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i bought this on DVD and i was listening to the director's commentary, which is quite interesting. then i hopped on IMDB to see what the masses thought about it, and much to my suprise it had a low rating along with a lot of bad comments.

i know it's a little old, and the animation isn't as high-tech as a lot of today's stuff. but there's just something about this film i've always liked.

anyone else seen it?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076929/

and for Andrew's review:
http://www.badmovies.org/movies/wizards/index.html

Loved this movie

I like this movie quite a lot.

It's been a long time since I last saw this movie(gotta be going on 10 years now), but from what I remember I have fond memories of it.  And is it just me or did that big red mercinary  guy ( I think his name was Peace or something) remind anyone else of Boba Fett from the cartoon on that god awful Star Wars holiday special?

Other than the dated look of the rotoscoping and psychedelic appearance (not my thing), I liked it quite a lot.   ITs has a neat story, and my compaints are merely in the choice of style.  
I'd watch it again any time.
-Ed

Funny, it was the style that I liked. Those sort of surreal 70s animated features bring back a lot of fond memories. The post-hippy years produced a lot of unique entertainment.

To be frank I have Rankin-Bass animation nightmares (and don't mention Krafft Brothers!), maybe I'm a  bit too young to "get" the psychedelic stuff.  It was dead or dying as I became aware of TV.  The end fight of Wizards was so cool I was fondly remembering it the other day while mowing.  There are more then one type of magic out there.  
Funny enough I watched "The Hobbit" recently, and I found it sort of teeth-gritting.  It was one of my fondest memories too.  Watched it on network TV in the 70's.
-Ed

I liked the style of it to(o?). The "film live actors then color it in" technique was done a lot better in this movie than the "Lord of the Rings" movie he did later. The end fight was awesome as well and I liked the ending.

Maybe it was not seeing "Wizards" until after many years of hype from people who had, but I was disappointed by it. In fact the first time I saw it, I fell asleep.

I've never been a big fan of Ralph Bakshi or his way of using rotoscoping, I've always found it off putting for some reason. Also Bakshi strikes me as someone whose ambition exceeds his talent and budgets.

Plus the way some of the scenes jump between being serious dramatic action and Saturday morning kiddie cartoon hijinks (that one chase through the woods springs to mind). And the cheesy use of tinted footage from "Zulu" and other films in the backgrounds just seemed lazy.The whole thing was less "out there" than I was lead to believe, if I had seen it when I was much younger or before I had seen much anime I might feel differently.

Pointless digression related to  "Wizards":  for years there was a comic shop in my town called "Wizards" (the owner even had the poster on display in his front window). The owner made a point of contacting Bakshi or the studio to get permission to use the name (and I guess the poster), he seemed quite proud that he did this. Which seems to have been something of a rarity for him, he used to openly sell bootleg dubs of movies and anime he owned (at huge jacked up prices) and later got "cease and desist" letters from Disney when someone informed them he was running a kind of unlicensed daycare center by charging parents to babysit their kids after school and showing video tapes of their films everyday. Probably one of his employees narc-ed him out, since everyone who ever worked for the guy used to go out of their way to subvert his business.

Actualyl I hated this movie, I saw it when I was about 9 years old. I dont know why but it's scared me for life.

I've only seen Heavy Traffic, which is by the same guy. It was good but then the experimental yet too simple animation at some parts kind of were boring. Maybe cause of today's standards and I'm not from that generation.

I'll have to check Wizards, it has an intersting concept.

I definitely think that "Wizards" is his best work and I like it.  The whole bit with "They killed Fritz!" used to make us almost die laughing.  Don't know why, but it just struck us as funny.  That and Larry.  "Master feeds Larry, Master loves Larry..."

However, I watched the little documentary on the DVD and Bakshi is so full of himself that it actually made me annoyed with him.



Post Edited (08-17-04 18:42)

Andrew wrote:
> However, I watched the little documentary on the DVD and Bakshi
> is so full of himself that it actually made me annoyed with
> him.

Remember when he got his nose out of joint because Peter Jackson didn't consult him on Lord of the Rings? What a doofus.

Still, that was more of a publicity grab than anything else. Stir up some interest in his crappy version while the story is hot.

