Badmovies.org Forum

so i am at a concert and all i want to do is hear some good bands but there are some PETA hippies there handing out fliers.  and these fliers are full of ridiculous arguments.  one says that chickens are noble animals that form social hierarchies and the other points out that chickens on farms have their beaks removed.  apparently PETA doesn't care that chickens will basically peck each other to death as part of natural behavior.  apparently its ok for chickens to kill each other, we just can't kill them and eat them ourselves.

and as far the terroism thing goes:
PETA says leather is bad -> buy synthetics -> synthetics come from polymers -> polymers come from oil -> oil comes from the middle east -> the money we spend on oil winds up going to terroists that then blow stuff up
follow the logic.  sorry felt like ranting.

Sorry, it will take a lot more than a few Vegan Hippies to convince me that a chicken is a noble animal.

Well, time to hope in the old SUV and trot over to the megamall and buy a gazillion gifts derived from polymers...damn Lucas/Kenner, making me support terrorists!

there was also the time where i got into an argument with some anti-sweatshop hippie.  apparently they refuse to acknowledge that cheap labor means cheaper products and $1 an hour might be s**tty pay in the states but it might be considered a dam good wage in another country.

christ!  hippies p**s me off.

If wages were the issue I'd agree with you, but the problem with third world labor usage is the human abuse issues. Hazardous working conditions, no support for injured workers, infested food, obscene hours, child labor. Poor pay is just one of the symptoms of exploitation and though I like exploitation in my films I don't care for it when directed at my fellow human being.

Hell, I'll put you in a sweatshop with a union level wage and you'd STILL quit before the the end of your first shift... if you could

Sometimes I think the world would be a better place if I were allowed to punch every hippie in the lung with a rifle butt. If you think about it hard enough you can connect buying or using anything to poor third world conditions or terrorists. It's part of the hippie mentality that America is this international bully and how we're the real global terrorists that opress third world nations. No, it's their poorly run governments. And what bullies send out trillions of dollars in aid? And helped Germany rebuild after the war they started, and France after the same war which they thought best to puss out of? And then they turn around and spread anti-American sentiment. F**k 'em. All of 'em. America's the best and they're just jealous.

Agreed (well, not with the rifle butt bit), but ALL of our hands are dirty and no amount of reasoning,  relativism, excuse making, or denial will change that simple fact.

You're more than welcome to TRY and "punch me in the lung with a rifle butt" (that doesn't even make sense). How old are you... 2? Do you think that we as a world power have no moral obligations to the rest of the world and that what ever we do is okay? Yes, we helped Germany, France and Japan after WW2 and it's just about the last intelligent thing we've done in terms of foreign policy! When our industrialists were pulling the same stunt on us we unionized and went on strike and fought very hard some times in the face of the violence you propose to be treated right and not as a means to someone elses economic ends. People take advantage of other people and no matter how many times it happens IT STILL ISN'T RIGHT! If you lived my your own arguement I should be able to enslave you if I can get away with it. Every good thing we do we get to take credit for and every bad thing we do is someone elses fault is that it?

 Yeah, Chad mistakes have been made, but that's not an excuse. Just because someone kills one person and the fact that people have been killing people forever doesn't make it okay? Since they've already "done it" why not do it again? That doesn't make sense. People in the United States were exploited before they decide they didn't like it and we forced the industrialists to stop. They are now exploiting others because they can't get away with it here. Does that make it okay? No. They should still be stopped.

Understand, I don't care if they take advantage of the difference in economic scales. If they can pay someone else $1/hr for a job that they would have to pay $15 for here, fine. Go for it. ESPECIALLY if the worker can get the same quality of living off of that $1 that we could get off of $15 (which I doubt). It's the un-nessecary "cost-cutting" hazards and hardship that they are sujected to for no better reason than greed that needs to be monitored.

Lastly... What the f**k does any of this have to do with B movies or even PETA?

