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Would it be possible to actually shoot a silver bullet from a normal gun? Would you need a driving band or something to grip the rifling. What would be the effect on performance?

You got a werewolf problem?

I imagine a silver jacketed bullet would work, like a copper jacketed one does.  A silver bullet doesn't need to be pure silver to kill a werewolf, does it?

I suspect it would work even with a solid silver core. The best one to answer this would be ulthar as I believe he has extensive re-loading knowledge.

So, I'm still waiting...you got a werewolf problem?

No, not as such. It is just something I started wondering about when I saw Underworld and it has kept bugging me ever since. BTW, to be effective against werewolves, does the bullet have to stick in the wolf, or is just making a hole enough?

AlexB wrote:
> BTW, to be effective against werewolves, does the bullet have
> to stick in the wolf, or is just making a hole enough?

That's a good question. I suppose it comes down to whether it is contact with the silver that is important, or just that silver can produce a fatal wound. I know silver blades have been used in stories, but even then, I don't know if they would stab the werewolf and leave knife in, or if a quick stab or a slash would work.

I'm inclined to agree with Odinn that a solid silver bullet would work. I think silver is soft enough. It could also be alloyed to produce the right characteristics, although I think it does have to be pure to be effective. I would, however, agree that a bullet with a pure silver jacket would be just as effective, but much harder to produce.



Post Edited (02-03-05 07:48)

Actually, I do not think you would see any terrible effect on performance.  Silver is harder than lead, but softer than copper or brass.  You would just need to figure out how much gunpowder to use for the weight of the projectile, then you would be good to go.

As noted by Odinn7, this question does cause me no small amount of concern.

You could really make it easy, and load a shotgun shell with silver pellets. Can't say I've ever seen that done in a movie, but it would have advantages.

"You could really make it easy, and load a shotgun shell with silver pellets. Can't say I've ever seen that done in a movie, but it would have advantages."

Good point, especially with a head shot.
Anyway, from what I understand about werewolves and how to dispatch them, it appears that it really depends on who writes the story/script and how convenient it is for them. In some cases I have seen that the silver must remain in the body in order to have an effect. In others it appears that all you need to do is cause some kind of fatal wound with a silver object. In "Wolves of Wallstreet" (highly NOT recommended by the way) a whole pack of them were put down by being poked with a silver pen, yes, poked. I even recall a horror comic when I was younger in which a werewolf was killed by being whacked in the head while in human form with a cane that had a silver end on it. This is all well and good for movies and books as whatever they need to fit the part is just how they write it in. The werewolves of folklore are no different in that depending on who you listen to or what part of the world the legend comes from, there are numerous differences in how to kill them off. Some legends don't even require the silver and a simple fatal wound of any sort that would down a human or regular wolf will also take care of a werewolf.
Essentially, what I would suggest is that if you are experiencing a werewolf problem, you need to determine which legend they are from and then do research based on that. No need to waste time and money fabricating a silver bullet when a simple baseball bat will do...

Well, in Underworld it is more a question of slowly poisoning the wolves (sorry; lycanthropes). If they can get the bullets out fast enough, they'll live. On the other hand, Angel dispatched a wolf with Wesley's complimentary silver Wolfram & Hart pen. You see, I'm in the dark here.

Makeing a working Bullet..."Hi HO silver..awayyyyy!" No problim.
Decideing on how it affects werewolf anatomy..., well, lets look at the script....

In the Lon Cheney Warewolf films, he was injured by a silver-headed cane.  And Alex, if you really want me out of the henhouse, just ASK.  No need to get crazy with ammunition.
-Ed

Some good points on the "damage or embedded" argument.  Also, as was said, using a shotgun with silver buckshot would probably be the best solution.  That way you get both massive tissue damage and the silver will probably stay in your target.  Also less silver than something like a .45 slug.  Or, rather, you get more surface area out of the silver you are using.

Werewolves are pretty big when changed, so 00 buckshot would probably be best.  However, I know that #1 shot is judged as the best home defense load.  That might work for one in human form.

And, if you get some huge monster wolf, you had better have a .45 or shotgun slug for the behemoth.

Shotgun slug for sure... large surgace area, and it'll spread further.  It'll make a hole like a melon through the lycanthrpic sucker.
Nice to see you in "real time" Andrew.
-Ed

Then again, there's the Monster Squad (1987) theory that you could just kick 'em in the 'nads, put a stick of dynamite in their pants (note: works only on Lon Chaney style werewolves) and shove them out the window. Could a werewolf really survive being blown into itty bitty were-chunks?

"Could a werewolf really survive being blown into itty bitty were-chunks?"
The working theory in movies, I believe, is that any destruction that is done will be regenerated. I suppose if they were to be blown up, perhaps the pieces would come back together or maybe you'd have 100 werewolves pop up from the pieces. Nobody ever really answered that question as far as I know.

