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On this day in 1836, the Republic of Texas declared its independence from Mexico. :cheers:
Four days later, all the defenders of the Alamo were killed in an all-out assault by Santa Anna's well trained Mexican soldiers - at the cost of about 1/3 of the attacking force of some 2000 men.
Over the next month, Mexican troops defeated and destroyed every Texian force they found in the field.  The Anglo colonists of Texas scrambled for the U.S. border in a panicked stampede called the Runaway Scrape.  Finally, Santa Anna separated himself from the main body of the Mexican army in an attempt to capture the interim Government of Texas - and was in turn, attacked, defeated, and captured by the last Texian army still in the field.  That was at the battle of San Jacinto, April 21, 1836.   Santa Anna, under threat of hanging, signed away all Mexican rights to Texas, and the Lone Star Republic governed Texas for the next 9 years.


I teach 7th grade Texas History last period every day of the year.  All year long, I've had to endure as the little darlings come in all sugared up and hyper because some other class had a party to celebrate this or that.
Today, due to a scheduling flip, I had them FIRST period.   And we celebrated Texas Independence Day with cupcakes, cookies, and Mountain Dew.  REVENGE IS SWEET! :teddyr: :teddyr: :teddyr:

"...under threat of hanging..."  :bluesad:

Well, considering that he had ordered the cold blooded executions of 400 Texian prisoners a week AFTER they surrendered at Goliad, I'd say old Santa Anna was darned lucky that the threat was as far as it got when the Texians captured him three weeks later!

The early nineteenth century was a pretty rough era all around!

So, what you're saying is that Santa Anna was NOT hung?

That strengthens my theory about why men go to war.

 :teddyr:

Sorry I wasn't online to help you celebrate such a great day,dear indy.....but Happy Independance Day,Texas!!!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JFUsMEyrxeo/Sa4dl0nCuyI/AAAAAAAADgE/8EVpM03gFzA/s400/state+flag+of+texas.jpg)

Our border? I do believe it belonged to the Mexicans first. And the Apaches. We are on the level of Nazi Germany when it comes to our so called "taming" of the west. It's a shameful thing-and being a school teacher-you should know that. I love ya Indy-but Dam! I dont celebrate genocide.

I don't think anybody is asking you to celebrate genocide. The American expansion west carries it's share of tumult, to be sure. If we're talking about native Americans here, what would have given the Mexicans more claim to the land than Americans? In my view, the ONLY view to take is that of the natives. Manifest Destiny is a tricky concept. It was the 19th Century zeitgeist, the climate of a country very much concerned, for better or worse, with OPPORTUNITY. Expansion was the consequence of Manifest Destiny, and they were acting from a moral ideal, and that expansion was considered a responsibility, since occupation of the whole continent was inevitable, and the more of the New World governed by American ideals of liberty the better.

It was what it was. On one hand I understand it, because if we know one thing it's that occupation of those lands WAS inevitable by someone, and the natives were going to be on the losing end of it regardless. So, which is a better occupation, Mexico or the U.S.? It's a fair question.

I've gone back and forth on this before - the treatment of the Native Americans was NOT cool.  However, when you have a technologically stagnant Stone Age society sharing a border with an emerging early industrial power, then the Stone Age folks always loose, whether the newcomers are English, Spanish, French, or Dutch.  That being said, the area of Texas fought over by Texas and Mexico in 1836 was largely devoid of Indians long before the first Anglos set foot in Texas - smallpox had pretty well destroyed them.  You had the emigrant Cherokee coming into East Texas, and the Comanche and Apache out west on land that neither Mexico nor Texians had any particular interest in.

Horse s**t. Geronimo fought his ass off for his people. To the very end. We f**kED him. There is no-NO escuse for what we did to the Indian Nations. We-the American Goverment--robbed,stole-raped-killed. There is no getting around that.. Dammit-my wife Tara Sue was Chippawa-her Ma was 100% american. f**k revisionost history. The People are the real true Americans.

I don't deny any of what you said.  But I stick by what I said.  It wouldn't matter whether America was discovered and colonized by Spain, England, Germany, Russia, or any other developing nations.  When two people groups are separated by that wide a gap in technology and general cultural incompatibility, the more primitive culture is going to be destroyed. It's not pretty, it's not right, but it's history.

And think about it - if the Native tribes had kept control of the continent, with no outside interference, I seriously doubt they would have invented computers, or the internet, or bad movies.

So what would we have to talk about?


PS I am part Cherokee and part Scots Irish.  So I am constantly at war with myself, unless an Englishman gets near!