Go for it. ESPECIALLY if the worker can get the same quality of living off of that $1 that we could get off of $15 (which I doubt). It's the un-nessecary "cost-cutting" hazards and hardship that they are sujected to for no better reason than greed that needs to be monitored.
*****  Of course this assumes that the sweat shop is in a foreign country and not one of the ones run illegally right here in the US, using illegal aliens.  I don't think JR really thinks sweatshops are a good thing, nor was he serious about wanting to harm anyone with a rifle butt - but rather he was expressing frustration at people who seem to think America's imperfections make it an evil entity full of hypocrites.  The kind of reasoning that leads Muslim protesters to carry signs that say: "Ask yourself America, why does the Muslim world hate you?"  JR and many Americans just want to say: "Gee, I don't know?  Because we feed it, train its doctors and engineers, send it medicine, allow its charities to raise money here, keep its economy afloat by using oil, find oil for it to exploit and sell us, build the machines it needs to get that oil, protect it's people from folks like the Serbs by risking the lives of our soldiers...  or maybe it's because we produce the music and movies that large parts of the Muslim world can't get enough of."  I loved the footage of the kid in the Darth Maul t-shirt carrying a down-with-America sign in an Egyptian protest.

There - I worked movies into this decidedly non-movie-related topic.  It was a stretch.

>If wages were the issue I'd agree with you, but the problem with third world labor
>usage is the human abuse issues. Hazardous working conditions, no support for
>injured workers, infested food, obscene hours, child labor.

And if we all stop buying products made in those countries, everything will get better for those people?

Let's face it, the only people that have any hope of changing these things are the government and the UN, and everytime they do something like that, people start screaming that the US shouldn't be interferring in the affairs of other countries. Which is it? Do you want other countries left alone, or do you want something done to change these conditions?

<>

Exactly. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we do, we're bullies trying to police the world, if we don't we're greedy capitalist pigs that don't care. These people will always hate America no matter what.

>And if we all stop buying products made in those countries, everything will get >better for those people?

One minor thing you can do is switch to buying 'fair trade' items where possible (eg bananas and coffee). It makes sure that the actual source of those items, the growers and pickers etc, get  a reasonable price for their product.  I know its only a small thing but if everybody did it could make a real difference.

>And what bullies send out trillions of dollars in aid?

Many African countries are paying the 'western countries' more in debt repayments and interest than they receive in Aid.

And America does in a way 'bully' countries. America does it's best to make sure that no country in the world can grow strong enough to become a threat. It has in the past 'overseen' elections in many countries (the ones I've read about were South American) so that the US-friendly capitolist candidate would win. And when justified revolutions in these countires occur, America steps in to stop them.

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not 'anti-American' at all, I just dislike a lot of stuff your government does. I also dislike a lot of stuff our British government does, too.  Tony Blair's like the kid in the schoolyard who would stand behind the tough kid shouting insults at people over his shoulder.  And right now the governments all over the news for getting caught out lying to the public.

>America's the best and they're just jealous.
I quote "Patriotism is the belief that your country is better than all others because it's the country you were born in"  This is the kind of ignorant statement that makes people dislike America.

And unfortunately you won't be able to punch me in the lung with a rifle butt, because we have these lovely gun-control laws, one thing our country got right. Maybe you'll just have to resort to hitting me with a stick or something.

Pete

Now back to movies, saw 'Battle Royale' the other day. Amazing film. I'll start a new thread for that one.

Holy s**t!!  Flames!!!!

AAAhhhhhhh!!!

Another flame war has erupted.

Take it from me Funk E., just do a search using my name or ask any of the regulars on this phorum that starting a flame war (of which I've started many) DOES NOT PAY!

It just creates a terrible argument that ends up going nowhere fast and BELIEVE ME, the regulars on here will have you for breakfast if you get them going hard enough!  
On top of that, Andrew (the proprietor of this site) will scold you for starting it.

I've been scolded by him (though he didn't use my name).

Now settle down kids and play nice!!

Uh,Peter6bk....Those "Lovely gun laws"  have preceded a major increase in  crime in England and Aussie land. I've read your papers (Love that internet access!), and, you ain't doing so good. Your more likely to get robbed at gun point in London then in New York!
So...as i remember a story of a young man found knifed to death in Manchester while i was there last year....who needs a gun? Pass a law? Big deal. Change the hearts and mind of your fellow citizens ( Yes, that includes mine)..and you may have something. And don't think all your fellow brits love those guns laws....got it from the horses mouth...they don't.  Here in columbus, you break into a home, you might well get carried out on a gerny. You do it in old blighty...and its pay day.
Also...."Patriotisim is the belief that your counrty is better then all others because its the country you were born in"....And that applys to loyal British and American citizens who came from other countries how? Alister Cook ( Author of the book, "My life in a chair") became a U.S. Citizen. Still loved England...but not enough to stay there.
I like England, and the people. But, like you, i do watch my Government with a jaundiced eye.
Still....lets not get a flame war started.....weren't we here to read about B-movies, BTW?

