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Other Topics => Entertainment => Topic started by: BoyScoutKevin on August 13, 2015, 03:18:10 PM



Title: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on August 13, 2015, 03:18:10 PM
Shakespeare! The greatest playwright who ever lived knew how to pull the heart strings of his audience. He killed off a kid. And to make the pathos more poignant, for the historical characters in some of his films, he sometimes reduced the age of the character. Thus . . . from his plays staged for TV and/or film adaptations, we have . . .

Romeo and Juliet (1968)
of course, but . . .?! We also have . . .

Henry V
Henry VI, parts I-III
Julius Caesar (1953) (implied)
King John
Macbeth
Richard III
and Titus Andronicus
etc.

Next time: definitions and rules


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on August 23, 2015, 01:57:01 PM
Rules and definitions

Death is . . .
comedic
dramatic
emphatic
horrorific
sympathetic
tragic

Death is for . . .
defining
foreshadowing
motivating
surprising

all of the above
none of the above

For most part . . .
The death occurs on screen. Not off screen.
SEEN!
The death is not implied, but . . .?! shown.
SEEN!
Not afterwards, but . . .?! during.
SEEN!

A kid is 17 and under.
The character. NOT the actor
Who can be anywhere from the same age as their character to 8 years older than their character.
And who averages 2 to 3 years older than their character.

For example . . .
In "Descendants," the 4 villainous teens are all suppose to be 16-years-old, while the actors portraying them are . . .

Dove Cameron
is 19 years old this year
Cameron Boyce
is 16 years old this year
Booboo Stewart
is 21 years old this year
Sofia Carson
no age give for her

WORKS! (IMHO)
does NOT work! (IMHO)

Next time: one of the oldest and most effective


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on September 05, 2015, 04:45:20 PM
Ere we get to our topic, let me just add, that while the ages of some characters are clearly defined, the ages of the others are my best guess, especially in the upper ranges.

Film is a visual short hand. And one of the oldest, dating back almost a century, and one of the most effective, is to show the horrors of war by killing one or more kids in the film. Here are some examples that . . .

WORK!
A Bridge Too Far
Cross of Iron
Dr. Zhivago
intolerance
Lionheart (1986)
Luther
The Sand Pebbles
War and Peace (1957)
War and Peace (1968)
Waterloo
Zulu Dawn

Not that they always work, as here are some examples, where they . . .

do NOT Work!
Alexander Nevsky
Back to Bataan
Braveheart
Captain Hornblower R.N.
Santiago

Next time: sex and murder


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on September 14, 2015, 02:35:30 PM
Sex and murder.

Sex some. Murder more. But . . .?! a sex murder. That is a rare bird indeed. Indeed, I know of less then a dozen instances of such. Here are some examples.

1st the girls.

The Green Berets (implied)
does NOT work!

Last House on the Left (1972)
Unseen

Though, what I find interesting is that the girls are defined as being 17, as if, murder of a 17-year-old is worst than murder of an 18-year-old. Of course, and while I cannot prove it, fictionally, I have seen enough cases, where an 18 or over is considered to have reached the age of majority, and is thus an adult, while a 17 and under is considered not to have reached the age of majority, and is thus still a child.

Now. legally, there is some proof of this, as the U.S. Supreme Court in a 5 to 4 decision has ruled that a convicted murderer cannot be executed for the murder, if the murder occurred, when the murderer was 17 or less. A convicted murderer can only be executed for a murder, if the murder occurred, when the murderer was 18 or over.

As for the boys . . .

Keep it simple. Boys (both pre-teen and teen) think with their penises. Not with their brains. Keep it that simple and it . . .

WORKS!
Lair of the White Worm
The Tempter
2020 Texas Gladiators
Aaron and Bianchi's Thanos rising
Charlaine Harris' An ice gold grave

On the other hand . . .

Try anything more complex, and it . . .

does NOT work!
Broadchurch
Anne Perry's Bluegate fields

Next time: the why?


