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Title: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Trevor on July 06, 2011, 04:27:06 AM
Since I've had access to Fox News, I've been both enthralled and disgusted by this trial and was seriously bummed out when the jury found her not guilty of allegedly murdering her child. There were some parts of this trial that made me go  :buggedout: and more that made me go  :hatred: ~ any thoughts on the trial, verdict, etc?


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: RCMerchant on July 06, 2011, 04:57:22 AM
Personally-I thought she was guilty from day one.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Jack on July 06, 2011, 06:30:50 AM
My wife told me about that and I'm like "Huh?"   :bouncegiggle:


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Mr. DS on July 06, 2011, 06:40:26 AM
As mentioned in the the "random thoughts" thread, if she wasn't white and somewhat attractive no one would hardly care sadly.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: indianasmith on July 06, 2011, 08:06:00 AM
I think she is probably guilty, but frankly, there was not enough evidence to convict her.  The body was too far gone when discovered.  She was guilty of acting VERY suspiciously and being a compulsive liar.  But the evidence wasn't there for a murder conviction.



Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Trevor on July 06, 2011, 08:08:49 AM
I think she is probably guilty, but frankly, there was not enough evidence to convict her.  The body was too far gone when discovered. 

That's the reason that I went off to sleep last night thinking "OK, not guilty" and only got the verdict this morning.

I still think that she is guilty, though.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 06, 2011, 08:14:47 AM
It doesn't really matter what any of us personally think. Whether she murdered her child or not, the public is always going to want a conviction. There will always be a rift between the legal presumption of innocence and the social presumption of guilt. Do I like that somebody was murdered and there is no justice? Of course not. Let's not operate under a delusion that the legal system always gets it right. However, in the big picture, I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be convicted. I also happen to believe in the death penalty, just so long as the legal presumption of innocence prevails. I don't know what that labels me. I really don't care. But, as I said at the beginning, it doesn't really matter what any of us personally think about the Casey Anthony trial.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 06, 2011, 08:29:34 AM
I'll add one other comment. I'm not saying that nobody should talk about it or start a thread about it. I don't want it to come across that way. I'm just saying that none of us were in the jury, and none of us saw everything that happened in the courtroom. I hope the jurors don't end up with death threats to add to their existing stress. I wouldn't want to have the responsibility that they were forced to have. I also wouldn't want to be the family of that child and have to deal with a lack of justice.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: ghouck on July 06, 2011, 01:59:00 PM
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be convicted.

For argument's sake, I always liked this response to that statement: "what about all the people those ten guilty people victimize because they were let free? You're effecting more than one innocent person negatively by letting ten guilty people free. How is that better?"



Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Jack on July 06, 2011, 02:18:01 PM
It really wouldn't surprise me if the news networks ran 10 - 15 of these cases past focus groups to determine which one had the most emotional impact and therefore got the go-ahead as the next national "news" story.  In fact I'd be rather surprised if they didn't.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 06, 2011, 02:18:26 PM
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be convicted.

For argument's sake, I always liked this response to that statement: "what about all the people those ten guilty people victimize because they were let free? You're effecting more than one innocent person negatively by letting ten guilty people free. How is that better?"



I never claimed it didn't affect people. I simply accept as a positive the legal concept of the presumption of innocence over the presumption of guilt that the mob tends to embrace. I think all victims should have justice, but not at the expense of due process. I happen to know an entire family whose lives were turned upside down by somebody having been harassed and imprisoned for something he was not guilty of, with no due process, and that affected multiple people's lives, believe me. So yes, I believe that the imprisonment of a living innocent person to be a greater injustice than the acquittal of a guilty person. Nobody is saying you have to agree with me, but as far as my beliefs go, I will not compromise due process in favor of closure for victims. That does not make me unsympathetic.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: ghouck on July 06, 2011, 03:32:27 PM
I would rather 10 guilty people go free than one innocent person be convicted.

For argument's sake, I always liked this response to that statement: "what about all the people those ten guilty people victimize because they were let free? You're effecting more than one innocent person negatively by letting ten guilty people free. How is that better?"



I never claimed it didn't affect people. I simply accept as a positive the legal concept of the presumption of innocence over the presumption of guilt that the mob tends to embrace. I think all victims should have justice, but not at the expense of due process. I happen to know an entire family whose lives were turned upside down by somebody having been harassed and imprisoned for something he was not guilty of, with no due process, and that affected multiple people's lives, believe me. So yes, I believe that the imprisonment of a living innocent person to be a greater injustice than the acquittal of a guilty person. Nobody is saying you have to agree with me, but as far as my beliefs go, I will not compromise due process in favor of closure for victims. That does not make me unsympathetic.