Good points about the gun control laws.

Wages paid by multinationals are GENEROUS by Third World standards and most of the problems in the form of excessive hours, bad/unsafe working conditions, kickbacks and sexual abuse come from the LOCALS who are put in charge. Certainly, it is the Western Corporations responsibility to oversee the administration of their businesses, but it is 'negligent oversight' NOT EXPLOITATION, that they are guilty of.

That said, conservative sod that I am, it sickens me that after some company like Nike takes thousands of American jobs and exports them so they can pay poor people in poor countries $4/day...they turn around and hike up the price of the shoes to $200/pair because they pay a basketball player $10 MILLION a year to endorse them. And does HE need the money? A sick situation. Not quite as simple as presented by the Anti-globalizationistas, but sick, nonetheless.

Pete B6K wrote:
>
> And America does in a way 'bully' countries. America does
> it's best to make sure that no country in the world can grow
> strong enough to become a threat. It has in the past
> 'overseen' elections in many countries (the ones I've read
> about were South American) so that the US-friendly capitolist
> candidate would win. And when justified revolutions in these
> countires occur, America steps in to stop them.
>
> I quote "Patriotism is the belief that your country is better
> than all others because it's the country you were born in"
> This is the kind of ignorant statement that makes people
> dislike America.

Before I chime in, let me also say I am not anti-American at all either. I love my country and such. But, I do agree that their are times when America does bully other countries and that our patriotism is being just mixed up as what Pete has defined. Whatever happened to just being proud of your country and the love of America, rather than going by "my country is better than all the others" theme which is the type of patriotism that is expressed today.

As an American, I am just proud of my country. I never go around bitiching about how "My country is better than this one or that one?" because it just doesn't seem the correct way to be patriotic. If I did that, I would be more of a rude, bully jerkoff American rather than a respectful individual who is proud to be an American. But, if this is the way how America has to act in order to push the "were better than you" ideal, it just makes us look stupid. And whatever the case may be, America has done some good and bad. And so has other countries as well, so we are technically head-and-toe with them on that subject.

In anycase, I just wanted to give my little say and stop from there. I don't want this to be a flame war either, so let's just halt and go back to our usual B-movie discussion, please. And really, what does this have to do with PETA specifically?

>And unfortunately you won't be able to punch me in the lung with a rifle butt,
>because we have these lovely gun-control laws, one thing our country got right.

Some areas of the US have drastically restricted gun ownership, like Washington D.C. Care to guess where that state ranks as far as acts of violent crime are concerned?

It's not the legal gun owners who are most likely to commit most crimes, it's the violent criminals who have no regard for the law and therefore aren't bothered by gun laws. Muggers don't want to get shot anymore than anyone else does and if they have reason to think that a person is armed, they'll look for an easier target.

>But, if this is the way how America has to act in order to push the "were better
>than you" ideal, it just makes us look stupid.

Take another look at the tapes of Sept. 11th and tell me that there aren't some cases where saying America is better than them is justified.

JohnL wrote:
>
> >But, if this is the way how America has to act in order to
> push the "were better
> >than you" ideal, it just makes us look stupid.
>
> Take another look at the tapes of Sept. 11th and tell me that
> there aren't some cases where saying America is better than
> them is justified.

JohnL, did you read the rest of my little statement first. I said: "As an American, I am just proud of my country. I never go around bitiching about how 'My country is better than this one or that one?' because it just doesn't seem the correct way to be patriotic. If I did that, I would be more of a rude, bully jerkoff American rather than a respectful individual who is proud to be an American. But, if this is the way how America has to act in order to push the 'were better than you' ideal, it just makes us look stupid."

Let me just point out that I feel that pulling the "better than them" theme is not very patriotic. Again, the love of your country and who/what you stand for is what patriotism is. It's not about whose better than who. I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. Is this a country built on freedom, or was it built on competition?

