Badmovies.org Forum

The use of foul language in films...what a topic.

I hate censorship. It's scary, totalitarian, dominating and dictating. It's telling you you're to stupid to watch films by yourself. It's telling you that you are so backward you need to be supervised by the media should you not be supervised by a care worker.

The reason they didn't put swear words in older films is because it would have given the sterile populous a heart attack. But as we progress through time, those of us who live in the real world, although we know films are fantasy, at least demand that the language be realistic.

One classic case was when Robocop was aired on TV for the first time. The guy in the convenience store to be the first arrestee by Robo...instead of saying 'f**k me!' repeatedly, it was badly over-dubbed with 'Why me?'. When Dick Jones confronts Robocops' creator in the executive toilets, again the word 'a***ole' was badly over-dubbed with 'Airhead' and two of the scenes from the film were completely removed.

Imagine in the real world, someone confronted with something truly scary, violent, etc. How stupid would they look if they exclaimed 'Bother me!' or 'You silly person!' or 'Please be quiet and refrain from being foolish'.

If people want to censor what we watch, let them go back in time and join hitler so the can be good little controls freaks to their hearts content.

People have sex, people smoke, people use bad language. The excuse that children may see these things on television is stupid. Most things that contain adult content are shown at night, so if youngsters are watching these films then it's a case for the authorities to find out why these children are not in bed and allowed to stay up so late watching films aimed at adults unsupervised.

Yet no-one has a problem with soap operas and the way they make out the world is a nice place with only minor hiccup once in a while...

Censorship? Fascist thought control, more like!

I believe that all national broadcast channels should be censored.  By this, I mean that channels such as NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, etc should have censorship.  But, I don't believe that cable channels should be.  

Since you PAY to watch the cable channels, there should be little censorship.  If you don't like what is on, cancel your cable.  As for children watching something inappropriate, that is not the station's fault!

We are a nation of nonparenting parents.  We never want to take responsibility for what our children do.  There was a school shooting?  Must have been that violent television.  Your kid got in a fight with another child?  Must have been all that television they have been watching.

If there is something that your children shouldn't see, BE A PARENT and don't let them see it.  Take Britian for example.  Female nudity is commonplace with their television, as is profanity.  I know quite a few people from there, and they aren't nearly as profane as oru society.  My theory is that once profanity is out in the open (tv) it will become less profane.  Once it is less profane, people will generaly slow down with using the words.

Skaboi wrote:

>Take Britian for example.
> Female nudity is commonplace with their television, as is
> profanity.  I know quite a few people from there, and they
> aren't nearly as profane as oru society.  

Isn't the 'adult humor' in Britain a bit more subtle than many US counterparts?  I mean, in the US, we seem to need to be hit over the head with minutia and detail.  On BBC shows on PBS anyway, there is more subtlety.  Not only does that often make it funnier, but somehow less crude.

Yes, Benny Hill is very subtle .

I don't object to swearing on tv, heck, South Park seems to get away with a lot of stuff.
One problem though, is that it seems that shows and movies rely on swearing and violence and sex (even through sex jokes) as crutches, rather than having good stories, with good plots and developed characters.

raj wrote:

> Yes, Benny Hill is very subtle .

Touche.

> One problem though, is that it seems that shows and movies rely
> on swearing and violence and sex (even through sex jokes) as
> crutches, rather than having good stories, with good plots and
> developed characters.

Yeah, I agree with that.  Cussing/Sex/Violence is thrown in a plot device.  It may be 'cool' when you are 15, but for me at least, when I hit my 30's, it became tiresome and boorish.  I mean, okay, I've heard every cuss word that exists more times than I can count, I've heard thousands of innuendos and double entendres, etc, and, well, unless they are clever (which usually for me means NOT BLATANT AND OBVIOUS) they are just dumb.

You know you are getting 'old' when you realize tv/movie marketing is not targeted for your age group.

