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I know this is kinda off topic here,but does any one else think all these new rock bands suck.They all seem to follow the same basic formula.Some rap mixed with loud guitars a whiny irratating singer and no originality.The bands im talking about particullary are Linkin Park,Hupa Stank(who the f**k names there band Hupa Stank), Syliva,That f**king band who plays Head Strong(I can't remeber there name),and any other band who tries to be way to much like Korn or Limp Bizkit.
And what ever happened to Metallica,there past few album have sucked and there new one is horrible.
It seems like rock has been going to hell since about 1996.What the f**k happened to music that actually moved you, instead of irratate you endlessly.

You gotta look beyond the music vids they play on tv. There are plenty of good rock bands out there its just nobody knows about them.

if you're fed with all the new s**t they on tv you should try stuff like cathedral, orange goblin, black label society and i think slayer are still going.

the best kind of rock to listen to these days is stoner its just real rock and metal.

if that doesnt work just listen to s**t from 1996. i still listen to alice in chains, black sabbath and s**t from well over ten years ago.

rock music was ok until it became commercial now the reord labels start the bands and write and produce the tracks like pop tunes.

'Nothing is sacred to them' as batman once said to robin.wyckednick wrote:

I actually don't mind rap-rock.

Who really cares?  If it's on the radio, then switch stations.



Wyckednick-You mentioned that it makes you mad that bands are trying too hard to be like Korn or Bizkit.  Dude, compare new album from Korn (Follow The Leader-Newest Album) to their old stuff (self titled-Life Is Peachy).  You will be able to tell just how sold out Korn is now.  It's really sad.  What was once an awesome edgy hardcore band is now.....teen pop rock.

The same goes for Bizkit.  Dude, Durst is huge!  I know not one teen who wouldn't know who he is.  I really think that Bizkit has sucked since 3 Dolla Bill Ya'll.  Everything since has been pointless teen pop drivel.  f**k Fred!  Wes was the only thing that band had going for them.  

And when that new cd comes out this summer, I'm going to walk right past it and see what The Bosstones have put out recently.

AND THAT'S MY TWO CENTS!

Rock music doesn't suck any more today than it did when you were younger.  Everyone thinks this way, otherwise how do you account for the popularity of VH1 and VH1Classic.  I'm 35 and think that the 80's music was great stuff, second British invasion and all.

I will concede that some of today's stuff is pretty good though.  In particular, I think that John Mayer, Michelle Branch and Counting Crows are extremely talented.  I can even give "props" to acts like Linkin Park, Avril Lavigne and the pop princesses because they are what they are and don't pretend to be anything else.  They all know they aren't writing Abbey Road, they are just making money.

man you need to check into what's up in the underground. there a bunch of great bands that stem from punk/emo/ and hardcore that are really pushing the limits of rock, way more than any s**t ass band on mtv ever will.

 here's some i'd recommend: Thursday, the Beautiful Mistake, Coheed and Cambria, the Get-Up Kids, Cursive, Modest Mouse.

Good luck!

Most  of Rock Music has now became Alternative Rock Music... And today, Alternative Music is Pop Music... And Pop Music is now Rap (or with hip hop) music...

Its not bad... but that is how it is...

Just remember back in the 70's everthing was Disco... even the Rolling Stones did Disco!

And if anybody has ever listen to Pink Floyd's Final Cut (from early 80's) the song Not Now John has some rap in it (Also, this song is almost never played on the radio because it has the word "f**k" is in it, too)

i have to agree with the tuck stoner rock is the only way to fly great heavy melodic rock definatly influenced by sabbath and a  lot of 70's hard rock but its great i especially love Queens of the Stone Age but also Orange Goblin and Fu Manchu

Wyckednick.....if you don't like it then don't listen to it.

Plain & simple.



Post Edited (06-26-03 13:58)

Just about ALL music sucks nowadays.

Whenever I want to completely drown myself in music, I break out my WOODSTOCK DVD. The director's cut is fabulous.

Otherwise, I just play a few cds from .38 SPECIAL, LYNYRD SKYNYRD, MOLLY HATCHET, ZZ TOP, BLACK SABBATH, BLUE OYSTER CULT, THE DOOBIE BROTHERS, AEROSMITH (from at least 20 years ago), LED ZEPPLIN, THE WHO, STEELY DAN, JETHRO TULL, ALICE COOPER, and some other bands from that era, and I'm happy.

You can heap all of the current glitzy, techno, funko, studio, MTV crappola into one big pile and burn it.

I agree that there is a lot of great underground bands.I listen to them a lot,but it sucks that I can't turn on the radio and hear some good music.Sure they play Alice in Chains,Nirvana,Stabbing Westward,Tool,and Sound garden,but they always play the exact same songs over and over again.
The bands I have goten into lately have been Static-x,Godsmack, American Head charge,Godhead,V-mob,NSA,and System of a down.

It doesn't matter what year it is, you're always gonna have your fair share of Creeds and Salivas on mainstream radio.  But like everyone else has said, try staying away from the mainstream if you want to find music to like.  A lot of mainstream music is generic and boring.  On the flip side, just because it's popular doesn't mean it automatically sucks, either.  Personally I'm a big fan of bands like Pearl Jam, Coldplay, Foo Fighters, and Radiohead, to name a few.  I wouldn't say that they suck, but some people would.  And they are pretty mainstream, for the most part.

On the other hand, the sudden success of bands like Queens of the Stone age is a welcome surprise.  Either way, mainstream music is always gonna have its fair share of crap.  

Nick

When I need the sweet tunes of music to soothe my soul, I turn to my "Very Best of Hall and Oates" CD to keep me going strong.wyckednick wrote:

I sorta gave up on popular rock music in the early 90s when someone decided that plugging a Tele or Strat into a Marshall stack turned to eleven and then strumming it like an accoustic guitar was a good idea.

You need to check out Dream Theater - 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulance or Scenes from a Memory
Racer X - Getting Heavier(Paul Gilbert is a shreading God. Forget what he did with Mr. Big. Check this out and see why he's a legend.)
And Porcuepine Tree - In Absentia is a great album

The good stuff is out there. You just have to be willing to look.

You need to check out Dream Theater - 6 Degrees of Inner Turbulance or Scenes from a Memory

I have "Scenes..." as well as "Images and Words" and "Falling Into Infinity".  I've heard "Awake" as well as a live CD from quite awhile ago.  I've been meaining to get "6 Degrees..."

Like you say, the good stuff is out there, just not on the radio

JUst go buy a Motörhead album. ANY album. Once you hear the awesome power of God's Music, you'll wonder where the f**k your balls have been all these years.

All this talk about stoner rock and no one mentioned Clutch or Sixty Watt Shaman!  Shame!  And if you want some bands that are pure kickass rock and roll, check out Guitar Wolf and Mother Superior.  I've hung out with the Mother Superior guys a couple times (they're also Rollins' band) and they're really cool.
Good music has always had to be searched for, that's why it's so rewarding when you find it.  There are tons of awesome metal bands out there, too.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, metal musicians are the best musicians in the world.  Not just because I'm prejudiced, but that s**t is hard to play.  Take Nick Barker from Dimmu Borgir and Proscriptor McGovern from Absu for example.  When you can drum so fast it sounds like the CD is skipping, that's talent.  And don't get me started on Devin Townsend, the greatest goddamn musician on the planet, hands down.  Also check out Vintersorg, one of the best singers in the business.
Motorhead, f**k yeah.
Point is, buy CD's and screw the radio, there's nothing worth listening to except oldies stations there.
Some links for great music:
www.gemm.com is a great place to find lots of really really kickass s**t.
www.hevydevy.com
www.pro-rock.com
www.orderofthedragon.com
www.dimmu-borgir.com

Brother R

I must say that I enjoyed Linkin Park's first alum. If you think that it is only a mix of  rap and rock, you have missed a lot of their nuances such as a heavy techno leaning, great drum beats and the obvious classic overtones. Unfortunately their second album truly IS garbage.

