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Title: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 02, 2010, 08:15:42 PM
God did not create the universe, says Hawking 

LONDON (Reuters) – God did not create the universe and the "Big Bang" was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics, the eminent British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book.

In "The Grand Design," co-authored with U.S. physicist Leonard Mlodinow, Hawking says a new series of theories made a creator of the universe redundant, according to the Times newspaper which published extracts on Thursday.

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

Hawking, 68, who won global recognition with his 1988 book "A Brief History of Time," an account of the origins of the universe, is renowned for his work on black holes, cosmology and quantum gravity.

Since 1974, the scientist has worked on marrying the two cornerstones of modern physics -- Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which concerns gravity and large-scale phenomena, and quantum theory, which covers subatomic particles... 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100902/lf_nm_life/us_britain_hawking (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100902/lf_nm_life/us_britain_hawking)


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: indianasmith on September 02, 2010, 09:27:58 PM
Was he there when it happened?  If not, then it's just speculation.

No disrespect to Professor Hawking, he is far smarter than me, but neither of us was there.  An educated guess is still a guess.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 02, 2010, 10:08:00 PM
If gravity is what caused it, what caused the gravity?

At some level, it is ALL a matter of faith. 

I find it so fascinating that so many modern scientists seem preoccupied with the notion of "science vs faith."  Science does not REQUIRE this false dichotomy.  I greatly admire Einstein, for example, and he had no such hang-up; pretty cool guy, really.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: diamondwaspvenom on September 02, 2010, 10:08:56 PM
Silly atheists with their science and physics. :lookingup:


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: indianasmith on September 02, 2010, 11:07:34 PM
"That which has a beginning has a cause."  - Aristotle


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 02, 2010, 11:12:17 PM
You don't have to be an atheist to "have" science and physics.  Einstein managed pretty well for himself.

I am a Christian and am a physical chemist; I know a LOT of scientists that balance both.  I certainly have not had the career Hawking has had, but I like to think that I was pretty good in my field in my day; yet my understanding of quantum mechanics, statistical thermodynamics and chemical reaction dynamics in no way shape or form stops me from professing my faith.

Even an atheist is taking something on faith...so I don't understand the assumption of the transcendental truth of science vs faith.  In other words, I reject the premise that I have to choose one OR the other to be true to either.

I also find it totally fascinating that so many scientists claim theology or faith is not science then try to "use science" to "prove" the absence of God.   :lookingup:

A comment about open mindedness is rattling around, also...


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: LilCerberus on September 03, 2010, 12:20:25 AM
OT:
...Meanwhile, the mildew in my toilet looks like Jesus, only wearing a "Dunce" hat... I think God's telling me that I really need to get some Lime-away...


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Joe the Destroyer on September 03, 2010, 02:10:57 AM
Um, not trying to offend anyone, but Einstein was an atheist.  His mentions of "God" were poetic ways of saying "nature" or "the cosmos". 

That having been said, I do agree that Science vs. Religion is a false dichotomy.  Also, I don't think this necessarily disproves God, since you can't really prove a negative. 


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: LilCerberus on September 03, 2010, 02:41:22 AM
IMHO, the more science reveals, the more I become convinced that there is "A" god (albeit, I usually go with generalized Kharma).

We mere mortals cross one horizon, only to find another.

As to who it is, The Eighth Concept suggests this can be any entity a member chooses as a personal Higher Power.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: dean on September 03, 2010, 03:47:03 AM

I was hearing alot about this on the radio and it seems like Hawking often gets misquoted slightly.  One of his contemporaries was trying to explain in my interview that he didn't necessarily say God doesn't exist, since the start of the universe still cannot be adequately explained by science.  The theory he mentioned was that he thinks that the idea of a God you could interact with and talk to was probably false [in his opinion] not that there wasn't 'something else' out there.

Still, the guy in the interview could have misquoted him as well.  And as Indiana said, an educated guess is still a guess, no matter what you believe.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 03, 2010, 04:25:56 AM

Um, not trying to offend anyone, but Einstein was an atheist.  His mentions of "God" were poetic ways of saying "nature" or "the cosmos". 