Anyway, I don't mean so speak for the other 30 plussers on the board, but that's my take.  I think around 30-32 sometime is when I really started losing interest in (stupid) gratuitous sex, violence and swearing in movies.

Yeah, I agree with that. Cussing/Sex/Violence is thrown in a plot device. It may be 'cool' when you are 15, but for me at least, when I hit my 30's, it became tiresome and boorish.

Agreed, teenagers seem to cuss because they seem to think it makes them look more mature but then adults tend not to cuss because the realize it makes you look juvenile.

So when a movie has a bunch of people over about the age of 23 constantly swearing it doesn't tell me "real life", it tells me "lazy writer"*

 We wouldn't have to worry about censorship if writers were actually a bit more intelligent  amd creative and didn't cop out so badly for lack of anything to really say.





*and the few adults I've seen in 'real life' who cuss a lot just tell me 'lazy thinker'



Post Edited (03-16-04 20:11)

On BBC shows on PBS anyway, there is more subtlety.

Well, you gotta remember you're seeing the BBS shows that PBS wants to show so it fits PBS' style in selection as much as the British style in production.

But try and tell me that  "Fawlty Towers", "Mr Bean" , or "Keeping Up Appearances" are subtle...

FearlessFreep wrote:

> On BBC shows on PBS anyway, there is more subtlety.
>
> But try and tell me that  "Fawlty Towers", "Mr Bean" , or
> "Keeping Up Appearances" are subtle...
>

Actually, I had "Are You Being Served?" and "Keeping Up Appearances" in mind when I made my comment.  I meant the sexual content (er, well most of it) is rather subtle compared to the US lowest-common-denomenator approach of stringing together a bunch of expletives for body parts and sexual practices.

> Well, you gotta remember you're seeing the BBS shows that PBS
> wants to show so it fits PBS' style in selection as much as the
> British style in production.

hehe, fair enough.  I'll admit that having not been to the UK, PBS is my only exposure to BBC programming.  I've been to Germany twice, and I don't remember seeing vulgarity on tv at the time, though we did not watch much local programming.

Okay, granted...when a character swears to the point where every other words is an expletive, then it gets stupid.

I'm 29, and believe in creative swearing (a friend from Arizona told me a new way of say you're not keen on something is to say it "Sucks the farts outta dead cats..."). I don't look on swearing as juvenile, as most would. I've told jokes and heard other tell jokes that have swearing in and references to body parts/sexual organs, and I've seen people trying to act mature by shaking there heads and showing and expression that says "Really...how childish!" And to me there's nothing worse than someone who's way too old before there time! Time enough to bemaon swearing on tv and cinema when you're ninety!

Kids do it because they want to look and sound grown up. Adults do it because of emotion. It says a lot when something truly terrible happens, like the loss of money through to a friend or loved one being murdered and all you can say is "Oh no! How deeply and terribly awful!" With the extension that swearing gives to our vocabulary, and the power behind those words when said with emotion, "Oh no! how etc." sounds like you're really bothered about what's just happened.

I live in England, the censorship here is tight it's almost on the point of telling us "You're too thick to watch an uncensored film...you may copy it..." Consider the soaps we have. Some from Austrailia have no swearing, no smoking, and if anyone DOES drink, it's from a one-quarter pint glass! The result? Most of the adult charaters, going around accusing young couples who are holding hands as 'sex maniacs'...looking like the most repressed people in the universe.

Even in an episode of Dragonball Z (japanese version), Goku called the being who killed his best friend a "Son of a b***h" Not the harshest of swear words, but at least it shows what context swearing should be used...realism.

So before any of you start thinking that censorship is good, think on this...a study a couple of years ago showed that Great Britains' level of censorship is on of the tightest in the world, second only to countries like Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, Iraq and communist China...