Of course, after the attacks on September 11th the "America is better than the ones who have retaliated on us" is justified I agree. But we have been using that "better than them" song-and-dance WAY BEFORE the 9/11 attacks, and I might add other countries have done that as well so we are not very alone on that subject. So I guess what I was trying to point out earlier wasn't written out too clearly and was maybe a little bit off. If so, sorry about the mis-translation I made earlier.

In any case, let's put the whole thing to rest now. I have to agree with what the others say: this is a forum for B-movie discussion, not politics and I should have stayed out of it in the firstplace. But as I say, you learn from your mistakes. I just wanted to give my say and then politely exit.

As George Carlin once said, "Chickens are good people."  they dont start wars, kill for fun, polute the earth, sell and take drugs, beat their wifes, and every terrible thing that man does

That said, conservative sod that I am, it sickens me that after some company like Nike takes thousands of American jobs and exports them so they can pay poor people in poor countries $4/day...they turn around and hike up the price of the shoes to $200/pair because they pay a basketball player $10 MILLION a year to endorse them.
*****  Right, then they market them to the demographic groups in this country LEAST able to afford $200 for a pair of lousy sneakers.  I wouldn't be caught dead wearing their shoes.  Shame on MJ, Tiger, and anyone else who peddles that garbage.  I guess pro sports just don't pay the bills these days.

ChrisK. Agree with you on Patriotisim. I'm glad i live here, and while i like Canada and the U.K., this is my home. And its not perfect. Its better then many, but not perfect. I hope i never become an "Ugly American". Regular ugly is quite enough!

Great Carlin gag, Joe Bob. But...if chickens were people,....they would not be people.,or chicken...Chipol? Pickens? Was Slim a half chicken/half human?  It might explain his voice!  If chickens were people , they would be intelligent....well, more so...and then where would they be?
They would certianly complain to the managment! They would understand what was happening then!
"Chicken run" would be a reality. "Animal Farm" more then a metaphore! "Motel Hell" would be the most popular film in Intelligent animal history!
And so, we return to the subject of B-movies!
Bout frickin time!

Crime statistics go up and down in every country, whether that country has gun control or not. When they go down, gun-control advocates quote them, and when they go up, the other side does. I would, however, point out that the UK and Japan have fewer funerals for police officers killed in the line of duty per capita than the US. Fewer mass funerals for schoolchildren, too. (Must be because of the astonishing similarities of their cultures...)

(Vaguely-related side note: I love it when someone "discovers" something about other countries. If I had a dime for every time some pinhead comes up to me with a look of excited glee on his face and blurts out something like "You like Japan so much! Well I just found out they have BULLIES in their schools!! And child molesters! And CRIME!! And PORN!! And some of them have guns too! So, uh...there!!," I'd have a buttload of dimes. It's when they poop out the more unbelievable horsehockey that I actually get offended: now I'm hearing from gun-heads that Japan actually has LOTS of crime and gun-related deaths but it's just never reported because of the government-Yakuza connection/conspiracy. "You didn't know THAT, did you?!? You can't disprove it either!" Uh, yeah. Now sit still while I list all of my favorite conspiracy theories that may not make sense but still can't be disproven...)    

You can kill someone with a knife, yes. Under very specialized circumstances, a small group  can kill thousands armed only with boxcutters. But beyond such circumstances, you can't, say, slaughter twenty-five kids at a school with a rock or a knife, unless they stand very still and you have a lot of time to work. With the right gun, you can kill several people and terrorize entire neighborhoods from the comfort of your car, whether you're the Washington snipers or some bored punk in Oakland.

It's incredible how many people think a bang-bang is their one and only form of defense. It must be the whole impressive-noise / penis-substitute / justice-requires-an-exit-wound machismo thing. Maybe it's just that guns are so simple, any fool can use them. Fortunately, science continutes to develop more and more effective non-lethal alternatives, and one day, there will simply be too many to ignore or dismiss.

