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I find the short documentary, Powers of Ten (posted below) to be one of the most fascinating documentaries ever made. It's beauty comes from the simplicity of it's presentation, yet the vastness and virtual incomprehensibility of it's subject matter.

I am fascinated with infinity. Always have been. To me, contemplating the infinite is as challenging as contemplating nothingness. My deist beliefs and the observation of the infinite get along very well. The sheer unfathomable vastness of the infinite is staggering. The posted documentary got me to digging a bit into things like Hawking's String Theory and similar related concepts. I'm certainly not the first to entertain the notion of outer space and inner space being infinite, but the concept fascinates me. Powers of Ten, originally made in 1968, shows a early glimpse into these concepts that would be later explored by the likes of Hawking.

The pet theory, or hunch, suggests that the universe is infinite in more ways than conventional understanding would suggest. The idea is that not only does the universe expand infinitely outward, but infinitely inward as well. This leads to the notion that sub-atomic particles may indeed be galaxies in their own right, and then our galaxy could be not unlike an atomic or sub-atomic particle in a larger picture, and on and on both outward and inward.

To contemplate such an idea is overwhelming, yet the observable universe, and observable "microverse," while it does not prove such a notion, it certainly suggests it.

Fractal Theory, in our immediate surrounding nature and in the observed univers, also supports this idea. Fractal Theory, in the simplest explanation, suggests that all ordered systems are a copy of something bigger or smaller. Take a tree, for example. A tree has branches. Look at the leaf and you see branches. Look even deeper and there are more branches. The same thing happens in ice crystal and other similar, striclty physical system. The universe appears to the be ultimate example of this. As one goes ever outward into outer space, one sees a constant repetition of the same thing, smaller bodies revolving around a center. As one goes the opposite direction, one sees the same thing, as atomic and subatomic particles repeat themselves, with bodies revolving around a center.

If the universe is indeed infinite, why wouldn't it be infite in either direction? Simple logic would almost scream that it could be no other way. Likewise, like the Powers of Ten, if one proceeds in those powers outward or inward, one will never reach the end of the universe, nor will one ever reach the center, as the expansion outward is increasingly increased, and the journey inward is forever reduced, as one may find the center of one stage of this infiniteness, yet as one continues, one will eventually come to the next manifestation of the universe, be it larger or smaller.

So, ultimately, who is to say that our little solar system isn't a sub-atomic particle inside a molecule of a much larger system that is so vast that we will never see it. Certainly when one observes the seemingly endless universe, it's all part of a bigger system, and who is to say that that is not part of an even larger system. The behavior of nature and of the universe does not contradict this notion. Not even in the slightest bit. In my understanding, such as it is, the behavior and order of the universe almost insists upon it.

Anyway, I've been in a highly philosophical state of mind lately. Additionally, my deist beliefs are not at all endangered by these considerations. My views of God, Creator, Ultimate Power, etc., are happily united with these considerations of the infinite. If God is indeed all powerful and infinite, and the univers it infinite, it stands to reason that God and the Universe are one. In this light, the contemplations of religion that have gone on in humanity are, whether consciously or not, are part our yearning to contemplate and understand the infinite. When one considers the universe in a way such as I've suggested, however, the ideas of God proposed by we tiny humans, are absoultely dwarfed and consumed by infinity.

So, I just felt like sharing some scientific and philosophical considerations I've had lately, and of course the included video. I welcome any comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fKBhvDjuy0

Being an atheist, it naturally doesn't clash with any views of mine, but I won't get into a discussion on theology, so I don't have much to add. But really fascinating stuff, man. Thanks for the link.

I agree


Ditto

I wasn't necessarily trying to spark a theological debate, although one is likely to present itself if there is enough interest in the thread.

What fascinates me most about this pet theory is how it deals with the center of the universe. When the average person thinks of the center of the univers, they think of a location somewhere out there that can be quantified, even if we can't see it. However, things like Fractal Theory and String Theory suggest something completely different, something that is difficult to grasp. It suggests that the center of the universe, if there is one, is subatomic. In that way, the center is right here. We are all surrounding it, in a way. It's not quite as simple as that because if the "microverse" is as infinite as the "macroverse," so to speak, then the center is non-existent, or at least can never be reached because it can never be reduced down to. This is not philosophically pleasing, but necessary if one truly accepts infinity. Infinity means no beginning and no end, at least that we can observe or fathom. So if there is no beginning and no end, then there is no end going inward either, and therefore no center, or the center is nothingness.

