Boys Adrift READ this book, NOW! Esp if you have boys...

[ulthar]

Without a doubt there is a cultural shift that Indy brought up that is true.

Oh wow, that's a HUGE understatement.

Only a mere 200 years ago, a 12 year old boy could be a junior OFFICER on war ship.  To have a career as an officer in the Royal Navy, one had to pass for Lt. by 20 or 21.  Old Lieutenants were viewed as failures, that there must be something wrong with their seamanship or leadership skills.

Since becoming a lieutenant required 8 years of sea time to even take the test, well, the math is easy.  If you wanted that career, you enter enter the service as a Mid by 12-14, or all was done before it even started.  

By about 15 or 16, they had enough seniority and experience to be battery officers (responsible for a group of guns, say 6-10).  Ever study the anatomy of a Naval battle during the Age of Sail?  It was positively BRUTAL, and those teenagers were leaders, not 'boys' held in the safest parts of the ship til it was over.

By 18, they often were "Master's Mates," which were essentially non-commissioned lieutenants.  Upon becoming a Lt., they had about 10 years of active sea duty under their belts.

Contrast that with now in the US:  we call college students, in their TWENTIES, "kids."  Not only do we not give teens any responsibility, we all too often withhold it from those that practically beg for it.  We coddle them and "nurture" biological adults for up to TEN YEARS or more after their bodies have matured.

To put a 15 year old boy in harms way on the gun deck of a warship now would be considered extremely irresponsible.  Our "Midshipmen" are college age students studying at Annapolis, only technically beginning their training at 18 or so and completing it by 22 or so.  They then enter the Navy as Ensign and begin working up to Lt, in their mid twenties, and may have no real, practical experience on the sea, and almost certainly not in war, upon receiving their commission.

Sorry for what is probably a ramble, but what I lament here is the loss of the "apprentice" system of education.  What has not been mentioned explicitly in this thread, though perhaps hinted at, is the transition over a 100 years or so from "active" learning by DOING to "book learning" that fosters no real activity or experience.  Gone are the days of a future blacksmith working in the shop at 10-12 and growing up into the profession.  Now, we sit at desks, inside buildings with artificial weather (heating and air conditioning) rather than being outside, draw on computers rather than really build things, etc.

Heck, even in chemistry classes I've seen the lab exercises are being done on "computer simulations" because it's cheaper than buying all those chemicals.

Indeed, we even use derogatory language in education..."do it this way in class, but in the REAL WORLD...."  This puzzles me.

[Flick James]

Without a doubt there is a cultural shift that Indy brought up that is true.

Oh wow, that's a HUGE understatement.

Only a mere 200 years ago, a 12 year old boy could be a junior OFFICER on war ship.  To have a career as an officer in the Royal Navy, one had to pass for Lt. by 20 or 21.  Old Lieutenants were viewed as failures, that there must be something wrong with their seamanship or leadership skills.

Since becoming a lieutenant required 8 years of sea time to even take the test, well, the math is easy.  If you wanted that career, you enter enter the service as a Mid by 12-14, or all was done before it even started.  

By about 15 or 16, they had enough seniority and experience to be battery officers (responsible for a group of guns, say 6-10).  Ever study the anatomy of a Naval battle during the Age of Sail?  It was positively BRUTAL, and those teenagers were leaders, not 'boys' held in the safest parts of the ship til it was over.

By 18, they often were "Master's Mates," which were essentially non-commissioned lieutenants.  Upon becoming a Lt., they had about 10 years of active sea duty under their belts.

Contrast that with now in the US:  we call college students, in their TWENTIES, "kids."  Not only do we not give teens any responsibility, we all too often withhold it from those that practically beg for it.  We coddle them and "nurture" biological adults for up to TEN YEARS or more after their bodies have matured.

To put a 15 year old boy in harms way on the gun deck of a warship now would be considered extremely irresponsible.  Our "Midshipmen" are college age students studying at Annapolis, only technically beginning their training at 18 or so and completing it by 22 or so.  They then enter the Navy as Ensign and begin working up to Lt, in their mid twenties, and may have no real, practical experience on the sea, and almost certainly not in war, upon receiving their commission.

Sorry for what is probably a ramble, but what I lament here is the loss of the "apprentice" system of education.  What has not been mentioned explicitly in this thread, though perhaps hinted at, is the transition over a 100 years or so from "active" learning by DOING to "book learning" that fosters no real activity or experience.  Gone are the days of a future blacksmith working in the shop at 10-12 and growing up into the profession.  Now, we sit at desks, inside buildings with artificial weather (heating and air conditioning) rather than being outside, draw on computers rather than really build things, etc.

Heck, even in chemistry classes I've seen the lab exercises are being done on "computer simulations" because it's cheaper than buying all those chemicals.

Indeed, we even use derogatory language in education..."do it this way in class, but in the REAL WORLD...."  This puzzles me.

Either that or you OVERSTATED it.

[Flick James]

BTW, I'm not trying to push any "right" way to raise a kid, as if any person or culture has gotten it all figured out.

[ulthar]

Either that or you OVERSTATED it.

Me?  Never!   

[indianasmith]

I think our society could benefit a great deal if we all adopted a bit more of Teddy Roosevelt's "strenuous life."  I'm 47 and running to fat now, but I can still walk a lot of younger folks into the ground during one of my river rambles.  When I was 30, no 20 year old could keep up with me on an all day artifact hike.