Dirtcreature wrote:

> Okay, granted...when a character swears to the point where
> every other words is an expletive, then it gets stupid.
>
> I'm 29, and believe in creative swearing (a friend from Arizona
> told me a new way of say you're not keen on something is to say
> it "Sucks the farts outta dead cats..."). I don't look on
> swearing as juvenile, as most would. I've told jokes and heard
> other tell jokes that have swearing in and references to body
> parts/sexual organs, and I've seen people trying to act mature
> by shaking there heads and showing and expression that says
> "Really...how childish!" And to me there's nothing worse than
> someone who's way too old before there time! Time enough to
> bemaon swearing on tv and cinema when you're ninety!
>

Sorry, man, but swearing is not something to be proud of at age 29, imo.  Just my opinion, but I am one of the ones who DOES think it makes you look juvenile.  I am not talking about cussin when you hit your thumb with a hammer or something, that's pure response to stimulus.  But when you are just standing around the office cooler trying to think of the most offensive language you can use, well, it is low class.  Again, my opinion.  YMMV.

Not only does it make one look juvenile, but also very unprofessional. In the US, there are a lot of people talking about jobs and the unemployment situation, and I'll tell you, someone swearing for 'the fun of it' is absolutely something I don't want my employees doing.  I have worked very hard to build a reputation of professionalism, and behavior such as this can destroy it in a few minutes.  I guess that is the difference between someone of a 13 year old mentality and how someone in their late 20's is expected to act: one is expected to act irresponsibly, the other is not.

People judge you by the way you speak.  You may not think it is right for them to do so, but that is reality.  They can only go by the clues you give them, and if 13 year old humor and grammatical construct is what you present, then a 13 year old mind is probably what they will think you have.

If you want to avoid being old before your time, hang out with children and remember how to laugh at how silly and enjoyable the world can be.  It doesn't take cussing to feel young, and not cussing doesn't mean you're getting old

Point taken. Swearing is juvenile. I did not realise that swearing is only allowable for 13 year olds, and that this was the age limit for swearing.

I also did not realise that swearing also determines if your are acceptible in a workplace. I thought professionalism was measured by your ability, but it seems from what I've been told you can be completely inept in your duties at work but you will be accepted as competent as long as you refrain from swearing.

I must admit it IS rather confusing. On one hand, if you're and adult and you swear then it is written in stone that you are worthless. On the other hand if you are 13 years old and swear then you get a slap on the wrist for using adult language.

I feel that only part of my argument has been read and even less has been understood. I'm sorry that swearing is only for 13 year olds (why this certain age????),  and that if you swear you are classed as nothing. But to say that someone is pointless and unworthy of employment simply because they are heard to use the occasional swear word is a bit unfair, and also insulting to hear that according to you, I fall into this catagory.

I was talking about swearing in films, and films are meant to be a form of escapism from the real. I am truly sorry being, as you put it, of the mental age of a 13 year old.

(n.b. No swear words were used due to me not wanting to seem even more backward to the powers that be)

Okay, this is worrying. The guy who finds swearing in the work place seems to have a very unhealthy fascination with pistols and other assorted firearms.

I'm also worried as to how you'd react if you did hear someone in your workplace being unacceptible! From what it sounds like, some who swore within earshot of you may end up in a similar situation as poor old Edward Norton in Fight Club...with a gun shoved in their mouth!

Oops, sorry. I'm showing way too much grace and decorum with the execution of my verbal usage.

Ad hominem attacks? You're really proving everyone wrong with that.

Word to the wise: if you want to demonstrate that you have class and maturity, don't resort to slinging insults when you're losing the debate.

I've been staying out of this one until now, because it's one of those issues that tend to degenerate into just this sort of thing. But I can seldom resist for long.

Seems to me, the argument I'm hearing against censorship is that "I'm a big boy and I can handle it." If ever you wanted an example of a 13-year-old mentality, that's it.  Seems to me that, for a mature adult, Dirtcreature feels he has something to prove. To me, that's a really juvenile attitude, and a selfish one.

I do agree that a well-placed cuss word can be very effective, but any more than a little swearing can work against a movie for me. I find it distracting, and for me, it blows the movie's realism. Contrary to what some people believe, many real people don't talk like that. I also admit that I have been annoyed by sloppy and heavy-handed attempts to clean up a few movies for broadcast - generally ones that weren't too bad to begin with.