So it makes it right? What we did? Just because we did it first?
Dam-thats sick thinking.
Nazis were good at wiping out people that didnt conform either. So the People dont conform-kill them. f**k that. It was dam evil.

Hey, RC, I understand what you're saying. I think Indy understands too. I also understand that you have a personal stake in this. My ex-wife was 100% Apache, so I understand having that personal stake. My wife is from Ireland and grew up surrounded by a culture that despised the English for oppressing them for hundreds of years. I get it.

But if you step back and remove that element of it, you have to admit that cannonizing the native Americans is not exactly the right thing to do either. There was all kinds of tribal warfare in the Americas. Look at the Aztecs and Mayans and what they did in endeavors of conquest. The Aztecs engaged in their own forms of genocide. It doesn't make it right, but Indy's point that it's history is a valid one to consider. Manifest Destiny was a part of the spirit of the founders, and mistakes were made.

I still say, however, that whether it was the U.S. or Mexico, the land was being expanded upon and occupied. Much of the motivation was in the form of competition with Mexico, not a specific effort to wipe out native Americans. So, I ask as I did before, and I'm genuinely curious for your response, do you think Texas would have been better occupied by Mexico or the U.S.?

Horses**t.
I dont buy any  of the " making yerself good" lies. We killed them.  A fact is a fact. There aint no whitewashing that. It was murder-and we were guilty.Dam it ! Wounded Knee was a massacre.WHY? That was right? DAM!  Dam it all. It was evil..
Im sure most killers have a reason for what they did as well. Dead is dead. Tell your escuses to the dead.

RC, buddy, I think you are getting yourself overly worked up.
The entire history of mankind is a history of warfare, conquest, and killing.  All nations do it, all races do it, and all languages have words for it. 
  I guess my point is simply this: every nation has done some evil and some good.  Some have done more of one than the other.  America has done some pretty bad things.  We have also done some pretty magnificent things.  Other nations have done more harm and less good, and a few others more good and less harm.  But every nation on earth has done some evil.  Native American tribes made war on one another, sacrificed one another to their gods, and (more often than any of their descendants care to admit) even ate one another.
  I certainly understand your anger over the treatment of Native Americans, but as you said, killing is killing.  All of humanity is guilty of it.  Focusing your rage on the U.S. to the exclusion of all others seems . . . I dunno.  Odd.

But yer still my bud! :cheers:

Yer right Indy. I do dont discrimanate, I hate all.
 
That means we all are crazy-and were all innocent-right?


 (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l79/RCMerchant/tumblr_m00qzaVBqL1qawlwvo1_500.gif)

Every thing we do-every thing we confess to belive in-is just a dance.

 Lets dance. I love you,Indy-I love you all.Lets f**kin dance,


(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l79/RCMerchant/tumblr_m00qzaVBqL1qawlwvo1_500.gif)

Great idea!
I'll turn on Rebecca Black's FRIDAY and we can all jam together!

     We are on the level of Nazi Germany? Genocide? In what revisionist masturbatory fantasy did this come from?

     FTR, I share Amerindian genes with a lot of folks; my ancestors drove the boat, were cargo in the boat, and met the boat.

     Were there injustices done? Of course. You seem to want to condemn an entire nation for what was done , indeed, was done everywhere.

     There's an old, dirty joke whose punchline goes, "It's your turn in the barrel". Everbody, as a culture, has been cornholed by somebody else....sad, but true. What possible good would come out of waving the bloody shirt NOW?

       

Actually, The  Spanish/Portugese who conquered  most of this  hempishere, and sent most of the slave trade, decimated most of the civilisations in what is  now  Mexico, Central, South America and the Carribbean, did rise to the level  of Nazi Germany and the Communist  Genocide of  the  tens of  millions in what is  Russia and  China today.  The fact of the matter is  'Mexicans' were  what was  left of the brutal empire  of Aztec and Mayans that routinely  sarcificed  people  long before Cortez and Balboa set foot into this hemisphere. So, Yes, I do celebrate  Texas independence  from the genocidal  Spanish/Mexcian and the  murderous  Aztec/Mayan empire  they  replaced.

Oh Dear. This thread took a direction that was unfortunate. I don't see how a thread wishing people a happy state holiday turned into such a socio-political s**tstorm.

Well, One  man's  hero is  another  man's  killer.  :twirl:  BTW, I'm new here, how does one  add an avatar?

Welcome aboard!

*Click on Profile at the top of the message boards.
*Click on Forum Profile Information on the left of the screen.

You can upload an image there, create a signature line if you want, etc.

