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Author Topic: HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DOA  (Read 10448 times)
ulthar
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« on: November 16, 2006, 03:54:05 PM »

Previously, we had a big discussion about the 'death' of DVD.  Well, it seems so those DVD killers are not being as well received as once thought.  There are lots of reasons, of course.

Why HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are DOA
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BeyondTheGrave
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2006, 04:33:13 PM »

It does raise some good points. I still feel that HD-DVD will be the new "thing" but it going to be a long way off before it becomes "standard". Blue-Rays dead. Sony comes out with all those formats mini discs for one and fail. Thats why I have a feeling PS3 is not going to do well as PS2. Well that and price.

As for downloading music and movies I agree thats even longs ways off too.Try to find certain bands or movies. I went ot Itunes and looked up "Judge" a 80s New York Hardcore band and didn't even find it. Like the article says until their a better backlog of music and movies it still not going to be widely used either.

Looks like DVDs are here to stay  TeddyR
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ulthar
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 04:49:09 PM »

As for downloading music


Probably not new to anybody but me, but I recently discovered UnsignedBandsWeb.com.  In particular, I really like the music of 2 Cubic Feet and a couple of others.
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Andrew
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 05:04:18 PM »

At some points I think the problem for new technology is overcoming the hill of an established format.  In the case of CDs, this was pretty simple.  The quality improvement from tape to CD was dramatic and reached the level of what consumers expected.  DVD did this too, being much higher quality than VHS and more portable (the latter the reason LD never reached critical mass).

I wonder if the next format will not be a disc-like one, but more like flash drives with your movie.  The great part about that would be plugging it into your home "entertainment hard drive" and installing the movie for future viewings.  I love the idea of having all my films on a hard drive array.  Of course, then some sort of offsite backup service will become important.  If that happens, internet storage could well become less expensive. 
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dean
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2006, 05:52:40 AM »


Interesting article, but I don't really agree that they're dead.  I get the overwhelming sense that people are waiting the battle out before they invest in HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.

As someone who works in this industry, I can first of all tell you that the picture and audio quality are awesome from these formats, but the kicker is that to see it properly you need the tv/video source to show it.  I don't mean should, but need. 

See the trouble is, standard televisions just can't match the same quality that these big screen plasmas and lcds can get.

More and more people are buying these larger, better quality screens, but it's still a bit pricey.  Though these prices will fall by this time next year, we should see more people lapping these up. 

I suppose whoever grabs the US market will be the winner, but if I was a betting man I'd say that Blu-Ray is more poised to take the market here in my country than HD-DVD just based on the advertising and effort that Sony and co are putting into getting their product noticed.

When HD-DVD was released here I barely noticed a ripple.  Walking into a hifi store yesterday I saw a massive Blu-Ray stand with a great demo on it, so based on that alone I'm thinking 'Blu-Ray is winning, but realistically whoever has the better price will win.

The trick is that no matter what, your exisiting dvds will still be able to play on these machines which is why this whole situation is different than any of the other big format battles.

Tapes couldn't be used on CD Players etc etc.

So this tells you that there won't be a mass move to either format, but more a gradual transition, so therefore the format with more patience will probably win.  Since Sony has the PS3, and therefore a legitimate alternative reason to stay backing their product, I feel that they'll have an advantage, but sadly the PS3 won't tear up the gaming market anywhere near the PS2 did.

Ah well.  I can't afford any of that stuff properly anyways so it's not like I'm stressing too much about it.
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Yaddo 42
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2006, 06:51:02 AM »

I agree with part of the article, the next generation of consumers and the leading edge folks that embrace new stuff are moving beyond media on a packaged physical item like a tape, disk, widget of the moment. A song, movie, album (a rapidly aging concept unfortunately), photo, video game, etc. is a program or file they download or copy (legally or not). It only physically exists when they need to move it to another place or want to customize it for their own use or for someone else.

Music CDs took off not just when the the price dropped, but when boomer consumers replaced and upgraded their aging media of the music they loved. They got easier to tote, (mostly) better sounding versions, of music they already knew they liked. The upgrade cycle has gotten shorter and shorter, and many people resent it.