However, I do believe that some things need to be controlled. Freedom of speech does not mean that there is not an appropriate time and place for things. Any variety store around here can sell porn mags, but not to minors, and they have to be kept on the top shelf, behind an opaque barrier. Nobody considers this an infringement on anyone's rights. Likewise, we are free to obtain a DVD and hear all the profanity we want, but I would have reservations about seeing the same movie broadcast on a channel anyone can watch. You might not have children, you might not be an unbalanced individual, but there is a certain point where we all need to take responsibility for the health of society. We need to think beyond the here and now, beyond our own little self-centred worlds.

The fact is, people aren't responsible. Kids watch inappropriate things all the time, and it is often their idiot parents who let them. I personally know of people who watched an action movie with loads of gunplay and graphic torture - and yes, swearing - with their two kids, both under the age of ten, and both already having trouble with violent behaviour and inappropriate language. Somebody on this board, not too long ago, mentioned seeing people taking small children to see Cabin Fever. Easy to say that's their problem, but it does affect a lot more people in the long run.

Edmund Burke said it best - that people earn freedom by controlling themselves. And when less control comes from within, more must come from without, in order for society to hold together. People forge their chains though their own irresponsibility.

There is also the question of why cursing and violence are necessary to present us with "realism." For a start, movies are seldom realistic in most respects, no matter what anybody claims. For another thing, the "reality" presented is often ugly. Yet this is admired by so many people. The question for me is whether movies should be applauded for reflecting the worst that we are, and presenting such behaviour as normal, or whether we should be giving more respect to the movies that show us what we can be, and give us something to aspire to.

As for censorship, I don't think many people in our society know what real censorship is. Bleeping an F-word on a TV broadcast (which private broadcasters have every right to do), is hardly in the same league as supressing important ideas and opinions. In some countries, people are jailed for speaking against the government. Meanwhile, we in the affluent countries whine because there are still a few places we can't find sex, violence and toilet humour.

Hmmmm, come to think of it, the usual anti-censorship arguments often focus so much on what we have a right to see and hear that they often ignore the rights of broadcasters and publishers to decide what they will and will not give the public. If they won't broadcast a movie with the swearing intact, that's their business.

As the anti-censorship folks often say, if you don't like it, don't watch it.



Post Edited (03-30-04 13:10)

Andy, I was going to say something, but I just can't top that.  *applause*

Firstly, this little experiment showed more results than I thought would be shown. But it did start to degenerate when instead of debating the issue at hand, people started insulting me.

The topic at hand was swearing in films and the slapdash way it censored. It wasn't about censorship in any other field, be it news coverage, politics, documentaries, or anythings else, as that is not what this site is about, or what I was led to believe. It was about films.

To say that I'm selfish and immature, especially without first finding out all their is to know about me and making a lot of ill-founded assumptions on just this one topic is a bit rash. I find it more juvenile for someone to make themselves feel safe and superior by walking around with a firearm on their person, than someone who uses a cuss word every now and then. I did not say I go around saying nothing but swear words, I merely stated that people swear in real life.

Yes, movies sometimes portray "realism" as "ugly". Mostly because when a film is made that shows what good and self-sacrifice people are capable of e.g. Casablanca, Star Man, It's A Wonderful Life...films like that getted slammed as being schmalzty and sickly sweet. I like those three films, by the way.

To have a go at me for slinging insults when I was the first being insulted, myself being called mentally retarded. I did not start this debate for it to be used as a direct attack upon me. I started it as debate onto why films get hacked up and reshown seen fit by the broadcaster and not the way the maker wanted it to be seen.

Some people who I've told about this would join in, but they won't because they said something about not wanting to waste time on looking at a hate site.

I don't consider this a hate site, but I do find it very worrying that when someone hurls insults and I speak out about it then i must be ion the wrong.