Hmmm.   Very interesting.  I've read his biography, and do not recall EVER reading that he was an atheist.

Can this discussion (and the specific cites therein) (http://www.adherents.com/people/pe/Albert_Einstein.html) be refuted with specific citations?

Just curious, because I have NEVER heard this, and as I dig into it a bit right now, don't see the claim with any specific verifiable quotation of him saying exactly "I am an atheist" or "I don't believe in ANYTHING I cannot see" or something similar. In fact, he said quite the opposite.

I offer:

Quote

He said this was one of the worst mistakes of his life. Of course, the results of Edwin Hubble confirmed that the universe was expanding and had a beginning at some point in the past. So, Einstein became a deist - a believer in an impersonal creator God:


"I'm NOT an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist.
We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangements of the books, but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God."

Towards the Further Shore (Victor Gollancz, London, 1968), p. 156; quoted in Jammer, p. 97



(from this page (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Einstein_an_atheist))

and

Quote

This is not the first time a religious or atheist camp has tried to pigeonhole Einstein; surely any serious critic would agree that Einstein’s religious beliefs are far more subtle than this. Clearly, Einstein took serious issues with organized religion but there is still a very strong sense of religiosity throughout his letters. In common with atheist dogma, he held a conviction for rational thought, but he also realised the silliness of tackling religious questions with a scientific ontology: namely, trying to fathom whether there IS; ISN’T; or ‘PROBABLY’ isn’t a God.

For Einstein there was no need for rational thought and religious sentiment to be in conflict.

Indeed, his famous quote “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind” seems to perfectly capture his dualistic approach to scientific inquiry.

Anyway, I’ll spare you a clumsy unravelling of more Einstein quotes but if you’re interested there’s a more serious look at this topic here ([url]http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/23008[/url]).



(from  this page (http://physicsworld.com/blog/2009/01/transit_ads.html))

Also, I might add that having ANY "view of God" is the antithesis of "atheism."  My own thesis does not depend on any one, particular description of God.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 03, 2010, 10:22:59 PM
Einstein, if I recall correctly, specifies what is closest to his personal beliefs was Spinoza's god.  In Einstein's case, he called the mysteries and wonder of the universe "god", but he clearly didn't believe in a personal god.  I'd agree deist is probably the closest term, but most deists appear to think of god in much more personal terms than Einstein.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 03, 2010, 10:35:16 PM
Einstein, if I recall correctly, specifies what is closest to his personal beliefs was Spinoza's god.  In Einstein's case, he called the mysteries and wonder of the universe "god", but he clearly didn't believe in a personal god.  I'd agree deist is probably the closest term, but most deists appear to think of god in much more personal terms than Einstein.

All of which confirms my original statement(s): Einstein did NOT believe 'his science' was at-odds with his faith.   :cheers:

He represents (to me) a good example that science != atheism res ipsa loquitur.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 03, 2010, 10:39:28 PM
I had construed from my humble reading that EINSTEIN had poked his head thru an illusion of tar paper, and, looking around, where no one had looked before, realized that there could not be an explanation... but God


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Joe the Destroyer on September 04, 2010, 12:25:55 AM
Well, okay, I stand somewhat corrected.  I mainly say atheist because most people list him as a "natural pantheist", which people seem to lump with atheists, although they may or may not be. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CicIBDD2PNs


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Mofo Rising on September 04, 2010, 02:36:55 AM
Seems like a lot of "blah blah blah" to me.

For Hawking to say, "It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going" does not say much about Hawking's ultimate view on the universe.

If you want to stay true to the scientific method, you can't come out with a definite answer to the "does he or doesn't he exist" God question.

Both atheism and belief are leaps of faith. You can't prove God exists through science, just as you can't prove he doesn't. The scientific method just does not work that way.

Scientists are concerned with the "hows." And for all the current gaps in our knowledge, I tend to agree with the idea that you don't need to invoke God to explain this endlessly spinning (or so we hope) top. The "whys" are a much trickier proposition.