As for PETA; I disagree with personal battery of the fur-is-murder-red-paint sort, and the group is run by severe nutjobs (if you don't know how severe, trust me, you don't want to), but most of these people just don't want animals to suffer needlessly. You don't have to be a vegan to understand or sympathize with the horrible conditions under which most livestock and far too many pets live. Perhaps if a greater number of "reasonable" people got involved, the nutjobs wouldn't have so much influence--but it's easier to ignore those conditions and complain about the nutjobs. "Cruel" humor is "in." Everyone likes to complain!

Many of the horrible conditions animals suffer are a consequence of a desire for maximized profit through "efficiency"--and eventually, the techniques involved are applied to humans as well. Hence, sweatshops. Companies don't dole out crap wages in third-world countries out of loving benevolence--they're just looking for cheap labor. They'd take slaves if they could--and many sweatshops cross that line. Some businesses are also looking for other "relaxed" laws, such as those regulating pollution and public safety. That's one of the great things about America: the Big Bad Federal Government is always on our backs--and theirs. The system isn't perfect, but it's better than some.

One last side note: someone's bound to want to retort with "If you wanna pay more for everything, fine!!"  The cost of product is determined more by what the market will bear, than what it cost to produce. That's why corporate execs can make such increasingly outrageous inflated salaries year after year: they convince enough softheaded boobs to pay more than they should for almost everything. Now go out and buy a SUV you don't need!! It's big, dumb, and obxonious--I mean, "powerful!" It's, uh,  "good" for the country!! :)

Squishy wrote:
>
> (Vaguely-related side note: I love it when someone
> "discovers" something about other countries. If I had a dime
> for every time some pinhead comes up to me with a look of
> excited glee on his face and blurts out something like "You
> like Japan so much! Well I just found out they have BULLIES
> in their schools!! And child molesters! And CRIME!! And
> PORN!! And some of them have guns too! So, uh...there!!," I'd
> have a buttload of dimes. It's when they poop out the more
> unbelievable horsehockey that I actually get offended: now
> I'm hearing from gun-heads that Japan actually has LOTS of
> crime and gun-related deaths but it's just never reported
> because of the government-Yakuza connection/conspiracy. "You
> didn't know THAT, did you?!? You can't disprove it either!"
> Uh, yeah. Now sit still while I list all of my favorite
> conspiracy theories that may not make sense but still can't
> be disproven...)

I too have ran into folks who make those type of discoveries and love to blab them to me. I have a certain love for the European horror flicks and I always said they can make better horror/thriller. One day, some film buff tells me that "Did you know that Europe has also made some porno flicks? Damn Euro-trash bastards." It's funny he mentions this, especially since the United States of America has also made some porno flicks back in the 70's (and are still being made to this very day) and acts like Europe was the only one. Again, something is just wrong with some of the people in this country! But, every country has inteligent and ignorant people so it's really nothing new to me.

>It's incredible how many people think a bang-bang is their one and only form of
>defense. It must be the whole impressive-noise / penis-substitute / justice
>requires-an-exit-wound machismo thing. Maybe it's just that guns are so simple,
>any fool can use them. Fortunately, science continutes to develop more and
>more effective non-lethal alternatives, and one day, there will simply be too
>many to ignore or dismiss.

 Yes, there are some alternatives, but none is as universal as a gun. Let's look at some;

Karate/self defense - Takes time to become good, isn't always effective unless you're an expert and can be dangerous to try against someone with a gun or knife, again unless you're an expert.

Mace - Illegal in a lot of places, not affective against people who are drunk and/or high.

Pepper Spray - Not always effective, needs to be aimed right in a person's eyes.

Electric stun gun - Illegal in a lot of places, not effective through many layers of clothing, requires you to get very close to the other person.

 Not to mention that none of the above get the immediate respect that a gun will. Often, gun owners avert a violent crime simply by displaying their gun and a willingness to use it to defend themselves. In each issue of the magazine National Rifleman (my father subscribes) is a page of news items pulled from news sources around the country detailing how legal gun owners have used helped to stop crimes, either to themselves or to others. Many of them read like "John Doe was stopped at a light when an unidentified man brandished a knife and demanded that he turn over the keys. The man fled when Mr. Doe drew his handgun and pointed it at the suspect."