No need to take it personally, as I said, it's just for argument's sake, just a look on the situation from a different angle in order to spark an intelligent debate.

You say the imprisonment of an innocent person is a greater injustice than the acquittal of a guilty person, and I agree, but ten times the injustice? Still, the issue of people being victimized by those guilty people set free is often the part that is ignored. If you let 10 guilty murderers go free just to keep from putting one innocent person in prison, is that really justice? I guess that depends on your proximity to the people those 10 go and kill after going free. Do you see the point I'm getting at? There's more to it than just the guilty and innocent parties, everything else tends to get left out. So much so that you don't mention it in either of your posts. I'm not digging at you for that, it's just the ugly truth of our system, and it's generally the 'elephant in the room' that nobody talks about. I've NEVER heard anyone bring that up in a conversation/discussion until directly drilled about it, which makes me wonder if people think about it at all.

I personally feel much the same as you do, due process is paramount to a fair and just system, but am intrigued by people's positions, as the entire issue sparks emotional reactions as much as it does logic and calculated thinking. There are some places where the opposite is embraced: they would rather have ten innocent people be punished than allow one guilty person go free, and those places are in all reality laughing at us for our crime rates and recidivism. One could look at it as if our system victimizes us either way: either imprisoning us for doing nothing, or making us live in a society where criminals run amok.



Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 06, 2011, 04:12:45 PM
Quote
If you let 10 guilty murderers go free just to keep from putting one innocent person in prison, is that really justice?

Of course not. It's simply a sentiment demonstrating the absoluteness of my resolution, sort of like when Patrick Henry said "give me liberty or give me death." Clearly you see that I don't support the idea of letting bunches of criminals run free. You're just baiting me, aren't you?

 :wink:


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: ghouck on July 06, 2011, 04:15:54 PM
Quote
If you let 10 guilty murderers go free just to keep from putting one innocent person in prison, is that really justice?

Of course not. It's simply a sentiment demonstrating the absoluteness of my resolution, sort of like when Patrick Henry said "give me liberty or give me death." Clearly you see that I don't support the idea of letting bunches of criminals run free. You're just baiting me, aren't you?

 :wink:

No, I'm not baiting you at all, as I said, I am list looking for a discussion.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: akiratubo on July 06, 2011, 04:28:12 PM
Hadn't heard of it before someone asked me what I thought of the verdict.  Looking back over the trial, the prosecution didn't have much of a case.  In fact, I'm surprised they even bothered to go to trial on the case they had.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 06, 2011, 04:29:36 PM
Quote
If you let 10 guilty murderers go free just to keep from putting one innocent person in prison, is that really justice?

Of course not. It's simply a sentiment demonstrating the absoluteness of my resolution, sort of like when Patrick Henry said "give me liberty or give me death." Clearly you see that I don't support the idea of letting bunches of criminals run free. You're just baiting me, aren't you?

 :wink:

No, I'm not baiting you at all, as I said, I am list looking for a discussion.

I'm just joking there. I agree with your points, actually. The last one in particular:

Quote
One could look at it as if our system victimizes us either way: either imprisoning us for doing nothing, or making us live in a society where criminals run amok.

And just to keep the thread focused on this particular trial so we don't hijack it, I haven't taken the time to study this one intently, but I'm sure I'll get around to it. It obviously evokes memories of the O.J. Simpson trial. I'll admit in that case that I too am still convinced that he committed the crime. The evidence was just so overwhelming that it baffles the mind to imagine that he couldn't be convicted. Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book about it and basically said, that when the suspect's blood is at the scene of the crime, it's about as convincing as it can get short of an firsthand witness of the murder. How those prosecutors were unable to obtain a conviction is just ridiculous. I mean, he convicted the Manson family on far less.

My understanding is that there was nothing so open and shut in this trial, that there simply wasn't strong enough evidence to support a conviction. I don't know. I wasn't there.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: ghouck on July 06, 2011, 05:34:02 PM
The problem was IIRC that there was some of OJs blood missing, and Mark Furhman gave the defense an easy way to bring up the idea that he was a racist. I do have to say, that although I believe OJ is guilty of those murders, I believe that blood evidence should not be admitted and was suspect to tampering. The worst part imo was that the 'missing' blood was likely a clerical error: the medic drawing something like 9.3cc of blood and calling it 10cc. A small issue perhaps, but there's absolutely no reason for the procedure to be as accurate as possible.