Myself, I veer towards the atheistic end of the equation. But the only time it comes up is in my opposition to most organized religion's idea of a higher being. I don't believe them, and I think there's a lot of kluge involved with those belief systems. But I wouldn't be foolish enough to claim that one idea is right over the other.

It is entirely possible to follow scientific arguments and still remain true to your faith.

That being said, the science/religion dichotomy should be mostly false. It isn't, because people are still people. I do get defensive when people try to introduce their religious ideas as scientifically sound propositions, and the devil be damned!

But I have faith in people's reason. Let's argue propositions and come to an understanding.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: venomx on September 04, 2010, 06:39:23 AM
I believe in Mr. Hawking's theorys...

IMO... I believe Boss Ross may have created the universe!

(http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5702/11247r.jpg) (http://img294.imageshack.us/i/11247r.jpg/)

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Derf on September 04, 2010, 08:15:29 AM
I believe in Mr. Hawking's theorys...

IMO... I believe Boss Ross may have created the universe!

([url]http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5702/11247r.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img294.imageshack.us/i/11247r.jpg/[/url])

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.



I don't know about that. I just can't quite see Bob Ross creating a happy little piranha to strip the flesh off of swimmers or a happy little scorpion hiding in the shoe of an unwary camper. Also, several trees in my yard no longer seem to be very happy. How could Bob allow such a thing?  :twirl:


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 04, 2010, 03:32:08 PM
I had meant to comment on this in my last post, but forgot.

Quote
Even an atheist is taking something on faith

What would that be?  An atheist is defined entirely by a LACK of a belief.  I'm not sure how faith in anything enters into it, unless perhaps you mean the rather hard-line ("strong" or "positive" is sometimes the term used) atheists who declare there definitively is not a god.  In which case, I agree.

Personally, I'm a weak atheist in that I don't believe in a god.  But, I don't actually disbelieve.  I just find it an unlikely proposition, and never saw a reason to actually believe.  I'm not taking anything on faith to the best of my knowledge.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 04, 2010, 04:04:19 PM
I had meant to comment on this in my last post, but forgot.

Quote
Even an atheist is taking something on faith

What would that be?  An atheist is defined entirely by a LACK of a belief.  I'm not sure how faith in anything enters into it, unless perhaps you mean the rather hard-line ("strong" or "positive" is sometimes the term used) atheists who declare there definitively is not a god.  In which case, I agree.

Personally, I'm a weak atheist in that I don't believe in a god.  But, I don't actually disbelieve.  I just find it an unlikely proposition, and never saw a reason to actually believe.  I'm not taking anything on faith to the best of my knowledge.

EXCELLENT question; thank-you for asking it.  I'll give you my answer and I would love to see other responses to this as well.

The article of faith for an atheist comes into play when he answers the questions like "how did it all begin" (as but one example).  Suppose an atheist makes the claim that the matter, or the gravity (like Hawking is now asserting), or SOMETHING was always here and that something somehow triggered The Big Bang.  THAT is a matter of faith; he believes that, and structures the remainder of his 'belief system' around that.

Or, one could frame it within the context of the Origin of Life.  Spontaneous biogenesis is often the province of the atheist, but THAT is a matter faith.  It is not even known if it CAN occur, much less if it DID occur.   To accept it, even as merely a "comfortable explanation" is a matter of faith.

I suppose the atheist could completely ignore all philosophy and not care one whit about these larger questions of "existence," and simply deal with the pragmatics of here and now.  But I think it is human to wonder about these things in some fashion, and if I may return to Einstein for a moment, simple appreciation of beauty (in nature) is difficult to explain without SOME level of faith in SOMETHING (God, Evolutionary pressures, etc, take your pick).


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Derf on September 04, 2010, 11:11:25 PM

EXCELLENT question; thank-you for asking it.  I'll give you my answer and I would love to see other responses to this as well.


"Faith" is a rather nebulous term. What Ulthar said is true: since there were no witnesses at either the Big Bang or the origin of life moments, we "believe" that we know what happened. Either God created everything in some form or fashion, or else everything is a product of random forces. We have "faith" that there is a grain of truth in what resonates with us.

