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An agnostic friend of mine composed a number of questions about God, which I answered to the best of my ability . . .


http://lewisliterarylair.blogspot.com/2017/11/answering-questions-from-agnostic.html (http://lewisliterarylair.blogspot.com/2017/11/answering-questions-from-agnostic.html)

Yikes!  Your "friend" seems like a handful.  The motif in this his argument, that you addressed several times, is though he doesn't believe in God, he still blames him for the hurricanes.  :bouncegiggle:

Seems like a lot of people who don't believe in God are awfully angry with Him! LOL

I've got one: what happened to Jesus' earthly body when he ascended to Heaven?

What we were told was Jesus was not a spirit, Jesus was a person who returned after death in a glorified body, like those promised to the faithful after resurrection, so that was what ascended. It did not stay behind.

You know, I've always thought, how high did he go, into space or just out of sight?

I've also wondered how the world can end on a specific day when half the world lies either a day ahead of behind the other half. Though I guess that's nitpicking, like trying to say you've already had your birthday, it was yesterday, in Australia. (Yes, someone tried that on me.)

whats his name put his fingers in the nail holes and he was like there though

Thomas

He has it there still; transformed and glorified, but according to Scripture still bearing the scars of His wounds.

so when people die does their entire body go the Heaven? are coffins empty? If he had an earthly body how can it also be a heavenly body

"A wizard did it."

Ooooh, okay, I see your mistake, lester, you think religion actually has to make sense.

Nooo! It's G-d's prerogative to make it all as funny/crazy/silly/holy/miraculous as God wishes. Don't eat apples, get rid of foreskins, hold someone under water, virgin births, the devil gets this world, what's eternity and omnipotence without whimsy, eh?

But to give your question a fuller answer, I believe you are confusing the pre-Judgment Day afterlife with the post-Judgment Day one.

Currently souls, i.e. spirits, pure energy, of the non-damned glide up into Heaven for a stop-over beyond the pearly gates til the last trumpet blows, when, yes, everyone will pop out of graves, re-form from dust, blast up outa the sea like corks, sail back down from Heaven, and THEN that's when the glorified bodies get passed out and tombs are empty, and the devil and those not lucky enough to believe will face plant in a lake of fire with, as Rowan Atkinson said, the atheists in particular feeling like a right lot of nitwits.

Didn't say it made sense, just that it's in there!

So to review: nowadays=coffins occupied.

Thenadays=coffins empty.

I hope I cleared that up.

(BTW karma for anyone who ID's the previous "wizard" reference.)

Read the latter half of I Corinthians 15 if you still require clarification.

now I'm more confused. Where is his original body? not the spiritual one

Transformed, glorified, and renewed.  Think back on the Gospels - the tomb was empty; Jesus' physical body was restored to life and walked out.  He could eat, he could touch and be touched, he was still physical and corporeal.  But at the same time, he could pass through locked doors and appear in two different locations miles apart in short order.  He was still physical, but his body was operating at a different level than it had before.

Just remember this - God wouldn't be much of a God if we could understand everything about Him.  He is SUPPOSED to transcend us.

This guy reminds me of Professor Radisson in God's Not Dead.  :buggedout:

(http://wp.production.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/files/2014/08/kevin-sorbo.jpg)

I did like what he said about being a Christian but still having to pay a traffic ticket.  :teddyr:

From The Simpson's Treehouse of Horror (not sure which one, but it had Lucy Lawless in it)?

Whooooa! Karma for the Scotsman!

I never got the whole wise men/ adoration thing either. Everyone came out to seem him then they just like left and never thought about it again. I wonder if any of them were like "Hey Jesus I was at your adoration, when are you going to start doing some of that stuff?"  "I've got to be a carpenter till I'm 30 for some reason but just you wait!""

No one knows what happened to the magi, but Matthew records that Jesus' family fled to Egypt to get away from Herod, and then took up residence in Nazareth to get away from Herod's son.
One interesting theory I heard regarding why Jesus did not begin His ministry until he was nearly 30 is pretty fascinating.
We know Jesus had a houseful of siblings - four brothers and at least two sisters (the Gospels verify this).  Joseph, according to a second century tradition, died when Jesus was sixteen.  It may have been that Jesus became the man of the house then and had to take care of the family until His siblings all came of age.  Maybe the wedding at Cana was the last of His little sisters getting married?

definitely nothing about that in the bible though

That's true.  It bugged people 1800 years ago to - there were a whole set of forged Gospels produced by the Gnostics focusing exclusively on Jesus' childhood.  I think God revealed all that he wanted us to know in the Gospels; anything else is speculation. Fun, but ultimately profitless.

I think Gospel of Thomas is relevant because of the format. Papias asserted that the original gospel of Matthew was in Hebrew (probably aramaic actually) and was similarly just the quotes. This would make it a likely candidate for being the elusive Q gospel. If so, it probably looked somewhat like Thomas without all the eastern type mumbo jumbo.

