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Mine is Lincoln.

He grew up in poverty. Became the leader of one of the most savage countries in on of the most savage times we had. And He not only kept his head-he kept his heart.

Ok...Who's yours?

(http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac110/MJFitch_bucket/Abraham-Lincoln-1865.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Bill_Clinton.jpg/220px-Bill_Clinton.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/FDR_in_1933.jpg/509px-FDR_in_1933.jpg)

(http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/3tj_header_sm.jpg?1249507563)

Not entirely for his achievements as President (though the Louisiana Purchase was kinda cool).

Lincoln tops my list too, RC.  He was not just the greatest President but perhaps the greatest man America has ever produced.  If you have never read it, Doris Kearnes Goodwin's TEAM OF RIVALS is my favorite Lincoln book.

Close second is Theodore Roosevelt.  Maybe not the greatest President, but hands down the coolest.  He got shot in the chest at point blank range during the 1912 campaign, and still insisted on delivering his hour long speech before seeking medical attention, and when he lost that election he decided it might be fun to take an expedition and explore an 800 mile long, completely uncharted tributary of the Amazon.  He was a MAN through and through.

In my own lifetime, Reagan, hands down.  A man of ideas that were clear and simple, but timeless and true.  When I get totally disgusted with the politics of today, I go listen to his speeches and come out feeling better about the world.

Yer joking,right?

I like the reforms he made,but damn. He couldn-t keep his dick in his pants. I hate people like that. He lied to his own wife.He don't lie to YOU? Damn.


I came very close to saying FDR.

Indy-Reagan-? Really? He did more to make the poor people poor -and his "trickle down" theory was s**t. I liked Nixon better than Reagan-Reagan was an actor-a puppet for others-he was good at that. At least Nixon was trying to do s**t...Reagan did it by proxy. Somebody shoulda nominated Kissinger. That man had powers to convince folks.

Speaking of Richard Nixon-you would think I would hate him.

I don't. Nixon f**ked up-big time with Watergate. But Nixon also got us outta Vietnam,started talks with China too. He was doing the best he could in very hard times. Believe it or not-I like Nixon.

All polititions are sneaky-its the name of the game. Why folks point out Nixon is because he was caught doing it.

And in a weird,Twilight Zone way-he was right-when the President does it-its not illegal-right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvyDn1TPr8

THAT kinda s**t f**ked him up. And it continues-and has been going on for YEARS with people in power. But it is a fact. They can do it-we cant.
Democrat-Republican-big money nowadays wins.  Aint no Lincolns.

^^^
Your post reminded of this clip. It's um, pretty fasinating.

TivVcfSBVSM

^^^ All people have hidden agendas.All People have prejeduce. I dont care who you are. Turning your personal predjudices into law against others-thats damn evil. And the majority of politicitons know that. But your gonna get nut jobs with charisma-fast talkin personalities like Hitler who appeal to the majority. But the minorty have just as many-or should-have the same rights as everyone else. Not usually the case.
Nixon did some good things as president...but he had a secret agenda,I'm sure. 

Ronnie:  I think you sell Reagan a bit short.  You and I are close to the same age, and I can remember when Carter was President thinking that America was toast.  Then Reagan came along and gave us something to believe in again - and, in most parts of the country, the economy improved drastically.  22 million jobs created in a very short period of time!  Some areas simply did not recover, and sadly, Michigan has been in a slump as long as I can remember.  As far as Reagonomics goes, folks still argue about it and I don't want to argue with you.   But Reagan is a hero to me, pure and simple.

You make a good point about Nixon.  He was a deeply flawed man, but a great one in many ways.  It's a shame he let his own paranoia destroy him, for few Presidents could ever match his record of achievement.  Did you know he is the only American in history, besides FDR, to be nominated for national office FIVE times?

  BTW, a little known President that I greatly admire is Grover Cleveland. He was a big, fat, boring, honest man in an age of unparalleled corruption.  Throughout his entire public life, I've never found a single indication that he ever took a dishonest or self-serving position!  When he was nominated for President, his immediate reaction was to wonder aloud what dreadful condition the country was in that anyone would think HE was the best man for the job!  That kind of humility does not exist in politics anymore.

Nixon was remarkably moderate for a Republican president. I've never had any major problems with him.

I understand the fascination and appreciation of Reagan, he was a hell of a speaker and inspiring, a great leader, at least in a figurehead kind of way. I have big problems with some of the dangerous corporatist precedents his two administrations gave us, however.

Ultimately it's kind of difficult to fight anybody on Lincoln. I would say he was one of the finest Americans ever produced. I can't say the finest as Indy does, only because I don't believe ANY politician was the finest American ever produced. I reserve those kinds of honors for people like Henry Ford or Thomas Edison, never a politician.

I'm also very fond of Jefferson, mostly for the spirit he represented.

Near the top of my list would also be Eisenhower. His parting words about the military industrial complex were prophetic. It's a shame nobody listened to him.

I wouldn't say I have a single favorite.

Indy-Reagan was an actor-I just wish I knew which big money coached him into orfice-oops-I mean office.
The majority of his policies-the so called "trickle down" econinomics-had a devastating effect on Michigan. Many jobs here have been "outsoursed" to China thanks to policies as that. Many are p**se about the GM bailout Obama gave-I'm not. Michigan would have died without it. We still have one of the highest unemployment rates in America. But-dam it-we ARE trying. But know one wants to help us.

Flick-dam. Henry Ford? He did business with the Nazis for the all mighty dollar. f**k him.

Ronnie - I'll just say that, if I lived in Michigan, my opinion might be different.
You need to get yerself down here to Texas where we still have jobs, my friend!

Overall, Good Ole George Washington, Revolutionary and  First President.


In my lifetime, Ronald Reagan, sent the Soviet Union toppling and  went after the Commies  worldwide. Millions of jobs created  while he was in  office and with a smile and nod, sent fear through the hearts of  Americas  enemies, externally and internally, he was  was great, wish I could vote for him again.

Is that true? Then why does the company I work for employ 90% workers from Mexico and Texas? I swear to any god there may be-THAT is true. And home grown Michiganders around me are on welfare. My brother went to my job-he's living with me-asked for an application-he was turned down. 2 f**king days later they hired a whole family of Mexicans.
 
Most factories -many in the agricultural and food processing business-take advantage of hiring Mexicans-because they will work for s**t wages. And they own big houses in Mexico. And drive nice trucks. I live in subsidized housing-my neighborbors are Mexicans- got nice houses ,bought with grants for NOT being from Michigan. And they take the whole winter off-to take vacations in Texas. Dam. I got a garnish on my wages-I take home 260 dollars a week-I support me,my son,and my brother. I go to the food pantry once a month. The only reason I'm typing is because I paid my phone internet bill when I got my taxes back. I'll be gone for a while real soon.

Indy-I love ya man-I wish I could move to Texas. I wish I could move to anywhere. I hate this place.

Whoh! Reagan didnt topple Russia. It  fell in on itself. Sure he sent fear-so do most idiots in high places.

none of them. least favorite: FDR, Lincoln, Wilson.

We have more in common then you think.  I HATE polititions. Big money swarmy salesmen and liars.

Whoa is  right. The Soviet Union, not  Russia,  the Communist  slave system went under cause it couldn't keep  pace with the escalation of weapons and and  groups  supported  by Reagan, Thatcher and others who were  opposed  at the time by many  the  Left.  The 'idiots' in my view were the opposition, some of the same people today who don't understand the Islamic Fascist threat.

Who is the "Left"? Is that kinda some secret society ?

I wondered when Lester was going to chime in with his usual "I love America but hate our government" shtick!

Think about this - if the Soviet Empire was gonna crumble anyway, why didn't it do so when Carter, or Ford, or Johnson was in office?

Think back to 1979 - the Soviets were large and in charge and America was on the decline. Ten years later they were bankrupt and their evil, repressive system was falling apart!  What happened?

REAGAN!!!!!


One other thing, Ronnie - a good part of the responsibility for Michigan's collapse can be laid at the feet of the auto worker's unions.  They made it so expensive to build cars there that all the smart money went elsewhere.  Although their power has crumbled greatly, they are still dead set opposed to major reforms that would bring jobs back to the Rust Belt.

 One-Lester didnt say anything-he said what his favorite Presidents were. Thats all.
  Two- I'm very anti Union,Indy.  I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican. I'm not anything. 
And I will always be nothing. Because "no sense makes sense".  And if you can place that quote-you get a Marvel No Prize! (Sure it wont gain me no points though!  :bouncegiggle:)


(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l79/RCMerchant/No-Prize_VDOrazio.jpg)

Whatever. That means very little. Henry Ford was not the only American to did business with, or dealt with Nazi Germany before WWII. The evil of the Nazi Party was not readily apparent to most Americans and business men before U.S. involvement in WWII. Henry Ford did business with whoever he could have a profitable relationship with. Henry Ford was opposed to U.S. entry into both WWI and WWII. He was a business man who wanted to simply do business, and held the oldguard business opinion that free trade was the way wars were avoided. We have the benefit of hindsight to see that dealing with Nazi Germany in the 1930 was a bad thing. At the time, very few people thought anything of it. You seem to have this image of Henry Ford as some sort of Nazi conspirator.

Yes, I will retain my appreciation of Henry Ford. He was a great American, and did more for the advancement of our productive capacity than most other Americans before or since.

The Soviets, under Stalin, signed a pact that freed the Nazis to start their  war.

The Nazis, atrocities aside if one can do it for a  second, were  very high tech for their times. Of course, The hatred  for one  group of people, the Jews, stopped  them from getting  someone  called  Albert Einstein. :wink:

Yeh, and I wonder how many powerful men haven't kept their dicks in their pants and lied to their wives.

Your memory is shot... who would you expect Indiana to choose as his favorite from his own lifetime? 

(http://www.wyomingexpeditions.com/_wizardimages/teddy-roosevelt.jpg)

He's my all time favorite. He also...

1.Created 53 National Wildlife Refuges

2.Established the US Forestry Service and 42 million acres of National Forests

3.Created 5 National Parks and 18 National monuments

This was a seriously cool man!

    Yes, I've heard all about his indescretions, and I don't celebrate them, but I remember him telling ALL of us that we could strive to be great, and honorable....

     I believed him; may the dark hand of night fall upon those who took him down.

(http://www.juancole.com/images/2012/02/jfk.jpg)

Kennedy's personal shortcomings will probably keep him off my top list for all time, but he did have the power to inspire people - and he died at the perfect time to become an icon.

By the way, have you read 11/22/63 by Stephen King?  It's a great "what if" story.

Incidentally, I wasn't really trying to trash Lester.  It's just that he and I had a very lengthy exchange on this very topic when I started a similar thread a couple of years back.  He essentially seems to dislike the Presidency itself - or at least, the direction it has taken since, say, 1789 or so.  I don't think I misrepresented his position by much, if at all!

RC - thanks for starting this thread.  It's FUN!

Indi- there were other communist governments around the world that had either fallen earlier or fell later. the point is when people embrace those kinds of policies they fail.  I sometimes wonder if the USSR could have made it a little longer if they zigged instead of zagged. like if they had avoided going into Afghanistan for example.  


I will say this though re: the presidency: Reagan-Bush 1- and Clinton were all by and large self made men with a fair amount of common sense and practical thinking. The liberals didn't like Reagan, the conservatives definately didn't like Clinton and no one remembers much of Bush 1 but they did a fairly good job of running things based on

1. no prolonged military conflicts

2. no massive regulation or weird corporatized "deregulation" that messed up the economy and
3. didn't do weird spying on Americans and stuff like that.

relative to the years before and after them especially they were excellent leaders.  

The book is sitting at home, but I haven't had the chance to crack it yet.

Indy. You can try and trivialize lester's views by calling it "shtick" if you like. I happen to agree with him on some fundamental levels. I think his last post on this thread was pretty mature and valid.

As for Reagan, to me he was an outstanding figurehead. I will never be able to reconcile, however, some of the corporatist practices his administrations ushered in. The S & L debacle was a travesty that, in my opinion, does not get nearly enough attention as the enormous mistake, and example of corporatist corruption, that it was. As for Reaganomics, it's not difficult to take credit for an economic upturn that was following a horrible recession. The economy had nowhere to go but up. Reaganomics helped stimulate some things, but how much credit can you give to him for a recovery that was a natural part of the boom/bust cycle? He also gets credit as a "deregulation" president. Some of the deregulation he gets credit for was either already underway or had already happened prior to his first administration, by the dreaded Jimmy Carter, no less.

Reagan was a great figurehead. I still have major problems with some aspects of his two terms, however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gniXiFHGHS8

Touche!

Flick, Lester and I have been butting heads on here for YEARS over this topic.  I like teasing him, but  we have developed some respect for each other over time.  I was jerking his chain and I hope he (and you) know that.

I don't agree with your views (or his) when it comes to isolationism versus interventionism, or support of Israel, but I do understand where both of you are coming from.

No offense was intended, and I hope none taken.

I do have a problem with the description of Reagan as a "figurehead," though.  I think he was far smarter and tougher than most people realize, and that title makes him sound like a puppet.

While I do believe that big corporations need a certain amount of watching, I have said many times over - given a choice between trusting big government or big business, I will take big business every single time.  They just want my money; big government takes away my freedom.

and here I was taught that it was this guy:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/RIAN_archive_850809_General_Secretary_of_the_CPSU_CC_M._Gorbachev.jpg/553px-RIAN_archive_850809_General_Secretary_of_the_CPSU_CC_M._Gorbachev.jpg)
so was I taught the wrong history? :hatred:

my fav. president is:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Dwight_D._Eisenhower%2C_official_Presidential_portrait.jpg/469px-Dwight_D._Eisenhower%2C_official_Presidential_portrait.jpg)

I have kind of a different view of history.  I see artists and entrepenours and people like that as the heroes and politcians as parasites. I'm not impressed with people throwing around great amounts of coercive power and don't think it's interesting.

