fact, the Palestinians do this sort of thing all the time...use death and mayhem to foster 'nationalism' behind their cause.  I don't see how you can condemn the Netanyahu for doing exactly what Arafat did for decades.  It's a common game, I think, among leaders during war time.

NO actually I don't like leaders of foreign countries saying 9/11 was a good thing and I can fault him for that and I do.

it was a national tragedy and if anyone feels it benefits them they are disturbed.

I've expressed my opinion and won't harp on it further . . . Lester, you're not a bad guy, but there are a lot of issues I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on.  Let me take exception with one thing you said:

9/11 was not a "national tragedy."  Calling it that shortchanges the meaning of the day.  It was a deliberate, calculated act of war, by Islamic extremists, against the United States.  Was it tragic?  Of course.  But it sure as heck wasn't some kind of accident or act of nature.  It was done to us deliberately by people whose goal is nothing less than the complete overthrow of Western Civilization, and the implementation of worldwide Sharia law.

He said that Israel was benefiting from the attack...not that it was a good thing.

Was it "disturbed" to recognize a benefit to a nation from something that has happened?  He made a simple statement of fact.  Just like it is a fact that the US Civil War benefited the Northern states' economies at the expense of the those in the south, just like the US benefited in the 1950's from the success in WWII.

Pearl Harbor was a national tragedy and the one most often compared to the 9/11 attack, yet due to our involvement in the war, much industry was ramped up, millions of jobs were created and the depression was completely ended, etc.  Should we ignore the fact that out of the tragedy of the all the lives lost in WWII that the country benefited?  Is saying the US benefited from WWII "disturbed?"

As for Netanyahu, liking him or hating him is up to the individual, but one thing is for sure.  He understands that for a national leader of a country at war, sometimes he has to make big-boy decisions.  Just as Washington (who had deserters shot in front of the troops to set an example), Lincoln, Churchill, Rooseveldt, Hitler and just about every major national leader throughout history has had to do.  I don't see any of the Caesars denying Rome any advantage they could fine no matter who paid the cost for that advantage.

None of this means he LIKES that 9/11 happened.  It only means that out of the ashes, he sees something positive for HIS country - and that is his job and responsibility. 

Well, like Indiana, I think I'm done on this topic.  We'll also have to agree to disagree that Netanyahu's statement is somehow morally objectionable in an objective sense.

I have a question: Why the raid at night [or at least early morning when the light is no good]?  That seems more of a tactical choice than reacting to an immediate threat...

In any case, I've found alot of Israel's methods to be extremely heavy handed, and this is just another sad example of that.  Sure, they're being attacked on every side in many cases and I'm all for defending yourself, but it does get to the point where I start to worry that the response is much more severe than the initial inciting incident, especially considering alot of the civilian casualties...  I guess I'd prefer them to take the high ground rather than the route they've been taking lately.

Watching some of the footage on the news tonight made me wonder whether such lethal force was necessary: thus far they have found no evidence of firearms, and in fact the crew on the flotillas were using poles and chairs as weapons, alongside slingshots and a knife or two.

Chairs, slingshots...knifes!

No wonder Israel felt the need to gun some of them down.
They could've taken down the whole country with that kinda firepower !

I'm sorry, even if they did feel like there was a genuine threat, this was done completely wrong.

I'm sure they were armed because they thought that they might end up under attack...
Which, as it turns out, they were right.

at any rate it was not good for anybody.



yes very


what's the difference? the guy is monster for saying what he did and believing it. and he's dead wrong too. if anything 9/11 showed us we aren't wanted in that part of the world and our alliance with israel is a liability not an assett to our security.


we didn't benfift from pearl harbour and there was many ways we could have ended the depression besides war. ww 2 was a tragedy. people dying and being killed is tragic. war is bad.



I don't see what advantage there would have been in offending the sensiblity of allies by celebrating one of their national tragedies.  If stalin had said pealr harbour was really awesome and FDR had said oh really well you can fight the nazis yourself I doubt people would say that was smart.  


what does it say about his country that 9/11 was good for it?  that's pretty sad

I'm a little tired of Israel playing the victim. They behave like the school bully who's parent just happens to be the principal. Everyone knows the kid is a bully but there's not much you can do about it.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134

'Next time we'll use more force'

Did it ever occur to these people that running a military blockade is a DANGEROUS thing?  And the blockade is there for a reason.  Many of these "relief" ships carry hundred of RPG's and launchers to fire them with.

3MN, I love ya, but when you are surrounded by millions of people who want you dead, you either get tough, or get dead.  Being all sweet and compassionate is just a quick route to the second option.

And Lester, throwing Israel under the bus would just make those people come after us next.  THEY ARE NOT RATIONAL.  Their favorite saying is "First comes Saturday, then comes Sunday."  In other words, kill all the Jews first, then kill all the Christians.  And they consider ALL Westerners Christians, whether we go to church or not.

So the option is, support a nation that is fighting the battle for Western Civilization FOR us, albeit at times with brutal tactics, or sell that nation out to its enemies . . . and watch those enemies come for us.

Me, I'll stand with Israel.  Period.

If it means condoning and defending questionable and brutal tactics, perhaps the battle for Western Civilization is already lost.

their?? I know alot of muslims and none of them ever say that to me or to each other.  who is they?

 
look, al queda is trying to drive us out of the middle east the way they drove the russians out of afghanistan. They didn't then try to convert russia to sharia law. they don't have the power to do that.  You think al queda, a stateless organization of criminals, rich politicians kids and dumb volunteers is going to take over non muslim countries like Italy or CHina?  How would al queda establish sharia law?  we have about a million more pressing concerns than that not even possible enough to be remote possiblity of islam being like communism was. our concerns are terrorism and access to oil. our presence in the middle east is making the former much worse.




no those aren't our options. if they make it, they make it. it's not up to us.

I have no desire to spread western civilization to the middle east at all. my ancestors came to this country for freedoml not to feed the engine of the worlds police.


yeah, forget the constitution, which does not mention israel anywhere, because you read a couple demented israeli propaganda books from some right wing book club.

This is about CHILDREN in gaza getting purified water. if you have a problem with children, be the muslim jewish or christian, having clean water I don't know what to say.  that's dangerous thinking.