Hamas TV Kills Off Mickey Mouse Double

[Ash]

I hesitated to get into this discussion out of fear that it would become a flame war.
Thankfully, it hasn't.

I am, and always have been firmly on Israel's side.
I've done extensive reading about the Israel/Palestine conflict and Islamic terrorism in general.

If you're looking for some answers, check out www.marksilverberg.com
I don't always agree with what he says, but his writings are definitely eye-opening and informative.

He sometimes comes across as a bit of a warmonger.
There are several times he basically says, "Kill the terrorist Muslims now!  Before they kill us!"
But the majority of his writings, all of which I have read, are dead on.
He makes some very good points that are worth reading.

His best essay in my opinion is this one:
Paradise Lost: The Decline and Fall of Arabia

He literally hits the nail on the head as to why the Middle East is in the current state it's in.

We are without a doubt, in the middle of a clash of civilazations.

[lester1/2jr]

cheezflix-  lol pay us back!  Israel has cost us BILLIONS and they'ev never paid ANY of it back.  We give them several billion every year,  not to mention the military aid and more to the point TAKING OUT THEIR ENEMIES LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN FOR THEM.  What's this war cost so far  like a trillion dollars?  When are they going to pay us back for THAT?  and how come they aren't part of the coalition of the willing.  also, that history of jerusaelm covers the general history to a large extent.  jerusalem does not have a different history than Palestine.  The point is it's been arab for 18 centuries till about 100 years ago.


     As far as Russia and china aiding hamas and hezbollah, do you not understand the cold war is over?  Are you afraid lebanon and Palestine are going to go communist? 

Besides, Hezbollah was created by Israels incursion into lebanon in the early 80's.  They rose up out of that in response to the massacres that israel and their allies were doing there.

   and I haven't even mentioned the USS Liberty, Rachael Corrie,   and the rest of israels othjer "accidental" massacring of innocent civilians l,which they then deny.  1,000 killed in lebanion last summer, virtually none of them hezbollah fighters.

  nor have I mentioned jonathan pollard.  Israel is not our ally , they don't have a "right to exist" (no one does) and more to the point, it's not my fault they are in the situation they're in.  We freed jews from the concentration camps, we don't persecute jews here.  Isn't that enough?

[indianasmith]

Sorry, Lester, I just can't go with you on any of your major points.  The central issue boils down to this: the Jews have ONE historic homeland, ONE birthplace of their faith, and ONE place on the globe that is the touchstone of their entire culture, and that is the land of Israel.  The Palestinians were a largely nomadic people who were not that attached to the land until the other Arab states refused to allow them to relocate in  their territories.
    I would also point out that EVERY single Israeli attack on Muslims has been in response to attacks on Israel from those Muslim communities.  Of course there are civilian casualties, when you are dealing with an enemy that places rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals.  And I am sure there are times when Israeli responses have gone overboard - hatred does, after all, breed hatred. 
  But there is no moral eqivalency.  All Israel wants is to be left alone.  All most Islamists want is the utter destruction of Israel as a state and the death or forcible converson of every living Jew.  Why do you insist on carrying a torch for a religous movement that will stamp out every bit of intellectual, religous, and political freedom on earth if given the chance?

  As far as Israel "paying us back", foreign aid is generally not a loan.  We've never asked for any of it back.  And we took out Saddam Hussein not because he was Israel's enemy, but because he was OUR enemy.  The point is there are very few nations we can count on to stand by us  - the Brits, the Aussies, and the Israelis to name three.  Do you really want us to sell out the only thriving democracy in the Middle East to appease the barbarian states that surround it, in some vain hope they will then love us?  The Islamofascists desire nothing less than the destruction of 2000 years of Western Civilization and a return to the Dark Ages.  The destruction of Israel would put them one step closer to achieving that goal.

[lester1/2jr]

The Palestinians were a largely nomadic people who were not that attached to the land until the other Arab states refused to allow them to relocate in  their territories.

that is not true.  any israeli would tell you that's not true.  there's no doubt that the zionists kicked out the palestinians to create israel.  what to do about it is another story, but  virtually every jew in israel today came post 1900 , though there has always been some jewish presence there.  But again, for the previous 18 centuries there were jews all over the world, none of whom felt any need to return to "israel"

I would also point out that EVERY single Israeli attack on Muslims has been in response to attacks on Israel from

ridiculous.  was rachael corrie, a college kid from seattle trrying to stop the demolition of a house attacking them?  were the soldiers so scared of her awesome power they had no choice but to savagely run her over with a bulldozer?  the IDF picks off palestinians for sport. 