Now I am not sure what you mean by rock, Michelle Branch, Britney Spears (who I like) and the Boxcar Racers and Get Up Kids  (who I despise) all claim to be some form of rock.

To me, I think the best rock out there is that which lends itself to the old Steppenwolf era. I would say check out Queens of the Stone Age, Maroon 5, and probably the best modern rock band, Nickleback.

If you are looking for Hard Rock, System Of a Down is one of my favorites and Disturbed is nice as well.

And if you mean classic Beatles like rock, I reccomend either the Chili Peppers or Something Corporate. Yes, those are good.

Thanks man ive been needing some place were I can find some good underground metal

I've said it before and I'll say it again, metal musicians are the best musicians in the world.

I would beg to differ :)

Playing fast doesn't really mean you are any good,  It just means you've put in the hours to get faster,  It takes a lot of work, but in the end you are just fast.  That  doesn't make for  a good musician.  I can play bass pretty fast, but rarely do I need to, because from a musical stand point, it raraley fits in the context.  Good musicianship entails knowing what the music needs, and sometimes that requires good technique, and sometimes it just requires good feel.

One thing I've found is that playing straight is a lot easier than playing swing.  There's a difference in playing 'straight eighths' and 'swing eighths'.  In the first, tyou are playing tight on every note, in the second, you are only playing tight on the 1 beat ad everything else is slid just a bit.  Getting a group together to all swing the same and keeping your own swing in that can be a challenge.  Playing straight in 5 or 7 or 9 or others is just a counting exercise and, if you are doing in particularly fast or doing a particularly complicated part, mostly a dexterity exercise. Playing a swing feel in 5 or 7 or 9, etc...is not nearly so mechanical and requires more than just a physical recitation of the part but also a sensitivity to how hard or soft the swing is around you.

One of the hardest and most musicall challenging thins I've had to do is play a fast Be-Bop tune (think Charlie Parker).  Being that the bass part is not established, it's basically an extended improve and you have to be aware of what's going on both melodically and harmonically to improvise a line that makes musical sense, and you can't ever repeat an exact  line or it feels stale and canned.  Playing  4-to-the-bar at 280 bpm is not difficult technically, but doing it in a way that is musically intelligent (ie..working within the harmonic structure for the chord and scale of the moment) as well as spontaneously creative is very challenging. Ironically, you can't really practice the part.   When you practice that kind of stuff, you are not practicing the part and the line but simply getting a better feel for what a line can do in that musical context so that when you play the song for real, you can be more spantanous and intelligent at the same time

FWIW - I downloaded a bunch of Devin Townsend MP3s (Victim, Death, Material, Kingdom).  It was...um...fast.  However it was very harmonically limited and  rhythmically pretty straightforward (and repetitive)

Don't misunderstand me, playing fast like that can be a challenge and doing ti in a band setting with everyone playing up like that can take a lot of work, but there are huge areas of musical mastery in terms on harmonic structure, rhythm , timing, groove, improvisation, dynamics, etc... that you just don't hear a lot of in metal music that the term 'best musicians in the world' is not really warrented



Post Edited (06-27-03 11:20)

anyone esle like sitar music?

I don't pay attention to mainstream, there is nothing bu garbage and it's always been like that for years now, too much nu-metal and pop-punk

most of the best music now is coming from sweden, Opeth and In Flames are my two favorite bands now

other bands I listen to: Death, Carcass, Meshuggah, Pig Destroyer, Novembre, Sentenced, Children of Bodom, Pain of Salvation, Dream Theater, Cryptopsy, Naglfar, the bands I listen to have been around for years and never been on the radio

I mostly listen to progressive metal and death/black metal

I agree music of today generally sucks. That's why you have to look back and listen to music from the 60s- 70s and realize how the music scene then just blows everything now away.  I'm personally into 60's garage rock, psychedelia, punk, and classic rock generally.  Sitars are cool instruments indeed.

Brother Ragnarok wrote:

> All this talk about stoner rock and no one mentioned Clutch or
> Sixty Watt Shaman!  Shame!

SIXTY WATT SHAMAN~! Dude, I heard some of their stuff, just "A Reason To Live," and I LOVE it. If only their albums were carried by the record stores 'round here...

>  Take Nick Barker from Dimmu Borgir and Proscriptor McGovern
> from Absu for example.  When you can drum so fast it sounds
> like the CD is skipping, that's talent.  And don't get me
> started on Devin Townsend, the greatest goddamn musician on the
> planet, hands down.  

ABSU~!~!~ Man, I thought I was the only one that knew of these Texas black metallers. And yes, Townsend is the only good thing to come from Canada...besides wrestlers, maple syrup, and hockey.

what sucks the most about stuff that sucks is everyone LIKES it!  everyone sucks!

BUTT i think suck has always been around it just seems like stuff sucks more now in comparison to the past cos the stuff that sucked 20 years ago people realized it sucked and mercifully forgot about it.

love colleen

Don't worry; sooner or later, there will be another revolution. We've got the same cultural problems today that we did in the 70s-- overwhelming blandness and complacency-- so it's only natural that something will come along, just like punk did in the 70s. I'm not saying that punk is the answer today, though; people have become way too used to it for it to effect change anymore.

As for what current bands I listen to, I usually go for the extreme underground-- guys like Wesley Willis, Jandek, The Residents, the Red Elvises, and the Legendary Stardust Cowboy, as well as the Dr. Demento set. Just about the only current mainstream band I find interesting is the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, though I haven't heard much of them.

Hey Feerless,

I disagree with your thoughts that straight is easier than swing. I play clarinet, piano, and tenor saxophone. Thus I have played both classical, rock and swing music.

I believe and have seen that anyone can play straight counted out 4/4 beats. However, swing is really what makes music alive. While classical compositions do have quite a bit of dramatics and sounds great, look at the number of defined notes, dynamics, tempos, etc. that classical and rock uses to convey its meanings.

In order to play jazz/swing, you MUST understand music itself. Why is pop so popular? because it finds a few notes that are pleasent and mixes them with a plethora of different harmonies, examples would be Britney Spears and Nickleback etc.  However, look at any jazz artist and perhaps even Norah Jones,. They have soaring melodies into upper and lower reaches with a simple, improvised harmony. both styles are fine, but in order to do jazz, you must have an instinctive feel for the music. Not everyone understands the innuendos and variations ofg swing which is why pop is  so much more popular.

I screwed up, the link to Cradle of Filth's site is www.theorderofthedragon.com.
As far as having heard of stuff, like I said in the "what's your job" post, I work in one of the biggest indie record stores in the U.S., so I know about all kinds of stuff no one has ever heard of.

Brother R



Post Edited (04-01-04 04:41)

wow I never thought anybody listened to Absu here

anyone else listen to Dissection?, really good black metal band

I was just using speed as an example.  The ability to coordinate drumming like Absu's and keep up vocals (McGovern is also the vocalist) even if they are screaming is impressive.
Sounds like most of the Devin stuff you got was Physicist, which is his weakest record.  Check out some of the things on Terria and Infinity.
I play a few instruments too, and although I'm self-taught and can't read music worth a damn, I can tell the difference between downpicking at a million miles an hour and playing a complicated riff or harmony.  Nile and Cephalic Carnage are two good examples of bands that play extremely intricate music, especially Cephalic.  Imagine avant-garde jazz fusion played as death metal.  In a song that's six or so minutes long and has probably ten or more timing changes, riff variations, etc, keeping it all in line isn't easy.
I'm not trying to insult other forms of music, I know there are good things that aren't metal.  Mr. Bungle is a great band that isn't metal (just about everything but, in fact, it's kind of hard to classify), but I get that "jazz and blues are more sophisticated" crap at work every day.  Loud doesn't mean no musical ability, it just means it's used in a different way.