When on-demand and straight legal downloads become cheaper, easier, have a broader selection, and become mostly idiot-proof, they will take over. Standard DVD players have gotten stupid cheap, but the format is not that old to the average consumer. I'm still on the first APEX machine I bought, I'd balk at shelling out for the kind of video equipment I'd need to appriecate the upgrades in image and sound when I know as an American the way TV is broadcast will change in few years anyway. I know I want to make as few switches as possible when the time comes. Why take on another one I don't have to when what I've got now works for what I want?
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raj
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2006, 02:36:50 PM »

For me though, I like having a physical copy in case my harddrive goes down.  Aren't we constantly told to back up our data?  Sure, if I just want to rent a movie I don't need a physical copy, but if I want to watch it over and over again I want a hard copy.  Then again, I am someone who still buys record albums -- the ones on those big vinyl discs.  I can't decide if I'm a pack rat or just a dinosaur.
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ulthar
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2006, 05:14:19 PM »

For me though, I like having a physical copy in case my harddrive goes down.  Aren't we constantly told to back up our data?  Sure, if I just want to rent a movie I don't need a physical copy, but if I want to watch it over and over again I want a hard copy.

Couple of comments:
  • Strictly speaking, if you REALLY want to retain your media, should you not back it up even if it is what you call 'hard copy'?  I've heard of folks burning a copy DVD for routine watching and keeping the original 'safe.'  So, backups are not only applied to electronically stored digital media I guess.
  • What you say is absolutely true: the digital media should be backed up.  BUT, with electronic digital meda, the backup can be smaller, too.  Think of something like a usb flash drive that could hold 100 movies
  • As flash begins to replace magnetic media more and more, you'll probably see fewer data losses due to drive failure.  ANY device can fail (including DVD, VHS, vinyl album, etc), but flash type technologies will probably prove to be considerably more durable than contemporary hard drives.  And the memory spaces are getting up there - you can buy an SD card for a Nikon digital camera that can hold 1000 pictures; further increases in information density would lend this sort of thing to storage of video very well.
  • As a purest, I prefer vinyl albums as well.  I think with the right equipment, they DO sound better.  However, I have (finally) phased out my old turntable due to difficulty in finding repair parts for it.  Oh well.  (for perspective, I just got a dedicated CD player THIS YEAR).
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Andrew
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2006, 05:35:08 PM »

For CDs that I listen to often, I would much prefer to keep my original safe and beat around a burned copy.

Flash drives have turned out to be much more durable than disks or CD/DVDs.  I have seen flash drives go through the wash and still work.  Ditto with ones that suffered major crush damage to the casing and we could still get the data.  Perhaps the only bad thing I have seen is when the file system on one gets screwed up.  You do not see that on a finished CD or DVD.  On the other hand, it appears that the technology has matured, I have not seen a newer flash drive's file system get so screwed up we had to format it.
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Andrew Borntreger
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Ash
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2006, 05:33:32 AM »

I have a question...

Do you have to have an HD-TV to watch HD-DVD's?

I'm thinking of buying an Xbox 360 and purchasing the optional HD-DVD drive for an extra $200 but my Sony TV isn't an HD model.
Can I play HD-DVD's on a TV that isn't HD?   Question

« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 08:30:53 AM by Ashthecat » Logged
dean
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2006, 08:08:26 AM »


Ash you can play them, sure, and they'll still look good, but to get the true high quality that these pictures are supposed to get, it's almost useless not having a HD capable tv.

The reasoning is that normal tvs just physically can't reproduce the quality that these dvds are supposed to have in them.

The funny thing is, some people would actually prefer it that way.  You see, people are so used to vhs/normal tv that for some people watching high quality tv/dvds actually detract from the experience in the sense that the quality is so good that you can pick out more flaws, which I find quite amusing.

I'm not in that category of course, since high definition tv is really excellent quality and I think it's the bee's knees [to use a somewhat archaic expression] but yeah, to answer your question Ash, you can play HD-Dvds on your screen, or at least you should be able to, but to get the true high quality picture you'd need a high definition screen.