All most Islamists want is the utter destruction of Israel as a state and the death or forcible converson of every living Jew.

lol  there are 25,000 jews who live in iran, including one in the parliament.  Besides, those here who can remember back will recall it used to be called the "arab israeli" conflict.  it has only been a religous war relatively recently. 

it's about property.  israel is UN sponsered eminent domain.  israelis are "better" therefore we'll give the land to them.  well,  israelis ARE better!  if we parceled out land on merit they'd have had the entirety of the middle east by 1949.  but we don't.  like i said, it's the law of the jungle.  if the Indians decided they wanted the country back, we'd have to fight them like we did in the first place.  israel has to do that, but they are hiding behind us and we're tkaing the bullets.



why was saddam hussein OUR enemy?  doi you think he was going to invade america?  the kuwaitis p**sed him off because they knew their oil slaves the US would get their chestnuts out of the fire.

Why are we even IN that region?  we can buy oil from whoever.  we buy it from the saudis now.  their official religion is wahabi islam!!  we're funding our own destruction as it is.

why do we have ANY presence in the middle east?  because the israel lobby in washington is powerful. 

The Islamofascists desire nothing less than the destruction of 2000 years of Western Civilization and a return to the Dark Ages.

lol.  then we should get the hell away from them shouldn't we.  if they are that awful shouldn't we be going in the OTHER direction instead of TOWARDS them?

and the middle east isn't at all like that.  iran looks like any american city.  afghanistan and places like that are pretty backward, and the region as a whole is pretty unproductive and depressing but it's not rural and ...fascist!!

not anywhere near the type of authoritarianism you see in , say , China

[indianasmith]

I get the feeling you and I are never going to agree.  Fortunately, we live in a democratic republic where such disagreement is not only allowed but is the very fabric of our existence.  My respect to you, sir - but I still think you are largely wrong.

[flackbait]

I'm glad this hasn't become a huge flame war yet.

Anyways...  The whole problem in the middle east is the fact that there is so many accusations that can be leveled at both sides. Examples could be the Palestinians explode a car bomb or the Israelis accidentally shoot civilians. What makes the conflict worse is that neither side seems to be willing to talk about it. I can't remember exactly which leaders they were, but when it looked like both Israelis and Arabs might make some form of permanant peace, leaders on both sides where assassinated by warmongers on both sides who wanted to continue fighting.

[CheezeFlixz]

cheezflix-  lol pay us back!  Israel has cost us BILLIONS and they'ev never paid ANY of it back.

Never any huh? Again please check you fact and get back with us. They along with Brittan are one of the very few countries that do pay use back for loans with interest. Do not confuse aid and loans.

We give them several billion every year,  not to mention the military aid and more to the point TAKING OUT THEIR ENEMIES LIKE SADDAM HUSSEIN FOR THEM.  What's this war cost so far  like a trillion dollars?  When are they going to pay us back for THAT?  and how come they aren't part of the coalition of the willing.  also, that history of jerusaelm covers the general history to a large extent.  jerusalem does not have a different history than Palestine.  The point is it's been arab for 18 centuries till about 100 years ago.

Roughly 26 percent of what Israel receives in Foreign Military Financing can be spent in Israel for military procurement. From FY88 to FY90, Israel was allowed to use $400 million in Israel. From FY91 to FY98, the amount was increased to $475 million. As U.S. military aid to Israel increased, according to the agreement to cut economic aid, the amout set aside for defense purchases in Israel has increased. In 2006, the figure was $595 million. The remaining 74 percent of FMF was spent in the United States to generate profits and jobs. More than 1,000 companies in 47 states, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico have signed contracts worth billions of dollars through this program. So while the US sends aid to Israel; Israel spends far more in the US on contracts than is sent. (There is a method to the madness.) Why aren't they a member of the coalition of the willing? Politics, you won't get Arab counties to join if Israel is a member. Childish, but that's why.
Man, Israel is the diversion, if they weren't there to give the Arabs some to focus on and be mad at, then who would it be? Sure they bomb us and attack France, Spain England and many more on a small scale relatively speaking, but if Israel wasn't there to take the brunt of the hate, then who would the Arabs hate? US? They have to hate somebody, they always have.


   

As far as Russia and china aiding hamas and hezbollah, do you not understand the cold war is over?  Are you afraid lebanon and Palestine are going to go communist? 

Just pointing out where they get there stuff from, notices you left the #1 contributer off the list Iran ... god I hope they don't go Islamic too.

Besides, Hezbollah was created by Israels incursion into lebanon in the early 80's.  They rose up out of that in response to the massacres that israel and their allies were doing there.

Hezboallah blew up the Marine barracks on Oct 23, 1983 killing 241 fellow service members, many of whom I knew. As I was there, if you are defending Hezboallah you are misguided. We where sent to insure Israel stayed on their side of the line, and Hezboallah blew us up for that? Please ... I'll leave it at that ...