I used to ask my classes a simple question: "Is there a country called China?" They would answer with an enthusiastic "Yes!" (well, as enthusiastic as one is likely to get in an English class, anyway). I would then ask "how do you know that? Have you been there?" The answers would get slightly less certain, usually something about China appearing on maps or having things marked as being manufactured in China. I would then ask them who drew the maps, and, of course, they couldn't answer. I would then call them on placing blind faith in someone they didn't know, believing that the picture on a map was real. A few would object to this, but they usually couldn't formulate exactly why they were objecting, except that they have been taught for years that China was a real place. We exercise this type of faith all the time: faith in cartographers, faith in news reports (to a greater or lesser degree), faith in whatever or whoever it is that makes the most sense to us or seems the most believable. We have faith that the sofa we are about to sit on will hold us up. "Faith" isn't just belief; it is trust. You trust what or whom you deem trustworthy.

Therefore, yes, atheists have faith. They put trust in what others have told them, and they have faith that their view of reality is the correct one. Christians do the same, as do Muslims, Hindus, Rastafarians or whatever other group you might mention. We can't be eye witnesses of everything, so we have to trust what others say after judging the source of any information. That is faith. Just because some choose to capitalize it when it refers to trusting in a Higher Being, the definition remains the same.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Mofo Rising on September 05, 2010, 01:59:24 AM
I believe in Mr. Hawking's theorys...

IMO... I believe Boss Ross may have created the universe!

([url]http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5702/11247r.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img294.imageshack.us/i/11247r.jpg/[/url])

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.



I don't know about that. I just can't quite see Bob Ross creating a happy little piranha to strip the flesh off of swimmers or a happy little scorpion hiding in the shoe of an unwary camper. Also, several trees in my yard no longer seem to be very happy. How could Bob allow such a thing?  :twirl:


In other words, why does Bob Ross allow bad things to happen to good people? Maybe each species has its own Bob Ross. The piranha Bob Ross would be more than willing to paint a happy little helpless cow flailing about in the just-a-little-more-than-shallow portions of a happy little river.

Just to be a stickler on definitions, I would say that an atheist is defined by the positive belief that God does not exist. Hard-line atheism is something more than a simple lack of belief; that's usually categorized as agnosticism (but is more often found in simple apathy).


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Joe the Destroyer on September 05, 2010, 02:05:25 AM
Quote
Personally, I'm a weak atheist in that I don't believe in a god.  But, I don't actually disbelieve.  I just find it an unlikely proposition, and never saw a reason to actually believe.  I'm not taking anything on faith to the best of my knowledge.

That would sum me up, and...

Quote
I suppose the atheist could completely ignore all philosophy and not care one whit about these larger questions of "existence," and simply deal with the pragmaticts of here and now...

That would as well.  I don't reject any notion, but I'm not fully convinced by anything in the way of religion, mysticism, or spirituality.  I study alternate theories maybe for perspective, but at the end of the day the thing that matters the most to me is my future and providing for myself and my wife.  


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 05, 2010, 02:51:05 AM
Quote
Just to be a stickler on definitions, I would say that an atheist is defined by the positive belief that God does not exist. Hard-line atheism is something more than a simple lack of belief; that's usually categorized as agnosticism (but is more often found in simple apathy).

Agnosticism refers to knowledge.   Specifically, whether god is knowable.  An agnostic does not believe knowledge of god is knowable - that is, he or she doesn't believe anyone can truly know.  For this reason, you can be an agnostic atheist (the best definition for myself) or even an agnostic Christian.

Atheist, taken literally, means apart from god.  It is true that people often take atheist to mean a positive belief that God doesn't exist, that's probably the most commonly used definition, but in my experience atheists don't generally follow that definition.  Theism is literally of god.  I think it is best to define the two terms in contrast to each other.  Anyone who believes in any gods is a theist, anyone who doesn't is an atheist. 

Otherwise, there really aren't any appropriate umbrella terms for the two categories. 


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 05, 2010, 06:35:21 AM

I think it is best to define the two terms in contrast to each other.  Anyone who believes in any gods is a theist, anyone who doesn't is an atheist. 
 

Do you agree then that the latter BELIEVES something (that God does NOT exist), and that belief is just as much a leap of faith as the belief of theists?