Thanks, but, it appears I need more posts to change it? :bluesad:

Oh, yeah, forgot about that. I don't think it's very much though. I want to say it's in the neighborhood of 20 posts? Just keep posting. I know you'll be there pretty quick.

     Great point, Frank; glad ya made it, good to see ya here.

Welcome,Frank....so good to see you here. :wink:

As a fellow historian, I've often wanted to ask you how accurate the John Wayne film The Alamo is. It always makes me smile that you have Lawrence Harvey, a Lithuanian born, South African raised, England educated guy playing a Texan.  :teddyr:

John Wayne's movie is horrifically inaccurate.  They get everything from the weapons to the time of day for the attack to the location of San Antonio wrong.

The 2005 Dreamworks THE ALAMO with Jason Patrick and Billy Bob Thornton is the most accurate Alamo movie ever made - and it tanked at the box office.  But I still love it!

Well, most Americands were born elsewhere as are most Canadians.  The Alamo is a  great film cause it highlights heroism, not historucal accuracy.

Absolutely....check that one out,Trevor. :wink:

Oh, the John Wayne piece was a great movie - don't get me wrong.  I really enjoyed it.  But as a re-creation of history, it's pretty awful.

Well, at  Least it's  about American heroism, unlike  the trash that passes  for  'history' these days in movies, like  'JFK.' 

I watched that movie several times while I was in college.  At that time I was a pretty hard core conspiracy buff, and while I recognized that much of it was Oliver Stone's own paranoid fantasy, he did weave in elements from most of the major theories, and forced the government to declassify a ton of documents about the assassination - which, incidentally, put quite a few of those conspiracy theories to rest for good.  Nowadays I fall into the "I just don't know" camp regarding JFK.

But there is some pretty good history coming out of Hollywood lately.  The Alamo film I mentioned is excellent and highly accurate, and Spielberg's AMISTAD is a magnificent telling of a little known true story during the struggle to abolish slavery.   FROST/NIXON was quite accurate, and to my surprise, was not just another Hollywood slash job on old Tricky Dick - in fact, Nixon comes across as a very complex and at times, sympathetic character.  And, if you don't mind history that is a bit on the racy side, HBO's ROME and Showtime's THE TUDORS stuck to the facts more often than not, and told a great story in the process.  However, Starz' SPARTACUS is pure Hollywood sensationalism!

Wow: I still like the movie though and I like the sense of humor throughout, e.g. Davy Crockett waking Jim Bowie up with a bucket of ice cold water  :buggedout: :bouncegiggle:, Crockett and Emile Sand's confrontation and the fight with feathers, while Mr Harvey is gettin' all serious.  :teddyr:

I would like to apoligize for hijacking your thread,Indy. I was drunk and kinda emotional.
Sorry,man. I get diarehha of the mouth and constipation of the brain when I drink sometimes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_RQil_EvUQ&feature=related

Ronnie, you don't ever have to apologize to me!  We're bros, man! :cheers:

It's Ronny! WITH A "Y"!!! DAMN TEAXN HILLBILLY! I oughtta-

 :tongueout: I'm kiddin',Indy. I aint drunk...yet-  :wink:

Seriously....yeah-I did have to apoligize-I was a jerk.

They're was an episode of the Simpsons where Bart started a Teddy Roosevelt Fan Club because of a teacher who told them how cool Teddy was...I wondered...does Matt Groning know you?  :question:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToScPiaRsAE

Nah.  he probably just read Cracked.com 's article on the five most bada$$ Presidents of all time -

Teddy topped the list!

Mebbe. I still think Lincoln was the best. I needa starta thread. I will!  :thumbup:

Why is anyone apologizing, I thought we were having a friendly exchange and relevant thread  drift?  Of course, I'm new around here. :drink:

Were gonna have fun,I think.  :drink:

wasn't JFK from the 90's? like 20 years ago "these days"?

That's "old fart syndrome" kicking in. Anything made since you got out of high school becomes "these days"!

True, but, I'm only picking the last one I actually paid to see. Of course, These days, as one gets older begins to be measured  in decades. :smile:

I hope so, differences are what makes life intertesting and productive.  BTW, I dig the Lugosi sign 'GIF.' I am a huge classic Horror fan and have a few Forry Ackerman/Famous Monsters  stories  i will get to here. One includes  Forry letting me wear an original Lugosi Dracula  ring actually worn/used in the original Dracula, 1931. Of course, There are also some stories related to my interests in Goth scene at one time and how I went from an Anarchist  to a  Republican and just being disgusted. I'm sure we'll get to a lot here. :cheers: