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Movies => Press Releases and Film News => Topic started by: Nakuyabi on April 28, 2012, 11:57:59 AM



Title: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Nakuyabi on April 28, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
Quote
As many as 100 high school students walked out of a national journalism conference after an anti-bullying speaker began cursing, attacked the Bible and reportedly called those who refused to listen to his rant “pansy assed.” ([url]http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/anti-bullying-speaker-curses-mocks-christian-teens.html[/url])

The speaker was Dan Savage, founder of the “It Gets Better” project, an anti-bullying campaign that has reached more than 40 million viewers with contributors ranging from President Obama to Hollywood stars. Savage also writes a sex advice column called “Savage Love.”

Savage, and his husband, were also guests at the White House for President Obama’s 2011 LGBT Pride Month reception. He was also invited to a White House anti-bullying conference.

Savage was supposed to be delivering a speech about anti-bullying at the National High School Journalism Conference sponsored by the Journalism Education Association and the National Scholastic Press Association. But it turned into an episode of Christian-bashing.

Rick Tuttle, the journalism advisor for Sutter Union High School in California, was among several thousand people in the audience. He said they thought the speech was one thing – but it turned into something else.

“I thought this would be about anti-bullying,” Tuttle told Fox news. “It turned into a pointed attack on Christian beliefs.”

Tuttle said a number of his students were offended by Savage’s remarks – and some decided to leave the auditorium.

“It became hostile,” he said. “It felt hostile as we were sitting in the audience – especially towards Christians who espouse beliefs that he was literally taking on.”

Tuttle said the speech was laced with vulgarities and “sexual innuendo not appropriate for this age group.” At one point, he said Savage told the teenagers about how good his partner looked in a speedo.

The conservative website CitizenLink was the first to report about the controversy. They interviewed a 17-year-old girl who was one of students who walked out of the auditorium.

“The first thing he told the audience was, ‘I hope you’re all using birth control,’” she told CitizenLink. “he said there are people using the Bible as an excuse for gay bullying, because it says in Leviticus and Romans that being gay is wrong. Right after that, he said we can ignore all the (expletive deleted) in the Bible.”

As the teenagers were walking out, Tuttle said that Savage heckled them and called them pansy-assed.

“You can tell the Bible guys in the hall they can come back now because I’m done beating up the Bible,” Savage said as other students hollered and cheered. “It’s funny as someone who is on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible how pansy-assed people react when you push back.”

The executive director of the National Scholastic Press Association provided Fox News with joint statement from the Journalism Education Association that was sent to members – after a number of people complained about Savage’s remarks.

“We appreciate the level of thoughtfulness and deliberation regarding Dan Savage’s keynote address,” the NSPA wrote. “some audience members who felt hurt by his words and tone decided to leave in the middle of his speech, and to this, we want to make our point very clear: While as a journalist it’s important to be able to listen to speech that offends you, these students and advisers had simply reached their tolerance level for what they were willing to hear.”

The NSPA said they did not have a prior transcript of Savage’s speech and that wish “he had stayed more on target for the audience of teen journalists.” They also said it provided a “teachable moment” for students.

As for Savage’s attack on people of faith?

“While some of his earlier comments were so strongly worded that they shook some of our audience members, it is never the intent of JEA or NSPA to let students get hurt during their time at our conventions,” they wrote.

However, not once did the NSPA or the JEA offer any apologies to the students or faculty advisors or anyone else in attendance.

Savage did offer a sarcastic apology “if I hurt anyone’s feelings.”

“But I have a right to defend myself and to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other.”

Tuttle said that he “felt duped” by the event. “There were Christian schools who went to the conference. To have this happen was disappointing and shocking.”

The NSPA said they should have done a better job preparing schools for what to expect.

For his part, Tuttle said that he will definitely be more cautious about the speakers at future conventions.Tuttle related how Savage told students that for a number of years he was not allowed in schools. He told the students that because it’s gained national acceptance “he’s reveling in the fact that it’s basically a middle finger to all those teachers and administrators who wouldn’t let him have access to those students before.”

But for some of Tuttle’s students – they felt like the anti-bullying activist was in fact – the bully.


As ever, the politically correct fascist perverts who scream loudest against hatred, bigotry, bullying, etc. are the biggest proponents and practitioners of all those things against everyone who disagrees with their evil agenda. A "teachable moment" indeed! Today's lesson: an "anti-bullying" group is just another politically correct hate group.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: tracy on April 28, 2012, 12:28:08 PM
I despise hypocracy....and political correctness. Especially when those who feel they are the most PC are busy spouting hatred and insults. And I must say I am tired of the fact that some folks think that you must hate Christianity to be properly PC. They feel that their right to say such nonsense is far greater than your right to feel as you do,in other words,pro-Christianity. However,I am also a huge believer in everyone's right to Free Speech so I choose to simply ignore their hateful words and hope they get the turn around they so desperately need. And learn that tirades like that do not belong in a speech to children. They trust the older people to teach and guide them....what does that sort of venom teach?


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: AndyC on April 28, 2012, 01:44:44 PM
I do hate it when people feel entitled to attack and abuse others because others have done it to them. It's hardly self defense when you're an honoured guest and people are there to listen to you. And in any case, two wrongs do not make a right. If you purport to be the good guy, take the high ground and show people why you're the good guy.

I guess when this numbnuts chooses to ignore what's in the bible, that includes the bit about treating others the way you want to be treated. That seems wonderfully applicable to this exact situation.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Flick James on April 28, 2012, 01:59:30 PM
FOXNEWS. Consider the source. I know I'll receive a ration of s**t for that. I don't care. I don't disagree fundamentally with the message of the article. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly that their is a tremendous amount of un-checked hypocrisy involved. I just don't trust the agenda of whoever wrote the article because it's from FOX. The writer of the article is clearly seething with his own hatred.

There are those on this forum that insist that FOX is sort of an equalizer in the media because the majority of the media is left-leaning. It's true. The majority of the mainstream media DOES lean left. I get it. But as a result of this, FOX overcompensates by leaning so far to the right as to be incapable of objectivity. And so, because of this, and I know I'm going to hear it for this from the rather vocal rightists on the board, I can actually trust any single one of the so-called "lefty" media sources more than FOX because they don't lean so hard. I'm not saying they aren't slanted, I'm saying they are a little closer to objectivity than FOX. May I burn in Hell for saying that.

Don't get me wrong, FOX is simply one of any number of news sources I go to, but I don't trust ANY of them that much. ALL mainstream media acts as a propaganda tool for somebody. To paraphrase George Carlin, I don't believe ANYTHING the government tells me, and I don't take the press very seriously either. The fact that anybody would take FOX seriously is amusing. I don't fault anybody for taking a political position in line with FOX's agenda, and more power to them, but please don't try telling me they can be trusted to provide an objective analysis.


Personally, I would love it if FOX only leaned slightly to the right. If they did, they would probably be my newsource of choice.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: indianasmith on April 28, 2012, 09:33:59 PM
I'd probably better keep my mouth shut on this one . . . . :buggedout: :teddyr: :bouncegiggle:


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Flick James on April 29, 2012, 01:48:32 PM
I'd probably better keep my mouth shut on this one . . . . :buggedout: :teddyr: :bouncegiggle:

That's okay. I already know what you were going to say.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Jim H on April 29, 2012, 02:36:33 PM
Quote
“It became hostile,” he said. “It felt hostile as we were sitting in the audience – especially towards Christians who espouse beliefs that he was literally taking on.”

Should a gay man NOT be hostile towards those who literally believe gay men should be killed outright? 

It seems like he was overreacting to something that wasn't really there, and did come across as a bit of an ass (which, from the couple other times I've seen Savage, seems to be par for the course), but that's about all I'd say.  Tossing out insults is not the same thing as bullying. 

Also, yes, the tone/wording of this article is ridiculous.  It should be on the editorial page.

Quote
“But I have a right to defend myself and to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other.”

That drives me up the wall.  There's so much weird crap in Leviticus so many Christians just completely ignore while so strongly holding to a handful of lines out of it.  It drives me up the wall. 


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Flick James on April 29, 2012, 03:42:16 PM
There is no objectivity possible among the participants of this scenario, none whatsoever, and this most definitely includes Dan Savage. Just so we're not relying on a heavily biased source's interpretation of the event in question, here's a clip of the event itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alXxsKLVofM

So here you have a situation where Dan Savage, who has suffered real bullying at times in his life, some of it using Biblical belief as it's justification, is acting in a way that nobody will ever be able to convince him is any different than "defending himself," or "fighting back." In this way, he is unable to be objective, or treat Christian belief in an objective way. Now, and I'm sure this will convince some that I am defending his inappropriate actions in this case, Dan Savage has given presentations in which he has attempted to convince gays  that Christian family should be given a good deal of slack and understanding when coming out. In other words, there are times when he has advocated a tolerant attitude. But ultimately he will never be swayed from his belief that he is fighting back, and because of what he is, he will be embraced by the left and demonized by the right. It's a war afterall, and that's what enemies do in a war. And war, whether literal or figurative, is the primary way in which Americans process issues. The war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war on terrorism, the war on (insert issue), and I am certainly not isolating conservatives in this.

Now, of the hundred or so people that walked out, why did they walk out? Some probably felt uncomfortable, some probably simply didn't want to listen to a gay man talk. There were some walking out well before things got genuinely nasty.Now, I doubt that all of them have bullied gay people before, using the Bible as their justification. There is a good chance that the majority of them have not. Hell, there is a chance (although I doubt it) that none of them have. It is unfair that those people had to be pidgeon-holed and lambasted, and Dan Savage was most definitely acting inappropriately. I would be willing to bet it's not the first time he has let his emotions get the better of him in such a situation. Again he is certain that he is doing nothing more than fighting back, and nobody is going to convince him otherwise. Add to that the fact that he has a tremendous amount of support and cheering on his side. That f**ks with people.

I will use an analogy that I know is not perfect. But in Belfast, where my wife is from, there was once a bitter, violent struggle between the Irish and the British loyalists, both of whom relied on religious identity to justify their positions. The Irish, who retaliated against tanks in their neighborhoods and routine oppression by running guns and planting bombs, would never be convinced that they were terrorists. They were fighting back. Whatever inappropriate actions they committed were justified as acts of retaliation. The British loyalists, of course, were certain that they were justified in their treatment of the Irish. This situation is not much different. So we can take sides in the war if we want, but in doing so, we are, at least to some degree, abandoning reason and objectivity.



Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Jim H on April 29, 2012, 04:24:51 PM
After that post, Flick, I think there's nothing left to be said.

 :thumbup:


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: indianasmith on April 29, 2012, 07:25:59 PM
Very good commentary.  I guess I will have to say something after all. :teddyr:
I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.)
  No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin.  So is adultery.  So is lust.  So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags.  He just doesn't love what they do.  Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either.  All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Frank81 on April 30, 2012, 12:27:32 PM
FOX  News  is  tepid right  at best and the fact that  many can't  stand it or five  guys on radio  not controlled  by an Atlantic  Ocean of Left-wing bias  says  more  about them. But, rather  than get bogged  down on what  any person can plainly see for themselves, this  Gay  guy and his husband and whoever the hell else  thinks it's  brave to  attack Christians  do it only because  they know there won't be a violent, or any,  backlash and they'll get away with it. This has nothing to do  with 'anti' bullying, rather it is incorporating bullying, in this case, by far-left extremists who now have a home in, sadly, this  White House. The  far greater danger of say, oh, Muslim extremists who would  have executed this dude and his  'husband' will never  get a tongue lashing from him or  people like him. The seething hatred of the Left in this  country on display and at this conference is  a microcosm of what has been going on for decades  in University, media nd now the reigns of  govt. I learned  that  long ago, before  FOX News and five guys on radio  were ever on the air.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Frank81 on April 30, 2012, 12:34:35 PM
There is no objectivity possible among the participants of this scenario, none whatsoever, and this most definitely includes Dan Savage. Just so we're not relying on a heavily biased source's interpretation of the event in question, here's a clip of the event itself:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alXxsKLVofM[/url]

So here you have a situation where Dan Savage, who has suffered real bullying at times in his life, some of it using Biblical belief as it's justification, is acting in a way that nobody will ever be able to convince him is any different than "defending himself," or "fighting back." In this way, he is unable to be objective, or treat Christian belief in an objective way. Now, and I'm sure this will convince some that I am defending his inappropriate actions in this case, Dan Savage has given presentations in which he has attempted to convince gays  that Christian family should be given a good deal of slack and understanding when coming out. In other words, there are times when he has advocated a tolerant attitude. But ultimately he will never be swayed from his belief that he is fighting back, and because of what he is, he will be embraced by the left and demonized by the right. It's a war afterall, and that's what enemies do in a war. And war, whether literal or figurative, is the primary way in which Americans process issues. The war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war on terrorism, the war on (insert issue), and I am certainly not isolating conservatives in this.

Now, of the hundred or so people that walked out, why did they walk out? Some probably felt uncomfortable, some probably simply didn't want to listen to a gay man talk. There were some walking out well before things got genuinely nasty.Now, I doubt that all of them have bullied gay people before, using the Bible as their justification. There is a good chance that the majority of them have not. Hell, there is a chance (although I doubt it) that none of them have. It is unfair that those people had to be pidgeon-holed and lambasted, and Dan Savage was most definitely acting inappropriately. I would be willing to bet it's not the first time he has let his emotions get the better of him in such a situation. Again he is certain that he is doing nothing more than fighting back, and nobody is going to convince him otherwise. Add to that the fact that he has a tremendous amount of support and cheering on his side. That f**ks with people.

I will use an analogy that I know is not perfect. But in Belfast, where my wife is from, there was once a bitter, violent struggle between the Irish and the British loyalists, both of whom relied on religious identity to justify their positions. The Irish, who retaliated against tanks in their neighborhoods and routine oppression by running guns and planting bombs, would never be convinced that they were terrorists. They were fighting back. Whatever inappropriate actions they committed were justified as acts of retaliation. The British loyalists, of course, were certain that they were justified in their treatment of the Irish. This situation is not much different. So we can take sides in the war if we want, but in doing so, we are, at least to some degree, abandoning reason and objectivity.




So, Flick you think You Tube is unbiased,you do realise people can edit clips?  I will agree it's a war and the guy writting about it justifyiing this guys  attack  just picked a side.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Pacman000 on April 30, 2012, 12:36:25 PM
Bullying can be subjective.  One person may make a critical comment without any ill-will intended; the person they make the comment to thinks it's bullying.  

I'll guess that Mr. Savage thinks anyone who openly disagrees with him is a bully, and that his comments are just criticism.  :bluesad:


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Frank81 on April 30, 2012, 12:53:48 PM
Bullying can be subjective.  One person may make a critical comment without any ill-will intended; the person they make the comment to thinks it's bullying.  

I'll guess that Mr. Savage thinks anyone who openly disagrees with him is a bully, and that his comments are just criticism.  :bluesad:

I think bullying is a  new code work by the majority media to silence  anyone  who doesn't agree with their socio-political  agenda, Yes, there is  bullying coming  from people  claiming to be against it.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: tracy on April 30, 2012, 03:16:08 PM
Very good commentary.  I guess I will have to say something after all. :teddyr:
I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.)
  No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin.  So is adultery.  So is lust.  So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags.  He just doesn't love what they do.  Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either.  All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.
That was the best response for this,Indy....thank you.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: RCMerchant on May 01, 2012, 04:12:51 AM
Hmmm.
I'm an atheist-and a hetrosexual.
Thing is-he was in a high school-and supposed to be talking to students about why it's wrong to bully-NOT to push his own personal agenda about the bible.
And his sex orientation should have NEVER been mentioned.
I would have walked out too.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Flick James on May 01, 2012, 10:01:05 AM
Very good commentary.  I guess I will have to say something after all. :teddyr:
I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.)
  No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin.  So is adultery.  So is lust.  So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags.  He just doesn't love what they do.  Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either.  All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.

Indy, that was about as truly Christian a comment as probably could have been made. Then again, I know you to be a genuinely kind and considerate gentleman, so I'm not surprised. Based on your first post that you should probably stay out of it suggests to me you had something more pointed to say from a reactive posture, but I don't doubt that this post reveals your true colors.

I accept that the majority of Christian churches do not preach hatred toward gays/homosexuals/whatever term you want to use. However, there is a special place in the hearts of many Christians for that particular "sin." In other words, a Christian family is far more likely to ostracize, in some cases disown, a gay son than a son who cheats on his wife, even though I am willing to accept that may not be so in your case.

In any case, I am one who, and you know this well Indy, likes to point out hypocrisy in all people. I do this because I detest hyposcrisy from ANYONE, including Dan Savage. That having been said, he was inappropriate. As RC said, his sexual orientation had no place in a general discussion on bullying. At best, sexual orientation should have been mentioned only as one of a myriad of things kids get bullied over, like race, being a nerd, etc. His outburst had no place in that setting.

Now, from that viewpoint, which I consider to be a fairly measured and fair one, would you believe a presentation espousing Christian beliefs be acceptable in the same setting? I suspect you would believe it perfectly acceptable. This is where the hypocrisy enters in. It would seem that the biggest issue was not the mention of sexual orientation as a reason that kids get bullied, but that he referenced the Bible and Christianity in a negative way. I agree that it was inappropriate. However, the same people who would condemn him for it would have no problem with a Christian presentation or prayer in the same setting. Well, I'm sorry, but if Biblical reference is okay in that setting, then it is okay for everybody, including Dan Savage, and if people want to walk out on it, or the Christian sermon for that matter, then that's up to them. Or, as I believe, neither scenario belongs in that setting.

All of that aside, it seems to me, as a former Christian, that walking out was the LEAST Christian thing to do. From my perception the MOST Christian thing would have been not only to stay, but to approach the man afterwards if given the chance, shake his hand, and tell him that God loves him. You're a man who is into Christians "getting it right," Indy. Wouldn't you agree?


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: AndyC on May 01, 2012, 10:34:45 AM
Hmmm.
I'm an atheist-and a hetrosexual.
Thing is-he was in a high school-and supposed to be talking to students about why it's wrong to bully-NOT to push his own personal agenda about the bible.
And his sex orientation should have NEVER been mentioned.
I would have walked out too.

That's probably the best point of all. It's high school students, so keep it appropriate for the venue. It's about bullying, so talk about bullying. And keep it inclusive, which is in keeping with the anti-bullying message. Don't alienate part of the audience in a speech about tolerance.

Besides, I'm assuming he thinks it's important for bullies or potential bullies to take his message to heart. If he wants to put religious people under that blanket heading, would it not make sense to make the message easier for them to accept, rather than telling them something harsh and unnecessary that makes them want to leave?


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: indianasmith on May 01, 2012, 10:17:51 PM
Very good question, Flick. 
I'll answer it briefly, because it's late and my brain is tapioca. 
Walking out was a way to show offense, but it was not the perfect Christian response.
Would I have a problem with a presentation that presented a Christian perspective on bullying or homosexuality?
I guess that would depend on whether or not this was a  public school gathering.  If so, an overtly Christian message would be illegal.  In a privately funded setting, I would have no problem with it.  I think the key is for Christians to remember the verse that says "Let all you do be done in love."
BTW, thanks for the kind words.  I am far from perfect, but I do try to practice what I preach.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Chainsaw midget on May 01, 2012, 10:41:54 PM
Quote
Now, from that viewpoint, which I consider to be a fairly measured and fair one, would you believe a presentation espousing Christian beliefs be acceptable in the same setting? I suspect you would believe it perfectly acceptable. This is where the hypocrisy enters in. It would seem that the biggest issue was not the mention of sexual orientation as a reason that kids get bullied, but that he referenced the Bible and Christianity in a negative way. I agree that it was inappropriate. However, the same people who would condemn him for it would have no problem with a Christian presentation or prayer in the same setting. Well, I'm sorry, but if Biblical reference is okay in that setting, then it is okay for everybody, including Dan Savage, and if people want to walk out on it, or the Christian sermon for that matter, then that's up to them. Or, as I believe, neither scenario belongs in that setting.
If somebody wants to have a Christian prayer group, I have no problem with that, but they shouldn't call it a Study Hall and if you want to do a lecture about why Christians are horrible people, you shouldn't call it an Anti-Bullying Speach. 


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Trevor on May 02, 2012, 03:57:41 AM
As a celibate bisexual male and someone who has beliefs in a life better than this one when I pass on, I would like to say that if the God I believe in hates gay and lesbian people, why are so many people who fall into those categories committed Christians? I just have to look to a family member of mine and her life partner for the answers there: they are elders in their church, which accepts them as I do, without question.  :smile:

The British actor John Barrowman (he of that immortal line in Shark Attack 3  :buggedout:) is quoted as saying: "Be a buddy, not a bully." I am the former.  :smile:


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Mofo Rising on May 02, 2012, 05:01:44 AM
Savage took the militant route. Probably not the best venue for it, but there isn't really a good socially acceptable venue for the militant.

Let's not look for easy answers.

That there was an attack on Christianity isn't in doubt. But the fact remains that in many of the types of Christianity, of which their are multitudes, homosexuality is a direct sin. In this case, Christianity and homosexuality are diametric opposites. It's hard to find common ground with people who view your entire way of life as an abomination.

Outside of the high-minded ideals, we still live in a society where people are beaten to death solely for the reason that they are gay. I think we can all agree that that is not the Christian thing to do.

Granted, it's not fair to lay all the blame on Christianity. Islam, for example, also has strict precepts against homosexuality.

I know so many gay people, and I find absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. They live in this society, our society, where they are castigated at every turn by people who believe what they are doing is wrong. It doesn't always end in violence, but the stigma is always there.

indianasmith's statement "God loves Fags. He just doesn't love what they do." is so incredibly hurtful. The more so because it is well-intentioned.

In this case I think that belief is wrong. In another 20 years, we may not even hear about it anymore. But at present...


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: indianasmith on May 02, 2012, 06:26:19 AM
So in order to avoid hurting the feelings of homosexuals, you would require believers to renounce the clear teaching of Scripture?

I guess that's "tolerance."  We have to give up a teaching of our faith so as not to offend others.

Anything else you want us to give up?


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: AndyC on May 02, 2012, 11:24:59 AM
The British actor John Barrowman (he of that immortal line in Shark Attack 3  :buggedout:) is quoted as saying: "Be a buddy, not a bully." I am the former.  :smile:

Got to hand it to him. He managed to be successful as an openly non-hetero action hero. Captain Jack Harkness is obviously a charismatic and likable character, but I've wondered if people were more accepting of his sexuality because it went so far beyond male, female or even human as to seem ironically macho. The guy f**ked anything that was sentient and consenting.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: alandhopewell on May 02, 2012, 02:18:11 PM
Very good commentary.  I guess I will have to say something after all. :teddyr:
I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.)
  No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin.  So is adultery.  So is lust.  So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags.  He just doesn't love what they do.  Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either.  All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.

     Thank you, Indy.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: alandhopewell on May 02, 2012, 02:26:52 PM
Savage took the militant route. Probably not the best venue for it, but there isn't really a good socially acceptable venue for the militant.

Let's not look for easy answers.

That there was an attack on Christianity isn't in doubt. But the fact remains that in many of the types of Christianity, of which their are multitudes, homosexuality is a direct sin. In this case, Christianity and homosexuality are diametric opposites. It's hard to find common ground with people who view your entire way of life as an abomination.

Outside of the high-minded ideals, we still live in a society where people are beaten to death solely for the reason that they are gay. I think we can all agree that that is not the Christian thing to do.

Granted, it's not fair to lay all the blame on Christianity. Islam, for example, also has strict precepts against homosexuality.

I know so many gay people, and I find absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. They live in this society, our society, where they are castigated at every turn by people who believe what they are doing is wrong. It doesn't always end in violence, but the stigma is always there.

indianasmith's statement "God loves Fags. He just doesn't love what they do." is so incredibly hurtful. The more so because it is well-intentioned.

In this case I think that belief is wrong. In another 20 years, we may not even hear about it anymore. But at present...

     I do not understand why you find Indy's statement "hurtful" . As he so ably pointed out, God hates ALL sin, yet He loves His supreme creation, us; otherwise, He would've just flushed us as a bad job. Instead, He gave us salvation through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Mofo Rising on May 02, 2012, 03:15:18 PM
So in order to avoid hurting the feelings of homosexuals, you would require believers to renounce the clear teaching of Scripture?

I guess that's "tolerance."  We have to give up a teaching of our faith so as not to offend others.

Anything else you want us to give up?

I didn't ask that of you, nor did I phrase my post as an attack on any side. I was simply stating the situation as it exist today. Christianity and homosexuality are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but if it is going to be set up that way, then conflict is unavoidable.

So speaking of tolerance, flip the situation around. Why should you expect tolerance from people you are intolerant of? This goes for everybody.

I don't condone or condemn Savage's actions. He took the militant route, and the consequences of that are what you see before you.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: indianasmith on May 02, 2012, 04:33:33 PM
That's a fair question.
I will say this - I firmly believe that many homosexuals are "saved" and will go to heaven.  Because God forgives sin.
However, I believe that, scripturally, it is impossible to be an obedient Christian and a practicing homosexual at the same time.  By the same token, you cannot be an obedient Christian and a practicing liar, adulterer, thief, or slut.

Which means, basically, that the world is full of disobedient Christians.  Frankly, I don't know why God puts up with us.

To the gay community, I say: "Unless you wish to become a Christian, I would never ask you to change your sexual behavior.  By the same token, unless I wish to become gay, don't ask me to delete passages of Scripture, or refuse to believe them."


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Allhallowsday on May 02, 2012, 07:23:57 PM
Very good commentary.  I guess I will have to say something after all. :teddyr:
I will say this - having grown up in Southern Baptist Churches, and been a part of a strongly Christian community of friends and associates my whole life - I have only known a very small handful of Christians who preach hatred against homosexuals, and only one who advocated violence (other than a few brainless teenagers who were macho posturing; my usual response to such rhetoric is "Christ died to save them as much as He did to save you, which means He loves them as much as He loves you." That usually shuts them up.)
  No Christian church that I am aware of teaches the Levitical death penalty for homosexuality (I do not consider the Westboro Baptist goons to be Christians at all), and indeed that law was ONLY for the ancient Biblical nation of Israel. The Bible simply teaches that homosexuality is a sin.  So is adultery.  So is lust.  So is sex outside of marriage. So is stealing, slander, lying, murder, and lots of other things, many of which are NOT a crime under any civil law. Humans are all addicted to sinful behavior of one sort or another; that is why Christ had to sacrifice Himself to save us - we were incapable of saving ourselves.

God loves fags.  He just doesn't love what they do.  Frankly, He doesn't like some of the things I do either.  All that means is that all of us need mercy and grace - so we should all show more of it to each other.
I guess that one statement is intended to be a reference to the frequent posters held up members of the Westboro Baptist church.  Use of the word "fag" is no more acceptable than the words "n****r," "b***h," "kike," etc. 
It is worth noting, just for example, that the words "fag" and "kike" have not been censored by this board as my other two examples.  We all have a long way to go. 


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: indianasmith on May 02, 2012, 07:27:36 PM
It was a reference - and rebuttal - of Westboro's ugliness.
For what it's worth, my gay friends have used the term to refer to themselves.
I was not trying to be perjorative, but to express my distaste for the WBC's apparent motto.


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Allhallowsday on May 03, 2012, 06:40:56 PM
Like I wrote, the word is no more acceptable than the other examples. 


Title: Re: "Anti-bullying" activist... is a bully.
Post by: Mofo Rising on May 04, 2012, 03:33:31 AM
One last thing and then I'll shut up about this.

Why would any high school invite Dan Savage as a commencement speaker?

Savage has for the past 20 years or so written a very explicit sex column for the paper The Onion. And I mean explicit.

Dan Savage is the source of the reason that Santorum refers to an incredibly dirty sex act, and not just a presidential hopeful. If you don't know the other meaning of Santorum, I don't recommend you Google it. That other meaning was all Savage, and he did it 10 years ago.

Commencement speaker, probably not the best idea.