Badmovies.org Forum

I've noticed that members here run a pretty large gamut of attitudes toward drinking, from outright straight-edge teetotallers to people who simply don't drink because it doesn't agree with them to occasional/moderate drinkers to full-blown partiers, although I've never noticed anybody seeming to have a problem with it. In the U.S. in general, and I've seen it played out on this board to some degree, there are some attitudes about drinking that just seem bizarre to me.

People who don't drink seem to either be judgemental of those who drink or think it's stupid, or feel judged themselves by a society that seems to want to push them to drink in order to have a good time. I can understand this attitude, although I do drink myself, mainly because of what I will bring up in the next point.

People who drink heartily seem to feel judged for their behavior and rebel against it, becoming all the more belligerent in their behavior, as if in reaction to this. And, in turn, I've noticed drinkers do be judgemental to a certain extent about non-drinkers. And so this further exacerbates the obnoxiousness that non-drinkers don't like when being around a bunch of rowdy drinkers.

It seems a viscious cycle to me, and I've just never understood it. There just seems to be so many hang-ups in America about drinking. Perhaps it is my exposure to European attitudes, which just seem much more healthy to me in this particular regard. My wife's family is from Ireland, and there drinking is just something that's there. Sure there are some folks that get sloppy when drunk, and plenty of drinking does go on, but people just seem far more in control and far less obnoxious about it in general. Also, the judgemental attitudes back and forth between drinkers and non-drinkers seems to be removed. Contrary to stereotypes, there are plenty of teetotallers in Ireland as well as plenty of drinkers. Also, people seem to go on and off drinking there, in my experience. I've known people to go on drinking periods followed by periods where they won't touch the stuff. But in general they just don't have any wierd attitudes about. People either drink or don't drink, and they all can hang out in the same establishment and not be so annoyed with each other. I went to a pub in a small town in Northern Ireland where there was a traditional music session going on, fiddlers, flutists, pipers, etc. just playing trad tunes as they gather to do on a regular basis. Some were knocking back pints, some were nursing them, some were just sipping tea. It just wasn't an issue. And if somebody does have a drinking problem, it is generally looked at as that person's problem, not society's problem, and they aren't ostracized and judged as having a problem. If they want to work it out, they'll do it on their own.

It's just a very different attitude than what I see here. This has nothing to do with an overall comparison of European attitudes vs. American or who is better. I don't give a s**t about that. I have the ability to discriminate and isolate issues, and on this one I simply favor the European outlook on the matter and think it is just more healthy. Here we have to stigmatize drinking, and other behaviors, which is exactly why, in my opinion, we have so many damn hang-ups in this country.

Anyway, I had a discussion about this with a coworker and felt like sharing my views on the matter. Is drinking potentially problematic? Sure it is. So is smoking and eating badly. Personally, I think smoking and obesity are far bigger problems for this country than drinking. What do you think?

Let me start by saying I drank pretty heavily when I was in my late 20s and early 30s.  I wasn't an alcoholic, but when I went out with my friends (which in those days was 6 or 7 nights per week) I got drunk about 90% of the time.  I don't drink as much these days, but that's probably because I don't go out with friends 6 or 7 nights a week anymore.  Otherwise, I'd probably still drink a lot.  I don't care if other people drink or not.  That's their business.

Obesity is a big problem.  Not so much smoking anymore . . . a lot of people have quit.  There aren't NEARLY as many smokers around these days as when I was a kid.  Almost all of my adult relatives used to smoke.  Now, not a single one of them does (and most of them haven't for 25 years or more).  I was never a smoker.

Obesity and smoking mostly hurt the people who are obese or who are smokers.  Drinking, however, has much more potential to hurt others (for instance, drunk drivers or violent drunks).  I know, second hand smoke can affect other people, too.  But now that there are so many anti-smoking rules in public places second hand smoke is far less of an issue than it was when I was young and people smoked virtually everywhere including movie theaters, restaurants, and airplanes.

Overall, I say "Live and let live" unless you are infringing on someone else's right to do so.

That is true. It's interesting how public attitudes have changed regarding smoking. 50 years ago, you would see photographs of major movie stars and celebrities with a cigarette in their hands. It was a symbol of coolness. Even if a major movie star didn't smoke, people would literally light a cigarette and hand it to them before taking a picture. "Here. We don't care if you smoke or not. We just want to get a shot of you holding the cigarette." It was almost the equivalent of a makeup person doing a quick touch up before a shot. When I first entered the workforce in the 80's, it was common to smoke in the office, whereas now it would be ridiculous to even think about that.

I've quit drinking, been sober since January 1st (coincidence, not a New Year's resolution).  Drinking, or being around drunk people, isn't fun anymore.  Perhaps not coincidentally, I'm one hell of a lot happier, I've lost over 30 pounds, I've saved a ton of money, and it's nice not to wake up sick every day.  No alcohol is going past my lips ever again, not even a beer.

Personally, I think drunkenness is a HUGE problem.  Liquor has a way of making good things bad and bad things worse.  I don't know what could be done about it on the larger scale but I can forbid alcohol in my house.  Any gatherings I host are strictly dry.

Around 1991 I worked in a "smoke free" office . . . except the Office Manager and another Manager were chain smokers.  They used to smoke in their offices with their doors closed and the company let them get away with it.

I simply don't drink.  I was never an alcoholic but it just doesn't taste good to me.  If someone bought me a shot that's fine.  But I won't put out the money for it.

my attitude towards drinking is I'm doing it right now.  :cheers:

I live in a small town ~2500 people that used to have 14 bars and a few liquor stores. It used to be called "A quiet little drinking town with a fishing problem". There was crap that happened, but I really believe that the problems of drinking can be blown way out of proportion. We always see crap in the news that people do, but considering the number of people that drink peacefully without incident, I don't see it as causality. It comes down to individuals: a small percentage causing most of the problems. People talk about the drunk driving problem in the US, and it's there, but it is made to sound like every person that drinks goes out and does it. I know TONS of people at the prison that have multiple DWIs, some 5, 10, even 15 DWIs, but most of these people are problematic to society no matter what, most are in for things that don't have anything to do with alcohol. It's a small number making huge headlines, their alcohol escapades being more of a symptom than a cause.

That said, it all depends of your definition of a 'problem'. Someone wasting their life away by their 'hobby' being sitting at a bar isn't a 'problem' in my book until it starts effecting others, and the majority of the time it doesn't. The fact that they die with little to their name is none of my business, but many people call that a problem. I call it a choice, just the same as I consider anyone else indulging in a hobby I find unsatisfying THEIR choice.

Just the same as anything else, there are extremists. I had a highschool nurse that laid out a list of questions that if you answered 'yes' to more than a few of them, she said you were an alcoholic. Virtually everyone that drank at highschool age was an alcoholic in her book, and it wasn't even a remotely intelligent point of view. "do you ever hide your drinking from anyone?" "Have you ever gotten in trouble for drinking?" "have you ever gotten sick from drinking too much?" "Have you ever done anything while drunk that you later regretted?" "have you ever hid alcohol so other's wouldn't find it?" "have you ever attended an event that the main purpose of it was to drink?". Here goes: I had a 12 pack hidden in my room, I took it to a party and drank it. I ended up kissing some ugly chick. I went home and acted like everything was OK, but then I barfed on the floor, and my parents grounded me. That's all it took to be an alcoholic in her book. Of course teenagers hide their drinking from their parents. of course they eventually get caught and in trouble. Of course they hide their beer. Of course they go to partys and such where drinking is common. Of course people do and say thing they regret, that's common of PEOPLE, not just people who drink. The only kids who DON"T fall into the alcoholic category were the kids whose parents didn't care what they did, so they didn't try and hide it or get into any trouble.

"do you ever hide your drinking from anyone?" "Have you ever gotten in trouble for drinking?" "have you ever gotten sick from drinking too much?" "Have you ever done anything while drunk that you later regretted?" "have you ever hid alcohol so other's wouldn't find it?" "have you ever attended an event that the main purpose of it was to drink?".
 
Just that those questions were being asked of highschoolers is absurd. Um. Hello. Wouldn't the answer generally be an automatic "yes" if you drank at all in highschool? :lookingup:

Anyway, thank you for that post, ghouk. There is not enough karma.

I don't drink.
Ever.

Just doesn't appeal.  :thumbup:

I don't think you can honestly talk about drinking habitually and to excess as a 'victimless' situation.  Tell that to anyone who has lost a loved one to a drunk driving accident: they account for one third of the traffic fatalities every year.  That is on the order of TEN THOUSAND people per year.

What about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome - the leading known cause of intellectual disability in the Western world?  Kids who are permanently damaged because their moms drank while pregnant. Those kids did not consent to that.

And let's not get into how alcohol abuse figures in to family problems and so on...

Not a private harmless passtime in every case, gentlemen.  :bluesad:

Okay, I already know I'm going to be perceived as a heartless a***ole, I'm used to it, so here we go.

Driving while intoxicated is against the law. It's against the law because driving a vehicle on public roads is not a right. You have to be licensed to do it. I have no sympathy to anybody who goes to jail for killing somebody while drunk, and I have all the sympathy in the world for anybody who has lost somebody to that. You're appealing to emotion there, and I will honestly question your numbers. What statistics say that one third of traffic fatalities involve drunk driving? And if you provide one statistic, I have no doubt that I can find a statistic that counters it. That's why I don't use statistics to justify whether something is a victimless crime or not. Drinking didn't kill any of those people, a moron drinking and getting behind the wheel, something that he/she knows is against the law, and running over somebody because they were impaired is what killed them.

Here's the part where I'm truly a heartless a***ole. The unborn have no legal protection according to how the law defines life. Whether that's wrong or right, I'm not saying, but laws that were made long before science could see inside the womb don't recognize life until there is a birth certificate. The same argument that says that the unborn should be protected from FAS is the exact same argument that says they should be protected from abortion. I'm not taking a position in the pro-life/pro-choice debate here. That's not the point. What I am saying is that, according to the legal definition, unborn children can't be victims. Humanely? Yes, they most certainly can, but the law is limited. It can only protect so much, and this territory is far too hazy for the law to deal with.

Now, Newt, you have demonstrated yourself in my experience to be a very rational and intelligent person. Is it possible that in this case you are reacting more emotionally? I'm not saying that out of disrespect. Hey, I've got my emotional hot buttons too. But you seem to be advocating prohibition, because that's the only thing that could even remotely address the issues you have mentioned. If that's the case, I will have to differ with you. But I still respect you.

Im in the minorty here. Not proud of it. In fact you could say Im an alcholic. I drink whiskey. A LOT.
I dont drink and drive.EVER. I dont fight .My worst problem when I drink is I get real mushy-"I love you!" kinda mushy.And that gets me in trouble. And booze works like Viagra too. so that doubles the problem. I wanna f2ck everyone when Im drunk.

Oh-by the way-I love you man!  :drink:

(I really do love you guys-booze not withstanding. !)

I drink quite alot too. I can go through phases where I'll drink every day, morning and night for about a month. Then, I'll just say "hell, I'm quitting damn it!" and stop for anything upto three months. I don't touch spirits so much anymore and it is absolutely suicide for me if I mix my drinks (I go into pyscho mode), so I tend to drink a ton of lager. The main problem I have is that I don't have any friends or family where I live and I only know ppl through work, so when I go out with them - I drink. I drink because I get bored and because I fall into that vicious (and stupid) trap of trying to "numb" my pain and memories. But, I drink alone, at home so that I don't embarress myself or hurt anyone.

I don't judge anyone who drinks more heavily than me and I don't judge people who don't drink. I commend them.

The statistics say 32% of all traffic deaths involve an intoxicated driver. That said, even the experts agree that a significant percentage of those deaths would not have been prevented had the drunken drivers been sober. 'involved' does not equal 'caused'.

Also "Fetal Alcohol Syndrome - the leading known cause of intellectual disability in the Western world", that's a manipulative way of presenting the info, since the vast majority of those disabilities are caused by things unknown. 1 in every 160 children born in the developed world suffer from some form of autism spectrum, and there is little known of a cause. The key is leading KNOWN cause. . .

Also, it is unfortunate that when drinking is discussed, the discussion automatically takes the turn that seems to equate all drinking to the worst incidence. Yes, drunk driving is an enormous problem, but if you consider how little it actually happens compared to the number of people that are drinking, it's hard to lump the whole drinking population together. An even greater factor in highway deaths is excessive speed, but we don't cast blame on those that drive a couple MPH over the limit the same as we do people that drink.