The problem with the Gospel of Thomas is, if you study the grammar and word order, it's way too late to have been written by the Apostle Thomas.  It follows the wording and order of the Diatesseron, a harmony of the four Gospels dating to around 175 AD.  Way too late to contain much eyewitness testimony.

right, but the fact that people recognized the format of just quotes is relevant.

It is quite possible that some of the earliest written records of Jesus were simply written collections of his quotes - but it's also worth noting that there is simply no manuscript evidence that "Q" ever existed.  It's a theoretical construct based on textual analyses of similar passages in the synoptic Gospels.  The thing that the proponents of "Q" tend to overlook is that, IF you accept traditional authorship - which MANY scholars do, Bart Ehrman notwithstanding - then these three books were written within a decade of each other by men who KNEW each other.  It is quite possible they drew on a common oral tradition, or shared sources.

well Papias also describes mathews gospel as being written in hebrew, whereas the one now known as Mathew was originally in Greek, so you have to wonder what sort of document he was talking about. That whatever it was would be completely distinct from the story form gospel of Mark and contain information, quotes, not found in Mark and in the language that Mathew (aramaic ) spoke and write in etc isn't a bad fit from a certain perspective


"Therefore Matthew put the logia (sayings) in an ordered arrangement in the Hebrew language, but each person interpreted them as best he could" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierapolis


Correct that there is no actual Q document anyone has seen.  Papias' "expositions on the saying of the lord" also disappeared though it is referenced and quoted by Eusibius and others as i'm sure you're aware.


also Luke states "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us,  just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word." many implies more than one or two so ... who knows what was circulating in one form or another

All true.  I hope they find a copy of Papias' lost works one of these days; it would shed a lot of light on the early stages of Christianity.
I think Matthew wrote down the sayings of the Lord in his native language very early on, maybe even while Jesus was still alive, and then wrote them out in Greek later on.  But, that's pure speculation on my part.

the idea that Mark is taken from Peter's account comes from Papias and that has been generally integrated into the "tradition" so maybe other stuff from there has too

the alleged quote from Jesus about how there will be gigantic grapes is one of my favorite things in the world (and is in many ways true, there are tons of grapes in this world now)

Israeli grapes are huge, too - like golf balls!

thats in the regular bible. when they go and scout out the land and are like buddy you're not gonna believe these grapes

Right.  Joshua Ch. 3 or thereabouts.
It's been a while since I read the Gospel of Thomas.

Irenaeus indeed quotes the fourth book of Papias for an otherwise-unknown saying of Jesus, recounted by John the Evangelist, which Eusebius doubtless has in mind:[36][37]

    The Lord used to teach about those times and say:

"The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to humankind.… "

Interesting.  Papias was far back in time enough that he learned from the apostles as a boy; it might be an authentic saying, or an embellishment of one.  It sounds a lot like the language in the parable of the sower, only expanded upon.  John himself said that Jesus said and did many things that were not written down.  Like I said, a shame Papias' works were lost.

Now, this is an interesting debate post. LOL.

Yeah, Lester and I do this about once on the quarter.  We both enjoy it, I think. I know I do.
He's a lot more fun to discuss these things with than one of my friends on FB who insists that Jesus never even existed.

When I freed myself from the closet in 2003, my faith that I was raised with was still with me and still is, despite many life roadblocks that I just managed to get over. I always find it strange that some people think LGBTIQ members - I'm the B part - cannot have faith but I do and most of the peeps I know in that community are: all religions.

In short, my God made me the way I am and He don't make no rubbish.  :smile:

  :thumbup:

Good for you, Trevor!

I think the Bible is clear that a member of the LGBTIQ community, or any community, who sincerely accepts Jesus will be be forgiven of wrongdoing of all variety, and can be part of the kingdom Jesus spoke of. I know some gay people who lead good lives that have a lot more in common with the teachings of Jesus than many of those who try to convince me all "deviants" will go to Hell. To say that perfection or even perfect adherence to Christian teachings is required to be "saved" is simply a distortion of Jesus' message, which was clearly that everyone is imperfect.

I wish more people understood: Judge not lest you be judged. Condemn not, lest you be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. (Not to mention not throwing stones.)

Careful. While it is clear that people can be forgiven of their sin, it's also clear that we cannot continue to sin.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6&version=HCSB (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+6&version=HCSB)

It is similar to something found in enoch http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2013/09/papias-and-the-ten-thousand-branches/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2013/09/papias-and-the-ten-thousand-branches/) which was once part of the general cannon and is of course referenced openly in Jude (and maybe more subtly elsewhere who can say)

He thought big you have to give him that. that's a lot of wine and bread