That whole trial, as well as the Casey Anthony trial, the Michelle Linehan trial, the Michael Jackson trial(s) had sooo many people completely out of the loop speaking "factually" about it that it looked like a circus sideshow. The number of a***oles standing outside those courthouses holding signs made me want to puke considering none of those people new anything except what they WANTED to be true.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: WildHoosier09 on July 06, 2011, 08:56:54 PM
I served on a jury once for an attempted murder case. In that case the man charged had lived out the American dream by beating the sh*t out of a lawyer who had just succesfully screwed him out of an insurance settlement on the 4th story of the courthouse. The thing is this happened next to the railing so we had to decide if he was trying to throw her over (40ft drop to cement) or just beat her up. The defense whipped out the insanity plea which we (the jury) didn't buy since he had no history of mental illness. In the end even with video of the attack (where we see him beating her up, but not lifting her) there wasn't really any indication that he was trying to throw her over so we convicted him on class C confinement. If the prosecution had charged him with assault they would have gotten that too but they didn't for some reason.

It's true that unless they have video of you gunning down the person in cold blood, always go to trial and never plea out. From what I can gather they definitely would have easy convictions for Casey on obstruction of justice, lying to police and other related charges but they just didn't have enough evidence to prove that she had killed the child. Proving murder is tough as hell though unless you really have credible evidence and in this case they just didn't have enough to prove it.  The prosecution in this case would have been better off sticking to the charges they could actually prove rather than shooting for the moon.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: ghouck on July 06, 2011, 11:25:08 PM
If the prosecution had charged him with assault they would have gotten that too but they didn't for some reason.

This is a manipulative and sickening trend in criminal courts these days: Go for the big one leaving nothing or little else on the table, hoping you will get it because people will be reluctant to not convict them on SOMETHING.

I for one have lost quite a bit of faith in our system. I see people getting a bunch of time after fighting what was an obviously impossible battle because their lawyer advised them to looking for the big paycheck. We have some wench that killed someone and crippled another on her 5th DWI and she had never done any significant time before that. Then I heard from two people that had been on jury duty who convicted a guy for DWI and it was NEVER established solidly that he had been drinking OR driving. Often the old saying "If you take your case to trial, you're leaving your life in the hands of 13 people that weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty" rings true.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: OmegaGeek on July 07, 2011, 07:45:22 AM
I personally think that she's guilty as sin, but I'm not a juror so my vote doesn't count.

What DID really annoy me right after the verdict came out was not everyone discussing it, reactions, etc, but the people who went NUCLEAR that people were talking about it. I was smugly lectured via posts on every social media I participate in, that talking about or thinking about the verdict was just making it into a 'media circus'.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Vik on July 07, 2011, 08:06:03 AM
If there's not enough evidence, she shouldn't be convicted. Innocent until proven guilty, is important. The media or the public shouldn't play any part in convicting or not convicting anyone. I'm also wondering how this is a priority at all? Sure, it's very sad and horrific thing, but it doesn't deserve this amount of attention, there's stuff that's a lot more important going on.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Mr. DS on July 07, 2011, 12:06:12 PM
I saw an interview with a juror who held up to questioning very nicely.  Prosecution, as stated on here by a few people, ultimately failed to prove murder.  Was the death an accident, maybe.  Is Anthony a nutjob that is a horrible mother, definitely.  However, and I see the point now, there was hardly a thing linking her to the charge of actual murder.  

Personally I heard a theory that I agree with.  She probably got mad back home because her parents put their foot when it came to watching the baby.  Hence her setting out on a life of her own with her daughter.  Once on her own she ultimately realized a kid is a lot of work.  She easily could have chloroformed the baby into sleeping and kept her in the trunk.  Then one day she got so sh!t faced she forgot to get her out the next morning.  Seems probable to me but it is just a theory no one can prove.  Just as the prosecution couldn't prove it here either.

All I can say is she definitely has screws loose and sadly there are more people out there just like her.  Lesson, birth control, birth control, birth control...thats all I can say.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 07, 2011, 03:09:36 PM
I saw an interview with a juror who held up to questioning very nicely.  Prosecution, as stated on here by a few people, ultimately failed to prove murder.  Was the death an accident, maybe.  Is Anthony a nutjob that is a horrible mother, definitely.  However, and I see the point now, there was hardly a thing linking her to the charge of actual murder.  

Personally I heard a theory that I agree with.  She probably got mad back home because her parents put their foot when it came to watching the baby.  Hence her setting out on a life of her own with her daughter.  Once on her own she ultimately realized a kid is a lot of work.  She easily could have chloroformed the baby into sleeping and kept her in the trunk.  Then one day she got so sh!t faced she forgot to get her out the next morning.  Seems probable to me but it is just a theory no one can prove.  Just as the prosecution couldn't prove it here either.