Here's a bit of TR wisdom:

"Avoid hitting someone whenever it is honorably possible to do so.
But, if you must hit - NEVER hit soft!"

[BTM]

I've killed and skinned mink for Ted Dickhead Nugent

Whoa, seriously?!  You've worked for Ted Nugent?

BTW sorry to hear about your son.  I'm not a parental expert and, I hope I'm not overstepping by giving advice, but I dunno, have you done anything with him lately?  I mean, father-son type stuff?  Maybe a bit of real world experience will help him want to play game less and do more real things. 

[Newt]

...what I lament here is the loss of the "apprentice" system of education.  What has not been mentioned explicitly in this thread, though perhaps hinted at, is the transition over a 100 years or so from "active" learning by DOING to "book learning" that fosters no real activity or experience.  Gone are the days of a future blacksmith working in the shop at 10-12 and growing up into the profession.  Now, we sit at desks, inside buildings with artificial weather (heating and air conditioning) rather than being outside, draw on computers rather than really build things, etc.

Indeed.

My paternal grandfather grew up into smithing, in his father's shop.  My Dad grew up working on the home farm (mink, btw: Hi RC!).  My grandfather sent my father to medical school.

But I was moved to comment here because of a different coincidence:  I received a letter from my provincial government just last week inviting me to apply for a position on the governing body of the newly-formed Ontario College of Trades.  "Responsible for establishing training standards and addressing issues that are of concern to the various skilled trades sectors"  I have been registered with their Apprenticeship Program for years as an employer/trainer because I take working students.   So it appears that our government feels there is a need for increased official support of apprenticeships.

Oh: and my blacksmith is looking for an apprentice...

[ulthar]

Maybe a bit of real world experience 

Mike, a good follow-up book for the Boys Adrift book that you might like to check out is Last Child in the Woods: How To Save Our Children from Nature Deficit Disorder.

[Doggett]

Oh: and my blacksmith is looking for an apprentice...

I'll get my passport.

[Zapranoth]

I'll just chime in about the endocrine theories... As George Carlin said,

"Saliva has been found to cause stomach cancer.   But only if swallowed in small amounts... over long periods of time!"

(Many of these from-the-hip observational studies about environmental effects are poorly done and underpowered, and rife with confounding variables.)

[RCMerchant]

I've killed and skinned mink for Ted Dickhead Nugent

Whoa, seriously?!  You've worked for Ted Nugent?

BTW sorry to hear about your son.  I'm not a parental expert and, I hope I'm not overstepping by giving advice, but I dunno, have you done anything with him lately?  I mean, father-son type stuff?  Maybe a bit of real world experience will help him want to play game less and do more real things. 

I raised my kids alone untill I met Tara Sue-They were 9 and 11 by then. She died in 2008. I raised my kids. I did EVERYTHING with my boys. Fact is-II dont think technology f**ked us. What f**ked us is as old as time. Poverty. And I look at America like China was before Mao took over- Communism got a grip because they pandered to the poor.we are over run buy forgien intrest-we better get a grip-or anarchy is gonna happen. Dont think so? Look at Russia.
I think our tree is about to fall. China's playing a waiting game. Watch.

[RCMerchant]

I've killed and skinned mink for Ted Dickhead Nugent

Whoa, seriously?!  You've worked for Ted Nugent?

Yeah-He's an a***ole. I worked at his mink-fox-concentration camp-in Marcellus. Gruesome. We would skin the mink and grind the carcasses to feed back to the mink. Gruesome. And he paid s**t too. f**k Ted.

[The Gravekeeper]

Haven't read, but I see that attitude all over campus here. Thankfully most of the afflicted drop out after their second year when they realize that any given university course is work. And as for the entitled attitude I see in people in my age: The world doesn't owe you anything. It gave you life, for cryin' out loud! You owe it!

[BTM]

Sorry for what is probably a ramble, but what I lament here is the loss of the "apprentice" system of education.  What has not been mentioned explicitly in this thread, though perhaps hinted at, is the transition over a 100 years or so from "active" learning by DOING to "book learning" that fosters no real activity or experience.  Gone are the days of a future blacksmith working in the shop at 10-12 and growing up into the profession.  Now, we sit at desks, inside buildings with artificial weather (heating and air conditioning) rather than being outside, draw on computers rather than really build things, etc.

Believe it or not, that's mentioned in the book as well.  The author talks about the two different types of knowledge (he uses two foreign words, can't recall offhand what they are) but basically, in English, one is the type of knowledge you learn by reading, and passively learning things, and the other is the type you get from actual experiences.  He gives a good example on why the latter is just as important as the former. 

One example that really struck me was this time he was in Europe (think it was Finland, but I'm not sure) observing a kindergarten class.  They took a field trip to a nearby forest and had the kids separate into groups of two.  One child would blindfold the other, lead the kid over to a particular try and have the kid touch and smell the tree without their eyes for about a minute or so.  Then, the sighted child would lead the other child away from the tree, spin them around, remove the blindfold, and the child would try to find "their" tree. 

The author thought this was all kind of silly, so the teacher insisted on trying it with him.  He said that when the blindfold was removed it was an amazing experience: in just a few seconds of looking around the forest he could spot "his" tree, even though he hadn't seen it earlier. 

That whole thing really stuck out in my mind.