Brother R

Avant-Garde is good music, everyone should check out this band

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/153/maudlin_of_the_well.html

they combine death metal, jazz, adult contemporary , progressive rock, best band I've heard in awhile

Thanks for all the input guys ive fond some really cool new bands. Also if your looking for music go to amazon they have a s**tload of underground metal,I was very surprised by there selection.

Dillinger.  That's all I have to say.  The DillingerEscape Plan will silence those that say that 'Jazz and Blues are more complicated!', because this metal band has its roots in those styles.  Off time signatures, complex, complex rhytmic arrangements, (And Mike Patton-from Faith No More, Mr. Bungle-- on the new EP), and major, major pain.  You will be unable to look at metal the same way after these guys.

I'm sorta suprised because I didn't say Jazz was rhytmically complicated or that Rock wasn't. Being a big fan of Rush, Yes, and Dream Theater, I know better than that.  

However, regardless of complexity, rock music usually follows an underlying drive that is based on a stright feel, not  a swing feel.  That's what makes rock sound like rock.  Jazz traditionally uses a sing feel which, while not really any more complicated than a straight feel like in rock, can be very challenging to play live in an esemble because it's all based on how everyone is swinging at the time, very much an 'at the moment' feel, so it requires more musical awareness to what's going on in that moment than does a straight eight feel.  Playing in 7 or 9 is pretty easy if you play it straight and work off an eigthth note count.  But playing in 5 with a swing feel is conceptually pretty simple but the executation is much more subtley demanding, especailly if you are doing it in a manner where the fact that you are playing in 5 is obscured behind the swing feel

The same thing applies to harmony theory.  You rarely see a rock or metal band playing something like Eb7(#9) /  B9(13)  | EM9 / A7(#11)  |  Db9sus  / B9(13) |  Db7sus /  Eb7  | (the opening A section from Charles Mingus' "Goodby Pork Pie Hat")  Yet there is a lot of harmonic information implied within those chords where your basic minor scale or pentatonic riff is just not going to work across those changes.  That sorta extension just isn't used in rock metal under most conditions.  That's not a criticism of rock, rock music just has a certain sound that doesn't need those sorts of chords.  What's evern rarer in rock, especially in the more complicated forms, is full scale band improvisation through those sorts of changes

Making the difficult sound difficult is pretty straightforward, make the very difficult sound so easy that nobody realizes it is a lot harder.

I don't mean to imply that metal  can't be demanding or challenging or complicated or interesting, all I'm saying is that I have a hard time labelling musicians as 'the best in the world' unless they can master techniques that are not normally found within that genre of music.

Dude I know the guys from Dillinger.I have alot of friends who are in bands.Seeing as how you know of Dillinger have you ever heard of NSA(New Society of Anarchy)

No, I'mnot familiar with NSA.  Anyway, Freep, I really, really encourage you to check out Dillinger.  And don't turn it off just at the beginning because you don't like how it sounds--listen for a little longer, and I -DARE- you to count out some of the rhythms.  I suppose the song '43% Burnt' is a good place to start.  It's even got a sweet jazz breakdown in it.  I don't think there's any point in that song with swing feel..but..eh..just listento it anyway.

I don't think there's any point in that song with swing feel..but..eh..just listento it anyway.

Well that's sorta my point :) There are a lot of aspects of music that just aren't found in rock music, at least not usually.  It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with rock music or rock musicians.  It just means that you can't really make a blanket statement like "metal musicians are the best musicians in the world" because there are whole areas of musical mastery that simply aren't found in metal normally.   You definately don't hear it enough to grant that title to the whole group.  That was my point, not that "metal is simple" or "metal is bad" or anything.

I suppose the song '43% Burnt' is a good place to start.

I'm trying but I can't seem to find an MP3 that I can download (mp3.com doesn't like my browser and finding an mp3 that doesn't resolve back to something at mp3.com is proving difficult"

OK, I got a copy of 43% burnt

I -DARE- you to count out some of the rhythms.
Idid.  Although the song has a lot of starts and stops,  it's prety much entirely a 4/4 time signature at roughly 129 bpms. The breaks and starts still work with a 4/4 time.  I figured out the time, set my metronome, started the song, and three minutes in it was still matched up  There's some variation in using an primarily eighth note feel versus a strong reliance on sixteenth notes,  that makes the song seem to speed up and slow down, but it doesn't really.

~sigh~
I dunno even where to begin on this.  Most of the stuff you say sucks, I actually enjoy.  I listen to rap moreso than rock, but most of the bands you mention are more "alternative" than rock.  I'm not into HARD rock... I'd rather my music have some melody than mindless screaming/wailng on guitars.  

I've been impressed by all of Linkin Park's albums, this is the band that you hate that I really like.  Maybe they're not really your style, I guess you just pretty much hate it when they combine rap and rock together.  When it's done well, it's damn good if you're into hip-hop.  

"Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?"

Erf.  Now that I think about it, you're right.  Wait...lemme find a better example.  Hmm.  Okay, Converge.  With at least some of them..I reccomend Two Day Romance or The Saddest Day.  As for Dillinger--what did you think, by the way?--find a few of their instrumental tracks.  I think Calculating Infinity (If I can remember correctly, swing feel out the wazoo..)  would be a good place to start, and check out The Running Board as well.  Ahm...hmm.  Oh, nevermind.  I'm gonna go listen to some Jeff Beck for about nine hours, then some new Radiohead.  Rooock.

Jackflack:
Mindless, no.  There is more artfulness in half of a DIllinger riff, and in half a stanze, than in the entire Meteora album.  The only problem is, it is ANTI-melody.  There's beauty in discord.  Please don't use mindless to describe this type of music, unless it actually IS mindless--there are a LOT of emo/screamo/metal/hardcore bands that blow, and blow hard.  
Secondly, what impressed you about Linkin Park?  I find nothing special.  I'm big into hip-hop, GOOD hop-hop at least, Busta, the Heirogliphix, Diggable Planets was cool, Wyclef, I could go on.  Rap and rock works wonders when done right: Rage Against the Machine proved that.  However, there's just nothing particularly impressive about anyhthing Linkin Park is doing--Chester has a good scream, a good voice, but it's usually layered in too many effects for you to notice, and lyrically, it's inane 'I hate myself' or 'I hate you', or 'There's something wrong with the world' stuff that panders to the preteen crowd.  That' and musically, it's incredibly simple, basic harmonies, basic rhythms, hackneyed hooks, with a little bit of techno influence.  What's the point?  I've heard this all before in To Cut The Sky With Wire.

Jackflap one of my big problems with Linkin Park is that they don't even do Rap/rock well.They suck at it.There singer is sounds like a whiny little b***h most of the time,and the music it self sucks.It just sounds like everything else on the f**king radio.
Ill say im not a fan of rap in fact I hate rap.Ill admit that raping takes some talent but the beats suck.There just the exact same beats from a hundred other rap songs, but they've just had a little tweaking to there sound to try and make them sound not diffrent.The actuall music of rap sucks.

As for Dillinger--what did you think, by the way?

I didn't really care for "43% Burnt" much.  It had some interesting themes in a few places that should've been expanded and worked with for some good potential, but they switched themes so frequently that none of them really had a chance to get established.  It was like watching a movie trailer; short bursts of something that should be expanded.