That's interesting. You're in the UK, right Circus? I was commenting in my original post how, in my experience visiting Northern Ireland, it seems fairly commonplace for people to drink off and on, that is, drink for a while, perhaps even heavily, then go through periods of not drinking. I would talk to quite a few people who would talk about that, referring to those periods of drinking as "on the drink." Like "John So-and-so is on the drink lately," as if the switch was going to turn off at some point and they would be "off the drink." Just an observation. Does that ring a bell at all in your neck of the UK?

Oh, and this statement also very much mirrors what I was talking about in my original post regarding the differences in attitudes.

Yes, I looked up the U.S. census Statistical Abstract and found that same number for the year 2008, and another that put the number at about 21% for the same year, both coming from the same source. My point? You can't count on statistics.

Well, I'm trying not to stereotype here, but the Irish tend to be big drinkers although they seem to handle it extremely well. Here in England, there's a big binge drinking culture - I'd say for 18-35 years olds mostly at the weekends because I think we had new licencing laws that meant certain establishments could stay open practically 24/7. That was supposed cut down the level of drinking apparently, yet nothing has changed. To be fair, there's not much for younger people to do, especially in small towns so they tend to hang around in groups and get smashed. Add to that, the fact that the larger retail stores stock a stack of discount booze on a monthly basis and you end up with a lot of suffering livers.

 I drink alone. I dont like to drink around people. That says someting...I drink alot-but I dont drink in public.  Not sure what it says...cuz I aint shy. Id f**k in public. But I dont like to see people watch me tip a bottle. I can be drunk...but I hid the actual act of drinking. Weird. Any Freuds here?  :question:

Well, my wife is from Belfast, as are her parents. She drinks and handles it quite well. Her father is a regular drinker but tends not to get smashed. Her mother barely touches the stuff. I say "whatever" to the stereotypes. I just figured there may be a similar phenomenon around your part. I just thought it was interesting and a little bit amusing that there was a term for it, "on the drink," that they used for this seemingly common practice there of drinking off again/on again, so when you posted that it rang the bell, so to speak.

I did say "drinking habitually and to excess".  I do not see how that translates into being in favour of prohibition?

Interesting that your argument seems to imply that what is legal is right.  The two are not equivalent.  "Legal" does not = "ethical" The argument that something is legal and therefore totally acceptable always smacks of sociopathology to me: that the person citing the legality of an issue as its final defence does not possess a sense of  right and wrong. There is far more to "right" and "wrong" than what is strictly laid out in law.  No offence, but I have found going on about your "right" to do this and that to be a very "American" thing: Canadians tend to be more concerned about what is "right" and "fair".  Perhaps that explains our differing perspectives.

As for emotional reaction: watch it.  :lookingup:  You may be veering into a sexist interpretation there!  (Would you really have suggested that so readily had I not been female?) For the record: I do not have any personal experiences connected to drunk driving nor to FAS.  My Dad was a small town family doctor.  Perhaps a bit of his profound frustration on the issue influenced my attitude.  Sure, it makes me angry because it is so easily preventable.  And any argument that appears to be in favour of irresponsible actions is bound to make me angry.

So what would YOU do about FAS?  Charge the woman with child abuse once the baby is born and the irreparable damage already done?  Again: the cause is excessive - and irresponsible - drinking.  Since legally the fetus is not a person, that makes it totally OK?  If making such drinking socially unacceptable reduces the risk to children then I am all for it. 

Drinking problems cause and are in and of themselves a burden on society.  As a member of that society I have a responsibility - and a right - to advocate reduction of that burden - by means of education, prevention and promotion of personal responsibility.  In my country, I am paying for the extra medical care and various social programs that excessive drinking makes necessary.  I am supposed to just suck it up and pay my taxes without a word because it is somebody's  "right" to drink irresponsibly?

The way this discussion began made it look quite clearly polarized: either it was to be "no holds barred" drinking or prohibiton.  One extreme or the other.  Where is the place for moderation and responsibility?  THAT is what I would argue for.  I am not against alcohol consumption. I am against alcohol abuse.

Hmmm. Okay.


At no point did I imply that what is legal is what is right. I beg to differ. My point was that this is extremely hazy area for the law to handle in an objective way. It's impossible. My real im;lication was that the only way to effectively handle the two items you have brought up was prohibition. I think that's a valid point.


Actually, I would ask you to watch it. I made no sexist remarks, nor did I make ANY implication that I was basing this on you being a woman. Feel free to point out through quotation where I did.  And yes, I absolutely WOULD sugges the same thing were you not female. I turned right around and said I have emotional hot button issues as well, did I not? So, please, don't pin sexism on me as I am far from a sexist. That's a red herring if I ever saw one.



At what point did I say that this was okay? I clarified clearly that, humanely, it is certainly not. Again, my point was that the law cannot practically address these issues. The law never will. I don't have a solution for FAS, any more than I have a solution to any number of other birth defects that can be influenced by the actions taken by the pregnant mother. What would YOU do about FAS? I don't recall that either of us proposed a solution. Well, I did actually, prohibition, but I don't agree with it, so I'm not offering it as something I would do.


Is it right for taxpayers to pay for the mistakes of the individual? Certainly not. What's more, I'm not advocating that they do. This is one of the reasons why I don't agree with socialized medicine, it gives the government, and the taxpayers, the license to dictate individual behavior. And why not? If I were paying for the cancer treatment of smokers I would be upset too. So, no, I don't think it's right that you should suck it up and pay for it. And please, burden to society? Lot's of things are a burden to society, like obesity, a common problem in the U.S. But I can't very well stop people from overeating, can I? And if I do, I'm an insensitive a***ole for pointing out that they're fat. There's no way to win. Now, education, prevention, and promotion of personal responsibility? You've got something there. However, that costs money too.

My whole point from the beginning has been moderation and responsbility, Newt. That, and I was genuinely interested in differing attitudes. I don't see that things have gotten polarized.

I drank HEAPS when I was in my 20s.  It was part of the social thing my friends and I did.  Pubs and bars were places to get smashed, have fun, dance, and pick up hot guys - you know, the stuff you do when you're young and bullet proof.  When I fell pregnant at 25, I was so morning sick all the time, I couldn't choke down a piece of toast, let alone a beer.  So I stopped and I never missed it.  After that, I just never really picked it up again.

