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Where I live right now, gas is about $2.50 a gallon, tops.
How much does a 16 oz. bottle of Aquafina water cost? Something like .85-90 (cents)?

Compare a gallon of this filtered water (that's probably came from a neighboring state) to a gallon of gas (from oil shipped from overseas)that has been refined.

Good thing cars don't run on filtered water.

I don't need that filtered water, but I do need gasoline. Besides, you can get a gallon of bottled water, which has been filtered by reverse osmosis, for about a buck.

Two words: peak oil

My dad's always using this argument in conversations and I totally agree with him & you, gas is cheap compared to other liquid products.

I recently watched Modern Marvels on the History Channel and it was all about oil refineries.
One of the first things they said was how much of a bargain gas is considering all the expensive procedures crude oil has to go through to eventually become gasoline.

When it hits $5 plus in less than a year then I'll start worrying.
(hypothetically speaking)



Post Edited (06-24-05 20:57)

Oh it will. And we'll pay without a major complaint until it hits $4.00. Europe already pays twice what we pay now and they've adapted quite nicely. Now they just scoot around on motor scooters saying "ciao."

The average American travels more distance for work than the average European. When comparing apples to apples on European gas prices versus American gas prices, we still pay about the same, if not more. It is supply and demand; we use more, so we pay less per unit, but we use more units.

Whenever I hear of americans conplaining of gas prices, I have to try hard to imagine the situation. In my country, gas now is about 1$ per liter, and I think other countries charge even more for it, like Italy. The reason is not fuel procesing costs, but taxes. Fuel is one of the main incomes of indirect taxes for the state, together with cigarrettes and alcohol. I guess fuel in the US is not that heavily taxed.

On the idea that you pay more in the long run because of biger distances, I disagree, because fuel consume is not directly linked to distances, but to engine and gearbox use. Therefore, if you take people driving the same ammount of hours in roads and cites, you'll notice that those driving inside cities, despite driving through less distance, have consumed much more fuel.

My suggestion? If you think you're paying too much for fuel, use european or japanese cars instead. It still amazes me how many americans drive those cars with enormous engines. In my country it is rare to see any car with an engine bigger than 2.500cc, and if you see it, either is a BMW/Mercedes/Porche, which means the owner can afford the fuel, or it is a diesel. Anything above that would be considered a waste of money and fuel in my country.

Not really a different perspective. It's the same counter-argument that always comes up when people complain about gas prices.

It's usually milk though. Bottled water isn't the greatest comparison, since I can always use inexpensive tapwater that generally tastes better than most brands of the bottled stuff anyway. In a pinch, I can get it from a stream or catch it when it falls from the sky. It's not a matter of buying Evian or going thirsty.

Of course, milk isn't the greatest example either, since about two litres of that will last a week at our house. I don't need to buy it by the tankfull. Alternately, I can drink the tapwater. And I can get to work without a carton of milk. Really, I don't need it at all.

Neither of these is in any way comparable to gasoline. They're all liquids, but that's about it. It's kind of like pointing to gold when somebody complains about the price of steel.

Anyway, thanks for the revelation.



Post Edited (06-25-05 10:25)

We had this argument on this board months ago and it's going to turn into the same thing here.

And as far as SUVs and all those big cars...I completely agree that this is an excess for those people but because they drive things like that, it's not my fault. I drive a Geo Metro that gets almost 40 mpg but I still spend a fortune in gas every month because of how far I need to go to get to work. I hate driving the toaster oven on wheels but I have little choice.



Post Edited (06-25-05 08:10)

Neville wrote:

>  I
> guess fuel in the US is not that heavily taxed.
>

Oh, but it is.  The fuel here is very heavily taxed.  And, there are like over 60 different formulations (different states, different times of the year, etc) that helps drive up the price.

If we all burned the same gas and there was tax relief of the product, here in the US we'd be paying about $.80 per gallon (USD).

Not as heavily taxed as in Europe.  There a gallon might be $4-6 a gallon, with $3-4 dollars of that in taxes.  That's how they pay for their "free" health care.
Still, requirements for different formulations at different times of year and in different locations does help boost the price by a fair piece.

Of course demand has gone up tremendously in China and India.  That's probably reason #1 why gas prices have spiked lately.

raj wrote: "Of course demand has gone up tremendously in China and India. That's probably reason #1 why gas prices have spiked lately."

Not to mention the US invasion of Irak and the subsequent unrest in the whole Middle East area...

Neville wrote:


> My suggestion? If you think you're paying too much for fuel,
> use european or japanese cars instead.

Sales of Toyota and Honda vehicles here in America are at the top right now I believe.
Sales of those big GM and Ford vehicles have plummeted.  People are selling them off now to buy imports because they get better gas mileage.



Post Edited (06-26-05 20:43)

Just be glad you don't live in Jamaica. A friend of mine went there on his honeymoon about three years ago. Gas was $24.95 a gallon! Also take into account that minimum wage is like $20 a week. Do we really have it that bad?

Lee wrote: "Just be glad you don't live in Jamaica. A friend of mine went there on his honeymoon about three years ago. Gas was $24.95 a gallon!"

I won't complain of gas cost anymore

I won't complain of gas cost anymore

I won't complain of gas cost anymore

I won't complain of gas cost anymore

I won't complain of gas cost anymore...

