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Title: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Susan on November 29, 2005, 06:45:38 PM ok i said i'd stop with the OT threads but something happened today at work. One of my coworkers left her ex and he doesn't know where she lives now and so he calls her constantly - i mean like all day when he has a day off and leaving text messages and such. She even had to hire a swat guy to escort her to their house so she could get all her stuff that he wouldn't let her have when the police were called out there and basically did nothing.
Anyhow, my office has several entrance doors which are locked from the outside and you can only gain access with a key, except for the receptionists office. I was going out one of these doors and her ex, who I didn't recognize so much as had this gut feeling it was him came sprinting toward me. He looked really crazy and agitated (just an hour prior she yelled at him on the phone to leave her alone or she'd call the cops and to stop harassing her. He left a txt message that said "we'll take care of him" and she didn't know what that meant) Anyhow I stood there and waited for the door to close and said "I dunno" after he asked me if she was in there. I hurridly walked to the receptionist office and saw him lingering by the door i came out of and then he quickly followed after me. When I got back in the office i ran full speed around to warn everyone in our area he was trying to get in. He gave a fake name to the receptionist who got scared after recognizing him (second time up there) and she called security. He was standing around our doors at work and he even knocked on the one in my work area where this girl also works (she sits in the cube across from me so if he comes in shooting i'm screwed) and someone told him to get out. He yelled at another coworker who came out and pretended they didn't know this girl...it came to the poitn where we were concerned he was going to try to get in..all he'd have to do is stand by the door when someone came out and just run in..The doors are wood so we can't see who's behind them. He is the owner of a gun ...so that is one reason for concern. Hopefuly he's just a loser who can't get over her and he never comes back to the office again... but, what is involved in her filing a restraining order? Is there a cost and how effective is one anyhow? Can anyone get one or do you have to offer evidence of harassment? I heard they aren't anything but a legality on paper..the police really seem indifferent. When they came out they just shrugged saying there wasn't anything they could do. If work isn't stressful enough now i have to worry about this psycho Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Flangepart on November 29, 2005, 06:56:15 PM Man....
I know its no help, but,i'm pullin' for ya, Susan. Becarefull, ya hear? Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Shadowphile on November 29, 2005, 07:34:03 PM Restraining orders are fairly easy to get. Unfortunately they are equally easy to ignore. Have your coworker look into having him charged as a stalker. If he's pulling this where she works, that is stalking. The fact that he is scaring coworkers is important. Likely you can get the company to file a restraining order as well, to keep him off the property.
Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: ThadC on November 29, 2005, 07:39:25 PM Shadowphile has the right idea, but I think the restraining order has to be violated first before someone can be classified as a stalker. I might be wrong. She needs to talk to the police, a lawyer, and maybe even hire a guy to scare the hell out of him. Thats last case though. NOT LEGAL
Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Susan on November 29, 2005, 08:07:43 PM We're trying to convince her to do this, she's not taking it as seriously as we are I think, she finds it more to be a nuisance while the rest of us feel it more as a threat. Because she is young and not seasoned enough in life epxeriences and relationships, she apparently has no idea how psycho people can get after a breakup. Given he doesn't know where she lives, our office is the only physical connection he has to get in touch with her. Our company may be more likely to fire her than to get a restraining order on him. They did that with a temp awhile back ago and many companies will let employees go if they feel that coworkers are being put at risk for your domestic problems.
Doesn't that suck? That it's bad enough a woman can be a victim like this but be punished for it as well. I don't think she realizes the ramifications or wants to hear them from us, we keep telling her to change her number but she's so slow to listen. That frustrates the rest of us who know better, and that things can quickly escalate. I recently had a medical problem last week and my doctor said it was triggered by stress, i'm in constant pain and am supposed to avoid stress so this kinda p**ses me off. On top of that i got a serial rapist /robber with a shotgun breaking into apartments in my area, including the ones across the street from mine. ;-/ I'll try and talk her into the restraining order, if anything it may help in getting him to stop and give up if he knows it could land him in jail. I was just curious if it's something that's even effective, doesn't seem like the law really has much set aside for these type of situations. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Menard on November 29, 2005, 08:17:50 PM A restraining order basically adds another charge to anything he does to her and it gives the police the ability to arrest him in the event he is harassing her, like at work. Where they may only be able to tell him to go away without one, with a restraining order he can be arrested for violating it if he approaches her, depending on locality and whether or not the officers actually give a damn.