As an adult I've been roaringly drunk on occasion and massively enjoyed myself each time.  But it takes so long to get over the hangover that mostly I just don't bother.  It's expensive, makes my skin break out, makes me fat and now that I'm not going to bars picking up random men, it just doesn't occur to me to drink every day.  But I am quite susceptible to peer pressure so if I do go out with friends, I'll have a couple of drinks but not enough to make me smashed and hungover.

I grew up with a family of alcoholics surrounding me so I've seen the damage alcohol can do.  But not being an addictive personality, drinking to excess doesn't hold any appeal.  I don't have any opinion about teetotallers or those who drink to excess.  For me, it's a live and let live kind of attitude.  But if you drive drunk and kill someone you should bloody well go to jail with all of the other killers because you chose to break the law and you should be punished.

Again, this is very indicative of the differing attitudes I was talking about in my earlier post. I happen to share this attitude.

I've never been drunk, and I don't really drink, but I love me a good drunk.  Some people shouldn't drink because they make stupid decisions, like driving or operating machinery that they can't comprehend, and when they get drunk, it only gets worse.  Other people are good drunks, they get drunk and say I love you a lot, dance, and lose their boots and make for funny laughy time for all around, and then they can laugh about it the next day.

Narrator from Shin Chan...

"I'm not sure why I'm telling you this, except that it's 7 a.m., and I've been drinking!"

my attitude about drinking. this has been my anthem since i was seventeen.... (NSFW)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-KRQt8LGMI

I only drink occasionally. In my friends and family circle, there is a mix that ranges from full blown alcoholics to water swillers only. I don't judge them either way.  BUT for the ones that indulge too much and need a ride home PLEASE DON'T GET SICK IN MY CAR!  :buggedout:

I agree 100%. I DID wreck a truck-when I was drunk. I almost killed someone. Evil. Drunk driving kills. If I had killed someone-I couldnt live with myself. Id kill myself.
Any addiction-booze,drugs,whatever...is hard to stop. I am an alchoholic....I didnt spell that right!-I have been since I was 13! Lived around old Polish and Russian farmers....way of life. And I drink. I tried drugs.Pot-nah.LSD-YEAH! Coke,meth....awful. Speed kills.
But I am a drunk.

Why do I love this girl? Let me count the ways.... :cheers:

My anthem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6YyuzxOXIQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ucAEdM8CLY

how can you not take Black Flag as truth. an anthem for my generation

I was raised in a Baptist household, and drinking was something we just did not do.
In high school, and even in my Navy days, I took my faith pretty seriously.  The Bible does
not condemn drinking, but it does condemn drunkenness.  I have sampled alcohol on a half
dozen or so occasions, and frankly, it all tastes nasty.  And I simply have zero interest in ever
being high or drunk.  I love life, I enjoy my friends and family, I have hobbies that keep me
occupied in my slack time, and lots of interesting people to chat with on the internet.  I just
don't need alcohol and don't want it.

I did lose a close friend to a drunk driver when I was in my 20's, and in the Navy I saw a lot of
very smart people do incredibly stupid things when they were drunk.  I just don't understand the
appeal of it, and never have.

Someone wants to get absolutely plastered on their own time, as long as they're not driving or
harming others?  Go for it.  Someone gets behind the wheel, or drinks while pregnant and poisons
their unborn child?  That's just wrong.  Legalities aside, it's wrong and immoral.

I drink.  Not as much as I did, say, two years ago.  But I like to occasionally go out and enjoy myself or go to friends houses and have a few.  I never drink and drive, don't like people who do.  I shouldn't drink at all.  Given my family history with alcohol and drug abuse, and my own personal history with various substances, I should stay far far away.  I just can't though. 

But, people who don't drink, more power to em.  I've never once tried to get anyone to drink or insisted they do when at functions.  They don't want to, great.  They want to, fine.  Same with people who're worse off than me.  They wanna get loaded every night, fine.  But if I personally know they're drunk and are gonna drive, I make sure they don't do that. 

On a personal level, I'd rather die than consume alcohol.  Of all drugs, I hate it the most perhaps because it's everywhere and so socially accepted, just a huge moneymaker for greedy corporations who really don't care about its potential consequences. Just a case in point of where I conflict with a whole lot of society especially where I live where it's considered beyond weird to be as I am, a person who's committed to live one's entire life drug free (I'm not counting prescription medication here, although I don't believe people should abuse that either). Interesting Black Flag gets mentioned. Henry Rollins is a teetotaller himself. A lot of Black Flag songs actually poke fun of the drinking culture..anyways back to where I live. If you're not a drinker here, people tend to look at you like you've got two heads but I never gave in to what others expected of me. I follow my own rules. I make my own choices. I am not a follower. I am as individual as they come. That said, I've never told others what they could/should or could/should not do. I might have pointed out potential consequences but that's all. Like Newt, I really have the most problem with alcohol abuse especially when it leads to domestic abuse amd neglect at home and in public..I've seen many families thus affected. I had a neighbor I really liked who visited who had a drinking problem and died in his 50s. He literally drank himself to death...he was so bad he couldn't control his kidneys and nearly always p**sed himself. I know people close to me, people I car e very much for who have suffered emotional and verbal abuse and neglect because one parent put their alcohol addiction above everything else. I've known men who lose their entire families, their jobs, pretty much everything and did jail time. People forget this is another drug addiction when it becomes a problem. I don't really have a problem with responsible drinkers who know when to stop but I do feel all the potential negatives of alcohol abuse makes me think the world would be better off without it. But it ain't going to disappear so more knowledge about the abuse needs to known. It can lead to severe liver, kidney and brain damage. That's just facts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5ce-vHRFKw&NR=1

I drink heavily on occasion but not often.  I don't like being drunk because I get giddy and overly happy.  Not necessarily bad but I also start tending to loan money out and then think where the hell did that cash go.  I hate that part of it.  I don't drive and typically do it when I won't be going somewhere other then a friends house and crash there or stay at home.  I'm not much for bars.  I also like to drink nice tequila and sample cigars.  However, if you don't I'm happy for you and I understand.  I suppose it isn't the greatest choice.  However, sadly I think we all fall into something we do that we probably shouldn't be doing. 

Really?  That's weird, cause I always thought alcohol diminishes ones sexual capacity.  Like Shakespeare said, "It provokes the desire, but takes away the performance."