The drums and guitar spent too much time doubling each other, rythmically. There were a lot of places I thought, especially when the guitar sped up, that if the drums had dropped under the guitar and carried a strong groove underneath the guitar's rhythmic that it would've driven the song much more powerfully.  Having the snare constantly matching the guitar chords, though, weakened the impact.   (There is a part later in the song, right before the outro, that the drummer does back off and plays a straight 2-4 snare hit under the guitar work, for a few measures, that works more effectively than most of the rest of the song.)  Doubling guitar and drums can work, but it works best as a contrast, not a continous pattern

There were a couple of places , in the faster parts, where they slowed down a bit, just a little bit that sounded like the musicians were having a hard time keeping up the parts at that tempo (I noticed it around the 27 to  35 sec mark, for example)  I found this a bit jarring, it's very disconcerting to hear someone trying to play a fast part and have them drag it a bit because they can't quite keep it up.  Better to set a slower temp and nail it then to go for a faster tempo and drag it.

All of this was ruined by a singer, who, well, can't sing.  Yelling one note for three and a half minutes is boring.  The song really had no melody and so there was nothing to really grab the listener's attention and say "listen to this"  Any interesting themes developing in the rhythm section that could've worked and been enhanced with a good melody (from vocals or a second guitar) were totally drowned by and ruined by the vocals

All told, it sounded like an effort by some young musicians who have a fair amount of physical talent and some potentially interesting ideas but who need to get a lot more experience in song craftsmanship to really utilitize those talents and develop those ideas, and find another vocalist

I do like rap and rock when it's combined good. 311, Body Count, Rage Against The Machine, the almighty STUCK MOJO...

The problem is that Linkin Park doesn't combine it good. They're just *NSync with guitars, with an image strategically designed to appeal to teenagers that hate their parents. We in the metal world call them "mallf**ks," because they'll usually be found at the mall hanging near Hot Topic or similar stores.

Of course, I'm not saying you're necessarily one of them. Hell, Linkin Park has some catchy beats, I'll admit that, and "Crawling" isn't too bad. But they're just a boy band trying to be hardcore.

And you can have melody while still being heavy. In Flames, Beyond The Embrace, Black Label Society, Dark Tranquility, and a ton of other bands are good examples.

The Psychopathic Family rappers (ICP, Twiztid, and probably a few others; Esham, I think) all use really good beats. Sure, Violent J of ICP can't rap for s**t, but he's a really good producer.

I would like to say to all of those people who think singers in metal bands can't sing.Let me ask you,do you think you could scream your head off for five minutes with out blowing out your vocal cords, let alone doing it for an eniter show,I don't think so.There is a need for a lot of control when it comes to singing heavy metal.And there is a lot of techniche that goes into it.Look at bands like Fear Factory,Sepultura,Slayer,Cradel of Filth and Strapping young lad.These bands have some great metal singers and I would chalange anyone to sing like them.

I would like to say to all of those people who think singers in metal bands can't sing.Let me ask you,do you think you could scream your head off for five minutes with out blowing out your vocal cords, let alone doing it for an eniter show,I don't think so

I don't know if you're talking to me based on my remarks about Dillinger, but if it is...

Thats not really singing :) Or rather, it's the over emphasis on a small part of singing talent at the expense of many others.

To be a musician, a good musician, involves the coordination of many efforts.  Some are physical, some are mental.  There are some things that are physical that are not too difficult to do that just require hours and hours and hours of doing it over and over again until your muscles can just do it.  Playing fast is one example of such an effort.  Play yuor scales over and over again as fast as you can and you *will* get faster, you *will* develop more endurance, etc.....  but that's just a small part of what being a musician is all about.  Like athletes who work out in the weight room for hours until their muscles get more powerful and the lungs and hearts can work harder for longer.  It's a part of being an athlete, but playing baseball or football is not about lifting weights, it's about taking the physical results of the weight work and applying it within the context of the rules and mental aspects of playing the sport.

And the mental context of music involves aspects of knowing things like what key the song is in, and thefore what the appropriate mode/scale of the moment is, so that the notes work together.  How to build your musical line such that it works with the music lines of all the other instruments (including voices); dynamics (when to go hard and when to go soft for best effect); how to drag or push the beat, intentionally, to change the feel, and about a bazillion other things to think about and respond to musically.

To be a good muscian involves having physical mastery, but then bringing it under the control of the mental mastery of the music

So to defend someone on the grounds that what they are doing is physically difficult makes me thing of an imaginary conversation with a (footbal) defensive lineman: "Dude, do you know how much I can press?", "That's nice but you're too stupid to recognize a draw play so the running back keeps running right through the hole you're supposed to block", "Yeah but I can bench press 500 lbs" "Gee, that's nice, thanks for coming...um...we'll call you..."

Music is the same way, yes the physical prowess can be a lot of work to develop and can be pretty impressive in it's own right, but unless it's harnessed and directed by understanding the music as a whole, it's just a physical exercise, which is just the first step in becoming a complete musician.

Now back to my Reading Zero (http://www.readingzero.com/) CD ("The Actual")...

wyckednick wrote:

"Let me ask you,do you think you could scream your head off for five minutes with out blowing out your vocal cords, let alone doing it for an eniter show,I don't think so.There is a need for a lot of control when it comes to singing heavy metal"

Sorry. The ability to scream for 2 hours does not equal talent. It just means you have strong vocal cords. I have nothing against heavy metal . . . in fact, I like a lot of heavy metal music. But there's no way you can place those singers anywhere NEAR the "great singer" category. Heavy metal is fun and full of energy, but let's not get carried away here. Roy Orbison's voice had a range of something like 8 octaves. THAT is a great voice. And I can't ever remember him screaming his way through a song.

For what it's worth, this does relate to "bad movies" in a way.  I rarely think about a movie in terms of "is it good or bad" but merely "Did I enjoy the experience", because a lot of what I like cannot be considered 'good' by almost anyone's analysis of either the skill that went into it, or the results.  

Music is the same way.  I happen to really enjoy AC/DC, ZZ-Top, and George Thoroughgood.  Now, most of their music is extremely limited and if you break it down and analyze it, you coudn't really say the musician's are all that good compared to many others on their respective instruments (Lessee..Angus Young or Al DiMeloa?...I like Angus playing but, let's be real, he's not in the same league as DiMeola).  It's the difference between a subjective enjoyement and objective criticism.

I mean, I happy to like "Zone Troopers" and "Dollman" and "Trancers".  They are enjoyable for me to watch and that's all I care about.  But if someone gets you and says "Tim Thomerson and Art Lefleur are the greatest actors in the world" then my reaction is going to be "c'mon, let's get real here"

Similarly, there is a big difference between saying "I love ____" and "____ is the best [band|musician|genre|etc] in the world".  The first is an expression of a personal subjective opinion, the other invites object comparision and criticism

Roy Orbison's voice had a range of something like 8 octaves

Also consider Jazz greats, like Ella Fiztgerald, or opera singers who can sing at very loud levels for extended time periods and still maintain full tone and clarity and pitch, without resorting to yelling.  *That's* control

Dillinger Escape Plan is good, one of the first metalcore bands I ever downloaded. They're one of my favorite mathcore bands too.

Tom Araya (Slayer), Dani Filth (Cradle Of Filth), and Max Cavalera (ex-Sepultura, back when they were good) cannot SING. They're good VOCALISTS, but they can't SING good.

Their vocals work well with their music but the best singers in metal are Mikael from Opeth(prog death metal band), the guy from Katatonia(doom metal), guy from Novembre(doom metal band), and the guy from Soilwork(swedish thrash band).

Jesus H. Christ, okay, calm down everyone.  I should never have said metal musicians are the best in the world.  Freep is right, it was just an opinion.  Sometimes people get uppity defending their opinions, and I'm no exception.
1.  I didn't mean every musician in every metal band ever is better than everyone else.  There are more sucky metal bands than there are good ones, just like any other genre of music.  I meant that I think the BEST of all metal musicians can top or at least equal the BEST musicians in any other genre.
2.  The vocalist bit, yeah screaming doesn't equal good.  It can be hard, but Corpsegrinder from Cannbal Corpse is a boring crappy vocalist in a boring crappy band.  Devin or Vintersorg for example, can do absolutely amazing things doing clean vocals, scream in a range of notes and octaves and not just growl, and do it all in the same LIVE show without losing their voices night after night, which is pretty goddamn impressive.  And that ungodly shriek that Dani from Cradle does, I've never heard any other vocalist do that and I'll bet even power metal guys are jealous.
So, let's everyone just go back to the kinds of music we like and not get mad at each other for thinking everyone else's taste sucks ;)

Brother R

As for Dillinger--They DO have a new vocalist now.  Mike Patton, from Faith No More, probably the wierdest vocalest ever, did an EP with Dillinger.  I hughly suggest it, it's lots and lots of fun.  Maybe not that great, but a darn good time to listen to, I suggest 'Hollywood Squares'.

I didn't like that Mike Patton and Dillinger album much, vocals got too wacky for me. They got some smaples at mp3.com from that album. Only DEP album I got is Calculating the Infinity.

My experience with "Metal Muscians" is that they are extremely one-dimesional. They can't jam, they're timing is the pits, and they can only play a whacked-distorto guitar. And nowadays, they play with one finger. To even speak about them in the same breath as Charlie Parker is laugh-inducing.

Are you trying to say that the growls/screams/screeches in many forms of metal don't fit the music? Because I have a hard time hearing Bruce Dickinson sing in his operatic voice while the boys from Cannibal Corpse blast out "Devoured By Vermin"...

NiGHTS wrote:

> Jackflack:

I will answer for him

> Mindless, no.  There is more artfulness in half of a DIllinger
> riff, and in half a stanze, than in the entire Meteora album.

I havent listened to Dillenger yet, but I have downloaded some of the songs. I am not a fan of Meteora, it sucks. but I love Hybrid Theory.



> Secondly, what impressed you about Linkin Park?  

I found them to be an interesting band that can sing, scream and rap in balance. THey use many great loops, have a lot of guitar talent, and have done more than just combined rap and rock, but also have a great trechno flavor, in fact they have one song, Mr. Robot I think, which is all techno and rock/rap drum beats, no lyrics.
Lastly, i love how they incorporate the classical piano, while simple, it is very attention grabbing, they actually seem to realize music in all forms.


  Rap and rock works wonders when done right: Rage Against
> the Machine proved that.  However, there's just nothing
> particularly impressive about anyhthing Linkin Park is
> doing-- it's inane 'I hate myself' or 'I hate you',There's something wrong with the world'

I dont know, I am not a big Rage fan and their lyrics dont seem all that much wiser. How many bands really have to oppose the government and stuff. I will give you that Linkin Park's theme isnt original, but at least it isnt as obnoxious as Rage.

stuff that panders to he preteen crowd.  That' and musically, it's incredibly
> simple, basic harmonies, basic rhythms,

Everyone needs someone to play too. Rage I think goes for the off mainstream crowd. Oh well, I dont think who they play too effects their music. And Why is simple bad. Have you ever heard of minimalist music, it is some of my favorite since it emphasizes the change when it comes. Even if you hate their music, you must admit most pop tunes and techno are simple but catchy. I think Linkin Park starts with a simple melody and then expands it till it is a full blown cacophony of sound.


>
>

while the boys from Cannibal Corpse blast out "Devoured By Vermin"...

Ah..yes...the infamous 'Cookie Monster Vocals' technique :)  Sorry but I have a hard time listening to this kinda of stuff because in my mind's eye all I can see is Cookie Monster singing "C is For Cookie" really fast with an attitude

Are you trying to say that the growls/screams/screeches in many forms of metal don't fit the music?

Like I said, there's a difference between what you like and what actually takes musical talent to do.  If you like it, who cares?  but don't claim it takes any musical skill to do it, either.

For what it's worth, I listened to "Pounded Into Dust" before writing this and, no, I don't think the 'vocals' fit the music very well :)  A freakin' melody would help a lot.  I actually imagined ruce Dickenson singing "Run To The Hillls" over the music and it would've been a definite improvement



Post Edited (07-03-03 14:08)

I think Linkin Park starts with a simple melody and then expands it till it is a full blown cacophony of sound.

I listened to a few of their songs and they sound like a boy band with distorted guitars.  "New Kids In The Park" or something

Sorry, I just don't see how anybody can say that dark, bassy, angry growling doesn't fit dark, bassy, angry music. If a death band, like say Murder Squad, were to have clean vocals, I don't think it would work nearly as well. The music is distorted, "mucky" (best word I could think of for it), aggressive, and dark. Having a singer that sounds like he's singing showtunes wouldn't fit it at all (although I do think it would be a nice contrast).

Freep, have you ever heard Shadows Fall? Check 'em out. The guitarists do a nice balance of hardcore metal riffing with classical pieces.

I used to hate the growls until I heard Opeth, which does both singing and growling. It's hard to do the growling thing concert after concert, theres a technique to keep your throat from bleeding. Cannibal Corpse is a medicore death metal band so I know people would hate them.

Shadows Fall is good at balancing music, their last album was even called "Art of Balance"

I hear everybody bash the growling of a lot of metal bands now I can't stand the constant growl but as mentioned before if they combine some great singing with it.

One band I absolutely love that does this is Mudvayne. Not only to the combine the growl and singing but they have real musical talent. Not to take anything away from the other bands but listen to the songs Prod, Death Blooms or even Nothing to Gain. And tell me if you can follow the directions they are taking the songs.

Sorry, I just don't see how anybody can say that dark, bassy, angry growling doesn't fit dark, bassy, angry music.

Probably for the same reason that crashing garbage can lids doesn't fit "Night On Bald Mountain" :)  You can do dark angry  music and still keep it musical.

 It also helps to have a contrast where each instrument fills a role in the total tonal spectrum.  Bass guitar and drums and electric guitar and voice normally don't sit in the same frequency range.  Or conversely, you get a better overall tonal blend if each instrument sits in it's own tonal space.  If the bass and the guitar are in the same frequency range, it gets muddy and you lose clarity.  If you can have the bass in one range and the guitar up higher, the bass has more power and the guitar has more cut.   Same with vocals.  If you drop the vocals into the electric guitar spectrum too much and they are both taking the same approach (same general frequency range and same broken up tone) then the loose distinction, and more importantly, you miss out on how much the voice can really add to the whole musical sound.

Just like in a movie, timing and characters matter.  The action makes more impacvt of you build to it and then let it down.   The "band of marines" is boring if the don't have their own personality and character and contributions.

have you ever heard Shadows Fall? Check 'em out.

I did...tried out "Thoughts Without Words" and "Destroyer Of Senses". They sounded a lot better when the added vocal melody in parts of the songs.  Didn't really here any classical flavors, but it was decent metal

Well, Captain Coffeehouse, you've obviously been listening to the s**t that MTV tries to pass off as metal these days, like Staind and Linkin Park.  Before you get all snooty you should listen to some REAL metal.  Then, after listening to it a couple of times, try to play it.  If you and one of your stuck-up jazz buddies can master the dual guitar harmonies of Shadows Fall or handle keeping up with the 2000bpm drum machines of Agoraphobic Nosebleed, then come back and be a dick some more.

Brother R

May I just pop in for one more defense of DIllinger?  If not, I'm going to anyway.  Neagh.  Dillinger is anti-hook.  A DIllinger song is not meant to be fun to listen to, it's not meant to sound good.  It is, for lack ofa better term, controlled chaos.  That is all. :)

Dillinger Escape Plan songs are for going crazy, at their concerts lots of fans start fights.