Censorship goes on many levels on a broad spectrum, and as this is a forum about movies, I was talking about movies and not censorship in total. To do so would take up a lot bandwidth and time.

I'm a dad, i have a boy and a girl. As far as entertainment goes, the most violent thing my lad watches is Bob the Builder. As my girl is a little older she's allowed to wath The Powerpuff Girls. I have many friends, all upstanding members of society, and those who know about this debate find it worrying that some people have a problem with swearing to the point of calling people who use the f word mentally backward yet have no problem owning firearms, whether or not in a family environment.

This was not intended to make people blast me in any way. I said "In my opinion, movies should be seen the way they were made." but the response I got was "In my opinion, Dirtcreature has the mental age of a 13 year old." That has nothing to do with the topic of films and censorship.

I hope that this in not a hate site, and rather what I thought it was when I first found it...a site about movies and discussing them and and how we view them.

I'm very sorry for upsetting so many people. I thought this was going to be a topic on film censorship, not on my character. Many would define this as a characteristic of a hate site. Like i said before, I'm sorry for any insults I may have used, but for the person who originally insulted me to expect me to just sit back and take it...that's not a sign of maturity, more a sign that you are willing to let people walk all over you, no matter what insults they use on you.

This debate degenerated when I was called mentally retarded, NOT when I defended myself.

Let's just take a look at what you've given us to form our opinions:

"It's telling you you're to stupid to watch films by yourself. It's telling you that you are so backward you need to be supervised by the media should you not be supervised by a care worker."

"The reason they didn't put swear words in older films is because it would have given the sterile populous a heart attack. But as we progress through time, those of us who live in the real world, although we know films are fantasy, at least demand that the language be realistic."

"If people want to censor what we watch, let them go back in time and join hitler so the can be good little controls freaks to their hearts content."

"I'm 29, and believe in creative swearing (a friend from Arizona told me a new way of say you're not keen on something is to say it "Sucks the farts outta dead cats...")."

"I also did not realise that swearing also determines if your are acceptible in a workplace. I thought professionalism was measured by your ability, but it seems from what I've been told you can be completely inept in your duties at work but you will be accepted as competent as long as you refrain from swearing."

"From what it sounds like, some who swore within earshot of you may end up in a similar situation as poor old Edward Norton in Fight Club...with a gun shoved in their mouth!"

Those are just the best examples. Based on everything you've said, the image I formed of you was of a 29-year-old single loser who needs to grow up. It was only in your latest post that you really gave us any evidence to the contrary. The lesson here is that people base their opinions on the information that you give them. It might not be entirely fair, but if you make a bad first impression on people, most of them aren't going to waste their time finding out if you're really a nice guy.

As for the accusations of hate, I suppose they hold as much weight with me as your previous cry of totalitarian oppression. We've given our opinions of what you said, and of your general tone. The first few responses you got were polite enough, but perhaps not what you expected. Disagreement was met with sarcasm and defensiveness. You didn't really seem interested in a dialogue.

If you want to talk about hateful personal attacks, you've taken someone's interest in firearms (which has nothing to do with this thread) and made him out to be a gun-toting menace who can't tolerate any swearing. You might be trying to make a point about jumping to conclusions, but it's really an apples and oranges situation.

Not being sarcastic at all...you've got a point. I guess I did fire of a salvo without thinking. I guess I can come off as quite sarcastic. Anyways, just wanted to say sorry to all who got annoyed with what I said. I wasn't actually setting out to bad-mouth anyone, just trying to make a point about how you can jump to wrong conclusions with very little info to go on.

But mostly thank you to you, AndyC. You're what would be known in the UK as a "Sound bloke", rough translation is a good man..

And big apologies all round. Was NOT setting out to label anyone dangerous or whatever...

And to think, this all began with the way Robocop was edited for television on it's first network showing!

Hollywood censors any ideas it doesn't agree with out of any movie it makes.  Every "good" character in every movie, TV show and advertisement is in full and complete agreement with all of Hollywood's political beliefs.  It seems as if pounding home some piece of Hollywood ideology is a perfectly adequate replacement for a plot in much of what's on TV.  