Course, maybe that's just certain types of alcohol.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again, personally, I'm just not into drinking.  Not really for any moral or spiritual reasons it's just the alcohol I've tried just doesn't taste good, and anything you have to "get used to" in order to enjoy just seem rather silly to me (which explains why I don't smoke, or drink coffee.)

Plus, I get into enough trouble for stuff I say while I'm SOBER.  God only knows what type of crap I'd say/reveal if I were drunk.

In addition, I'm have this intense dislike of drunk people.  At least, drunk people I have to deal with at my job.  Seems to me for the most part I was get the "loud obnoxious" type of drunks rather than the quiet, introspective (or even funny) ones.  You know, like the type who think it's hilarious to drop half a box of matches down the toilet, or think they do good impression of barnyard animals and that EVERYONE ELSE wants to hear them.

(sigh) 

it existed before corporations existed and would exist without them. the corporations are filling a want by the consumer. plus micro brews, family wineries, designer vodkas etc. it's not all just budweiser.

not that I have a problem with that either. or anything really

I drink when there's nothing else to do.  I wouldn't say I'm an alcoholic, but I am definitely an alcohol abuser.

I'll pick up a sixer of IPA (India Pale Ale) and a sixer of regular pale ale and drink them both until they're gone.  This is usually done while playing with friends on my Xbox 360.  After I'm done with video games, I'll jump on the computer and mess around and edit my airsoft website or piece videos together from the tons of footage I've shot.  That, or I'll get on certain forums and make an ass of myself.  I've done that many times on this forum.
My drinking was at its heaviest after the death of my younger brother back in 2003.  Most of the threads I wrote on here were done when I was wasted out of my mind.  Some of them were pretty good...but I berely remember writing them.

I've cut way down since those days.  I used to drink 12-20 beers minimum in one sitting.  Now a 12 pack will do me just fine.  And no spirits!  Only beer!  And it has to be strong beer.  None of that Bud Light crap.  I only drink high end craft brews.  Usually IPA's.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, I believe it's common knowledge that it's a drug, and thus a drug addiction when it becomes a problem. I'm not trying to be condescending, but Where I grew up, we learned it was a drug and addictive in about the 7th grade health class, which for me would be as long ago as the early 80's. I don't see where people are forgetting this. Not caring, yes. Forgetting, no.



Again, I'm not trying to be condescending, but if you mean this literally, then I am completely stunned. If you really feel that way, then you're taking your identity as straight edge a little too seriously. I hope you were just being overly dramatic.

Now I've never told others what to do and I don't plan on starting now but I think people should well be aware of the consequences of their actions and I don't feel it right that society puts pressure on others to conform and fit into what they want - that I'll rebel against all my life. I don't let my choice stop me from going out and of course others have been drinking around me and I've never said anything to them or tried to make them stop. I simply drank my water and remained sober. I don't believe in violence of starting any confrontations. Honestly it's rare nowadays anyone bothers me now that it's known I don't drink. That said, I honestly prefer the atmosphere of a non-drinking all ages environment...

And yeah I meant what I was on a personal level...if a gun was put to my head, I think I'd take the bullet first.

I post at a muslim forum sometimes. They find Christ turning water into wine to be completely baffling. I'm like" it's a celebration, it's like a social thing" blanks stares

I drank in my 20s, a lot, but found it to be a nice way to chill out.  I find there is nothing better than kicking back a few with buds.  Also it lowers my tension towards social settings so I usually end up having a good time.  HOWEVER, and thats a big "however", theres a point where I think a person should know their limit.  They say drinking brings out the "true you".  In my case, I'm extremely bipolar.  If I go over a limit, I could go from hugging people to swinging fists which is something I never liked about myself.  I often didn't know my limit and kept going where I should have stopped.  Hence why I spent many a night with a puke bucket near my bed.

I think as one gets older you tend to learn what their limit is when it comes to alcohol consumption.  I find there is a fine difference from being relaxed to having the damn room spin.  Thats the point when things go from fun to just uncomfortable.  If a person doesn't know their limit by a certain age then they sadly aren't a responsible human being to begin with.

Which brings me to this...show me statistics all you want of traffic deaths.  Not one human life is worth losing to drunk driving.  Why do people drive drunk?  Of course usually they're leaving a bar or club.  I personally have driven home a few times when I was over the limit.  However, I never getting so sh!t faced I was irresponsible behind the wheel. Unless I had a designated driver I always had that voice in the back of my head telling me to cut off at a certain point.  Sadly, too many people don't.  

Of course you could blame the bars or clubs that keep dishing out the drinks.   A lot of places would rather hear the ring of the cash register than to take responsiblity.  I went to bartending school and its made clear from the get go you can't judge people just because they're loud and obnoxious.  The old dude in the corner quietly drinking could be just as drunk as the coed dancing on the table.  I honestly feel a lot of places drop the ball when it comes to responsible bartending.  However as stated, sometimes you just  can't tell.  

Nowadays I drink very little.  I find I need to sleep it off and with three kids up at the crack of dawn its basically impossible.  

Just thought this was kind of interesting and funny...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZPzA-aBHgo

It is funny.  I am a big fan of his as well as his various musical outputs and whatnot.

Just kinda disagree with the straight edgers alot.  Not necessarily cause I drink and they don't.  Just a lot of em seem to be especially pushy and uncompromising and expect others to do what they do.  I don't force alcohol on em, don't force me to NOT drink if I don't want.  It's not ALL of them, but a good amount. :wink:

I've never publicly in person pushed straight edge on anyone else nor would I. I do believe everyone has the right to choose what they want and I appreciate it a lot when people don't try and push me into doing something I don't want to do...

Now I hope people who do commit alcohol abuse at least are aware of the potential negative health consequences and I hope they do eventually learn to value their health so as not to abuse their bodies but at the same time, I'm not going to preach at them. I have known people who also drank very responsibly, would never drink and drive and that's to be commended too. If you are going to drink, I think responsibility should be encouraged. I personally choose not to drink but like I said, I've been to many dances, parties etc. where people did. I never stopped them or told they what to do nor do I plan to start. I'm very happy many bars nowadays have non-alcoholic alternatives so I can buy something from there if I choose to...I'm not an hardline militant straight edge person. I don't think it's right to expect everyone to behave exactly the same in the world.

It's commendable you adhere to your beliefs Jase. I want to make clear I wasn't talking about you specifically in my last post. Mainly the other guys within that hard-nosed straight edge group I've encountered that've tried to 'save me', so to speak.