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: indianasmith on September 05, 2010, 07:51:06 AM
I think Creation is so drastically complex and wonderful that it demands a Creator. Certain recurring themes in nature, like, for instance, "the Golden Ratio" - are His fingerprint.

I am a Christian because (a) I was raised as one, and (b) the historical evidences that support the central narrative of Christianity (the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ) are so strong as to be unassailable.

I find Hawking a fascinating person, and he is WAY smarter than most other humans, but in the end, any speculation about how the universe began remains speculation, no matter how educated it is.

This is a pretty fascinating thread.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 05, 2010, 03:44:48 PM

I think it is best to define the two terms in contrast to each other.  Anyone who believes in any gods is a theist, anyone who doesn't is an atheist. 
 

Do you agree then that the latter BELIEVES something (that God does NOT exist), and that belief is just as much a leap of faith as the belief of theists?

No, that was exactly my point.  Atheism is defined by a LACK of belief.  It might help to add that I was raised without religious instruction of any kind, in any direction - even when I was young enough to think maybe magic was real, I never believed in a god.  I certainly had no positive beliefs about the lack of one either - I didn't care enough.  I still don't particularly care honestly - the only god I think has a remote possibility of existence would be something like what Einstein believed in.  A god like that is unknowable, so I spend no time thinking about that.  I would certainly be prepared to make positive claims about the man made gods though.

In either case, I really don't see how NOT believing in a supernatual enty is this huge leap of faith.  To quote a rather insulting cliche, is it an equal leap of faith for you to believe there is NOT an undetectable invisible pink unicorn hovering over your head as it is for me to believe it is? 

Quote
the historical evidences that support the central narrative of Christianity (the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ) are so strong as to be unassailable.

I find this baffling in the extreme.  I've looked at this evidence, and there's certainly extant evidence (though I've never seen any actual evidence for the ressurection - only a lack thereof pointed to AS evidence), but to call it unassailable is just...  Silly.  Especially as so much of the evidence I always hear comes from the new testament itself. 

For comparison, look at the Book of Mormon, which has far superior evidence for its magical creation, including the sworn testimony of inarguably historical people - ones who have living descendants today, marked graves, photographs, the writings of, etc.  Not to mention much of the original Mormon testament is still in existence, unlike either of the first two testaments. 


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 05, 2010, 04:54:20 PM
Sorry..maybe we are getting into arguing semantics, but believing something does NOT exist is still a belief.

Quote

is it an equal leap of faith for you to believe there is NOT an undetectable invisible pink unicorn hovering over your head as it is for me to believe it is? 


Yes.   Both of us are making a leap of faith because it is "undetectable" and "invisible."  Neither can prove his position with measurement, so to draw ANY conclusion is "belief in something that cannot be seen."  I'm perhaps using the phrase "belief in" differently than the vernacular.

Here, I mean "belief in your conclusion," not in God, the pink unicorn or the FSM or whatever.  I assert that your belief in the ABSENCE of God is just as much a "positive belief" as my belief that there IS God.  There is no difference from a philosophical, human thought perspective.

A lot of atheists (not saying YOU ... I am not trying to overgeneralize) DO try to take some moral high ground and claim that their absence of belief is the manifestation of superior human intellect; that's the premise I reject out right: they ARE making a leap of faith that there is no God.

You seem to be saying that a belief can only be that something exits, and denial of existence is not a belief.  Sorry, but in the absence of testing, both are beliefs that cannot be supported scientifically.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 06, 2010, 12:11:00 AM
Quote
You seem to be saying that a belief can only be that something exits, and denial of existence is not a belief.  Sorry, but in the absence of testing, both are beliefs that cannot be supported scientifically.

I'm saying a lack of a belief isn't a belief.  It's like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. 


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Joe the Destroyer on September 06, 2010, 12:53:04 AM
I think this is the first internet discussion on religion I've ever seen that didn't turn into a total flame war.   :buggedout:


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Mofo Rising on September 06, 2010, 03:26:11 AM
Quote
You seem to be saying that a belief can only be that something exits, and denial of existence is not a belief.  Sorry, but in the absence of testing, both are beliefs that cannot be supported scientifically.

I'm saying a lack of a belief isn't a belief.  It's like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby. 

This is getting very semantically oriented. If I can (perhaps overly) simplify, I think that the argument here is that atheism is defined by agreement with the proposition "God does not exist." To agree with that proposition is a belief in itself, not a simple lack of belief.

So, Jim H, you are saying that you have no beliefs regarding the existence/nonexistence of God (again, I'm oversimplifying, not trying to put words into people's mouth). However, I think the definition of the atheist being presented here is one defined by the very definite belief that god/God does not exist. That is ulthar's argument (once again, oversimplification on my part).

So the argument is one of definition of the term atheism. Jim H, your definition is that atheism is a lack of belief. ulthar, your definition is that atheism is defined by the positive belief that god/God does not exist. No enmity here, just an argument about definition.

I'm going to reiterate my personal beliefs as an example. I am, for most intents and purposes, an atheist. I don't personally believe in the idea of a god as a central creator, and I certainly don't believe in the idea the major religions hold on this planet that there is an anthropomorphically oriented god looking over us all here on Earth. I was raised religious, so I'm familiar with the arguments. I disagree with them.

However, where I part from hard-line atheism is in the central question of existence/non-existence of god/God. I view it at as unprovable hypothesis. As such, when you get down to brass tacks, I can't claim knowledge of it one way or the other.

I will argue these points, and have on multiple occasions. Stephen Hawking may have outed himself as an atheist (and more power to him), but you still can't prove the theist/atheist hypothesis. I believe the propositions where people introduce god/God as a cause can just as easily explained without a higher power.

But, eh, the last person you should listen to is a reporter.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 06, 2010, 04:53:22 AM
You did an excellent job summarizing all that Mofo.  Thanks.  It is indeed getting quite semantic

One small bit...  I don't actually believe in god/s (in the same way a dog doesn't believe in god - once again, lack of belief isn't the same as denial), and view the concept as unlikely, but I basically have no opinion further than that.  Internally, for me it's just a non-issue.  Perhaps that's a little strange, but it is the way I think and pretty much always has been. 


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: ulthar on September 06, 2010, 06:39:27 AM

You did an excellent job summarizing all that Mofo.  Thanks.  It is indeed getting quite semantic

One small bit...  I don't actually believe in god/s (in the same way a dog doesn't believe in god - once again, lack of belief isn't the same as denial), and view the concept as unlikely, but I basically have no opinion further than that.  Internally, for me it's just a non-issue.  Perhaps that's a little strange, but it is the way I think and pretty much always has been.  


I think I would agree with your point if the dog had the capacity to make the choice.  So far as we can tell, he doesn't, whereas you do.  It is that basis of making a conscious decision (one way or another) about ANYTHING that one cannot prove via testing that I am calling a belief, or more precisely, an article of faith.  I guess I am using these terms more broadly than "belief that there is/is not God."   As a formally trained scientist, I use 'faith' to mean any conclusion NOT based on solely on testing.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  --Neil Peart

And if I might clarify one other point; many of the modern scientists (like Richard Dawkins and Peter Atkins and now it seems Hawking) do take their self-proclaimed 'atheism' further than what you are claiming the term means.  They most definitely DO have an active belief in SOMETHING...they worship at the alter of ontological naturalism and bely the belief that their own individual capacity to "understand" (via the scientific method) is the end-all power of the universe and can explain everything that exists.

Anyway, thanks again for the discussion.  This has been very interesting (to me at least).


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: indianasmith on September 07, 2010, 11:51:43 PM
I wanted to reply to something Jim H said regarding my comments on evidence for the Resurrection of Christ -

"I find this baffling in the extreme.  I've looked at this evidence, and there's certainly extant evidence (though I've never seen any actual evidence for the ressurection - only a lack thereof pointed to AS evidence), but to call it unassailable is just...  Silly.  Especially as so much of the evidence I always hear comes from the new testament itself. 

For comparison, look at the Book of Mormon, which has far superior evidence for its magical creation, including the sworn testimony of inarguably historical people - ones who have living descendants today, marked graves, photographs, the writings of, etc.  Not to mention much of the original Mormon testament is still in existence, unlike either of the first two testaments. "

This is an odd comparison.  Is there evidence that Joseph Smith WROTE the Book of Mormon?   Yes, that is definitely true.  No one, not even the most vocal critic of the LDS Church, would contend otherwise.  But as far as the claims of the Book of Mormon?  They are hogwash.  There is not a single bit of archeology that supports a single contention within the Mormon "Bible."  Remember, all those kingdoms and stories it contains supposedly happened here in North America!  I've read and studied North American archeology my whole life, and no one takes any of the Book of Mormon's narrative seriously.
  On the other hand, there is very compelling evidence that Joseph Smith was, in fact, a fraud and a swindler.  Google "The Book of Abraham."  The short version is that an antique dealer sold Smith an Egyptian scroll, which the Prophet said contained the manuscript to the lost "Book of Abraham."  He "translated" and published it, and it was a lot like much of the rest of the Book of Mormon - a fairly obvious spin off of the Old Testament.  In the 1960's a steamer trunk belonging to Joseph Smith was found, and among his personal effects was the original "Book of Abraham" scroll, along with his "translation notes."  An Egyptologist translated the scroll, and found it was a funerary chant to Osiris, the Egyptian God of the Underworld.  No mention of Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob anywhere.  Smith completely made up the "Book of Abraham."

  On the other hand, look at the New Testament's narrative.  The events take place in actual, identifiable ancient cities.  If Luke says the Procurator of Judea during Jesus' ministry was Pontius Pilate, lo and behold, there are inscriptions to back it up. John's gospel says there was a Pool of Bethesda in Jerusalem surrounded by five porticoes, which archeologists scoffed at for many years because no other contemporary record mentioned it. But in the 1960's it was found, exactly where John says it was, with the remnants of the five collonades surrounding it, and graffiti indicating that it was indeed believed to have healing powers.
  In short, the New Testament narrative is painstakingly accurate in its attention to detail and in its references to historical characters.  There is not a single historical inaccuracy to be found in its narrative.  All its books were written within a very short span from the events they chronicle - in fact, even the latest of them, John's Gospel, still falls within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses.  They all agree on the fundamentals of a very astonishing event, that Jesus of Nazareth was put to death and then seen again by many of his disciples.  Josephus confirms this, and even Tacitus mentions it.  Belief in a literal, physical resurrection was so woven into the theology of the first Christians that the most obvious, logical explanation for that belief was that the event must have actually happened.  Why else would men so afraid that they scattered like sheep when their Master was taken into custody have suddenly showed up, sixty days later, boldly proclaiming His Resurrection to the very men who had ordered Him put to death?  There is a gaping hole in the history of the early church that is the size and shape of a Resurrection.  No other narrative fills that hole adequately, and indeed, no other explanation accounts for the boldness and persistence of the church in the face of intense persecution.  These men didn't just believe Christ was risen - they KNEW it, because they had seen Him.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I thought the point worth making.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 08, 2010, 01:48:07 AM
I'm not going to attempt to argue point by point Indiana, but I mentioned the Book of Mormon story not because of the Testament itself, but because of the sworn testimony of the magical interpretation and creation of it.  You know, using Moroni's golden plates, an angelic appearance, magical glow, that sort of thing, much of which is backed up by sworn testimonials.  I do believe in the historicity of most of the New Testament people, but it's far murkier in a historical sense by any measure than Joe Smith's followers.  And I freely acknowledge that the historical elements of the Book of Mormon are ludicrous.  It's just based on evidence of its creation, the Book of Mormon has more going for it than the New Testament - based on my own standards, anyway.  I would not say the same thing based on a textual examination though.

As just one small aside, what do you think happened to all the dead people that came back to life and went into Jerusalem after Jesus' death?


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: indianasmith on September 08, 2010, 07:27:34 PM
That's a good question.  Only Matthew mentions them, but he was there in Jerusalem at the time, so there's no reason to reject it out of hand if you accept the other miraculous elements of the story.  I would theorize that they were like Lazarus, or the widow's son that Jesus resurrected in Luke's gospel, or Jairus' daughter, who is mentioned in all three Synoptic gospels . . . that they lived for a time on earth, and eventually returned to the grave and to their eternal reward.

