Badmovies.org Forum

Swords or guns.
The eternal battle for film dominance.
Which will prevail?

My question is : Which film battles with the wepons in mentioned work best for you, and why?
I think swords are more instinctivly understood, then bullets.
Andrew can answer this better then i can, i'd bet, but is it not true, that firearms marksmanship is too...abstract ,for most people to appreciate?
Unless you have expariance shooting, and in a high stress environment (Combat or dangerious game at close range), it comes across as more of an intellectual concept, then an emotionaly connecting event, the way a good sword fight can.
Soooo....
We can watch the moves in a sword fight, and as with Kung-Fu, we can relate to the physical exersion needed to swing a blade. Who among us has not made swords out of any long, slender object....quit snickering ya rubes!...(Ahem)...that we found around the house.
And when dad got done paddeling us for the missues of his golf clubs, we realised there where indeed consiquances for doing so! Quite apart from the welts on our arms and faces.....
But, till we watched popcorn come out the end of our straws, we did not realise the beauty of Ballistics.Well, that and throwing a rock at the lake to hit fish....
Well, you know what i mean....Which wepon do you prefer, and why.
And remember....Indiana Jones is watching you.....

Hard to say, most of what I know about both comes from movies which I think take serious license with their portayal of the use of both weapons.

I have always wanted to see a movie with an almost martial-arts portrayal of a gunfighter's skill.  The closest that I can think of was Coburn's character in "The Magnificent Seven."  I had a hope for "Tomb Raider," but that movie turned out way too shallow - for anything.

The building assault scene in "The Matrix" did a fine job, but I am really looking for a character with this skill as their main focus in life.

I think that the sword has an eloquent touch to it, which is why you see it portrayed as such a graceful weapon.  30 inches of shining steel tracing through the air looks more impressive than eye-arm-hand-pistol, natural point of aim, steady squeeze, follow through...etc.

Andrew did you ever see Ghost Dog? About a modern samurai under employment of the mob. He treats his gun as a ancient warrior would treat his kitana.

> Andrew did you ever see Ghost Dog? About a modern samurai under
> employment of the mob. He treats his gun as a ancient warrior
> would treat his kitana.

Sure did.  That is a good choice here.  I guess that I am looking for a movie done with a certain style.  Almost like Robocop was with his pistol, but the moving, dodging, fluid dance of a gunfighter.  Westerns come close to this often, as I am sure Scott could attest.

I like both. Gunfights look more brutal and sudden on the screen than swordfights, if they are handled correctly (like in most Clint Eastwood stuff), but sworplay allows the actors to make the fight more expressive with their acting and body language. You can tell more from a character and their motivations through their style and movements. Problem is, swordfights in recent movies (i.e. "Pirates of the Caribbean") can be neverending. Can't remember any good recent swordfight, except maybe in the latest Bond. Tell me if that fight doesn't speak books about the characters involved.

tough choice, you can put them in different categories i guess though.  guns mostly seem to have a quick fast paced action effect, loads of special effects and cool explosions and richochets and such

come on, you know you love a good old gunfight, and just admit, you used those golf clubs and sticks and such like a gun almost as many times as you'd do so for a sword.

but yes, it's the elegence of the sword and the slim precise lines that make the sword so much more mystical and intrigiuing

that and i'm probably compensating for something ;-)

though one way a gun can have a similar discipline as a sword seems to be the role of a sniper/assassin, living for the kill, waiting patiently, never losing focus-type people.  i love snipers, those guys are cool.

I was thinking that maybe the Gunkata in Equilibrium is more of what you were talking about Andrew.  The great martial arts use of making the gun an extension of the hand.  Also it looks fluid and quite cool when they did use it in the movie.

To watch something on the big screen, swords are definitely better.  There's no finer example than Basil Rathbone v. Errol Flynn in Robin Hood.  I do like the lone gunman going up against a bunch of baddies, a la Clint Eastwood's westerns.  Gun play though is usually too quick unless it's a mass battle scene.  It doesn't have the elegance of swordplay.  IMO.

Still, never take a knife (even a long one) to a gunfight.

I like a good gunfight just as much as I like a good swordfight.

Some of the stuff John Woo has done in the past with gunfighting in his films is simply mesmerizing.

Zorro was always a swordfighting favorite of mine as well.

I have to say that I'm in the middle....I like both equally.