I should mention, while I do like to imbibe from time to time, I've not been drunk in almost two months, the longest I have gone in ten years.

Yeah I know there are a lot of more militant types out there who want to insist on making everyone follow their own set of rules...personally I think it flies in the face of what straight edge was initially all about. The early bands were very anti-racism, anti-fascism, anti-hate..and punk as a whole is anti-authority IMO. Now granted a lot of edgers also believe very strongly in trying to help improve the community as a whole and no doubt some think they are helping you by trying to as you put it "save" you. Personally I think it's an individual choice that cannot be forced upon someone else. If one chooses to embrace the lifestyle, it really should be their choice. Otherwise, these edgers are resulting to the same peer pressure tactics that often those who push drugs use. I know Ian Mackaye who first used the term straight edge in a song distances himself from it due to these hate monger types who run around fighting with and beating up people who drink, smoke, etc.. It's stuff like this that makes me want to distance myself from the label at times too. So if I drop the label, it'll probably be because it's become too associated with these  negative elements. I believe very strong though in the positive straight edge movement that doesn't try to push their beliefs on others but does act as a good example of how to live and treat others.

I don't know man.  I respect it in today's society that they'll not give in to the no alcohol/drug scene.  I like that they try to be positive and almost 70% of the ones I've encountered were mostly positive.  It's the minority group that enforces their beliefs on me when we meet that gives the rest a bad name.  They're like, "You're all the same...poisoning yourself and society, and bringing it around me is something you shouldn't do."  I just looked at em like, "I'm not asking you to partake, I'm doing me."  And it led to fights and such... :lookingup:

"What keeps mankind alive?"

I am what people refer to as a high-functioning alcoholic. I drink a lot; I enjoy alcohol. I don't drink because I have some sort of central defect of character. I don't drink to fill some sort of hole in my life. I drink because I enjoy being drunk. That's all there is to it.

I do not drink when I have something to do. And I keep myself ridiculously busy. I am addicted to accomplishing things. Getting drunk is a momentary reprieve.

I don't drink because I don't like the taste of alcohol. I got drunk once or twice many years ago, and ended up over the toilet seat puking my guts out.
Here in rural Germany parents let their little children drink from their beers at fests, and kids not older than 12, 13 are hospitalized because of alcohol poisoning.
Has nothing to do with low income, unemployment or being depressed. Germany is and always has been a happy beer drinking nation.

I enjoy the drink, but it is a large part of our culture here in some respects.  There's nothing better than sitting outside on a beautiful day/night with those you love and sharing in a good conversation over a few glasses of something or rather.

I've probably been abusing my body too much in the last 12 months for no good reason: drinking more and exercising less.  That being said I have very rarely got to the point where I'm a stumbling idiot so I guess I'm like Mofo in that respect : some people become an absolute mess, but I'll just keep chugging along with only a mild haziness to the world.  I rarely drink to get drunk, but I have noticed that in the last 12 months at least I have indulged in a beer or some other alcohol at least 6 times a week.  Sometimes quite a few, sometimes only one or two drinks with dinner/winding down after work.  Nothing to become a teetotaller but probably enough if you add it all up over a week.

Though now that I've passed my mid twenties this behaviour should probably be dialed back a bit for my older self's sake.  The lack of exercise has me more worried though.

As far as attitudes go, I don't have a problem with alcohol myself, or for anyone else as long as you're not the type who gets violent or makes stupid decisions like driving.  People like that have no great sense of responsibiliy that largely is there regardless of the alcohol, but we all know people who 'change' when on the drink, so it's not for everyone, just like how certain drugs [legal or non-legal] can effect people in different ways I suppose.  If only we could get the scientists onto a device that tells you what effects you and how, to help people make a more informed choice about their 'poison'.  Get with it science!

I pretty much drank my 20s away because I had a lot of good friends and great times, and also to numb the fact that I pretty much wasted five years of my life by going to college to receive a degree I wasn't going to use and was, at the time, working a horrible menial labor job.  I hated my life from about 2004-2007. 

I used to get real crazy drunk, but I was never violent.  No, always lovey-dovey.  I did, however, act off the wall and weird, sometimes downright childish and clumsy.  During one of my last benders, I was so out of control clumsy that they cut me off well before the night was over, yet I continued to somehow get my hands on a beer.  They eventually had to slip a roofie in my last drink.  Good thing I didn't die.  After that night and dealing with the hangover, I toned my drinking down.

A LOT.  I only had two other binges since the aforementioned incident, one was a New Year's Eve party and the other was my bachelor party.  The latter left me wishing I were dead and I haven't gotten slaughtered drunk since, and hopefully never will. 

I drink maybe once every three or four months and am usually done after my second beer.  After having thrown up so many times I can't even stomach the stuff beyond the second drink.  My gagging gets going and I'm through. 

I also became a bit worried for my health (also the reason I quit smoking about four years ago).  I didn't want to ram my liver into the ground anymore, or slowly pickle my brain.  I'm a bit saddened that all the best memories of my twenties, apart from meeting my wife, had to do with damn near drinking myself to death.  At the same time, they're very fun and fond memories, but only because I had great friends to damn near die with.

I'm sorry to hear that in your world there is such a pressure upon you to drink. I've experienced peer pressure, sure. Who hasn't? But in my experience I've just never seen the level of pressure that you appear to have. You paint a picture of a world trying to hold you down and pour booze down your gullet while you heroically abstain. I don't know your age or what circles you run in, but at this point in my adult life I just never see the kind of pressure you're talking about. Maybe when I was in my early twenties, but honestly in my world there are drinkers and non-drinkers and we all seem to get along famously.   

No,  I don't get pressured the same nowadays as I did when I was younger but the Newfoundland culture is very much a drinking one...so much so they even have "screeching" in ceremonies to create honorary Newfoundlanders when tourists visit. Although in more recent years, some have started using Purity syrup as an alcohol alternative for screeching in (especially as it concerns recovering alcoholics). Usually the only folks who do not drink around here are religious folks so as I'm not religious, I'm very much the odd duck around here. Most people here just assume you drink and those who do not know me are usually surprised to learn I don't touch it at all...although many will commend you for your stance, I often get the sense they don't really get it.

I have no idea what screeching is.

Nevermind, I just looked it up. That's ridiculous. No wonder you find drinkers annoying. I come from a world of wine and microbrews and fine whiskey and Scotch. A different world, to be sure, because the focus is people who care more about the art of something that has been around for thousands of years.