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on September 22, 2015, 02:32:20 PM
The Why or why it WORKS! and/or does NOT work!

Been there. Seen that.

Fright Night
Original (1985)
WORKS!
Remake (2011)
does NOT work!

Village of the Damned
Original (1960)
WORKS!
Remake (1993)
does NOT work!
Sequel (1964)
Children of the Damned
does NOT work!

Though there is a couple of interesting facets of the remake. (1st) Fewer children. 10 instead of the original 12, and, (2nd) whereas, in the original all the children were killed, one of the children in the remake--a boy--lives and is allowed to walk away with his earth mother.

Lord of the Flies
Original (1960)
WORKS!
Remake (1990)
does NOT work!

That would seem to be the rule and explanation, except . . . there are exceptions.

War and Peace
Original (1959)
Remake (1968)
Both WORK!

Though, the killings in the remake may work, because they are done in slo-mo.

Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
Film (1992)
TV (1997)
Neither WORK!

To be continued . . .





Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on October 02, 2015, 05:21:37 PM
Continuing from previous post . . .

Same Director (Ken Russell)
Lair of the White Worm
WORKS!
Salome's Last Dance
does NOT! work

Surprise! Open Your Eyes!
Assault on Precinct 13 (1976)
WORKS!
The Usual Suspects
does NOT! work

Violence
Too violent
Salem's Lot (2004)
does NOT! work
Cry of the Banshee
WORKS!
Could be more violent
The Adventures of Huck Finn (1993)
WORKS!

Similar Subject. Sometimes Yes. Sometimes No.
Massacre at Central High
WORKS!
Heathers
does NOT! work
Toy Soldiers
WORKS!
Taps
does NOT! work

Films I Like
True Grit (1968)
WORKS!
Big Jake
does NOT! work

Films I Dislike
Hang 'Em High
WORKS!
The Cowboys
does NOT! work

Unnecessary Killing
The Blob (1988)
does NOT! work

Except for the last, which never works. No one reason seems to WORK! or does NOT! work all of the time. And, of course, (IMHO)

Next time: more that WORK! and does NOT! work. But . . . 1st "the great contradiction."


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on October 17, 2015, 04:28:48 PM
I was going to post what I called "The Great Contradiction," but . . .?! 1st I thought I post more examples of what I think WORKS! and does NOT WORK! 1st up . . .

the boy in striped pyjamas
Bugsy Malone
cemetery man
dragon slayer
the eagle
Frankenstein (1931)
Frankenstein : the True Story
I Am Number 4
mad max beyond thunder dome
Quentin Durward
Raiders of Atlantis
tales from the crypt : demon knight
wizards
7 magnificent gladiators

Next: what does NOT! Work, then "the great contradiction," but . . .?! 1st an aside

A new film version of Shakespeare's "Macbeth" should be released here in the U.S. in the 1st week of December of this year (2015.) And looking at the cast list, it seems to have more children in it, then any previous version I can remember seeing. Not only Banquo's son and Macduff's children, who are normally played by child actors, but . . .?! even some of the witches, villagers, and soldiers are seemingly played by children. We'll have to see whether any of them get killed on screen or not.





Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on October 26, 2015, 05:28:38 PM
And here we have some more that do NOT! work (IMHO.)

Barry Lyndon
Basketball Diaries
Beloved
Damian : Omen II
The Good Son
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Heavy Metal
Henry : Portrait of a Serial Killer
Hercules (2014)
Hocus Pocus
A Judgment in Stone
The Lost Continent
Once Upon a Time in the West
Robert Heinlein's Puppet Masters
Satyr icon
Simon Birch
Star gate
Swarm
Tarzan and the Leopard Men
Young Sherlock Holmes

Next time: the best and the worst, but . . .
before that . . .
"the great contradiction"





Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on November 02, 2015, 04:27:14 PM
"The Great Contradiction"

Vampires die.
Kids live.
But . . .?! What if the kid is a vampire? Do they live or die? Here are some examples of both.

Kid vampires die.