Fascinating stuff to consider. The thing is, the behavior and order of the universe does not contradict this idea at all. It is simply beyond our present capability or understanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyzIau5dBao

Something like that, right?   :thumbup:

 :thumbup: :bouncegiggle:

Funny. It wouldn't surprise me if that was directly influenced by Powers of Ten.

The Center of the universe is wherever I am, man!

Actually, when I was teaching, one of the first things I tried to show was scale, its VERY hard to accurately display.   Also I found this piece of cool science on the subject of size:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=015cnqMt2i8
-Ed

I personally believe different dimensional parallel universes exist on top of one another and sometimes things from one cross over into the other briefly - I think this is where UFOs come from as well as perhaps some ghosts, fairies, mythical creatures and other unexplained phenomena. I also think time somethings interacts with the past travelling into the future and the present, at least on a ghostly residence level. Of course, I could be crazy but yeah I kind of believe that.

Stephen King includes this idea as a throwaway in one of the chapters of The Gunslinger. No idea if he kept on with it for the rest of the series, since that's the only book I read.

The universe becomes so tantalizingly strange at the points where it ceases to be observable (by present means), whether it be on the micro or macro level. There are billions being spent on this worldwide, and when a breakthrough is made it literally transforms the world. The fact that we are communicating through a screen and keyboard is just one example.

I don't know enough about the universe to speak on a macro scale, but I am a chemist, so I know a bit more about the micro level. A bit more to get me by, but I'm not a physicist (Lord, I wish I was), so this is still a bit cursory.

When you get down to the truly sub-atomic world, things get really weird. Just as a taste before you get there, electrons do not orbit the nucleus in the same way that planets orbit a sun. In fact, there's no really good way to know where an electron is at any given time. They're chaotic, and the best way that scientists have found to model them is to predict the probability of where they will be at any given time. They call these clouds of probability "orbitals." Here's what some of them look like:

(http://chemlinks.beloit.edu/Stars/images/orbitals.jpg)

That's the geometry given to us by intense mathematical study. "It's only a model." Science has reached this point by throwing out all the data points that are meaningless for that specific level of study. That's how physics equations are discovered. It's also the level I have I spent most of time studying.

But that's still the atomic level. Probably the greatest discovery of the early 20th century was to discover that the universe does not seem to be infinitely "analogue." Once you get down to a certain level, the universe provides energy in "chunks." That is, energy levels of certain particles is either at one energy level or at the next. Picture it like a staircase. The energy of an electron is either at step one or step two. There is no in between, it's either at one step or the next. That's what scientists mean by "quantum physics." The universe comes in discrete packets, more digital than analogue.

Once again, still the atomic level. Go beneath that and things just get stranger and stranger (part of the charm). In fact, things get so strange that the only way people can talk to each other about it is through mathematics. The Coen brothers used this to great effect in their recent movie A Serious Man.

"You understand the dead cat? But... you... you can't really understand the physics without understanding the math. The math tells how it really works. That's the real thing; the stories I give you in class are just illustrative; they're like, fables, say, to help give you a picture. An imperfect model. I mean - even I don't understand the dead cat. The math is how it really works."

Well, sorry for the lecture.

What I meant to say is that science and personal philosophy (or religion) are not separate, they are part and parcel of the same thing, an attempt to understand the world/universe. Science often seems harsh because it demands rigor, but here's the dirty secret of science: It is open to everybody. It may often seem dogmatic, but it isn't, not really. Everything is up for discussion, and the arguments can be just as petty as any soap opera. But results, results matter.

I apologize, all of that was pretty tangential to your original post. I agree with you in heart. "To Infinity and Beyond!"