But also remember that werewolf lore began before high explosives were readily available, so the whole "regeneration" theory sprung up as a reaction to newer, more destructive weapons in order to keep the terror going rather than just admitting that no creature, not even a supernatural one like a werewolf, could withstand the firepower of today's super weapons.

But on a side note, could you imagine the fun of pitting a horde of werewolves against a tank armed with silver-tipped shells? Carnage! Mayhem! Massive CGI budget!

But also keep in mind Derf, that I said movie werewolves. If you read my post further above, I mention how different werewolf legends, depending on where they originated, have different ways to kill one. So, perhaps an explosive would do the job, and very nicely too.

Probably one of those situations the writers would rather just avoid, rather than figure out what the heck would happen if you blew one up. Probably the only way you could do that and still make your werewolf unkillable would be to pull a Dragonball Z, and just have him walk out of the blast a little messy but none the worse for wear.

I'd like to see him splatter all over the place and then, just when you thought it was over, and the good guy is hugging the girl and all, suddenly the background music turns ominous and all the gory chunks start to slide tward eachother slowly reconstructing the monster.

According to the Lone Ranger, silver bullets are more accurate.

In An American Werewolf in London they could be killed with regular guns, but until they died all the people they killed were still wandering around rotting.

It's kinda like vampires, you actually have to stake them in heart, cut off their head, and then burn the body.

Aren't both allergic to garlic?

I recall that silver is supposed to be effective against various kinds of evil critters. Been trying to find the reason for this belief, but not having much luck. Perhaps because silver is a pure, white, shiny metal. Funny, one site I found noted that iron was more popular as a protective metal in some folklore.

I was also reminded of one funny bit of advice for dealing with vampires. Scatter seeds on the ground. Apparently, vampires are so obsessive, they will try to count them all, sometimes until the sun comes up. This was also a good defense against Howard Hughes. It would, however, not buy much time if you're escaping from Rain Man.

The silver does not have to remain in the werewolf.  Other metals cut through the werewolf's flesh and the wound immediately heals around it.  Silver disrupts this healing process, meaning that the wound is permanant.  If the wound destroys a vital organ or nerve center, the werewolf is killed.  In otherwords, a silver bullet through a werewolf's hand only does permanant damage to the hand, and probably you unless you have another silver bullet.

You guys who say the silver must remain in the werewolf are thinking about vampires.  When you stake a vampire (contrary to what Buffy the Vampire may tell you) it does not permanantly kill the monster.  You must still either expose it to sunlight, douse it in holy water, stuff its mouth with garlic and cut its head off, or immerse it in running water to permanantly destroy the vampire.  Removing the stake without destroying the vampire brings it back to life.

"Funny, one site I found noted that iron was more popular as a protective metal in some folklore."

Yes, this was a myth perpetuated by Europe's burgeoning iron smelting industry in the 13th century.

trek geezer:  Vampires are repelled by garlic, werewolves are repelled by wolfsbane.

The problem with werewolves - like vampires - is essentially that there is a lot of conflicting information out there.

To try and say there is some kind of "correct" mythology is just arrogant - on the assumption that all these creatures are fictional. Hence, you have to ask the question in reference to the type of vampires you're looking at.

Bullets, bah.  If you have a werewolf problem, what you need to do is make yourself a suit of silver armor, studded with two-foot-long silver spikes, and have a huge-ass silver morning star like the Witch King has in Return of the King.  Then you just go out and beat the werewolves to death.  That way, the next time some werewolves show up, they'll think, "Wow, that guy is such a badass.  Remember last time when he beat Larry and Jim to death with that huge f**king silver morning star?  We should just leave him alone."

It's my understanding with vampires that the stake can't just be driven in, but must be driven through the heart and into the earth. It was a precaution done to certain dead bodies, just to make sure they stayed buried. I think this has been ignored largely due to the many movie vampires who sleep in caskets in the basements of castles. Hard to pin them to the ground.

For some reason, I really like this topic, it's quite a bit of fun...Thanks AlexB.

Anyway, taking vampires or werewolves out really all comes down to how the writer needs to do it to fit into the movie. As I mentioned earlier, legends vary from area to area and it's not only on werewolves but vampires also. I remember reading somewhere that as AndyC stated above, bodies used to be staked through the heart and into the ground. This was to keep them from getting back up if they were a vampire. Legends and folklore have become confused with Hollywoods version but if you look at it a certain way, it makes sense. First, if Hollywood were to stick to the legend, which one would they use? Next, how scary would it be to have a werewolf that that you could shoot with any old bullet or even stab it with a stick and have it die? Would I be scared of a vampire that can't cross running water? Hollywood always neds to embellish things but in cases like this, in my opinion, it's for the better.