ASHTHECAT wrote: "Sales of Toyota and Honda vehicles here in America are at the top right now I believe. Sales of those big GM and Ford vehicles have plummeted. People are selling them off now to buy imports because they get better gas mileage."

Funny. I'll have to stop picturing you driving boat-sized cadillacs, then. In my country finding american cars was virtually impossible 10 years ago. Now some american manufacturers like Jeep, Chevrolet or Chrysler sell some of their models here. The Jeep Cherokee and the Crysler Voyager are becoming quite usual, and I've even spotted a couple of Corvettes. Given how competitive their prizes are (a Voyager is about 30,000 USD), I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to obtain a major piece of the cake, specially in upper-level car sales.

The funny thing is that many of these cars come with relatively small engines (nothing over 3.3 liters, except the Jeep Cherokee) and manual transmision. If you can't beat them...

The American manufacturers have been making many economy models of cars for years with 4-cylinder engines being the norm for most of these and even a few models with a 3-cylinder engine, although many of these models are still probably a little bit larger than many of the small models of European cars I have seen. Several years ago, there was a spike in the sales of larger SUV's and trucks with 6 and 8-cylinder engines, and, of course, there will always be Cadillacs and Towncars for those who can afford them. It seems as though the popularity of the SUV is dropping as the gas prices are going up. My station wagon has a 6-cylinder engine and I so wish I had a more economical car at this time. I prefer a station wagon as I can carry my photography equipment, and I mean a lot of equipment. My previous model of wagon was a Subaru and I wish I had another Subaru. They are tough, economical vehicles.

Another stereotype broken, then. Thanks, Menard. Here in Europe, as I said, it is difficult to find cars above 3.0 engines, unless they are from brands like Porsche, BMW or Mercedes. Even diesel engines are usually smaller than that.

I drive my parents' car, a quite old Renault. It's a 1.4 engine with 72 HP, but is very economical and has plenty of space for its size. Even if I replace it soon (something I've been considering, since it is a very old car), I'll probably get something of similar size and specifications.

It's Jamaica.  Just live on the beach.

I was talking to my dad about all of this gas price near-crisis, and he told me that really inflation wise we are paying less for gas than we did during the gas shortages in the '70s. I was only slightly aware of what was going on then (I was a baby to pre-school age then), but it always struck me odd that my parents ended up buying a '73 Chevy Impala station-wagon in '79, which they only got because they were doing a lot of carpooling at the time.

on ripley believe it or not i saw a guy use cooking grease from fryers in restraunts and filter it  . and he built an engine that would burn the oil like gas.
the cooperations make too much money how it is they will not take a pay cut to improve society or help humanity. com on now this isnt america anymore this is "BUSHLAND" and were all in a robocop movie and encorp is building a machine to kill us all.

neil wrote:

> on ripley believe it or not i saw a guy use cooking grease from
> fryers in restraunts and filter it  . and he built an engine
> that would burn the oil like gas.
>

You don't have to make a special engine; it is a fairly easy process to turn cooking oil into 'biodiesel.' Do a google search for biodiesel and you will find numerous recipes and methods.  If you have a vehicle with a diesel engine, you can make your own fuel, as right now, many restaurant owners will give away their waste oil.

The problem is that if it gains popularity, they will probably begin to charge for it, and it will take a while for the market to sort itself out pricing wise.  There's not enough waste cooking oil to fuel ALL diesel cars/private trucks, so it could not replace petroleum based diesel.

Another alternative is to grow your own corn (or other good oil producing veggie), make the oil and make the diesel from that.  But, the energy input in this case is greater than what you get out; you expend more fuel growing the corn and making the oil than you get in the end.  There is no panacea.

But, for now, the waste cooking oil is an attractive approach for those with diesel cars and limited fuel requirements.

And how is it air pollution-wise?

I've contemplated buying a diesel car many times.  Then I remember that I live in Iowa and I wouldn't be able to drive it all winter because it would never start.
And what Ulthar is saying about ethanol (corn fuel) is true, not just for making it yourself, but buying it in general.  Living in the midwest like I do, it's more economical for me to buy it because it's cheaper, but only in the Midwest is it cheaper, because we don't have to import it.  It does burn cleaner, but how much regular diesel is used in tractors to harvest it?  In the long run, ethanol is only good for Midwesterners and corn farmers.  As my family are both, please consider ethanol  :)
I just bought a new house, and it's about 8 blocks from where I work.  Viva la bicycle!  I can't wait to stop spending $20 a week on gas and just ride a bike.  Once I get settled into house payments, I'm probably going to start looking at more fuel-efficient cars.

A couple of quick comments.  I was talking about using corn to produce corn oil, then converting the oil to biodiesel.  This is not the same as using corn to produce ethanol.  The energy budget for both processes is 'negative,' iirc.

Also, there are some pollution problems with using ethanol based fuels (sorry, Brother R).  Notably, small oxygenated radicals like the CHO and C2H4O increase in areas like Denver in the winter where ethanol fuels are used.  These radicals are quite unhealthy (CHO being related to formaldehyde and C2H4O being related to acetaldehyde).  

This is likely why you hear a lot less about ethanol as a fuel in recent years. I've not done any reading on it lately, but I suppose this could be related to using ethanol additives in fuels for cars carbureted for gasoline; perhaps some modifications need to be made to make a cleaner burning engine when using oxygenated fuels.