After that, who cares about swear words?  It's basically like complaining there isn't enough frosting on the cake when there's no cake in the first place.

Characters should generally use language that's appropriate for the person being protrayed, or inappropriate if it helps to define the character.

Anyone remember the old days when something would go on TV and rather than doing a voice over of bad language, they would just blank it out? I'm talking about early 70's or around there. I actually preferred that because these voice overs are so obvious and usually ridiculous as had been pointed out earlier. As far as censoring things...I agree that things should be cut on broadcast stations. But, and here's where it gets tricky, if the movie is just too bad and needs too much cutting, it doesn't belong on regular TV in the first place. I can't recall anything off-hand but I have seen examples of this and it bothers me every time.

Hey, no problem. I'm glad you didn't take offense to my last post. A lot of people wouldn't have taken it as friendly advice. I kind of had a feeling you would.

Glad we all understand each other.

This thread did draw one thing to my attention - for a bunch of people who like zombies, monsters and things that blow up, we also seem to be really big on family values and good, wholesome entertainment. I guess I've noticed it before, but this is the first I'd really given it any thought.

I agree. There are some situations where they just ought to know better. I've seen movies that relied heavily on adult themes cut to the point where it interferes with the plot. There is a point where broadcasters need to draw the line and say "this movie ain't gonna work."

Ever see Demolition Man on TBS? The censorship does interfere with a couple of running gags in that one. They replace the swearing, but Stallone keeps getting fined for swearing. Makes no sense at all.

Actually, that one went well beyond what I'd call normal, because they also hacked out every reference to Taco Bell (ruining several jokes), and removed all but the tamest violence. The part where Spartan taps a passer-by with the stun wand - cut. Phoenix throws a guy through a display case - cut, but the glass is mysteriously broken in the next shot. I'm all for protecting the kids in the audience, but when you have to mutilate a movie to that degree, better not to show it at all.

Yes, i'm a resonable man, but nest time you don' like whad i say, I keeel you! Just funnin'! :o)

Censoring Demolition Man for swearing is a bad idea, as you pointed out, AndyC, due to the running joke about need ing toilet paper.

I remember not having the chance to see Planes Trains And Automobiles at the cinema, but had the opeortunity to watch it on video later. However, when it was shown on TV, they deleted the entire scene with Steve Martins' car rental rant. Yes, swearing for the sake of it can make a film rubbish, but his character had been through a lot, so his outburst was kind of understandable.

I too think they should go back to the good old days of simply blanking out swear out rather than dubbing over them. The voice actors never sound like the actor/actree they're dubbing. I remember watching Aliens, and the bit where Vazquez talks about using nerve gas, the dubbed over the entire line with a voice actor that sounded more like Melanie Griffith that Jenette Goldstein! So if broadcasters want to massacre a film, blank over dub any day.

As for swearing to beef up the plot and script, there is one film that really does suck. Yup, as much as I dislike censoring films as films were made to viewed as is, one film should have been banned due to the way it's even more insulting than your average soap, a film whose every other word is :S**t". So next time your friends tell you your fave films (b-movie or otherwise) like Clash of the Titans, The Swarm, Footloose, or whatever, just say two words to them...

Jaws 3

>Ever see Demolition Man on TBS? The censorship does interfere with a couple
>of running gags in that one. They replace the swearing, but Stallone keeps
>getting fined for swearing. Makes no sense at all.
>
>Actually, that one went well beyond what I'd call normal, because they also
>hacked out every reference to Taco Bell (ruining several jokes), and removed
>all but the tamest violence.

Notice also that all references to commercial jingles are gone, as is the scene where Stallone "buys" a rat burger in the underground, although if you look closely in one scene, you can see him holding the beer bottle.

Toward the end, Sanda Bullock is upset over having killed a thug, but they never actually showed that, making that scene pointless.