:question: I don't care, just gimme a drink.

 :bouncegiggle:

Me, I come from a world of Budweiser and Coors Light.  I love it.  Cause nobody likes Budweiser. :buggedout:

Personally, I've noticed I've not really drank in a while.  At least, not beyond two drinks.  I got severely drunk on my birthday and realized that from 21-27, between the alcohol and drug abuse, my body is such I just can't handle it like I did.  I'm not severely out of shape but have noticed I can't walk upstairs anymore without losing breath.  And I'm only 27. :buggedout:

So now, if anything, I enjoy one or two beers while watching a baseball game and call it a night.

I'm 43 and don't seem to have problems with handling alcohol, which I'm sure influence my attitudes. But then, I don't tend to drink heavily, that is, I rarely get rip-roaring drunk. When I do, I feel it, but I recover pretty quickly. Still, I don't like being hungover, so I keep myself from drinking that much. I seem to be able to self-regulate pretty well, but I understand that not everyone seems to have that ability.

I don't have that ability.  I wish I did. 

Oh yeah, that's what I meant to mention. I don't seem to suffer from bad hangovers. Only been badly hungover 2-3 times in the past 6 years from when I first started boozing. All that seems to happen now, is that my stomach feels like it's melting. I'm probably gonna end up sliding down the toilet like that dude in Street Trash.

I get really bad hangovers.  Wake up, the room immediately spins, I lose about 30 pounds in vomit, I shake violently, lay down, the bed shakes, and I vomit some more.  Then the dry heaves, and by the time I get better it's 8PM.  Fun times. 

I think I'm a have a few drinks tonight.  Been kinda down in the dumps lately.  Drinking makes me forget.   :bluesad:

Ummm. Just don't get a hangover. Aside from that, cheers.  :cheers:

Kind of hard, isn't it?  I don't wanna drink, but I like to.  And if I'm going to drink, I do it to obliteration.  It's my Olympic sport, so to speak.

Addiction to alcohol obviously leads to problems.  Addiction to pretty much anything is problematic.  I personally have nothing against consumption of alcohol, although I'm generally opposed to most other drugs (I don't see what the big deal is with pot, though).  I drink very rarely, and it's usually more social than anything; I've been drunk maybe 6 or 7 times.  What baffles me is how people can drink until they're sick all the time.  I've gotten sick one time from drinking and I'll do anything I can to never let it happen again.  I was watching the original Dawn of the Dead late at night in my basement by myself.  I may have had one beer or something but I was sipping straight from a bottle of rum throughout the film.  I didn't feel too torn up or anything, but once them film came to its conclusion I stood up and was like, "Uh-oh."  I went to the bathroom and puked my guts out.  I kept puking when there was nothing left to puke up.  I eventually found my way to bed and when I woke up I started the day with more gutless puking.  I had a horrible hangover and spent some time enjoying the bathroom floor. 

God, how do people do it?

Some people are just cut out for drinking, and some aren't. There's no explaining it. I enjoy good wine and good beer, so I'm not drinking to get drunk. So you don't really see me doing tequila shots or downing rum. Although I do enjoy sipping a nice whiskey or scotch on occasion. I do enjoy the general feeling of a couple of drinks. The other day my wife and I relaxed in the hot tub with a couple of cold Coronas. What could be wrong with that?

I have never had a hangover in my life, no matter how much I drank or how much I mixed various drinks in a single night.  Of course, I have been tired or maybe had a headache the next morning, but after an hour or so I've always been back on my feet.  I have never been sick the day after drinking like some people (you know . . . out of commission for the whole day . . . in bed . . . can't move).  Here is what works for me:

* NEVER drink and then go to bed without eating.  I'm sure having a stomach full of liquor and then going to sleep is what causes most people to have terrible hangovers the next day.  I find that "doughy," high carb foods work best for me.  Eat a stack of pancakes or some pizza before you go to bed and you will feel fine in the morning.

* Take aspirins, Alka Seltzer or whatever your favorite remedy is BEFORE YOU GO TO BED.  Most people wait until the next morning when they already feel terrible.  Too late.  So, eat something, then suck down an Alka Seltzer.  You'll be bright-eyed and bushy-tailed in the morning.

And that's my advice for today.


 :cheers:



 

Last New Year's Eve was the last time I got pretty drunk, both the wife and I. We spent the night at a local Indian Casino. The next morning we had a bloody Mary each as hair of the dog. It works.

The puking and puking again and then waking up and puking some more is alcohol poisoning. It is literally poisoning. You've overloaded your body's ability to deal with the excess of alcohol you've subjected it to. Not a good thing to do.

I remember when I first moved out of the house and spent a weekend with my uncle at his cabin drinking with some friends of his. There was a gentleman there who described his experience with hangovers. He didn't wake up with the common symptoms of a hangover (headaches and the like). No, when he woke up he wanted to die.

I had no experience like it at the time, but it rings truer to me more and more these days. I don't get hangovers much these days, but I find when I drink too much I have a general sense of malaise the day after. I think it has to do with neurotransmitters and the lack of true sleep. Alcohol disrupts true REM sleep, you get none of the benefits of true sleep when you drink alcohol. REM sleep is necessary for life and mental health.

That's why I made it a rule not to drink when I had something important the next day. It's more than a simple hangover, your body chemistry is screwed when you subject it to a bit of hard drinking. I'm very protective of my brain when I have to use it.

Good point about REM sleep. Actually, a mild wine buzz makes me sleep like a baby and I wake up feeling grand. But, over consumption will do that to you. I certainly don't sleep right if I'm dead drunk, which is exactly why I so rarely do it.

On the other hand, back when I was in my early 20's and would get rip-roaring drunk more often, I was also working as either a mover or in construction. Heavy physcial labor. I found that I would wake up with a hangover and that there was no way I was going to be able handle the job site or moving refrigerators up staircases, but it would turn out that good ol' hard physical labor was exactly what would kill my hangover, and by the mid day I felt completely normal again. Whereas if I had stayed home and nursed my hangover I would have had that malaise you speak of.

Then again, who really knows? Everyone's body works differently.