About Mudvayne, I wouldn't say they have death growls, they're really just alternative metal aka nu-metal but they're a lot better than a lot of other nu-metla bands. I have their LD 50 album, it's good.

Best Shadows Falls song is "Somber Angel". They do have one song with the best solo I've ever heard on their Of One Blood album, I forget the name of it.

I agree with the person that said they liked John Mayer. A lot of people are ignoring him because of "Your Body is a Wonderland", but if you dig deeper, you'll find that he is quite the blues guitarist. I watched a friends copy of his dvd, and it was amazing. My favorite song? Covered in Rain. A great blues song.

I haven't listened to the radio in years.  I turn it on, give it about 5 seconds, then slip in a CD.  I'm mostly into the hair-metal stuff form the '80s - Dokken, Whitesnake, Def Leppard, etc.  Also like Pat Benatar, The Cars, and all that.  New Wave music is cool too, like they played on the radio when I was in high school in the early '80s.  And there's always the classic stuff, Zeppelin, Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath.

I mostly like stuff I grew up with.  Let the kids these days grow up with their crap - I've already got my music :)

I mainly listen to film soundtracks and exotica/lounge type stuff, and other old music, especially classic country music.   Over the last few years I've noticed that I've become less and less interested in rock music or most modern music.   It just does nothing for me, not even most of the stuff I used to like.  Sometimes I'll listen to it for nostalgia value but that's about it.  There are a couple of rock/pop CDs I still listen to occasionally but it's not really what I'm interested in most of the time.
I listen to some stuff on the radio and it's okay but not something I would want to have in my collection.

However, I do know at least a few people my age or older who are really unhappy with the decline in popularity of guitar-oriented rock.

Amen, brother - MODEST MOUSE.

But I have to say my ears belong to Radiohead, who have become the most talented and original group to come out of the 90's. They aren't afraid to change and seem to do all they can to move away from this new scene. Sure, you might say they're not rock anymore, but anyone who could listen to their old stuff will find something in the new stuff worth hearing.

Ever since Rap has become part of Rock music stations I have not been able to listen to them any more.  Maybe I'm just becoming a fuddy duddy but I would rather listen to country music or the oldies than all the new crap that's out.  I used to like the heavy metal bands but it just seems they lost something over time.  I know exactly what it is.  Most of the music that metal is today relies too much on the "Dark" side of life.  Where are the fun songs?  I can listen to it once but to listen to it over and over, forget it.

Heavy metal was NEVER about the "fun" side of life. What you're referring to is known as "glam rock," or "cock rock." Hell, Black Sabbath was the first metal band, and they're known as an EXTREMELY depressing band. Metal's always been about focusing on the negative aspects of life, and anybody that tells you otherwise needs a smack offside the head.

Of course, then there's power metal...but most power metallers are flamers, trust me. Anybody that listens to Stratovarius for anything other than the guitar work needs a kick in the head. Although Iron Maiden and Helloween and Onward rule you all!

Ah, Maiden. I love Maiden. Songs about love, death, history, politics, drugs, mythology...whatever. And it's all great. ALL OF IT. I have yet to hear a BAD Maiden song. How many bands can say they don't have any BAD songs?!

If we're talking about kickass power metal bands, don't leave out Nevermore.
And Cricket, all that stuff you're hearing on the radio, ain't metal.  They don't play real metal on the radio anymore.

Brother R

For me Metal has always been about pumping me up, and getting me ready to kick ass.There is nothing like some All Out War, Fear Factory, SYL or Hate Breed to get your adrinaline pumping.
And as Brother said they don't play real Metal on the radio any more.

Maybe the metal I remember wasn't what they are taking about, I grew up in the 70's and 80's when there was Dokken, White Lion, Def Leopard, Firehouse, AC/DC,  the big hair bands.  I was never really interested in the ones that like to do the screaming and wailing at the top of their lungs like they do nowadays.   I remember when they were banning songs and all the kids wanted to buy the music just because of it being banned.    I think the song I want your Sex was the first one and then after that all this other stuff started coming out after it that would probably have been banned if some parents would have had their way.  Erotica's video was banned from MTV if I remember right and now they play it.  I guess censoring things mean that it has to be extremely bad compared to what it used to be about 20 years ago.  I think rock music needs better censorship so that the "good" music can make a comeback.  I don't like turning on MTV and seeing something playing about someone killed this person or I'm going to kill you and your mother too type of attitude.

"I don't like turning on MTV and seeing something playing about someone killed this person or I'm going to kill you and your mother too type of attitude."

If you hear that on MTV, it's probably in a s**tty gangsta rap song, dude.  Nu-metal like Disturbed may say stuff like that, but once again, most real metal isn't like that.  Sure there's the gore/death metal subgenre like Cannibal Corpse that writes EXTREMELY graphic versions of that kind of stuff just for the pure shock value.  Most of those bands are good for a laugh, but musically pretty crap.
Most of the best metal bands come from Europe and write songs about trolls ;)

Brother R

TO VH1 classic we wont you to play hollyan on tusday the 2ed of may

Punk's stupid! Disco sucks! Punk's stupid! Disco sucks! Punk's stupid!

Tell us what you think doesn't suck.

Rock and Roll will never die.

Most rock music today was best described by an old housemate of mine...

"Boy bands with guitars"

I mean, calling Sum 41 punk? Sid Vicious may not have known how to play bass at first, but I'm quite sure he's a little more punk than most of todays so-called punk! The Exploited and UK Subs are two of the original punks bands that are still going, so they still rule!

As for alternative music in general today...there is none. Well, a slight exaggeration, there's Disturbed, Static-X, and....and...well. Bands like Sepultura (later to make Soulfly), Pantera seem to have faded with the rest of 'em.

That's when i just listen to some of the, what the little puppies in music today have the cheek to call "Old school" rather than "Real rock"...bands like U2, Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath, AC/DC, Motorhead, Suicidal Tendencies, The Sex Pistols, Senser, Megadeth, Kreator, Alice Cooper, Slayer, The Sisters of Mercy, and loads more...when music meant something more than being a teeny bopper trying to make cash...

You will not find good music on mainstream radio unless you are very,very lucky.

The internet is your friend, as is college stations and underground radio.  Find a musical niche you enjoy on the internet, and then brance out from there into all genres.  People that pigeonhole themself into only a small corner of the musical world are limiting themselves terribly.

One more things, when I noticed what wyckednyck regards as metal: All Out War, Fear Factory, SYL or Hate Breed, etc.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH......


HAHAHAH....

Ha...

Oh, wait, you're probably not joking.  Okay.  Um.  Here, try these bands on for size, probably a few of the only examples of 'real' metal still around that isn't based on super-simplistic chugga-chugga guitar parts and inane breakdowns:

In order of ass-kickingness:

Unearth (Still kind of simple, but probably the epitome of the type)
Goodnight Violet (More complex, semi-intelligent)
Daughters (Noise-metal.  Hurts my balls when I listen to it.  Um.  In a good way.)
Dillinger Escape Plan (Math-Metal.   Exceedingly complex, basically a packaged mindf**k)
aaannd..Converge.  You -need- to listen to the album entitled Jane Doe.  It's about as fun to listen to as getting a root canal, but it's like the best root canal you've ever had.

I already listen to Dillinger, Converge, and Unearthed, Nights.