I like Brother R's idea yet I can't imagine what the cost and weight of a suit like that would be. Also I wonder what you would do if one of the werewolves were to impale itself on one of those 2 foot long spikes if it was on you back? How the Hell would you remove it?
Ah, I'm at work so I gotta go pretend I give a s**t for an hour or two...

Who's got the upper body strength for all that? I say take the nerd route out. Beef up on your robotics and build yourself a bigass silver plated, silver bullet firing ED-209 to hide behind. It'll probably kill alot of innocent bystanders but it'll get the job done.

I am reading an 1847 vampire novel called Varney the Vampire; or, The Feast of Blood that I downloaded for my PDA. The writing is incredibly tedious (around 10,000 PDA-sized pages, including several short stories told by various characters apparently just for the heck of it), but it is interesting to see some of the earlier vampire lore and how different it is from what we see now. For example, Varney is supposedly made into a vampire by a doctor (who of course regrets his actions afterward forevermore) after Varney had been hanged as a highwayman. He has no problem with sunlight, and he can eat whatever he wants. He only goes into a bloodlust once a month or so (it varies from monthly to annually to just whenever he sees a beautiful young woman through the novel). His goal is to marry a young woman and then kill her and drink all her blood, but, in true Wile E. Coyote fashion, he is thwarted again and again. Several times he resorts to gnawing on a sleeping woman's arm or neck until she wakes up screaming, at which point he acts like he has driven away the fiend that attacked her (she invariably faints) and has saved her. He can be killed the same as any man, but when moonbeams hit him, he returns to life.
So, in this book, there is no obsessive-compulsive counting, fear of moving water, garlic or any of the usual vampire paraphernalia. The characters occasionally talk about stakes, but no one seems to believe that is the only way to kill a vampire. I don't know if these beliefs are closer to the "original" vampire lore or if the author simply made up his own legends and conventions, but it is interesting to see such a different take on vampires, if you can wade through the writing style. I personally have been working on this off and on for a couple of years now and am finally within 2000 PDA-sized pages of finishing.

If I remember correctly, Varney the Vampire is one the earliest, if not the earliest appearances of the theme in English literature, so the writer had the myth all to himself. When now you do vampire or werewolf fiction, there is such a huge load of received wisdom on the subject, you have to thread carefully if you want a plot device that works

As for the silver armour of Brother Ragnarok, ten out of ten for style, but minus several million for practical thinking. If I had a werewolf problem, I'd ask my friendly armourer to provide me with lots of silver 9mm rounds, and let the Uzi do the talking.

AlexB wrote:

> If I remember correctly, Varney the Vampire is one the
> earliest, if not the earliest appearances of the theme in
> English literature, so the writer had the myth all to himself.
> When now you do vampire or werewolf fiction, there is such a
> huge load of received wisdom on the subject, you have to thread
> carefully if you want a plot device that works

I agree that we are so steeped in "facts" about vampires today that we could never go back to a Varney-style vampire, but this is a shame; a vampire that is not limited by any of the usual conventions (darkness, garlic, etc.) seems to me to be a much more frightening creature.

"When now you do vampire or werewolf fiction, there is such a huge load of received wisdom on the subject, you have to thread carefully if you want a plot device that works"

Some writers are ballsy enough to toss out the rulebook when it comes to vampires and warewolves. I've read Clive Barker stories where they've appeared completely outside of their conventional form. The Theif of Always is one, and the other was a short story in Cabal. I cant remember the name.

Also there's a movie I saw called the Hunger where vampires were treated more like drug addicts than supernatural creatures.

Master Blaster wrote:

> Also there's a movie I saw called the Hunger where vampires
> were treated more like drug addicts than supernatural
> creatures.

The Breed does something similar. I can appreciate those who break the mold (although Clive Barker has just never done much for me; I've never read his stories, but his movies--apart from Nightbreed--don't work for me). However, I can't think of any of those movies that drop the conventions that also have done well in the box office. Are there any?

Attribute it to a lack of imagination or an unwillingness to change ideas, but audiences seem to demand that filmmakers stick to the well-known conventions for well-known monster types.

Did I say I was going for practical?  Sheesh.  Literalists. ;)

Done well at the box office? Nah, not really. Maybe An American Warewolf in London.

Clive Barker is better in print by the way if you ever get your druthers. I'll admit most of his movies suck.

"To try and say there is some kind of "correct" mythology is just arrogant - on the assumption that all these creatures are fictional. "

Arrogant?  Yikes!  I hope you didn't take my posts as serious.