Kennedy
Lincoln
Clinton

I like these three.

1. George Washington

Close Second, for a WHOLE HEAP of reasons...


Theodore Rooseveldt.

In our lifetimes...Reagan hands down.

I remember the Vietnam era and the legacy...Nixon, Ford, Carter.  I remember how things changed when Reagan was elected.

And. It. Was. Good.

For EVERYBODY in this country.  

Reagan did not do this single handed, but our poor are far wealthier than most of the rest of the world's population.  That simple fact cannot be discounted, and a good deal of that wealth was created during the 80's.

No one can deny that the US was better after Reagan than we were before he took office.  I do find it interesting in many such discussions I've heard and read in recent years that most of the people speaking out against Reagan were not even alive during the 70's and 80's.

And while I don't particularly like him or admire him across the board, I will always hold something of respect for Truman for presiding during a very tough time...and making some VERY tough decisions.

Truman is one of these people whom I might have disagreed with politically, but I held a ton of respect for nonetheless because of his inherent honesty and decency.  He never forgot his Midwest roots, and he was not one to lie or manipulate people.  America is very, very fortunate that he stepped into office at the end of World War II.

BTW, El Toro - I was around for the entire decade of the 1980's, and spent four years of it in the Pacific playing naval tag with the Soviets.  Had it not been for Reagan, I think there is a very good chance Gorbachev would never have come to power.  He does deserve credit for recognizing the writing on the wall, as far as the Soviet empire was concerned - but some of the handwriting there was Reagan's.  His "Second Cold War" brought the Soviets to their knees because they could not keep up with the production of a newly motivated and revitalized America.

I highly recommend a book called THE CRUSADER: Ronald Reagan and the Fall of Communism.  Reagan's hatred of the communist system wasn't a political position he took to win elections.  It came from his heart, and it started long before he entered politics.  Whether you love or despise the Gipper, the book is well researched and very readable.

JFK

The space race was for all mankind. (and to beat those pesky soviets).
Cant get much better than a prez that reaches for the final frontier.  :thumbup:

I have to go with Reagan.  Not only for his historic changes (like pressing for the fall of the Berlin Wall) but because of the way the economy thrived in the better part of the '80s.  Those days are long gone now.. :(

Figurehead can be taken as a negative if you want to, but I did not mean it that way. Henry Ford was a figurehead during the tale end of his life. That doesn't mean his presence wasn't meaningful or resilient.

Perhaps you don't know what I'm getting at about corporatism. Corporatism is nearly the antithesis of deregulated capitalism. I'm not blaming business for the S & L scandal. I'm blaming the policy set in place by Reagan that allowed investors to protect their investments with government trusts, THE TAXPAYERS MONEY, allowing them to make any investment they chose, no matter how risky, with no consequences. How in the hell is THAT capitalism? That is what corporatism: business and government in bed together, forming a corrupt bond that is detrimental to the mechanisms of capitalism.

And, of course, my main point I still stand by. Again, I ask, how much credit for the recovery do you give to Reagan? I say he was partially, if not mostly, there to take credit for something that was happening anyway. How much credit do you give to him for deregulation that was already happening before he took office? I'm not faulting you for admiring Reagan, he was a man to be admired. So was Kennedy. I still don't approve of many of the decisions of either.

Fair enough.  I wasn't sure what you meant by "figurehead."

Thinking personally rather than politically my vote goes to:

Calvin Coolidge

One of my favorite bits of Coolidge trivia is: After learning of his ascendancy to President on the death of Warren Harding in 1923, Coolidge was sworn in by his father, a justice of the peace, and promptly went back to bed.

Coolidge slept about 14 hours a day during his term of office.  When he died of a heart attack in 1934, Alice Roosevelt Longworth said: "How can they tell?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvy0wRLD5s8

Also...I like Truman as well.

WOMAN AT STATE DIINER: Mr. President, I bet someone I could get you to say at least three words to me.

COOLIDGE: You loose.

how could I also forget the first Black US President?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/David_Palmer.jpg)

I think he is taller, slimmer, and has bigger ears than the guy in the picture! LOL

hard to believe a guy could go from POTUS to selling life insurance or something

Don't forget he was also a VooDoo doing long ball hitter in the Majors, too.   :teddyr:

Taft...he had to have a special bathtub installed. 
-Ed