Nights, SYL is more metal than all the things you just listed combined.  Dillinger is good, but still mostly a hardcore band, as is Unearth.  I will, however, agree with you that Hatebreed sucks.  But if you think that this handfull of hardcore bands are some of the only examples of "true metal" left to the world, you are very sheltered and sadly mistaken.  Here's a (very) small list of bands of various kinds you should check out if you want it proven that REAL metal is still alive.
Cephalic Carnage
Mastodon
Nile
Absu
Melechesh
Dimmu Borgir
Vintersorg
Hollenthon
Nevermore
Borknagar
Amon Amarth
Exodus
My Dying Bride

Enjoy,
Brother R



Post Edited (04-04-04 04:12)

My bad.  In my regular speech, I usually use 'metal' and 'hardcore' pretty interchangeably.  It's really in my inflection "Metal"=hardcore.  -METAL- = metal.

Got me?

Neither do I.

Um.  Either way, check out my cousin's -METAL- band at www.steelrainmetal.com

They make me smile.

Are MY Dying Bride still going? They were cool!

I still love listening to Stormtroopers of Death and Gwar. not everyones cup of tea, but at least the sound is beefy compared to todays pseudo-metal.

Indeed they are.  My Dying Bride just released a new record called "Songs of Darkness, Words of Light."  I haven't picked it up yet (spending all my money on Hellboy viewings and the new Clutch record), but it's on the list.

Brother R

My Dying Bride's music is awesome, but I think the vocals are terrible. At least for the Like Gods Of The Sun album, which, truthfully, is the only one I have by them.

Other awesome metal bands you must check out:
Inheritance - http://inheritancemetal.cjb.net (local death band that, even though I don't get along with its members, is awesome)
Sound Like The Hu-Man - http://soundlikethehu-man.cjb.net (local FxCKED UP band, with elements from funk, grindcore, death metal, grunge, and everything in between, two of whose members I've been friends with since the 4th grade; and yes, the name is from ROBOT MONSTER)
Black Label Society (if you haven't heard of 'em already, you suck)
Venom (black metal pioneers)
Theatre Of Tragedy (goth/metal, with a different sound for each album)
Susperia (at least the first album, which is amazing blackened thrash)

Theatre of Tragedy were excellent, especially on Aegis.  Too bad they turned into a crappy techno band.
Susperia rules. I don't understand why so many people love the first record and hate the second, they didn't change their sound at all.  This band just goes to show the black metal stereotype is true - there are many different bands, but only about 8 people involved in each one, and they just keep interchanging personnel to form new bands.  Tjodalv, the original Dimmu Borgir drummer, left after Spiritual Black Dimensions to form Susperia, along with guys from Satyricon and a few others as well.
And BLS, well, it's Zakk Wylde.  He uses a logging chain for a guitar strap.  That about sums that up, I think ;)

Brother R

Amen.

Rock does suck now a days, I gave up and listen to stricly Led Zepplin, Jimmy Hendrix and Eric Clapton. Rap does suck, Pop does suck and Rock does Suck! Give me some f**kING Guitar solos, a drum solo anything, f**k. If i have to hear that f**king Tipsy song again im gona kill myself. Rap in my eyes is a get rich sceem that works for any one willing to degreat them selves as a musicians. One band i do listen to that I was a live for was Sublime the last good band. even thought ehy are almost 10 years done and Brad is dead they are still the best recent band and any one agrees with send a message.
I ask everyone to join the revolution and to f**k RAP!
Listen to Led Zepplin
Listen to Jimmy Hendrix
Listen to Eric Clapton

your are right rap sucks

I like Gangsta rap (early 90s) It reminds me of 1st grade, I had no idea what they were talking about, but it was cool. Rap now is annoying for the most part. But the majority of what is played on modern rock stations is annoying too, all of the people at my school who listen to that kind of music (indie or garage rock) have really bad hair.

Ah yes the great topics never die.
95 and counting.

Cool, we got some metal fans here. I've never been a Theater of Tragedy fan though. Agalloch and Novembre are my top doom/gothic bands. But I'm into goregrind (especially stuff off razorback records) and progressive metal (Kayo Dot) as well.

It's just the mainstream that sucks, not a single genre. I can't stand all the pop rap (especially that new D12 song with annoying Eminem) and pop rock (Good Charlotte and Slipknot, yuck) going on. But I got my underground stuff, so the mainstream can die for all I care.

I actually kinda like D12 a little bit. I think Eminem is a genius, as far as mainstream rappers go, and considering the list of bands I regularly listen to, that says something.

Goregrind, eh? Never been a big fan of it. I love some of the uber-heavy brutal death, though. Nile is AMAZING, both in terms of heaviness and the intricacy of their work. Murder Squad isn't too bad, like I said earlier. More into melodic death, though, and thrash metal. Still need to pick up the new Exodus.

Goregrind is good stuff if you're into Carcass before their Heartowrk album. Carcass is like the basis of all goregrind. Pre- and Post Heartwork era Carcass are both amazing though.

I listen to a lot of melo-death too. Omnium Gatherum is the last good one I heard. Then there's Acid Death(very underrated band), Amon Amarth, Diabolical Masquerade (awesome band that combines horror movie soundtracks with avant garde melodic black metal), Edge of Sanity, and Opeth (who I think everyone has heard by now). Gothenburg bands are starting to sound generic though. Most of them sound like At The Gates.

       Wyckednick,I really know what you mean,for this music has all stayed the same for the last ten years since Nirvana(and Kurt Cobain) died,for it's been all of nothing but the same style of music that's either outdated grunge,offbeat musical mixtures(Ska,rap,reggae,techno,goth,disco,R&B,bluegrass,etc.),or just the same ole crappy rap-rock that we've been plagued with since Korn sprung onto the scene.
       I keep crossing my fingers,praying that something new leaps out from nowhere and overtakes the music scene like Nirvana did(soapy pop muzak,country, and "American Idol" LaHooZaHers definitely aren't it!!!),for it's right about now time for all of these Korn/Limp Bizkit/-esque bands and post-Nirvava/nu metal rock bands to loudly die before the taste for quality music begins to die for everybody,for hopefully one of those non-nu metal acts on "Headbangers Ball" will be the breakthrough artists that we all desperately need to save rock music from going twelve feet under.

Mastodon is starting to get big. Hopefull they'll sweep off all the nu-metal garbage.

Anyone notice Ozzfest's lineup this year? They're getting more metalcore bands now and less nu-metal. So it's a sign that music is going to change.

Statements like this are, pretty much, a sure sign of growing up.  It's not that mainstream music doesn't suck (it pretty much does) - it's that Mainstream music has sucked for a long, long time - but we always look back more fondly at the music we heard the most of growing up.

Rock was in hell in the 90's, IMHO.  New Kids on the Block, a classic example.  But, in an unpopular move, I think Nirvana was as much a part of the problem as anything else.  It brought Grunge to the fore, and it wasn't even that good - it just happened to get a video on MTV, and it was different.  

Nirvana's music was repeditive, and (IMHO) all the same - "My life sucks, Love is s**t, I want to die..."  It was crap, but it got gobbled up because it was different, rather than because it was good.

Today's music is an extension of what got started in the ninties - repetitive pop crap, and bands in a constant state of immitation and repetition.  The underground scene is better, but I don't like the sort of music most of the underground scene is producing right now anyway, and as soon as they go mainstream, they go to hell anyway - witness Slipknot.  They were really something else when they were playing clubs and small gigs here in Des Moines,

Now, I like to call them "Slip-bizcuit".

Me?  What do I listen to?  Movie soundtracks, showtunes, Irish folk music...  My CD collection includes titles by The Chieftains, the Wolfetones, the Furies, a variety of original Broadway and London casts (Rent, Les Miserables, Cats, Phantom, and so on).  I've also got some Charlie Parker and some Benny Goodman (can't beat that ancient swing stuff - you really can't).  Dr. John is a varitable god of music to me, and Professor Longhair rules, too.