These are important issues. We've all weighed the pros and cons of our various zombie survival plans time and time again. Unfortunately we've not so adequetly prepared for possible warewolf attacks. And jeez we still have UFO invasion, vampire infestation, giant monster attack, and homocidal robot situations to plan for. We're so unprepared I fear for everyones lives if a Night of the Lepus type situation was to arise. "Giant Rabbits! What's the contigency plan for giant rabbits? I cant remember. Was it stop drop and roll? Damn!" CHOMP

I read a werewolf book once that stated if you know who the werewolf  is and speak their name, they will temporarily revert to human form.  I guess if you say the wrong name and don't run you're chow.

"Arrogant? Yikes! I hope you didn't take my posts as serious."

Dammit Eirik! This is no place for joking around...this happens to be a serious topic!

Seriously, I liked your comment about the iron industry. Quite amusing.

Well I know if I every encounter a werewolf or became one (and wanted to end it) I give him/myself a Coors light because we all know thats a "sliver bullet". :)

 
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You can’t give it, you can't buy it, and you just don't get it!-Aeon Flux

>I'd like to see him splatter all over the place and then, just when you thought it
>was over, and the good guy is hugging the girl and all, suddenly the background
>music turns ominous and all the gory chunks start to slide tward eachother slowly
>reconstructing the monster.

They did that to the werewolf in The Monster Squad.

Oh, damn...

There goes my idea for the ending of Creature...

I don't see any problem with shooting a silver bullet.  As far as engaging the rifling in the barrel, I guess it wouldn't matter much - most werewolves are shot at point blank range anyway.  I suppose there's a possibility of damaging the barrel with the harder metal, but it shouldn't become a problem unless you're shooting several werewolves a day for a week or two.  

You could look into how they make armor piercing ammo for machine guns if it's really a priority ;)

Master Blaster wrote:

"Giant Rabbits! What's the contigency plan for giant
> rabbits? I cant remember. Was it stop drop and roll? Damn!"
> CHOMP

You go to drive in movie theatre and commandeer all the cars. Then,  with all those headlights, you herd the rabbits onto a stretch of railroad track you've previously put under high voltage. Piece of pie, really. Didn't you ever watch Night of the Lepus?

In the original werewolf stories of Eastern Europe -- some documented by The Brothers Grimm -- the werewolf hunter would take the silver chalices from a Catholic Church to melt down to create a huge mine-ball to shoot from his flintlock/matchlock Blunderbuss-type weapon.  These things were round & maybe 50 to 80 calibre(!), if we're being literal.  It would seem to be the association with the Blood of Christ that would give the silver bullet its power, not just the type of metal used.
Francis Coppola's Dracula has Dracula walk down the middle of London, in broad daylight, just as he did in Bram Stoker's book.  Apparently, the only full day that the vampire has to hide in his hole for is the Sabbath -- which could get confusing if your vampire is a Seventh Day Adventist or Jewish --, though he only has his full powers in the dark of night.  Again, the religious thema are very important.
In the book of The Keep, the Wurdulak, or whatever the hell the old, Unspeakable Being is, has a long conversation with one of the Nazi doctors about his makeup & says he "loves garlic" & pops a whole bulb in his mouth by way of demonstration.  Pity they didn't keep that scene in the film.
In both House 1 & House 2, all the monsters defy conventions all over the place, willy nilly, and I think both of those films made money.
peter johnson/denny crane

Well, I think the main advantage in having a traditional monster in your movie, is that  you save on explanation time. For obvious reasons, you need a monster that can't be killed easily (otherwise you'd have a really short movie), yet it has to be killed somehow (due to the need for a happy ending, or indeed some ending at all).
If you start from scratch, you need a professor type character saying something like 'the whatever-it-is can only be killed if it sneezes at full moon'. Then the Hero has to find some way of spraying the monster with pepper at the right moment.
On the other hand, if you use Dracula, you don't have to motivate why people go looking for stakes, garlic or holy water. It is simply a labour saving device.

That being said, I'm still not convinced of the effect of silver on the rifling. For one thing, I'd like to shoot werewolves from fairly a long way away. Secondly, who says you won't meet another one very soon?

Ah, great. Creature won't work, then. It has a pessimistic ending

"That being said, I'm still not convinced of the effect of silver on the rifling. For one thing, I'd like to shoot werewolves from fairly a long way away. Secondly, who says you won't meet another one very soon?"

As Andrew stated earlier in this thread, silver is harder than lead but softer than copper. Many modern bullets are copper jacketed and work fine in rifled barrels as do lead bullets. I don't see that there would be any problem with the rifling and silver combination. Now, as far as how well the bullet would fly at a distance, I can't even begin to tell you.

I'm pretty sure it could work.