FAV. SWORDFIGHT: Although not really with actual swords, they were swords in essence. Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader, Return Of The Jedi. Just the emotion from Luke from when he screams "NEVER!" to when he's about to finish Vader off is enough to make it a great swordfight. Also cool is how Luke's movements when on offense at the end of that saber battle are the same as Vader's movements towards the of the saber battle in Empire.

FAV. GUNFIGHT: Most of the gun fights in Hard Target. Sure, the movie sucked, but it was a fun, pointless action flick with some nice gun battles. Woo directed, thus the excessive use of guns "John Woo style" (two guns, one in each hand).

Swordfights:
"The Duellists" -  Starring Keith Carradine and Harvey Keitel. Has several great swordfights from fencing, to a horseback charge duel, to a great down and dirty fight to exhaustion where you see grace and technique erode as fatigue sets in. According to a documentary featurette on the DVD, the actors used swords with the weight of the real weapons to get the proper effect, rather than lighter aluminum replicas tha are used in most films.

"Sunlight" - Not a genre film, but a film about three generations of Hungarians Jews during the 20th century. Ralph Fiennes plays members of all three three generations, including an Olympic fencing champion. This is less swordfighting than the sport of fencing but the scenes are quite good and showcase the skill and training needed.

I think El Topo is another good example of what Andrew was talking about....

Ghost dog was a fine movie.

For a gun skill movie I still find the Killer to be the best by far.

Leon, has some gun=sword type skill feel to it.

I am much more of a gun type of guy. As great as the hand to hand and Morpheus sword fight in the Matrix are , the guns always steal the show (the break in and the rail gun in part 1, the Trinity near death scene in part two).

Also, people seem to be a little jaded with sword fights I think though. Look how effective it is when Indiana Jones shoots the swordsman in Raiders. Also, I think guns can be so cool, there is nothing more tension made then a gun to somebody's head, and Antonio Banderas makes his gun live in Once upon A Time in Mexico.

Anime however, makes sword and martial arts fighting so much cooler.

Can I have Bio-Booster Armor? That makes my strengh super powerful and I can also have this blades come out of my elbows so it can be Swords but I would be able to shoot lasers and blasters so I can be guns also. (Damn cold medicine is making me insane.)

-the first rule of fat club-

When I think of brutal swordfights, movies like CONAN THE BARBARIAN and EXCALIBUR come to mind. On the other hand, I think THE MASK OF ZORRO had some nicely choreographed "precision" swordplay.

As for guns, I'd have to go with THE WILD BUNCH, THE KILLER, HARD BOILED, and DESPERADO for all-out, over-the-top mayhem.

I guess I think it would be cool to see a sword fight where it looked like one swordsman was actually trying to hit the other, rather than just hitting each others blades in the middle.

I think I read somewhere that swordfights between people who really know what they are doing are actually over fairly quickly

Equilibrium!

No?

Okay, okay, I'll get my coat ...

Yeah, we mostly see stage swordfights, the way they've been done in the theatre for centuries. That is a skill in itself, and very entertaining, but not an accurate portrayal of swordfighting. We've gotten something of a romanticized view of swords.

The best demonstration I've ever seen, one that really drove home the brutality of swordfighting, was on Connections, a show that used to be on TLC. To give viewers a realistic picture, the host, James Burke, picked up a sharp broadsword and started swinging it at a side of beef hanging in front of him. Even in the hands of a middle-aged historian, this thing was cutting huge, deep gashes, and making the most disgusting noise every time it hit the meat. I've never seen that kind of realism in a movie.

As for movies that portray gunfighters as skilled warriors, I'd have to list The Last Man Standing as one of my favourites.

I saw that Connections, AndyC. Perfect example of what a sword or other sharp blade does to meat. And as Burke said, "To a sword, thats all a man is!"

Ah.. "Connections"...loved that show!

Swords are primal, they are far more threatening. I once housesitted for my brother out in the country and his wife gave me the machette, she said it was far more menacing for a stranger to try and attack you if you are holding a giant blade than if you were holding a gun. I think guns have been overdone that those massive shootouts don't raise much of an eyebrow anymore.

There is honor in hand to hand combat than using a gun at a safe distance. I think anyone who used this close form of contact in a battle or duel was far more braver than someone with a gun could ever be.



Post Edited (10-06-03 21:42)

sowrds are so much better you can slice and dice with one were a gun just punches holes out of the bad guys. blade fights look better  as well its alll up close and personal

Say what you like about swordsmen being graceful and honourable, people with guns kill people with swords. John Matrix armed to the teeth would blow Conan's melon off - no matter how barbaric he was.