All I can say is she definitely has screws loose and sadly there are more people out there just like her.  Lesson, birth control, birth control, birth control...thats all I can say.

A fine post. The public tends to get very emotional, especially when the death of an innocent child is involved. It makes my blood boil as well. As understandable as it is, it's still mob thinking. Just using the word "mob" carries with it a very nasty connotation, not one that I'm trying to attribute to people are disgusted with the outcome, because that reaction is natural and right in my opinion.

The courtroom, and due process, is a completely different ballpark. The prosecution simply was unable to establish guilt. That's the way of things. Ultimately, if due process was properly used, then it is a win for society in general, but it sucks like hell for the family.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Skull on July 07, 2011, 03:58:02 PM
My wife told me about that and I'm like "Huh?"   :bouncegiggle:

Funny, I never heard of it until after the announcement.

Not to make a joke out of the case but the more I hear about it the more it sounds like an epsode on South Park (the one where one of the kids get stab in the eye with a throwing star and instead of telling their parents they made the kid look like a dog and sent him to the vets)



Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Umaril The Unfeathered on July 08, 2011, 08:38:43 PM
As mentioned in the the "random thoughts" thread, if she wasn't white and somewhat attractive no one would hardly care sadly.

Hmm.."white and somewhat attractive".  We knew race would enter this sooner or later.

With all due respect to this statement, I guess being "black and somewhat attractive" worked for O.J. though. Oh, and being a former NFL superstar helped, as well as the usual loud minority who saw any effort to prosecute him as racism. 

Not to mention those now who see his current jail time for his criminal follies as as "revenge" for his first escape from justice.

All I can say about this trial, opinions on race aside, is that we tend to forget one big thing when it comes to cases like this, and that is, that "not guilty" does NOT come to mean "innocent."  Let's just leave it at that...

 


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 09, 2011, 01:12:53 PM
Quote
All I can say about this trial, opinions on race aside, is that we tend to forget one big thing when it comes to cases like this, and that is, that "not guilty" does NOT come to mean "innocent."

Very true. We can expound upon innocence or lack of it to our hearts content. Hell, look at how much of that happened after O.J.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Mr. DS on July 09, 2011, 09:37:56 PM
As mentioned in the the "random thoughts" thread, if she wasn't white and somewhat attractive no one would hardly care sadly.

Hmm.."white and somewhat attractive".  We knew race would enter this sooner or later.

With all due respect to this statement, I guess being "black and somewhat attractive" worked for O.J. though. Oh, and being a former NFL superstar helped, as well as the usual loud minority who saw any effort to prosecute him as racism. 

Not to mention those now who see his current jail time for his criminal follies as as "revenge" for his first escape from justice.

All I can say about this trial, opinions on race aside, is that we tend to forget one big thing when it comes to cases like this, and that is, that "not guilty" does NOT come to mean "innocent."  Let's just leave it at that...

 
I'm confused, should I form a rebuttal to this statement or are you somewhat agreeing with me. 


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Olivia Bauer on July 09, 2011, 10:17:08 PM


Didn't pay attention to a second of it. Though if you want to hear what I think of kiddy killers I can go on a ten paragraph rant for you. But I'm a lazy bastard.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: ghouck on July 19, 2011, 12:50:30 AM
Hadn't heard of it before someone asked me what I thought of the verdict.  Looking back over the trial, the prosecution didn't have much of a case.  In fact, I'm surprised they even bothered to go to trial on the case they had.

Once the pictures of Caylee hit the news, they had no choice. It's an unfortunate truth that the people care more if the victim is adorable.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: AndyC on July 19, 2011, 12:27:19 PM
Once the pictures of Caylee hit the news, they had no choice. It's an unfortunate truth that the people care more if the victim is adorable.

I'm reminded of how much mileage the tabloids got out of Jonbenet, and for how many years. From what I see in the grocery checkout, that case still keeps popping up from time to time.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Flick James on July 19, 2011, 01:27:08 PM
Once the pictures of Caylee hit the news, they had no choice. It's an unfortunate truth that the people care more if the victim is adorable.

I'm reminded of how much mileage the tabloids got out of Jonbenet, and for how many years. From what I see in the grocery checkout, that case still keeps popping up from time to time.

It's a good recycled item for the tabs when things are slow. I was flipping around channels and stopped for a few minutes on some show about child beauty pageants. I don't care how anybody might endeavor to explain it to me, that world is just very, very creepy to me.