 

and I haven't even mentioned the USS Liberty, Rachael Corrie,   and the rest of israels othjer "accidental" massacring of innocent civilians l,which they then deny.  1,000 killed in lebanion last summer, virtually none of them hezbollah fighters.

Have you ever been in combat? Accidents happen and seems to me only those that have been in combat understand that and the general populous does not. Often you have a fraction of a second to make a choice, the wrong choice could cost you your life, and sometimes it cost the life of others that are innocent. It's not fair, it's not good but it happens. WWII  and Vietnam saw more friendly fire accidental death than have been incurred since the beginning of the Iraqi conflict. And Rachel Corrie, you stand in front of a bulldozer, my monies on the bulldozer to win that contest. Flesh vs bulldozer ... it's a no brainer. If you interfere with military operations bad things happen.
Hezbollah fighters? I'm sorry you mean Hezboallah terrorist ... how civilian casualties did Israel have? Who attacked who first? Who targeted civilian first? 1000's dead, let's try around 800, shall we and we'll be a a little closer to the truth. I always find it funny when one side beat another side more, is this high school football were we send in the 4th sting to let the other side catch up, I always thought the object was to win, don't believe all the propaganda you see on the news, the middle east can work the western media like a puppet on a string and make them dance and sadly the American public will sing along.

  nor have I mentioned jonathan pollard.  Israel is not our ally , they don't have a "right to exist" (no one does) and more to the point, it's not my fault they are in the situation they're in.  We freed jews from the concentration camps, we don't persecute jews here.  Isn't that enough?

So your anti-semitic? At the very least it sounds that way. So what about Pollard? Casper Weinberger, imposed an embargo on information transferred to Israel, unknown to Israel. Therefore, Israel was denied information regarding the development of chemical weaponry in the Arab countries headed by Iraq, which in the meantime according to various publications, had transferred its weapons to Syria. Was what Weinberger did fair or correct? Don't know why they do what they do, but I do understand wanting the information when you're surrounded by people that want you dead, was Israel method the correct one? NO, it was stupid they should have used proper channels, but it's done ... and don't think for a second we don't have a nose snooping around in every country on this earth including Israel. Information makes the world go round and spying is part of the game.

Dude, Israel is not without sin, any more than we are ... conflict is ugly and when it's on your doorstep 24/7 you think and act differently then you would safe 10,000 miles away watching it on CNN, you can't relate, so stop trying. You know I'm glad you know a few things going on over there, enlighten yourself and read and understand all sides before being hasty to blame one over the other. We're all guilty of something, think about it.

[lester1/2jr]

Casper Weinberger, imposed an embargo on information transferred to Israel, unknown to Israel.

so the rule of law doesn't apply to them?  look at what you're saying.  Israel won't even return what he took so we know what they have and what may have ended up in soviet hands.

Do not confuse aid and loans

you are one of the more delsional people I've met.  if we give the 2 billion dolalrs of course they can pay back a loan for less.  an economist recently tabulated that Israel has cost us 1.6 trillion.  TRILLION.  we can't sell planes and stuff to certain countries like saudi arabia because of Israel. 

Man, Israel is the diversion, if they weren't there to give the Arabs some to focus on and be mad at, then who would it be?

each other.  elephants. who cares?  we wouldn't be involved.  what do you have against the US being an independent country?

Just pointing out where they get there stuff from, notices you left the #1 contributer off the list Iran ... god I hope they don't go Islamic too

the cold war was against communism, not islam.  the people in those cuontries are muslims and have been for more than a thousand years.  they haven't GONE anything.  Iran has been Iran for thuosands of years.  They weren't a problem till Israel moved in to the neighborhood.  Now every muslmi country is on the chopping block. 

The US should havea declaration of indepenedence from Israel.

[CheezeFlixz]

We're just going to go back and forth on this, you aren't going to agree with me, I'm not going to agree with you ... and that's not a productive use of my time.

[lester1/2jr]

well, let me say this.  I believe there are two legitmate points of view on this issue.  one is that israel will collapse if the US stops being it's bodyguard.  The other is that it will be just fine, as it was from 1948-67 till our ...socialism in that region began.

I don't think it's acceptable to say that israel is fine without our support but we shold for no good reason continue to hang around the area simply for our own hegemonical ego.  It's also unnacceptable to say Israel will be destroyed and that that is a good outcome.

so it's essentially two different views on how to go about procuring the safety of the people of the region.

I just advocate hands off.  mainly because interventionism has failed so many times

[CheezeFlixz]

well, let me say this.  I believe there are two legitmate points of view on this issue.  one is that israel will collapse if the US stops being it's bodyguard.  The other is that it will be just fine, as it was from 1948-67 till our ...socialism in that region began.