'Your blade may cut deep, but mine fires 500 rounds per minute'

Hummm....
It would seem there is something to be said about the effect of production technology here.
Once, swords were hard to make, espchualy the good ones. ( Katana anyone?)
Now, the standard has changed.
Good serviceable knives and swords are easy to get, and so are guns.
So, why are guns the prefered wepon of choice? Because, in all honesty, they even the odds.
At least, up to a point....
Shooting skill is different then sword play. More abstract, so to speak.
But, both require the same focus and courage if your going to survive. Its just expressed in many different details.
Sight picture, breath control and fne motor skills apply to the shooter as well as the swords man. The bullet extends the reach, as does an arrow, but it still takes concentration of effort to get the job done.
In short....AIM!...yeah, Imp Stormtroopers, i'm lookin at you!...ya putzes...
Swords blocks sword? Well, stone wall blocks bullet. Camo allows a close approach to the prime kill zone. Bullets run out, but swords break.
How many swords strokes go amiss, as bullets do?

No. Neither requires the less of its user.  The tactics differ, but the courage is the same, i think.
Think Phasers. Insted of ripping a mans body apart with kenitic energy applyed to a piece of metal, you apply the energy directly.
In short, its scary to be on the recieveing end of any wepon....

But....i'd still rather be shot, then see that piece of steel with my name on it....

Interesting discussion an interesting topic. Let me peg it here, until I can give it some thought.

The whip is my weapon of choice. This saddistic weapon has been used in many of my favorite films. Nothing like a good whipping or flogging. This is so much more than a weapon.

Mutiny on the Bounty
One Eyed Jacks
Django
Bloody Pit of Horror
Blood Sucking Freaks
The Ape Man

"Equalibrium" has a "gun kata" that they demonstrate a number of times that might fit the bill.

Here is my thought on the subject. It depends.

If I ever was in a duel, I am so bad at duelling, the best I could hope for is a draw; therefore, I would choose a gun over a sword, and a shotgun at that. I may not walk away, but, I am going to make sure my opponent does not walk away either.

On the other hand . . .
If I had to chose to see something on the screen.

Exciting Gunfights
Alias Jesse James
Dick Tracy
How the West Was Won
Logan's Run
Rough Night in Jericho

Exciting Swordfights
Black Swan
Candleshoe
Four Musketeers
Lionheart (1987)
Parent Trap (1998)
Pirates of the Caribbean
Princess Bride
Quentin Durward
Scaramouche
Siren of Baghdad
Zorro (1977)

Thus I find swordfights more exciting then gunfights.

On the other hand . . .
If I was someone else and had to participate in some battle from the past (at least from those depicted on film) these would be my choices.

Swords Only. No Guns
Siege of Orleans (The Messenger)

Both Swords and Guns
Waterloo (Waterloo)
The Battle of the Alamo (The Alamo)
Assault on Fort Wagner (Glory)
Iswandhala (Zulu Dawn)

Guns Only. No Swords.
None

If the study of warcraft generates any interest, then for me, it would be that time when the gun began to supercede the sword, but had not totally replaced it.

As for how long a swordfight lasts, it would seem to me it would depend upon the skill or lack thereof of the participants, what is considered the conclusion, and the sword used.

Two opponents of equal skill would seem to last longer, then where one opponent is far more skilled then his or her opponent.

Is the conclusion, the first drawing of blood, which would last less long, then a fight to the death, as a person can take alot of damage, when they are fighting for their lives?

A fight with a large, heavy sword would seem to take a shorter time, as it would do more damage, then a small, light sword, unless a killing thrust could be gotten in.

As for length of time, and this would be with a large, heavy broadsword, without any timeouts, rest periods, and continuous combat, I have heard the maximum is twenty minutes for the average man, before he would become too exhausted to wield it any longer.

And, ending on a personal note, I have found the sword to be more personal then a gun, because, usually, one has to get closer to one's opponent to stick 'em, then shoot 'em.

I like WATERLOO and the FOUR MUSKETEERS.

Don't forget THE MARK OF ZORRO.

BLACK SWAN and CANDLESHOE sound like they might be some classic ones.

Advantage of gun: Range, armor penetration
Advantage of sword: Never runs out of ammo, better in close quarters.
Pick the right weapon for the job and each can be very ellegant.