My favourite Bakshi creations had to be Rocket Robin Hood and the old Spider Man cartoon. Both were really bad, really fun, and contained some of the laziest animation I've ever seen, although it's a close race.

Bakshi had to be the laziest animater who ever lived, as shown not just by his rotoscoping and tinting of live film, but also by his use of still frames with a bit of movement, frozen characters sliding across the screen, segments reused and recycled again and again, psychedelic paint splotches as background, and the ever popular scenery that keeps repeating itself.

In that light, Wizards is definitely his best work.



Post Edited (08-17-04 19:18)

Gee . . .
Well, I for one first saw "Heavy Traffic" when it first came out on the big screen in London in 1973.  This was the unedited X-rated version, with the castrations & God's penis, and the automotive sex-acts, etc., that is simply unavailable these days from anyone.  Check it out:  Only R-rated versions can be purchased.  Fig leaves and deleted scenes.  To hearken back to the AVP thread, a rating sometimes does make a real difference in the whole flavor of what you're getting. I've seen 'em and it ain't the same film.  The tacky live-action ending that you see on the available version was forced on Bakshi by the distributors, who found the original ending too downbeat.
I still find this film -- 30 years and many viewings later -- to be a visionary movie.  Don't call it "animation" if some of the choices bother you.  As a just-plain-movie it works just fine for me.
Lots of Bakshi's background choices -- Edward Hopper's "Nighthawks", the fortune-teller at the carny, the use of the pinball machine,etc., were used as artistic points, not as laziness.  As Jean Cocteau's "Blood of a Poet" unfolds in the time it takes for a 300ft. exhaust chimney, blown up at the base, to collapse to the ground, Heavy Traffic unfolds in the time it takes to play a game of pinball.  Granted, he did use way too much rotoscoping in both Wizards and Rings, but this was ultimately for budgetary reasons more than lack of energy.
Sure, Bakshi comes across like a pompous ass sometimes, but I think he gets slammed for it because he's now quite broke.  If you're rich and act like a pompous ass, people line up to kiss yours.
peter johnson/denny crane

Ralph Bakshi. An underrated director.

"Wizards" An underrated film by an underrated director. Watch the action sequences in the film. He knows how to do an action sequence. Actually, I hold he knows how to do an action sequence  better then most live action directors working today. And I love the final confrontation between Avatar and Blackwolf. And remember "They killed Fritz."

And, oh, I'm reading this thread from back in August, and I have to point out that the "Peace" mercenary droid-thing is a direct copy of Vaughn Bode's "Cobalt 60", right down to the beast he's riding.
I've never heard if Bakshi and Bode fought, so he must've had permission to use it.
If you're unfamiliar with the work of Vaughn Bode, he composed filthy and imaginative science-fiction underground comics in the '60's and '70's.  He died performing one of those dumb self-garrotting sex acts, so perhaps not incredibly bright, but his work looks as if it were drawn yesterday.
peter johnson/denny crane

They shot Fritz!  Those lousy stinkin' yellow fairies!  They shot Fritz!

I loved this movie.

Definitely a great movie.  I saw it for the first time a year ago, and I loved it.  Before that, I had avoided it because my father had seen it and told me it was pretty bad (and our tastes are usually similar enough... aside from the horror genre).  But my interest finally got the better of me,a nd I watched it and loved it.  I still can't understand the negative response this movie gets.

Heh, theres a 2004 post done by me on this.  Scary!  Anyway I do like THIS film.  BUt dislike the HObbit or his other stuff.
-Ed (the NEW Ed)

As far as Bakshi goes, I consider Fire and Ice to be his best film, of the ones I have seen at least.  It's consistently entertaining, has some quite solid action scenes, and never slows down or descends into semi-pointless weirdness.  It's art is also generally very good, as are the designs.  With Frazetta working on it, no surprise there.

Wizards has one of the greatest anti-climaxes in film history though.

BTW, a lot of the mixing of rotoscoping and live action stuff in his films I suspect is done for budget reasons.  It lets them do some stuff cheaply while spending more money on more important bits (for those who mentioned anime in here, they do much of the same thing, with lots of sequences of still frames with a few moments of much more fluid animation segmented throughout).  Just a guess, though sometimes (parts of Wizards) I think it was done for effect.  I think the charges of rotoscoped soldiers were probably done for lack of time and/or money though.