I suppose the question to ask is how are you connecting the 360 to the screen since there's a number of differing video cables to use, and your current tv might not support them.  There's essentially four main types of connection [in order of quality]:

Composite/RCA: Your standard yellow video cable

S-Video: a round, five [?] pin connection

Component: Red green blue cables which provide an excellent quality of picture.

HDMI:  High definition digital cable.  So far I haven't been able to see a large difference between HDMI and Component, but I'm sure the diffence may come into play more with Blu ray etc.

What type of tv do you have Ash, and what are the connections on the back?  If it's new, it may have a component connection even if it's not an LCD/Plasma screen, and that means it will look better than the Coax/S-video option.

Anyways, I hope that sort of helps...
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Ash
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 08:30:09 AM »

My Sony Wega TV is pretty versatile when it comes to connecting stuff to it.
There are dozens of different ports on the back of it.

It can accept:
Regular coax cable

Standard RCA cables

S-Video

and...

Component video cables.

I believe it also accepts HDMI cables but I'm not 100% on that without getting behind my TV or looking in the manual to check.
(I'm too tired to do it right now...my TV is a pain in the ass to look behind and I can't remember where I put the manual)

What does the HDMI input port look like?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 08:38:21 AM by Ashthecat » Logged
dean
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2006, 08:43:41 AM »

My Sony Wega TV is pretty versatile when it comes to connecting stuff to it.
There are dozens of different ports on the back of it.

It can accept:
Standard RCA cables

S-Video

and...

Component video cables.

I believe it also accepts HDMI cables but I'm not 100% on that without getting behind my TV or looking in the manual to check.
(I'm too tired to do it right now...my TV is a pain in the ass to look behind and I can't remember where I put the manual)

What does the HDMI input port look like?



It's a flat rectangular cable: http://www.plasma.com/monster/largeimages/hdmi400-6m.jpg

I'd doubt that it has HDMI, but like I said, that's not such a big deal, since that component will do the job great.  HDMI seems to be a bit of a waste at the moment and pointless for your screen.  That component cable's handy though.

http://www.sony.com.au/category.jsp?categoryId=23613

Is something like that your tv? If so it's HD ready so I'd say you're good to go, and it should look pretty good.
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Ash
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2006, 08:50:43 AM »

I looked behind my TV and it does not have HDMI inputs.
But my Sony DVD Dream Home Theater System does!

This is what I have.

So...do you think I could run it if I ran it through my DVD Dream System?

How would I hook it up?   Question
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 08:58:46 AM by Ashthecat » Logged
dean
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2006, 09:33:41 AM »

I looked behind my TV and it does not have HDMI inputs.
But my Sony DVD Dream Home Theater System does!

This is what I have.

So...do you think I could run it if I ran it through my DVD Dream System?

How would I hook it up?   Question




I wouldn't bother with HDMI, but it would certainly be worthwhile running digital audio [if you can] from the Xbox through to the home theater system.  That way when you play a game that's made with surround sound it will actually be surround sound instead of just stereo [the red/white cable that most systems usually have]

The reasoning behind not using HDMI is because your tv simply doesn't have it, so to get the picture to the screen you'd essentially be down-converting into component anyways, since that's the only way to get the picture from the hometheatre to the screen.  But I'd say you're all set.  I did a quick search to try and find the specs on the Sony Hometheater system, but I didn't find exactly what I was looking for, but I'm assuming that you can run audio or picture through the surround sound speakers as an auxillary input on the dvd player [since I don't see an amp, just the player and speakers]  Just don't spend too much on the cables [some of them are a bit of a rip off.] Especially since you might be looking at at least $100 for a few, depending on the length you need.

Probably worthwhile having a chat with whoever you got the system from for the exact details on what you need before you go off and buy something, only to realise you need to spend another few hundred to get it right, but I'd say that you're under control. 

Even if you don't get the HD-DVD side of it, it's still worthwhile connecting the 360 up from the audio perspective at least, so that it runs through your surround system.

Hope my vague advice helps.  I'm not an expert at all this stuff by any means, just a fan of this sort of thing who happens to work in the industry, as new as I might be at it!
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