Did anyone besides Joseph Smith ever get to handle the "Golden Tablets"?  And were they not "taken up" after he translated them?  I know that Smith's folllowers did allude to some miraculous events surrounding them, but were there any skeptical witnesses that saw these things happen?

I have always been very skeptical of Joseph Smith's claims, but I would not mind learning more about him.  I am glad you don't try to argue for the veracity of the contents of the Book of Mormon, at least.  That would be a very tough sell. Thanks for your response.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Allhallowsday on September 08, 2010, 10:34:36 PM
...I have always been very skeptical of Joseph Smith's claims, but I would not mind learning more about him. 
I am glad you don't try to argue for the veracity of the contents of the Book of Mormon, at least.  That would be a very tough sell....
Which must explain why they go door to door.  :wink:


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Jim H on September 08, 2010, 11:16:13 PM
Quote
Only Matthew mentions them, but he was there in Jerusalem at the time, so there's no reason to reject it out of hand if you accept the other miraculous elements of the story.  I would theorize that they were like Lazarus, or the widow's son that Jesus resurrected in Luke's gospel, or Jairus' daughter, who is mentioned in all three Synoptic gospels . . . that they lived for a time on earth, and eventually returned to the grave and to their eternal reward.


I just found it strange that it's only in one gospel and it's such a short passage.  The event would also be so extraordinary it's baffling to me it never gets referenced by anything elsewhere - in the bible or not.  Similar to the supposed eclipse at the crucifixion.  I've heard it suggested that both were intended as essentially a literary device.  

Not really related, but do you think the "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" story belongs in the new testament?  I don't really consider this important, I'm just curious about your opinion.  

Quote
Did anyone besides Joseph Smith ever get to handle the "Golden Tablets"?  And were they not "taken up" after he translated them?  I know that Smith's folllowers did allude to some miraculous events surrounding them, but were there any skeptical witnesses that saw these things happen?


The eight witnesses claimed to have handled them, yes.  And yeah, supposedly Moroni took them back after the translation was done.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Witnesses)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Witnesses)

The witnesses were friendly.  The best part is they all got excommunicated from the church later on.  

I should state here I hardly find any of the Mormon 'evidence' convincing in the slightest (I'm with you on basically thinking Smith was probably outright malicious, the L. Ron Hubbard of his day).  

Quote
Which must explain why they go door to door.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U58wgn-9Y3c


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: dean on September 09, 2010, 05:29:15 AM

Ah Jim, John Safran is a hilarious man, albeit one with a hell of a whiny voice!

On the topic of Mormons, Safran also made a trailer for a film called 'Xtreme Mormons' which involves xtreme cycling.  Hilarious stuff and worth a look!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj9g9-0zeyY&feature=player_embedded


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: indianasmith on September 09, 2010, 06:22:43 AM
The Bible never calls the darkness that surrounded the Crucifixion an eclipse, although later authors tried to explain it as such.  It was not a literary device, however, because a Roman historian named Thallus (? - I think that's it - going by memory here!) mentioned it and tried to call it an eclipse, and one of the Apostolic Fathers - Justin Martyr, I think - contradicted him, saying that the darkness fell at a time when there was no eclipse predicted.

It is also quite possible that the resurrected saints mentioned by Matthew were called back up to heaven with Jesus, and did not linger.  I guess we'll never know.


Title: Re: God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Post by: Mofo Rising on October 03, 2010, 02:13:59 AM
I really don't want to reopen argument, since I'm pretty sure we've all got definite beliefs on this matter that aren't likely to change.

But, since I work in a library, I think I should mention that Hawking actually has a book of repackaged mathematics papers published under his name called "God Created the Integers (http://www.amazon.com/God-Created-Integers-Mathematical-Breakthroughs/dp/0762419229)."

It doesn't really change any of the arguments here, but Hawking went ahead and put God right in the title of his book. That's something you have to go out of way your to do.