I'm  a big fan of animation and art I , love beautifully animated movies whether or not they have a great story. Having said that I really don't like this film, for the same reasons as has already been said. The animation is very armature, it jerky  and loose and totally detracts from any artistic elements in the movie.Rotoscoping is also one of the worst ideas Ive ever seen in a animated film. I remember seeing the Lord of the Rings movie that this guy did, and it was cool up until they started using that crappy over tinted footage overlaying the animation.

For a really great Fleischer Brothers Rotoscope experience, check out the Betty Boop ones where they Roto Cab Calloway dancing to St. James' Infirmary Blues!!!  This was such a hot song in its day, that there are no less than 3 different cartoons wherein Cab comes on as a ghost & does the same number, slightly different every time.
They also Rotoed other Cab songs too -- Like "Old Man of The Mountain" -- also a Betty Booper.
* * *
I still think the best Bakshi cartoon is "Heavy Traffic"(1973), but apparently the uncensored version is very difficult to find, and is much more powerful than the "R" rated version that seems to be everywhere.
The original "X"-rated version that they showed in London in 1973 is still one of the strongest movies I've ever seen.
peter johnson/denny crane

Are you sure that this is what you meant to say? Were you trying to say "amateur"? You're confusing amateurism with artistic creativity. Kind of like saying, "yeah, that Jean-Luc Godard guy is one of the biggest amateurs of all time." :lookingup:
[/quote]

I meant to say "amateur" spell check screwed me up.

But...that movie is almost entirely rotoscoped...so...what? You say that the animation in LOTR was good until the Helm's Deep sequences (which are also rotoscoped)? What gives?

I'm sorry I should have been more clear when I talked about rotoscoping.  My comment was more directed at bad uses of rotoscope like in Ralph Bakshi movies. Rotoscoping is fine when used right, but it shouldn't look like you just made a bad drawing of the image.I understand that getting some elaborate action sequences animated correctly is greatly aided with rotoscope, but to just make the footage look like some cheap over exposed reel of film is inexcusable in my opinion.  If he actually used rotoscoping as just a guide for animating his sequences rather than directly, and poorly copying the actual footage I wouldn't be on here complaining.

i absolutely loved the animation of "wizards" but find it to be fairly lacking in the pacing department.  it gets bogged down and boring in several sections.  personally, i love bakshi's lord of the rings flick and prefer it to jackson's version.

I think that the rotoscoping worked out well for parts of "Wizards."  It gave a certain feel to the evil army.  I have not seen "Lord of the Rings" in a long time, but seem to remember that I thought the rotoscoped parts were terrible.  I will have to go back and give it another look.

     Hello Issac, I don't pop in here as often as I used to --
     Have you then seen the latest version available for "Heavy Traffic"?
     I'm certain you have a very good eye for censorship.  Let us give 2 indications:
When God Himself collapses on Planet Earth, after having been bazookaed by Jesus, were God's genitalia visible, or covered by a fig-leaf?
    When Michael's mother is seen in his dying vision, and she returns with her Star of David hatchet, is the Thing she stikes off the head of Michael's father or is it an enormous set of male genitalia?
     Sorry to be so visceral, but in order for this film to be fully realized as Bakshi intended, then the Extremely Nasty Bits HAVE to be EXTREMELY NASTY!!
It's like a Bukowski novel, or something similar.  The sheer blithering grotesquerie of the Human Condition must exist Full-Blown in order to creat the canvas or the cave for the illuminated figures to cavort upon.  Think Book of Kells.
     So?
peter johnson/denny crane

Well, God's balls!
This is an odd one, because the generally available R rated VHS of Heavy Traffic has the fig leaf on God, whereas one of the striking scenes in the X-rated version that I saw on the big screen in London in 1973 was a fully-exposed Diety, and the shock waves passing through Him as he collapses on Earth create a striking image indeed -- the fig-leaf was added on later.
Now, I am totally confused that the new version would keep the fig leaf, but bring back the castration imagery from the dying sequence.
What about the Maybellene sequence?  Is the act of oral sex visible as the cars "be motivatin' over de hill", or is it a sort of scrambled drawing of who knows what?  The R-rated VHS commonly available dumbed down the sex in this scene too.
peter j./denny c.