But my statement stands - 90's music wasn't any better than the newer stuff.  It was just newer, and has gotten a bit nostalgia filled.  

wyckednick wrote:

> I know this is kinda off topic here,but does any one else think
> all these new rock bands suck.They all seem to follow the same
> basic formula.Some rap mixed with loud guitars a whiny
> irratating singer and no originality.The bands im talking about
> particullary are Linkin Park,Hupa Stank(who the f**k names
> there band Hupa Stank), Syliva,That f**king band who plays Head
> Strong(I can't remeber there name),and any other band who tries
> to be way to much like Korn or Limp Bizkit.
> And what ever happened to Metallica,there past few album have
> sucked and there new one is horrible.
> It seems like rock has been going to hell since about 1996.What
> the f**k happened to music that actually moved you, instead of
> irratate you endlessly.
>

Grumpy Guy wrote:

"Slipknot. They were really something else when they were playing clubs and small gigs here in Des Moines"

Do you live in Iowa?

Brother Ragnarok and I both do....I live in Cedar Rapids and he lives in um....the boondocks...up north past Waterloo.



Post Edited (05-04-04 00:04)

Is this the longest thread on the site?

As for Rock music here's the truth alot of these famous pop-bands like Linkin Park and so on, most are just posers that can't play but apparently girls love them. There are some decent ones out there. I like Dave Matthews, Nickle Back is decent, and Three Doors Down is okay actually, but your best bet is to stick with older music like Eric Clapton, Bruce Springsteen, or Burdon (none of his new stuff though shows what happens of being years as a space cadet and not in the NASA form of the word) or you can kisten to jazz and blues or better yet classical. I am not a rap or hip-hop type of guy anyways.

if it wasnt for music piracy this era of crappy music would be over already
not that im blaming napster i loved it, but theres certain bands i wouldnt of never even gave a chance if i had to buy there album

Get the Led out

why would any one watn to be like korn or limp bizkit

yeah, if you listen to the radio it sucks but there are hundreds of great bands on small labels. for rock try HOUSE OF LARGE SIZES or the larger known LOCAL H...etc...etc. CAVIAR out of chicago (as is local H...they do drugs together) and BOX-O-CAR (chicago too). every city has small labels that are putting out good shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiite. the only good thing on the radio are the white stripes, the hives, etc.

I agree with whoever wrote that we need guitar solos and drum solos. Hard, alternative, garage rock is all we see in the music scene nowadays, as far as rock goes. I totally agree that rap does not belong with rock. When I listen to alternative bands now, all i hear are chords covered up by distortion. Classic rock really is the best. Jimmy Page, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, David Gilmour... they all contributed to music more than guitarists do now. When I listen to mainstream alternative music, I hear absolutely NO guitar solos, drum solos, or the such. Rock n roll in the past had great feeling in it. When you listen to the music, you can FEEL those long high pitch notes on the guitar, something we clearly don't hear nowadays. I do read about some people trying to bring back rock n roll, but so far I haven't seen any success at it. I dont know of ANY underground bands that play old style rock n roll either. Anyone know??
I'm barely a beginner at guitar, but what I'd really like to do is bring back PURE rock n roll, bluesy kinda rock, and old progressive rock, kind of like Led Zeppelin/Pink Floyd/Rolling Stones style rock. If only there were more young people out there who play the style of music played back then, then it really would make a big impact. Then we can say goodbye to bad rock, rap rock, hip hop, WHATEVER! But yeah...I really hate to see where music will go in the next 5 or 10 years. We just really need to bring back REAL rock n roll. Long, high pitch guitar solos for everyone!!

- R.Kupo

like f**king hel i'm not bowing to anyone

The thread that will not die.

Basically, with the music playing today, its a middle school girl's heydey.  There are good bands out there, but few and far between.  1995 is probably when things started going down s**tter.  Now, its all fad bands.  Limp Bizkit isn't cool anymore.  Trapt, good charlotte, marilyn manson, and all those other fag bands are a joke.  Guitarists like Hendrix and Dimebag are pretty much gone.  So, the only solution i can think of is to assassinate these bands.  We need to start a cult so we can go to these concerts and mob them off the stage.  Then, dismember them and eat the pieces.  Its the only reasonable solution out there.

yes.. MM has sold out and its kinda f**ked up. Bands like Korn and MM where great back in the day now they have been sucked up of their original energy and have been replaced with a easy to label pop chip that can be factory produced. It isn't unique anymore. Just boring. This is why i stick to the underground...

The problem with the music industry today is that it is now a part of American corporate life.  Any segment of american society that has profit potential is run by corporate CEO's, accountants, psychologists, lawyers.  That is what America is about now.  These people know that most people will listen to anything that is popular because most people don't like what they like from their own experience, they like what the crowd likes, so they try to either create cool music, or profit off music that is already popular.  However, this kind of business stifles creativity because unproven qualities are discouraged.  Anytime a band starts to be creative, build it's own fan base, and finally create great music, some record company comes along and offers them millions of dollars to start doing things the record company's way.  How many people do you know (Including yourself) would say no to fame, fortune and accolation?  When I was young in the 1970's, everybody I knew listened to the radio. My parents, friends, family all listened to the newest hits that came out on AM.  This continued on until about the eighties, when all music started to sound the same.  All love ballads started to have that same piano sound, all new radio songs started to sound like they were being made for certain segments of society.  There was still good music coming out, but the creatively diffferent songs seemed to be fewer and farther between, radio stations seemed to become more specialized, and I noticed that most people over 40 quit listening to the radio.  In the 90's, this trend continued on until just about everybody over 25 quit listening to new music.  Now, music seems to be tailor made for youngsters.
         When I was 10-12 years old, I had two neighbor friends named Jim and Mike.  They loved disco, Saturday Night Fever, KC and the Sunshine band.  I always listened to Black Sabbath, Foghat, BTO, Peter Frampton.  Sure enough, after a couple of years, They couldn't stand disco anymore. They became fans of new rock, which had just become popular.  These are the kind of music fans that the music industry courts now.  Most people are psyhologically proven to act this way.  If you are one of the few fringe listeners who have unique taste, you are screwed.  There may be bands out there writing exciting new music which you might appreciate, but there is absolutely no way to find their music.  They are unknown bands who will never be popular.  
         The music industry is in the Dark Ages.  I have been saying this for at least 15 years now, and confirmation of my opinion will be on PBS Thursday May 27 at 9PM.  The Frontline program "The Way the Music Died" will confirm most of what I have believed for years.  I can't wait to see this!  This show talks about the decline of the music industry.  These pricks care about one thing-MONEY.  What you want to hear is meaningless.  
          Radio stations are the same way, owned by huge corporations who only care about maximizing profits.  They don't give a s**t about what you want to hear!  They play songs that the indies (the Payola launderers, inserted to make payola legal) pay them to play so you will hopefully catch on to the songs and buy the overpriced CD.  Radio stations basically serve as advertisement services for record companies and their lousy "artist de-jour".  Even their formats suck!  They have those moronic morning shows just because some psycological pricks decided that people like to hear some a***oles talk mindlessly about nothing in the morning on their way to work, and then after 10 a.m. they start their CD advertising machine.   You can hear the same song 10 times on one station in one day!  The radio is not for your entertainment  anymore.  It is only a tool for the corporate moneyline.  Radio Stations have "target" audiences-American Sheep.  That is the focus of all American economics.  Selling things to American Sheep.  And by the way, the music industry will never have much originality again. At least not in America.  America will always be about money, and that will never change.  Why not?  Because most  Americans are just plain stupid!  We could demand change, but we aren't smart enough.  We are happy to go on as slaves to unchecked Capitalism.  Don't get me wrong, I apprieciate a strong economy as good as the next guy.  I am not an ultra liberal, I just believe that we can't let corporations run over our lives in every respect!

*picks up wooden stake coated in garlic juice and silver dust, begins frantically stabbing "Rock Music Sucks" thread in the heart*