I always thought the idea of universes in atoms was undeniable.
But it dosn't have to collide with the philospy of those that believe in a God....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp3iHjGBfT4

I think that's where Scott went.  :smile:

I don't believe in infinity.

Mofo,

Why in the hell are you apologizing? That was just the kind of thing I was looking for.

A couple of points I like particular:


Thank you for clarifying that. I wasn't trying to suggest that, really. That is, I wasn't really trying to suggest the idea that our solar system or galaxy are a subatomic particle inside, say, a hydrogen atom on a much larger scale, I was more just trying to simplify the concept. I believe you when you say that things get really strange at the subatomic level. I would say not so much strange as outside our level of understanding. It is a different existence. I am sure that in the other direction, on the grander scale, things get equally strange, or different than our own, once one gets to that next level in either direction that you speak of here:


I do understand this on a basic level. The human mind tends to view the universe in the analog context, which is understandable. However, I've always kind of seen things on a "level" perspective. Once one gets below or above a certain point in perspective, one is no longer on the level they were before. As far as their perspective is concerned, the other level might as well not exist.

Perhaps my favorite part of your post:


I've always thought that. I have a very spiritual view of the cosmos. There is just too much order for my mind to accept "accident." Whatever direction one goes, one cannot escape the order of the universe. Neither order nor chaos can be absolutely proven, but matter follows rules and patterns, and so there is at least obervable order. In my personal opinion, I don't even believe in chaos. I don't think it exists. That which appears to be chaos, I believe, is simply a part of something bigger that we are simply not at the "level" of perspective to be able to predict it's behavior, to "see it." Mathematics becomes the only language that can convey the meaning, as you so eloquently put it. And, if these phenomena are fitting into mathematical equations, then there is order, even if a certain level of unpredictability exists.

Anyway, Mofo, thanks for your post.

Here's something that might interest you guys.  It's called The Scale of the Universe.  It's a game where you can zoom in (or out) on everything from a normal sized human, to sub atomic particles, and out to farthest reaches of the known universe.  Dunno how accurate it is, but it's really fascinating to look at.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/525347 (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/525347)

Just a reflex when I reach the Professor Barney stage. This old-timer does tend to ramble on.

Here's my pet theory. The weirdness of the sub-atomic world, bizarre as it seems to us, is still what reality is built upon. I call it "quantum foam." Who knows what it is? Matter is energy, and nobody knows what energy is.

So imagine that there is just a sea of quantum foam. Even in this uneventful reality, imagine that there is still random movement. In our present reality, random movement is a constant. It's called "Brownian motion." Now this sea of quantum foam is infinite. It is entirely possible that this sea of energy will eventually coalesce into a random happenstance of concentrated energy. This is infinity, all manner of things could happen. So, by happenstance, energy coalesces into a focal point and then explodes into a temporary focal point of energy.

This is what we know as the "Big Bang." This high energy accident is the universe we currently live in. A momentary blip in a sea of what is. And in the entirety of this confluence of energy, we find ourselves on a planet that supports life. One so promising that it can support forms of life that are able to wonder about themselves and the universe.

Still, that doesn't answer the original question. Why is there something rather than nothing? Even if my goofy theory is right, why does the "quantum foam" exist at all?

Why is there something rather than nothing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GDC3u8k02c

Do you believe space is finite, or cyclical?

I'm not sure the two are mutually exclusive.  I believe there's a finite amount of matter, therefore, a finite space to house it. 

I think the ability to comprehend infinity is a function of the way our brains work, rather than a description of the way things really are.  If you accept the idea of the infinite divisibility of space, for example, you run into a paradox (you can't ever move from point A to point B because first you have to go 1/2 of the way to B, but before that you have to go 1/4 of the distance to B, and so on).  Reality doesn't work that way.  If you assume infinity is just a concept rather than a description of the way things are the paradox goes away.

at

Therein lies the rub. Present understanding forces us to contemplate, and thus develop beliefs. I do believe in infinity, while you do not, and we both know the probability of us knowing for sure. I do accept that infinity itself allows for the possibility of and endless cycle, as houck suggested. I did intend for this to be a thought-provoking discussion, and thus far it has not proven otherwise. Thanks for the input, Rev.