There is also a higher level of restraining order, something like an E.P.O., which can result in more sever consequences against the perpetrator. It could vary by locality, but you usually file for a restraining order at your local courthouse. I can't remember if it is district or circuit court. There could be a fee involved. Any police records and/or affidavits that can be acquired will benefit the petitioner. Check this out for more info: H.R.O. (http://www.letswrap.com/legal/hro.htm) Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Susan on November 29, 2005, 08:34:00 PM Thanks for that menard, i'll check out the link and find out more here.
I do hate to say it but Dallas officers are really indifferent. I had a friend involved in a car accident who called the police and when they showed up they said "What the hell do you want US to do?" I'm lucky the county i live in the cops care just a little bit more (I mean the crime unit was actually called to dust my car for prints after it was broken into..lol) Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: trekgeezer on November 29, 2005, 09:01:48 PM Sadly, restraining orders aren't worth the paper they are written on. The Supreme Court ruled last year that the police basically are faultless if a restraining order is not enforced. If like the Colorado case they heard the state law doesn't make enforcement mandantory the police probably won't respond until something bad has actually happened.
She needs to get the hell out of town and not let anyone know where she's gone. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: mnpchan on November 29, 2005, 10:01:53 PM Restraining Orders are only useful once the restrained has broken the order. So she would have to get one and hope that he breaks it without seriously hurting her and Then she can have him arrested without question. But therein lies the major flaw of restraining orders, a huge percentage of them being broken is the restrained coming in with lethal intent and at that point the RO isn't going to do anything except tack on a minor offence to the already potential life sentence.
However...If she were to work with your company and have them also set up a restraining order against him, then him even entering the property(parking lot included) is enough for them to haul him off(even if for a short time). But, again, there's a problem with that too. If he gets arrested then he's not going to be happy and the only thing worse than a stalker is an angry stalker. Unfortunatly, the best course of action is like Trek Geezer mentioned...really the only way to get rid of him is for her to vanish. Title: Get A Gun Post by: Ash on November 30, 2005, 02:43:30 AM She needs to go to the gun store, put in the paperwork for the 7 day waiting period and then, once approved, buy a small pocket pistol and a box of ammunition.
A small pistol that she could keep in her carryall or purse would run her around $100 to $150 and it'd be worth it. Women who are threatened like that should take no chances lest they end up on the evening news and in the obituary column of the newspaper. If she doesn't want to invest in a gun, at least try to persuade her to get a pocket size can of Mace or pepper spray to spray in the prick's eyes. Mace is cheap...she can get a can for around 5-10 dollars that'll fit neatly into her purse. Since you stated that you have a psycho prowling your neighborhood Susan, you'd do well to do the same. Maybe you should get a gun too. I don't want to hear months from now that you were murdered by a psychopath. Buy a gun and fill that f**ker full of lead if he comes near!. Don't hesitate...buy a gun and empty the whole goddamn magazine into him if you're attacked. Shoot him without hesitation. Kill him dead'r than a f**kin' door nail! Buy a gun now! Post Edited (11-30-05 11:05) Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: ThadC on November 30, 2005, 06:14:48 AM I have to warn against buying a hand gun. I have been trained to use weapons, and have no problem blowing someones head off, but someone who is not trained will more likely shoot themselves in the foot. If any one does get a weapon, please take a training class, or better yet some kind of self defence class. I had a friend who bought a gun to protect herself from a situation like what Susan has described, ans was actually raped, and then killed with her own gun. Be smart, and be prepared.
Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: odinn7 on November 30, 2005, 09:04:16 AM This is quite the situation. If a gun is out of the question (you live in Texas, who there doesn't have a gun?) you may consider one of those stun guns. I hear they are quite effective and, all things considered, not too expensive. Let us know what develops. Also, Susan, I'm sure all of us can appreciate your concern for this girl but you need to look out for yourself. You've tried to get her to listen and she won't. It's too bad but if that's how it is, worry about yourself and stay alert. We don't want anything bad to happen to you.
100,000 volt Stun Gun (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/product.asp?dept_id=2019&sku=DBA-360&imgid=&mscssid=LHC9HQFNC1MB8HN59A72SKKK2ND09046) Post Edited (11-30-05 08:25) Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: peter johnson on November 30, 2005, 09:16:53 AM Restraining orders are expensive and useless -- We got one put on my wife's ex twice & he took us to court twice & got them overturned. We're out over $7000 in legal bills with nothing to show.
If he's on the work property, he can be charged with trespassing. Have you discussed all this with whoever the boss of bosses is where you work? They would have to press charges, but this is a genuinely enforceable thing. Also the gun thing ain't all that bad an idea. If this guy is as "agitated" as you describe, physical harm is a real possibility. We own a short-barreled shotgun & have made it widely known that we keep it handy near our front door. Haven't seen the ex in quite some time. peter johnson/denny crane Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Zapranoth on November 30, 2005, 01:00:09 PM Agree with odinn7. Weapons are for those who know how to use them... and don't get anything truly dangerous, like a gun, unless you're 100% sure that you would shoot and kill someone to defend yourself. A stun weapon is not a bad idea; there are some powerful ones made these days.
But like he said, it's your awareness of the situation that is the true weapon. Also it sounds like your friend has been so used to abusive behavior that it's normal-seeming to her. You know as well as I do that if she doesn't realize this about herself, she's just going to find someone else like him. (And drag concerned people like you into more situations like this.) Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Susan on November 30, 2005, 01:37:37 PM Well I am concerned for her, but the restraining order idea was not only for her good but ours, because him coming up here in the middle of the day and behaving the way he did is not normal. So that puts everyone else in a bad situation
Btw, i'm not getting a gun. I digress....the coworker doesn't appear to have been in a physicall abusive relationship with him but she did say one reason why she left was that he was too controlling. Someone showing up two weeks in a row on their day off and trying to get in our office bugs me...because there ARE so many incidents where distraught ex's get a gun and decide to lash out. He's having to raise "his" kids alone now and trying to swing the mortgage..you would think someone with kids wouldn't behave that way. As for home safety (keep bouncing back and forth to that) - what if i just put a sign on the door that says "Beware of scientologist" Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: odinn7 on November 30, 2005, 02:13:05 PM Zapranoth wrote:
> Agree with odinn7. Weapons are for those who know how to use > them... and don't get anything truly dangerous, like a gun, > unless you're 100% sure that you would shoot and kill someone > to defend yourself. A stun weapon is not a bad idea; there > are some powerful ones made these days. > > But like he said, it's your awareness of the situation that is > the true weapon. > > Also it sounds like your friend has been so used to abusive > behavior that it's normal-seeming to her. You know as well as > I do that if she doesn't realize this about herself, she's just > going to find someone else like him. (And drag concerned > people like you into more situations like this.) I strongly believe in the use of guns for protection and I would have no moral problems with putting someone down that was trying to harm my family. We own plenty of guns and even though I am no marksman, I am confident in my ability and my wife's ability with our guns in case we ever need them. She knows how to load and use each one that we have and she's angry anyway so I doubt she'd have any qualms about pulling the trigger on someone. However, if you aren't confident with your ability, a gun is most likely not the way to go for a number of reasons as has already been stated here. Yes, the fact that you are aware of what's going on and that you realize the potential situation that could arise, you are already way ahead. Just don't get caught off guard. It may seem kind of doom and gloom and I don't want to scare you further Susan, but you should also plan in your mind what you would do if he came in shooting. Plan escape routes and hiding places. Consider these from all directions that he could come from. Chances are this will never happen but the fact that you've brought up your concerns about it means that you believe there is a possibility. It can only help you to have a plan of action in the event that this ever comes to light. I hope I am helping you and not causing you any further stress. I am also completely familiar with the abusive relationship cycle as one of my sisters has gone through it. She always likes the "bad boy" but that usually means that he's just a waste of life woman beater and non-working bum. The most recent guy she was married to beat her and all and despite what was said to her, she couldn't leave him and stayed with him for over 7 years. She was always making excuses for why he did what he did and he would apologize to her and always was going to seek help but within weeks it would happen again. I once told her to crush his skull with something heavy while he was passed out and then claim self defense. There were plenty of records of the cops being called for this stuff so I seriously doubt anyone would have questioned her. Well, she was too weak to do such a thing. I often thought about curing the situation myself but she's on the other side of the country and I couldn't take the chance on having anything I did affect my family. Anyway, she finally did get away from him but now she's seeing another "bad boy". Whether he will be the same remains to be seen. She's in her 40's so she should know better but it continues anyway. It's almost as if she feels that she deserves this way of life. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Flangepart on November 30, 2005, 03:25:22 PM Odinn7 has good advice, Susan. I'd advise what he said is usefull...scary, but usefull.