Often, gun owners avert a violent crime simply by displaying their gun and a willingness to use it to defend themselves.
*****  Most criminals are like any other predator - they go for the weakest possible prey and give up quickly if any resistance is offered.  It simply isn't worth the risk or time to press an attack once it is resisted.  There are plenty of ways to discourage a criminal without a gun - most involve injecting some common sense into your routine.  All that said, I am a 6'2" 200 pound man who lives in a low crime area, so I'll buy the gun-for-self-defense argument to an extent.  Especially since I've seen so many movies where a licensed gun in the hands of a competent and careful user was all that kept the zombies back.

: )

dam.  it seems like everything has gone on some political tangent recently.  i was just trying to point out these people tend to have fairly illogical arguments and make crazy points.

Flame war? What Flame War? I honestly have nothing against anyone and I don't remember insulting anyone or even insinuating that they were unintelligent or even question their legitimate birth.

I made a few points. I used one (1) personal example as a "shoe on the other foot" type of example, but I NEVER FLAMED anyone. There was no "Jane you ignorant slut" type comments in any of my posts. I'm personally abhorrent of flaming. What did I say that was derogatory or diminutive?

Ash if I flamed someone call me on it and I'll appolgize, but please, re-read my posts. Where's the fire?

So does the other side....people will say anything to get their point across...a trapper once came to our school and showed us a picture of an obviously dead fox in a trap...he tried to tell us that traping doesnt hurt animals, as is displayed by the "sleeping" fox...I guess he didnt think we'd know the difference between dead and sleeping...

The only reason chickens peck each other to death is when they are placed in extremely stressful circumstances...like the extremely overcrowded conditions they are raised in...free range chickens do not have this problem of pecking because they have room to things like breathe.

And as far as the terrorism goes....why don't we just stop buying oil for cars as well?  Oil purchases for synthetic leather make up an extremely small part of the money we spend on oil every year.

wheresthecarrot wrote:
>
> And as far as the terrorism goes....why don't we just stop
> buying oil for cars as well?  Oil purchases for synthetic
> leather make up an extremely small part of the money we spend
> on oil every year.
>
>

Why?

Sing it with me, 1, 2, 3, 4....

Moneymoneymoneymoney....MONEY!!!

And we're talking billions of it.

As far chickens go, only turkeys in captivity drown themselvs in rainstorms.  Creepy.

wheresthecarrot wrote:
>
>> The only reason chickens peck each other to death is when
> they are placed in extremely stressful circumstances

no they will do it as part of their normal behavior regardless of their confinement.  same can be seen in various other species as well.  alpha wolves, etc.  

one of my biggest gripes with animal groups is when they start talking about how farm animals should be free to roam as nature intended.  then they describe animals that have been domesticated for thousands of years and don't exist in nature.  anyone ever seen a herd of wild cattle (and i'm not talking buffalo) or chickens?

I'm sorry, I've lived on and worked at farms all of my life.  Chickens do peck each other, to keep each othe in line, but pecking each other to death only happens if quarters are too cramped...it's a defense mechanism.

And since when does an animal not being naturally occurring species make it and o.k. thing to treat them like crap?

wheresthecarrot wrote:
>
> And since when does an animal not being naturally occurring
> species make it and o.k. thing to treat them like crap?

When did i ever say that?  my whole rant has been against the crazy peta people.

It wasn't necessarilly directed towards you...My point being that just because we domesticated a bunch of animals in no way makes it okay to keep them in the current factory farm conditions they live in.

I don't necessarilly agree with all of PETAs views on animal rights, but they are one of the hardest working animal rights groups out there...people always focus on one idea that they don't agree with, or the "crazy ones" and decide the whole organization is nothing but a bunch of hippie loonatics running around with big signs.  The fact of the matter is, along with some of the "out there" views that some people may hold in PETA, they still have a lot of good in them, and will continue to get my support until something better that is equally as powerful comes along.  It's pretty silly to discount the entire organization because of a few people or things you don't agree with...so what if it's laughable that chickens are noble animals...does the fact that they are not make it any better to torture them for their whole life?  Rather than get caught up in all of the details you may not agree with, try focusing on the overall message....People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals....I would hope that most people would also be for the ethical treatment of animals....I would suggest that anyone wishing to attack any group of people not only do a lot of research about what the group stands for, but also what it is they are fighting against.

have you looked over their manifesto?  90 % of their ideas would be classified as crazy.  they're currently sueing the california milk board because commercials that feature talking cows are "false advertising".  for christs sake!  they're talking cows, of course the commercials aren't intended to be serious.  don't eat meat because it causes cancer.  so does eating vegetables, drinking water and breathing the air but nevermind those.  don't hunt because the deer have enough to worry about in nature without getting shot.  such as disease and overcrowding due to a lack of other predators.  never mind that hunting is regulated in an attempt to keep animal populations from becoming too large or too small.

how many peta members would demand that they or their family members die instead of taking a life saving drug because it was tested on a rat first?