I don't think it's acceptable to say that israel is fine without our support but we shold for no good reason continue to hang around the area simply for our own hegemonical ego.  It's also unnacceptable to say Israel will be destroyed and that that is a good outcome.

so it's essentially two different views on how to go about procuring the safety of the people of the region.

I just advocate hands off.  mainly because interventionism has failed so many times

Not to re-light this debate, if the US hadn't of intervened in WWII were would we be? What would the world be like today? And yes I know if we hadn't have intervened in Vietnam that could have saved a lot of grief and life's there too. Problem is no one knows what the outcome of intervening will be until after it's done, hind site is 20/20 but fore site is a roll of the dice.

To do nothing is often more costly than doing something, even if the something is wrong. It's that old adage it's better to have tired and fail, to have never tired at all.

It would be great to sat back and say"You know what world, you deal with it." but we live in a global economy and it just don't work that way. What happens there, or anywhere effects us here. Not long ago a strike, along with unrest and militants in Nigeria sent oil prices up, the price at the pump here headed up as well. So we have to stick our nose into people busy to protect our own interest. It's not just oil, it's nearly everything you buy is in some way effected by global actions. Sure we'd all like to hold hands, lite candles and sing Kumbaya and everyone get along, it's hasn't happened in all of recorded history and I doubt it ever does. 

[lester1/2jr]

if we hadn't intervened in ww2 I think the germans and the russians would have battled it out.  and I think our entry into the conflict jump started the holocaust, not to mention our refusal to accept jewish immigratns, truly a dark moment in our history.


  I see world war 2 as the consequence of the statecraft of world war 1, particularly the treaty of versailles.  I think the world was for some reason experimenting with big big government at the time, hitler mussolini, and ,yes, FDR.

I think the US is imitated more than it realizes.  I think if we had accepted jewish immigrants in 1924-44 we could have averted not only the holocaust but the tumolt in israel.  i think other countries would hav followed our lead and accepted more jews as refugees.  and I htink now if we lead by example and shrink the government and all the alliances it could spread around the world as well.

[flackbait]

if we hadn't intervened in ww2 I think the germans and the russians would have battled it out.  and I think our entry into the conflict jump started the holocaust, not to mention our refusal to accept jewish immigratns, truly a dark moment in our history.


  I see world war 2 as the consequence of the statecraft of world war 1, particularly the treaty of versailles.  I think the world was for some reason experimenting with big big government at the time, hitler mussolini, and ,yes, FDR.

I think the US is imitated more than it realizes.  I think if we had accepted jewish immigrants in 1924-44 we could have averted not only the holocaust but the tumolt in israel.  i think other countries would hav followed our lead and accepted more jews as refugees.  and I htink now if we lead by example and shrink the government and all the alliances it could spread around the world as well

My first thought is your right about the Jews we should have taken in the refugees. But your wrong about the Germans. Keep in mind that during their first summer offensive against the Russians they managed to get within 30 miles of the Kremlin before being driven back by the Russian winter. It wasn't great tacticians or new technology that save the Russians, it was the Russian winter. So with no aid being provided by Russia's allies"(U.S. and Briton) they would have surely gone under the next year or so. And with out our aid to Briton, the English might have been invaded(I can't say for certain since I don't know how much of our aid helped swing the battle of Briton in the RAF's favor). So with Briton and Russia out of the way, Hitler would have continued his conquest may into the Middle East or North Africa.

Also your forgeting the Japanese. Since we had cut of the oil tap to them, war against us was inevitable. They would have invaded more lands to try to get oil and we would have tried to intervene. Or They would have tried to get to the oil rich Dutch East Indies Which would mean going through our bases in the Philippines. So even if they hadn't hit Pearl Harbor they would have hit another base in the Pacific.

So it was inevitable we would get sucked into World War 2.

[ulthar]

I think...I think

I see ... I think

I think...I think...i think...and I htink

I'm sorry; I've been avoiding getting involved in this thread, as entertaining as it was, but I must point out something.

Your thoughts are interesting, but they are not facts.

You propose some different ways to interpret historical events, and attempt to contextualize them into the modern era.  More power to you.  But you are missing a whole heap of things that REALLY HAPPENED.  US involvement in WWII was inevitable; there's no way we could have just sat by and allowed Germany and Russia duke it out.

For one thing, Germany had an active nuclear research program; in fact, nuclear fission was first observed in Germany and as early as 1942, the Germans had a centrifuge design capable of refining uranium. Some historians believe the intent to destroy some of this infrastructure was behind the Battle of Berlin.

Hitler was driven to annex other lands, and that's something that should make us ALL very wary.  Well, if we value freedom, at all.

Happy Independence Day, by the way.   

[CheezeFlixz]

Yep the US was involved in WWII long before the first troop hit the ground. If it wasn't the "lend-lease" program to Brittan it was the embargo's on Japan for Oil, Coal, Wood and many other products.