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: ghouck on July 19, 2011, 08:29:39 PM
Once the pictures of Caylee hit the news, they had no choice. It's an unfortunate truth that the people care more if the victim is adorable.

I'm reminded of how much mileage the tabloids got out of Jonbenet, and for how many years. From what I see in the grocery checkout, that case still keeps popping up from time to time.

It's a good recycled item for the tabs when things are slow. I was flipping around channels and stopped for a few minutes on some show about child beauty pageants. I don't care how anybody might endeavor to explain it to me, that world is just very, very creepy to me.


WAAAY creepy. One has to wonder how many of those kids end up REALLY screwed up from placing so much of their self worth on their looks. Not all cute kids turn out to be attractive adolescents or adults. 


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Umaril The Unfeathered on July 21, 2011, 07:24:41 PM

As mentioned in the the "random thoughts" thread, if she wasn't white and somewhat attractive no one would hardly care sadly.

Hmm.."white and somewhat attractive".  We knew race would enter this sooner or later.

With all due respect to this statement, I guess being "black and somewhat attractive" worked for O.J. though. Oh, and being a former NFL superstar helped, as well as the usual loud minority who saw any effort to prosecute him as racism. 

Not to mention those now who see his current jail time for his criminal follies as as "revenge" for his first escape from justice.

All I can say about this trial, opinions on race aside, is that we tend to forget one big thing when it comes to cases like this, and that is, that "not guilty" does NOT come to mean "innocent."  Let's just leave it at that...

 

I'm confused, should I form a rebuttal to this statement or are you somewhat agreeing with me. 

Hi, sorry for being away so long, had some serious stuff on my plate, but I'm back, so what I meant was this: 

To answer your question:

I'm not agreeing with you about the "noone would care if she wasn't white and attractive" thing, because there are people who do care about justice, despite race and looks.

It's just like anything of this nature, that the loudest mouthpieces take center stage and wind up turning it into something other than it really is, as they mold and shape the anger of the disenfranchised to their desired effect.

And in the case of this trial, (and others to come) I'm sure there will be many many people who will feel that justice was cheated,  just like there are those who would have potentially make Casey to be a victim based on her sex and race, were she convicted.



Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Mr. DS on July 21, 2011, 09:16:20 PM
Quote
I'm not agreeing with you about the "noone would care if she wasn't white and attractive" thing, because there are people who do care about justice, despite race and looks.
I was referring to the media explosion surrounding this case.  I'm sure you'll read about someone killing their kids if you do a news search.   Do we hear about it as national news, hardly ever.  My comment was made because there are many more kids being killed sadly by sicko parents out there.  Probably because these parents had no clue what they were getting into.  Seems like a real seriously ignored issue if you ask me.

However, the media had no problem jumping on this one because the mother happened to be an attractive party girl.  Hence the photos of her in skimpy outfits circling the news dry hump dancing with boys. It just seems the wrong reason to make this case a national media frenzy.  The sad part is, that poor little girl is still dead and sadly she isn't the only one who was born to an evil parent.  


Title: Re: The Casey Anthony trial: thoughts?
Post by: Umaril The Unfeathered on July 24, 2011, 11:38:28 AM
Quote
I'm not agreeing with you about the "noone would care if she wasn't white and attractive" thing, because there are people who do care about justice, despite race and looks.


I was referring to the media explosion surrounding this case.  I'm sure you'll read about someone killing their kids if you do a news search.   Do we hear about it as national news, hardly ever.  My comment was made because there are many more kids being killed sadly by sicko parents out there.  Probably because these parents had no clue what they were getting into.  Seems like a real seriously ignored issue if you ask me.

I gotcha', totally understood.

It's just that when race, status and looks are involved, they can also be used to condemn someone as well as to elevate them to the ghoulish rank of folk hero, as the media had done with OJ Simpson many years before. That's where I was coming from.

But yes, I DO remember such cases as Andrea Yates, Eva Flores and a few others where children were murdered by their parents. I can't understand why, either.  :bluesad:


However, the media had no problem jumping on this one because the mother happened to be an attractive party girl.  Hence the photos of her in skimpy outfits circling the news dry hump dancing with boys. It just seems the wrong reason to make this case a national media frenzy.  The sad part is, that poor little girl is still dead and sadly she isn't the only one who was born to an evil parent.  

Totally agree with your assessment of the media's actions here.

However, whatever the reason the media did this, (as if it's a big mystery to begin with)
it DID play out well in a way, because it highlighted the fact that Casey was totally unphased and unaffected by the "disappearance" of her daughter.

What father (or mother) would be out acting like this at a time when their kids were missing?  Seems a bit odd to be that happy at such a bad time...