Alcohol pretty much destroyed my brother's first two marriages (he no longer drinks and i am SO glad).  Ironically, he's third wife was a closet alcoholic and that was the end of his last marriage. I hate being around drunks, Izzy's daddy would drink, among other things, and turn into a complete monster. I am so happy that I've been able to keep her away from that.  :teddyr: being a good mom is really important to me!
I drink occasionally but rarely do i consume alcohol to the point that I am falling down drunk. I may have a glass of wine before I go to bed while i unwind at night or enjoy a tequila shot when out eating tex-mex. At least when I do get slammed, I know the reason for it and that makes it alot easier not to drink. I haven't really sworn off alcohol...just for the first time in my life, I am truly happy and the last thing I want to have to do is have to come up with some sort of an excuse for my actions. Life is just too short and happiness is too fleeting, so I'm giving it my all to stay happy.
Also, I wanted to mention, today makes me six days without any sort of narcotics. Granted, they are prescribed and I am sure there are times when they are going to be a necessity, but i don't want to be too dependent on them. It's been a hard week (that is an understatement ) and the withdrawls have been awful, but like I said, I'm happy and don't want to mess that up. On a lighter note, turns out that when you don't have bottles of morphine laying around, it's amazing how much your company dwindles down.... oh well, don't guess those people were my friends to begin with... and that's OK, i have all the friends i need right here on the board!

I should mention that I'm one of those people, that while drunk, am extremely giddy, happy and joking around.  Haven't actually been an 'angry drunk.'

Eventually I want to get to a place where I live without it in any shape. 

Moderate drinking is a wonderful thing.  It adds to the richness and sweetness of life.

Excessive drinking is a hellish thing.

Abstinence is... something I'm thankful to have avoided.  But, if you're going to err to one extreme or the other, teetotalling is preferable.

Those are among the wisest words posted on this thread. Thank you.

I had a guy come into work today to pick up a cheque. He was almost in tears and clutching his kidney/liver area (I don't know where stuff is - I'm no organ genius), he told me not to "get into heavy drinking". The guy reeked of booze from every pore and he gave me quite a shock. We had to sort him out quick, as he said he had a hospital appointment and they were giving him medication. This dude really looked in agony and like he didn't look to have long on this mortal coil either. I felt real bad for the dude, but obviously there was nothing I could do for him. I'm gonna go easy on the drink tonight, because he really has put me off annihilating myself on a regular basis and I certainly don't want to end up in that state.

http://www.sunshinecoasthealthcentre.ca/alcohol.html (http://www.sunshinecoasthealthcentre.ca/alcohol.html)

http://www.alcohol-abuse-effects.com/ (http://www.alcohol-abuse-effects.com/)

Liver damage is very common with long term alcohol abuse and can lead to cirrhosis which can in turn lead to death.

I don't think anyone is arguing against or denying that. . .

Never meant to cause an argument. Just wanted to put it in there...

That's where my dad's headed.  Hardcore drinker.  No memories of him without some kinda alcoholic beverage in the past 27 years. :buggedout:

I'll drink on occasion, but I won't binge or get drunk.  I have way too many friends who can't have a "good time" without some sort of intoxicant (whether that be alcohol or weed), and I think it's just sad.  I wish people my age didn't need to drink to have fun. :bluesad:

So drinking tonight. Friend is shipping off to war and were doing a get together.

I don`t really believe anyone really needs to drink to have fun. I never have. But some people do think that they do...

After the day i've had, I need two things:

1. To hear my boyfriend's voice

2. A stout glass of red wine.

preferably both at the same time!

Dont need to drink. Just want to.

Seconded.

I have a friend who doesn't drink all that much (by English standards anyway) but just seems to live for a bottle at the end of the week - which makes me angry if anything. Hell he's a great guy, and really comes out his shell when he's drinking, probably the 'healthiest' drunk personality wise I know but it does some wierd.

However I remember Stewart Lee suggesting something on a debate show in the UK, when the spectre of binge drinking reared its head once more in the press. The MPs mentioned various figures about the work hours lost, cost to the health service etc. Lee remarked that they'd probably never figure out how many hours are maintained and how many people are kept balanced by the prospect of unwinding at the end of a grinding work week with a beer. Arguably an almost glib point but there's definately truth to it.

Personally I do loathe the clubbing/binge culture you'll find in any British town on a weekend and I tend to stick to water if I ever get dragged along if only to keep my wits about me. Particularly in Liverpool, 1 in 10 guys seem to go out to the bars on a Friday just to start a bloody fight.

But then I love a night in the pub with some good friends and nothing brings me more pleasure than popping down my local in the middle of the day, sitting in one of its dark little alcoves and reading a good book with a pint. As Powell says, alcohol as a flavouring to events can make them more pleasurable but if the final goal is just to get wankered and puke, to quote William Shatner: I can't behind that.

My brother killed himself with alcohol.  He had a crippling arthritis the last several years of his life which contributed to his abuse of booze.  He was not yet 58 years old.  All of the conditions that contributed to his decline (ulcers, perforated intestine, gallbladder infection, heart failure, pneumonia) were all caused by his drinking.  He was an alcoholic since he was probably 18, though he was a lot older than me and I cannot know for sure, except that when he was a newly married man, I know he got drunk every night. 

Oh, wow.  That's sad to hear. 

All these stories I've read, shame.

I just heard a news report today about some study that concluded you are something like 30% more likely to die from pancreatic cancer if you have 3 drinks of hard liquor per day.  I don't drink nearly that much now . . . but I did about 20 years ago . . .

Everybody needs to do SOMETHING to have fun, unless doing absolutely nothing is fun. People watch bad movies to have fun. People go to concerts to have fun. People go skiing for fun. There are lots of activities people do for fun. Alchohol is just one of many things one can do for fun or to enhance it.

Take Irish music sessions, for example. Drinking is just a part of the experience, but it is far from being needed. When I play, sometimes I don't drink at all, sometimes I'll nurse a pint, sometimes I'll have two or three, and only once have I ever gotten rip-roaring drunk and I didn't enjoy playing by that point and I may as well have stayed home. When I play there are anywhere between 3 to 10 others, some of them drinking, some not. Nobody cares and most of the time nobody is a detriment to the session because of having a few pints. For any individual, drinking is just something you either do or you don't and it's not stressed, but it's almost guaranteed that at least one or two will be drinking at least a pint or two. I would enjoy the experience whether I drank or not, but when I have one or two, the experience is enhanced, I don't care whether one calls that a need or not.

Really? Hmmm.  That's pretty bad news to hear.  Eesh.