Interview with a Vampire
Martin
Near Dark
Return to Salem's Lot

Kid vampires live.

Black Sabbath
I Was a Teenage Vampire
The Little Vampire
The Lost Boys (the youngest boy)
Stephen King's Kingdom Hospital
Ultraviolet
Vamp

Uncertain

Van Helsing

We see kid vampires in the house, but . . .?! When the vampires in the house are killed by the "light," we don't see the kid vampires escape the "light." Though, neither do we see them killed. Thus, whether they lived or died is uncertain.

Thus, they are more likely to live than die, but . . .?! What of kids as victims of vampires. We'll take that up next time.


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on November 09, 2015, 07:01:59 PM
Except for "Martin," where the title character is psychologically predisposed to believe he is a vampire, and "Return to Salem's Lot," where--apparently--the children are born with vampire tendencies, children become vampires, because they were bitten and "turned" by a vampire. Thus, they are victims, and that is because--for the most part--we associate victims with innocence, and, rightly or wrongly, children are thought to be more innocent than adults, thus they often make better victims than adults.

Here are some more films, not previously mentioned, where children are victims of vampires.

Abraham Lincoln : Vampire Hunter
Captain Kronos
Count Dracula
Dracula (1971)
The Hunger
Tenderness of Wolves
Vampire Circus

Of course, this list is not complete, as I am sure there are other films, which I have not seen, where children are victims of vampire attacks.

Next time: the best and the worst


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on November 24, 2015, 11:55:25 AM
The worst examples of kid killings in films or on TV.

Good idea. Bad execution
Back to Bataan
Broad church
Captain Horn blower, R.N.
Fright Night (2010)
The Good Son
Salome's Last Dance

Bad idea. Worst execution
Basketball Diaries
The Blob (1988)
Brave heart
Heavy Metal
The Hunger
A Judgment in Stone
The Puppet Masters
Salem's Lot (2004)
Satyricon
Swarm
Tarzan and the Leopard Woman

Next time: the best examples





Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on December 06, 2015, 03:14:15 PM
And now 25 of the best kid killings.
Good idea. Better execution.

The Adventures of Huck Finn
Assault on Precinct 13 (1976)
Bugsy Malone
Cemetery Man
Cry of the Banshee
Doctor Zhivago
The Eagle
Frankenstein (1931)
Fright Night (1986)
Hang 'Em High
I Am Number 4
Intolerance
Lair of the White Worm
L'anticristo
Lion heart (1987)
Raiders of Atlantis
Romeo and Juliet (1968)
Sand Pebbles
Vampire Circus
War and Peace (1968)
Waterloo
Wizards
Zulu Dawn
7 Magnificent Gladiators
and 2020 Texas Gladiators

And here is how they died.

Vehicular accident
Throat slitting
Stabbing
Shooting
Poisoning
Neck breaking
Machine gunning
Knifing
Impaling
Hanging
Explosion
Drowning
Bludgeoning
Blood draining
and Beheading

One need not have empathy for the victims, but . . .?! It helps, as I have 33% empathy for them.

And one final comment. Of the approximately 86 killed in the 25 films, approximately 78 or 91% were boys, and 8 were girls or 9%.

Next time: comments on a couple of comments.




Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on December 15, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
In 2014 Belgium filmmaker Jonas Govaerts made a film called "Welp" aka "Cub" about a troop of Belgian boy scouts who go on a camping trip in the Ardennes and encounter a sociopathic survivalist and a feral kid who may or may not be a werewolf. Kids are killed. When asked why he killed off most, if not all the scouts, in the film, to paraphrase Mr. Govaerts, he said: "Because I could do it." Wrong answer Mr. Govaerts, as almost any filmmaker could do it. If you want to distinguish yourself from your fellow filmmakers, your answer should have been. . .."Because I could do it better than anyone else." Not that he could do it better than anybody else, because, if you look at the death of another scout, the one in Ken Russell's "Lair of the White Worm," Russell is able to generate empathy for the victim, even though the victim is amazingly stupid in his actions. Whereas, one will find few viewers feeling any empathy for the scouts in Govaerts' film. Most of whom are portrayed as being bullies and thugs. The fact that Mr. Govaerts failed in this regard, is also why, his film, most likely, while playing a couple of U.S. film festivals, failed to gain a release, limited or wide, here in the U.S.