Sigh, I have nothing more to say...I've devoted years and years of research, time, and energy into the animal rights issue.  Inevitably, I've learned that you can try to educate people all you want, but if they aren't ready to listen then it's pointless.  Say what you want about PETA, they're 90% good people supporting a worthy cause.  If more people had their kind of drive and devotion, maybe the world would be a better place.  Unfortunately, apathy is a powerful sedative, and denial is an even more powerful halucinogenic.

Hear Hear! Fight the good fight Carrot! It's just like the south getting a bad rep because some of the people who live there are white superemists. Most of them are decent, kind people.

Reminds me of a joke:

The Irish are some of the kindest, warmest most generous Catholics you'll ever meet.
The English are some of the most gentile, polite and generous protestants you'll ever meet.
Together they make lousy Christians.

wheresthecarrot wrote:
>
> Say what you want about PETA, they're 90%
> good people supporting a worthy cause.  
>

The problem is that other 10%, they and their goofy antics get most of the press, so it is that behavior that people equate with PETA and not the no doubt good they do.  Of all the media stories I have seen about PETA only ONE was a favorable story, the others were just their goofball antics, so this organization has some PR problems (and I don't buy the 'media needs to play fair' line, it's all about getting attention and ratings - what sells gets aired, period) and it needs to get around those problems before I stop thinking about them as a bunch of arrogant nutjobs, and this coming from a moderate that wants humane treatment of animals and applauded Safeway for firing a meat supplier when notified of said suppliers abusive and inhumane practices, but all other reports/commentaries of PETA focus on their attention grabbing stunts, harassing innocents consumers (protesting children singing the Oscar Mayer jingle), and off putting statements (i.e. inferring that a rat's life is more important than a cure for cancer, or something similar).  That being said, real change is being brought about, so for that we should be thankful,

Agreed. I just wish the nutjobs would go away. They arn't needed, they draw attention from sensable people, and they can be dangerious.
I like animals, i see no reason to be unduly cruel. Its getting agreement on just what defines "Unduly" that is the problim.
Flangepart: Planning to hunt deer, next year. And Turkey....don't forget the turkey....hey, i only hunt whats Kosher.....

The problem is that other 10%, they and their goofy antics get most of the press, so it is that behavior that people equate with PETA and not the no doubt good they do.
*****  Agreed.  I'd be all for legislating better conditions for farm animals, even if it raised the price of meat a little.  Outlaw veal?  Fine with me.  I think it's wrong to wear the fur/skin of an animal unless the rest of it is used for meat or something (nobody eats mink meat).  I'd even support stricter guidelines for using animals in laboratory tests - especially those involving animals whose reactions will not be comparable to humans.  

All that said, I wouldn't give PETA a red cent.  Not ever.  Two reasons:

1)  The loonies would get some of that money and put it toward their bizarro agendas.

2)  Their methods.  I don't like fur coats any more than PETA members.  BUT, throwing paint on an old woman??  What a gutless, cruel, stupid thing to do.  As someone on this board pointed out, PETA will get my respect when they start throwing paint across the leather jackets of 6'5" 250 pound bikers.  Anyone who goes outside the law to meet their agenda is missing the point of democracy.

I will most cerainly agree with you on those points....I think throwing paint on fur coats is terrible...it makes it so the animals life is completely wasted....I just didn't want a bunch of people jumping all over PETA as a whole, because they really do have some good causes and good people working really hard....but I agree, the "nut-jobs" need to go.  If they did, I would have to spend so much time defending PETA...I wish they could see that they are actually making things worse instead of better....  : /

Dano has a point... and worse still the wack jobs discredit good work done by the others. PETAs credibility and effectiveness is being sabatoged by the attention grabbing a***oles.