If you only hear the major media, they will not tell stories of where guns save lives, even when not used. Its not in their data bank. A gun is a tool. It does a job. People are the responsable parties. If you don't feel you can go that far in self defence, by all means use all other in addition to any firearm you might later conciter. Heres a thought for the home front...a dog! I wish we'd had a mutt when that creep stole my car. Dog inhabited yards can be pretty off putting to bad guys, and not nessarily with big dogs like rotties . Even a 60lb Lab is good protection. And, of corse , good company, if you choose the right pup. Even a dog not trained for attack, will defend its home, and by extention, you, the pack leader. Your a sensable gal, Susan, so we hope all goes well. Keep us updated,K? Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: mnpchan on November 30, 2005, 08:21:59 PM The problem with someone in her situation buying a gun for protection from this guy is that this is, assumedly, her first time owning/carrying a gun and when it came right down to it she probably won't be able to bring herself to use it. And even if she did use it it would end up being ineffective due to her stress/fear causing her to not be able to aim/fire correctly. A gun is a bad idea.
A stun gun or even mace, however, is a great idea. Even though the effects of them are temporary they are plenty long enough for your friend to stun him and get the hell out of there. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: ulthar on December 01, 2005, 11:25:02 AM Susan Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > i haven't heard of > too many cases where someone being attacked had > their live saved by their trusty gun..but i've > heard plenty of stories about how the introduction > of a weapon in such situations can often result in > having it used against you. Susan, sorry to butt-in late here, but I wanted to weigh-in on this point. What you "hear" and what is really happening do not coincide. Every single day in this country, someone is protecting their life or the lives of their families with guns. Just because you don't hear about it "on the news" does not mean it is not happening. If you'd like to see some of this, check "The Armed Citizen" reports in American Rifleman. NRA-ILA Armed Citizen Page (http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx) NRA Publications Armed Citizen (http://www.nrapublications.org/armed%20citizen/Index.asp) Armed Citizens (http://www.armed-citizens.com/armdcitz.php) (and click link "Armed Citizens") Before one goes "but that's the NRA, of COURSE they'll say that," keep in mind that "The Armed Citizen" is simply a collection of stories from America's newspapers. It is not content created by the NRA at all. I once came home after working late to find my wife sitting at the kitchen table with her .357 Mag. Someone had driven up our driveway (where we lived at the time we had a 1/4 mile driveway way, way out in the country, and no one EVER casually drove up there for no reason) and it was not me. She was well trained and I have no doubt she would have killed a bad guy had it come to that. I've been known to answer the front door with a gun in my hand. I've also had about 3-1/2 lbs off a 4 lb trigger with the front site blade on a guy's forehead (a guy who had moments before tried to run me down with his truck). In this situation, talking would not have helped; mace would not have helped. And, as much as I am a "blade-man," a knife would not have helped. (A rocket launcher might have, but ... oh well). A good friend of mine, once came out of his front door to see the following scene: his brother was bent over backward tinkering with something, perhaps a lawnmower, and a guy was getting out of the car in their driveway, pulling a gun to shoot his brother in the back. My friend quickly grabbed his .10 ga and opened fire. Luckily (I suppose), he did not kill the guy, but the point is, had he not acted, and had he not been armed, his brother would have been killed. These are just a few anecdotes from my own experience. As I said, guns are used "for the positive protection of the innocent" every single day. I'll be happy to send you a sample list of newspaper sources you can check out yourself, if you are interested. When your survival is at stake, you can choose to play games or not. A gun is a serious weapon, and is not a toy. I agree with the other posts: get training, and practice, practice practice. But having said that, they are EFFECTIVE weapons. They get the job done. In the end, it is of course a personal choice, but in the right hands (and with the right attitude) they get the job done. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: ulthar on December 01, 2005, 12:03:17 PM mnpchan Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The problem with someone in her situation buying a > gun for protection from this guy is that this is, > assumedly, her first time owning/carrying a gun > and when it came right down to it she probably > won't be able to bring herself to use it. And > even if she did use it it would end up being > ineffective due to her stress/fear causing her to > not be able to aim/fire correctly. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest anything you have said is true. Everyone who uses a gun for self defense (or even offense, like the military), including cops, has a "first time," and while it is true those situations are stressful, it seems to work out. Getting your brains beat out, raped or murdered is stressful, too. I am not down-talking mace, it's a good choice. But please don't add to the FUD about guns (assuming one gets training and diligently practices, like with any other important skill) by saying just because she is new at it that she won't be effective. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: ulthar on December 01, 2005, 01:58:55 PM Susan,
I found this site today. Dr. Gary Kleck did a big study on this topic (legit uses of guns for self defense), and of course, since then, there have been many discussions about why these are not in the news. How Often are guns used in self defense? (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html) Several million a year translates to an average of OVER 5400 per day. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: ulthar on December 01, 2005, 02:02:45 PM And, as for the second part of the statement, there's this:
Is a gun an effective means of defense? (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html) Here, Kleck specifically addresses the issue of offender turning a victim's weapon back upon the victim. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: BeyondTheGrave on December 01, 2005, 02:42:31 PM I want to thank you you Ulthar for posting those sites. I go to college and study Criminal Law and every teacher I every had from former Police Offiicer to Former Lawyers keep hammering that if you have a gun for self defense you will most likely kill a family member with it or if some breaks into your house they will use on you. I know it does happen but they always made seem they it happens on a massive scale.
After awhile all the students don't think and just start to agree with the teachers. To be honest I always found kind fishy. Never had proof till now. Now I can argue in favor of protection. Time to stir up trouble. (http://www.smileys.ws/smls/laughing/00000002.gif) Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: odinn7 on December 06, 2005, 10:53:47 AM Susan? Don't leave us hanging like this. You brought this up and it's been almost a week and we haven't heard from you.
I hope you are ok. (one of my few serious moments...don't get too used to it) Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Susan on December 18, 2005, 10:18:49 PM Sorry for not having posted, didn't know anyone was on the edge of their seat. Well here's the update as far as the issue at work with the coworker who's ex is stalking:
One day he kept calling and hanging up over and over. Then he called the police and claimed his house was broke into and that the SWAT guy did it (the one who escorted her the day she returned to get her stuff). It's like somehow he doesn't want to stop until he feels like he's got the upper hand and is somehow sticking it to her. So, on Friday management made a decision. Every other location of my company is high security except for ours. By high I mean patrols in parking lots, security presense everywhere, swipe entry through two doors to get into main buildings, cameras...etc. But our office is like any other ordinary business office in a building. Sad eh? Well I guess this latest issue got management on their toes realizing maybe we need to do something. So what's their grand solution? Now we have to WEAR our badges. Like that's going to make a difference. And they have company security guard on premises in the lobby area. Our doors are wood so anyone could sneak in and take out this geriatric guy. He also isn't much of security, I had my badge hidden and managed to walk right into the office without him even asking if I was an employee. But the ex hasn't showed up, maybe he'll give up. As for home: no more reports of breakins from the infamous robber/rapist. I am however now afraid of my downstairs neighbor who has taken a notion to trying to invite me to dinner constantly with his girlfriend who never talks to me. Don't neighbors know about BUFFER ZONES? Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: trekgeezer on December 18, 2005, 10:27:45 PM Susan, Susan, you're not making us feel any easier about your situation. What happened with the break-in that was terrorizing your neighborhood?
Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Susan on December 18, 2005, 11:07:55 PM Well so far he hasn't struck. The home invasion robberies (attributed to this one guy who was kidnapping or raping and possibly responsible for a murder) seems to have stopped since early November...they said he was linked to some in the summer and then it died down until november so maybe he waits till the hubub dies down before striking again. I read my online Crime Bulletin (http://notes.plano.gov/crimepre.nsf/Crime%20Bulletins%20-%20by%20Offense%20Date?OpenView) so I kinda know what's going on in the neighborhood even if it doesn't make the news. It's crazy, i mean it's a very upscale area of town.
I guess it's the price you pay for living in an apartment, you're just an easier target than a homeowner. I just keep an eye out when i'm outside. Sometimes I kinda think it would be funny to just have a pocket wallet like guys wear and then put nothing but a big heavy rock in my purse whenever i get out of my car to go inside. That way if some idiot steals my purse he'll find nothing but a rock. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: odinn7 on December 18, 2005, 11:34:31 PM Good to hear that A ) you're still alive and well and B ) that things seem to be calming down somewhat.
*edit* adding a B and a ) made a B)...silly board. Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Susan on December 18, 2005, 11:53:02 PM thx :)
Title: Re: OT: Restraining Orders Post by: Just Plain Horse on December 20, 2005, 01:20:42 PM Looks like I missed the party...
Ultimatly, for future reference, I want to hit on one point nobody really mentioned: the motivations of the stalker and the ...stalkee? It's important- and difficult to remember what motivates poeple to adopt these behaviours. What drives a man to follow someone who broke up with him? The hope he can convince his ex to get back together with him? A desire to clear up the situation? Something sinister? Revenge? It's hard to say... it depends upon the person. Maybe he's a total creep... or maybe he's just looking for closure. It's a shame there isn't some sort of network better able to intervene in this kind of domestic situation than the police. A lot of guys could use somebody to talk some sense into them before things go from bad to worse... but where is it? Currently, it's mainly found on bookshelves and magazine racks, and mostly for people who are already aware they aren't quite "over it". Sadly, a lot of the man who end up becoming public enemy number one are still "out of the loop". Obviously, our society really doesn't foster much honest and genuine male to male communication. Oh, it's great fodder for comedies- a man incapable of saying what he's feeling, Ha Ha Ha let's all laugh at the absurdity of the male voice- but the idea of a male support group is given the fish without a bicycle routine. To make a better man, rethink the system that influences him... before he has to be put down like a rabid animal. I've seen the "stalker scenario" from every angle, and after understanding what it means to be accused and to have all your actions misread as threats, (and to be thereafter threatened genuinely with violence myself), I've come to have a somewhat different perspective on this matter than most here. I've also gone out of my way- most likely because of this knowledge- to help both females and males face the rage of violent stalkers in confrontation. These guys aren't thinking clearly, and it's written all over their faces. Some are conniving, some are cowardly, some are suicidal... but one thing is a constant: desperation. We obsess on the victims after they've been murdered, but nobody takes the time to step in and stop it from happening... to stop the confusion before the only resolution becomes murder. At this time of year, when we pretend to promote joy and peace, while people get crammed together in one house for an anxiously awaited meal, I hope we take a hour to communicate with those people who don't communicate with the outside world much. Even Jeffery Dahmer visited his parents at Christmas. Yes, it is a tightrope walk, and perhaps the internet can be something of a buffer as well as a tool... but communication is important, and everybody has something to say... even if they don't know how... God, I feel like dr. Phil... |