Next time: a statement from someone who saw the film.


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on December 24, 2015, 12:27:12 PM
In the same magazine article, where the creator of the film talked about why he killed off the kids in the film, someone, who'd seen the film, was asked, why they'd seen the film, and with the implication he wanted to see kids killed in a film, and this is a paraphrase of what the man said: "Because you don't see kids killed in a film." Putting aside the idea of wanting to see kids killed, even if the deaths are faked, that statement is somewhat ignorant. Though, with somewhat more justification than the statement made by the creator of the film, as most people in an audience know less about films than the people who create them.

And even if the man meant seeing kids killed on-screen as opposed to killing them off-screen, that statement is ignorant, because kids are being killed on-screen, as pointed out here.

And even if the man meant horror films, as opposed to other types of films, where the killings may be even more prevalent, that statement is ignorant, because kids are being killed in horror films, as pointed out here.

Next time: books and killing kids


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on December 31, 2015, 12:59:59 PM
"The hero kills the man. The villain kills the woman. And no one kills the kid."

Of course, that is not totally correct, as we have seen here in films.

Nor is it true for TV, here are which some examples.

Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
Combat
Doctor Who
Friday: the 13th
Hercules: the Legendary Journeys
Houston Knights
The X-Files
Xena: the Warrior Princess

Nor is it true for books. Though, it is probably rarer in books than in films or on TV. It is e'en rarer for one of the good guys to kill a kid (kid=17 or younger), but . . .?! E'en that is not unknown in books, and here are some examples of that.

Agatha Christie
crooked house

H. Rider Haggard
king Solomon's mines

Damian Hunter
the centurion

Elmer Kelton
texas raiders

Chris Pierson
the taladas trilogy

Howard Pyle
otto of the silver hand

Ross
war at the edge of the world

Dan Simmons
"drood" or "the terror"

Frank Yerby
goat song

On the other hand . . .?!

Next time: on the other hand . . .?!


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on January 09, 2016, 01:35:37 PM
On the other hand . . .?!

Think "The child of my enemy is my enemy," and (IMHO) you have a scene that does not work, and here are some examples of that.

Anonymous
Robin Hood and the Monk

What a difference a century makes. What was acceptable when the story was written would not be acceptable in Shakespeare's time. Nor would it be acceptable in our time, as the story told today has to be rewritten.

Sarah Douglas
The Daughter of Hades

C. S. Forester
Hornblower and the Crisis

Zane Grey
The Last Wagon Train

Victor Hugo
The Hunchback of Notre Dame

Per Lagerkervist
The Dwarf

Jean Rabe
The Rebellion

Kenneth Roberts
The Northwest Passage

Whitley Streiber
The Hunger

And the effect on me is even greater. If a scene does not work in a film, several of which we have already mentioned, I'll continue to watch the film, and I even might enjoy the film. On the other hand . . . ?! If a scene does not work in a book, then I stop reading the book.

And when the number of kids killed can be determined in all the books mentioned, only 4 or 5 are girls or 18% to 23% are girls, and all the rest are boys or 77% to 82%.

Next time: we'll wrap it all up with some final comments


Title: Re: Shakespeare's Solution : Kill the Kid
Post by: BoyScoutKevin on January 23, 2016, 01:11:51 PM
Final comments

As to the why it interests me, not because like some, I like seeing kids killed, but . . .?! Because it really is one of the hardest scenes to do and/or write rightly, as one can so easily do what one does not want to do, and that is alienate one's audience and/or readers, which one really, really does not want to do, if one want to be successful. Thus, it takes a great filmmaker and/or writer, almost a Shakespeare to do the scene well enough, so that it does not alienate one's audience and/or readers.

And that is that.