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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2007, 04:21:18 PM »

(First post, woohoo!)
I started playing tabletop RPG's with Rifts back in 2002.  I soon dropped that system when I realized how horribly unbalanced the game was.  Then I started GMing Big Eyes Small Mouth.  Now my big thing is Deadlands: Hell on Earth.  I have started collecting all the suplements before they get hard to find.

As far as computer/console rpgs go.  I have played Fallout and Fallout 2 and I ador those games. I have Oblivion for my XBox 360 and I'm looking forward to the relase of Fallout 3.

However, I LOATHE JRPGs.  Except for Final Fantasy XII, that one is actually okay.
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2007, 07:11:10 PM »

Oblivion is the sole reason I want an Xbox 360. Well, that and the eventual Halo 3.
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2007, 01:50:34 AM »

I am also convinced, by the way, that the first edition DMG is THE worst written book ever.  As in, if you could translate the raw badness of non-MST3K'd "Manos" into poorly written book-ness, you'd have Gygax's first ed DMG.


Wow.  Just, wow.

I've read/heard complaints about how the Spelljammer rules were far from comprehensible over the years (mostly from people who don't understand it was a supplement, not a game unto itself) but, seriously, the 1st ED DMG is what you consider the worst written book ever?

May I kindly direct you to my review of the Dragon Wizards e-Book.  That smothers bad until it's dead then takes it's place.

Now if you meant "rule book" then. . .

I remember trying to read that bastard in fifth grade, while everyone else was doing something healthy like tag football.    I was a very, very good reader, even then -- one of the best in my class, for sure -- and that book taxed me.


There's your problem right there.  The DMG is nothing without a PHB.  Of course it helps immensly to come to AD&D from D&D, which at least took the time to spell things out for the reader.  If the DMG was your first exposure to RPGs it's no wonder you thought it was bad, doesn't mean it was though.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 01:53:25 AM by Kester Pelagius » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2007, 02:31:22 AM »

I meant "rule book," yeah.

And yes, reading it again after all these years, I still think it's way up there in the hierarchy of stink-dom.  You can't argue with someone's opinion, dude, and mostly we avoid doing that here.   We respect each others' revulsion.   Twirling     Well, except for certain moderators with unhealthy (that is to say, any) Gigli preoccupations...

I should have said "worst rule book I've ever read," since clearly I haven't read them all.  And I did read the DMG after having played Basic (that is in an earlier post, you might have missed it).   It was still a "confusion" spell to me.  Or maybe a "feeblemind.



« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 02:37:36 AM by Zapranoth » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2007, 05:04:16 AM »

There's your problem right there.  The DMG is nothing without a PHB.  Of course it helps immensly to come to AD&D from D&D, which at least took the time to spell things out for the reader.  If the DMG was your first exposure to RPGs it's no wonder you thought it was bad, doesn't mean it was though.

Uh no, that pretty much means it was bad. The concept of a book is to communicate with your reader, and in that respect they failed miserably. It did, however, lead to many local and published variations and rules additions making up for what was left out, poorly written, or contradicted. Of course, in the end result, Gygax and the Blumes did not care about how well written anything was as it gave them the opportunity just to sell more product to make up for deficiencies.

Gygax in the early days of D&D would defend the lack of comprehension in the early rules as an 'open to interpretation' type of rules where gamers added what they needed. As sales increased and TSR released more products, he did a complete turnaround and wrote an editorial specifically denouncing tweaking the rules as only TSR could add to the 'canon' of rules (provided that TSR made lots of money and Gygax and the Blumes were able to cheat employees out of promised stock options).

D&D/AD&D has the distinction of being the first, but they also had the distinction of being among one of the worst.
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2007, 08:18:20 AM »

I think many systems were written pretty poorly when they first came out and over time they were revised and organized better.  Whitewolf's World of Darkness is also a good example.  The first edition of Werewolf was written rather poorly, or at least, it was a collection of great ideas presented rather poorly, as it was unorganized, had a poor table of contents, and the rules were a bit foggy.  First edition Mage wasn't the clearest thing in the world either.  But after they got their ideas ironed-out and actually cared about editing, things made a lot more sense by second edition.

Whitewolf really dropped it though when they recreated the wheel and rewrote their backstory.  Booo.  Now mages come from Atlantis!?  wtf.  Oh well, at least I still have my original World of Darkness books.
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2007, 08:44:05 AM »

I think that parts of the AD&D rules were left unwritten to give people more freedom.  They often resorted to "roll a dice" if you wanted to randomize something, but definitely encouraged the DM and players to brainstorm what would happen if this or that took place.  In other words, giving free reign to the storytelling.  Granted, later systems came up with ideas that were fairly easy to operate within and still tell the story.

We've had whole gaming sessions taken up by following the strange tangents that sprang to mind when one of the characters did something bizarre.  There is no way for the rules to cover every single possibility.
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2007, 10:12:28 AM »

There is no way for the rules to cover every single possibility.

That's why you were supposed to subscribe to Dragon and eventually Dungeon magazine. Remember, E. Gary said that the players are not suppose to improvise the rules; he was (so you could pay him).

*On a side note: After the takeover of SPI by TSR, several attendees of the following Origins convention wore a special button which read "E. Coli eats sh*t; so does E. Gary". (I provided the asterisk as it was amazingly absent on the button)
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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2007, 06:35:26 PM »

I meant "rule book," yeah.

I figured that much have been what you might have meant.  Still that "book" I valiantly tried to review stands out in my mind as the worst gaming related product I've ever read, to date, and you know what they say about misery loving company.

Unless you didn't read it in which case. . .   Hatred

j/k

And yes, reading it again after all these years, I still think it's way up there in the hierarchy of stink-dom.  You can't argue with someone's opinion, dude, and mostly we avoid doing that here.   We respect each others' revulsion.   Twirling     Well, except for certain moderators with unhealthy (that is to say, any) Gigli preoccupations...

WTF is a Gigli, that some sort of fetish perversion?   BounceGiggle

ANYway all I have to say in RE: to worst written rulebooks is be glad you've never read Cyborg Commandos.  Oddly enough that was also written by Gygaz.  Hmm.

I should have said "worst rule book I've ever read," since clearly I haven't read them all.  And I did read the DMG after having played Basic (that is in an earlier post, you might have missed it).   It was still a "confusion" spell to me.  Or maybe a "feeblemind.

I'm not sure if there was much of a difference between print runs but, FWIW, my DMG was the one with the wizard opening the double doors.  And, yes, there were references to rules that were nowhere to be found, long winded diatribes bordering on fetishism about number crunching and charts that had to real relevance, not to mention the numerous contradictions in certain of the more expansive rules sections but if you took a yellow highlighter and underlines the relevants bits and took a pink highlighter to underline the stuff that might be useful and ignored the rest and relied on the PHB for the bulk of your gaming needs. . .

You'd be golden.  Unless you encountered a rules lawyer, a particularly evil fiend, then G-d have mercy on your pitiful soul  for not even a Exorcist will take on one of those devils!
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« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2007, 06:40:08 PM »

I think many systems were written pretty poorly when they first came out and over time they were revised and organized better.  Whitewolf's World of Darkness is also a good example.  The first edition of Werewolf was written rather poorly, or at least, it was a collection of great ideas presented rather poorly, as it was unorganized, had a poor table of contents, and the rules were a bit foggy.  First edition Mage wasn't the clearest thing in the world either.  But after they got their ideas ironed-out and actually cared about editing, things made a lot more sense by second edition.

Sounds like the problems with the boxed set of Stormbringer and it's modules.  Lots of grammer errors, map keys that were TOTALLY wrong, IIRC there was even an errata sheet for the errata printed in the book!  At opposite end was M.E.R.P.  Very well written.  Professionally presented.  Yet no one (in my gaming group anyway) would go near it with a ten foot pole.  Apparently the rules were "too hard" to grasp.
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« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2009, 12:13:08 PM »

I've played my fair share of RPGs, too.  My longest-running campaign was with AD&D (which I DMd), while the best campaign I played in was the Dragonlance 5th Age game (right before WOTC bought out TSR).  I've also played Rifts, Heroes Unlimited, a Final Fantasy RPG, a friend's attempt at a Gundam RPG, and my own home-grown systems.  I'm starting up a Silver Age Sentinels game in a week because I've had a longtime desire to try a superhero RPG.
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« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2009, 03:45:38 PM »

I used to play D&D and TOP SECRET back in the day.  We also tried TRAVELLER, but we couldn't get into it.

The only role playing games I get into these days are "Out of Town Business Man and the Wicked Nanny" and stuff like that . . . but that's another story entirely.

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« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2009, 09:41:51 PM »

Oooh, I loved Traveller, but our GM was an uber nerd.  I loved the psionics in that game because my character owned the starship and one jerk was trying to take over.  His characters kept dying in unused portions of the ship with their brain stems either burnt out or twisted. He never seemed to catch on.
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« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2009, 10:40:56 PM »

I've played a bunch of RPGS before in the past.  Mostly Pokemon games though.  I don't play them much though since they demand a lot of my time.  I have been getting into the Dragon Quest series though.  Good stories and classic RPG battling.
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« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2009, 11:03:29 PM »

I bought OBLIVION the week it came out, and haven't needed another game since.  I have both SHIVERING ISLES and KNIGHTS OF THE NINE expansion kits, and I have added a really cool downloadable mod called THE LOST SPIRES to the mix.  By the time I do the three main quests, the Spires, the guilds, and all the random adventuring I want, I just start off with a new character and build a new set of skills.  WHAT A GAME!

That being said, I am curious about DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS.  And, of course, I will get ELDER SCROLLS V when it comes out, even if I have to buy a new computer to play it!
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