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Him
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« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2007, 04:24:03 PM »

Compare their tax burden to ours. What is the highest bracket, and what percentage of income do the respective classes pay? I know it's easy to sit here with my middle class income and damn the rich, but the fact is I believe it is immoral for the government to take half of what a person earns, no matter what their income. I believe in Britain the top marginal tax rate is over 80%. Assuming you ever became wealthy, would you want government empowered to take that much of your money so that you could wait 12 months to see a doctor who can't even speak intelligible English . . . and who just MIGHT be planning to blow up an airport in the near future?

What's more important to you? Your Health or your money? What about your families health?
You talk about paying more taxes, but you are already paying health care premiums to an insurance company. Then you have co-pays and prescription drugs.
Its not about saying damn the rich. The United States is a nation that bends over backwards for the rich. The United States bends over backwards for big buisness. The United States is a nation that protects copyrights and patents allowing people exclusive rights to make money off things. The United States is a nation that creates rich people in the first place. It's not too much to ask to have them give a little bit back If the they don't like it, then they can try getting rich in another country, and of course pay much higher taxes in another country.
And the British don't wait 12 months to see a doctor or any other amount of time. That's a myth.

Liberals believe the role of government is to PROVIDE - to provide old age pensions, prescription drug benefits, aid to the poor, free medical care, etc. ad nauseum. The problems with government as provider are manifold. First, government tends to encourage mediocrity, bureaucracy, and inefficiency, since government employees are harder to fire. Second, once government starts providing, the public expects it to provide more and more and more and more, and the level of provision can not EVER go down!
So what else do you want cut. Should the government stop building roads and bridges? You want some company to build then and then charge you an arm and a leg to drive on them? Should there be no more public schools? No more public parks or national parks? No more post office?
If you think society can function without these things, then you are living in a fantasy world.
The free market is fine for things that people can live without, or can provide for themselves, but things that society needs have to be socialized.
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Him
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« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2007, 04:27:01 PM »

However, that explains why so many people from other countries come here when they need specialize medical care, their country doesn't have it.



The overall performance of the United States health care system was ranked 37th by the World Health Organization.
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DodgingGrunge
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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2007, 05:09:32 PM »

What's more important to you? Your Health or your money? What about your families health?
You talk about paying more taxes, but you are already paying health care premiums to an insurance company. Then you have co-pays and prescription drugs.
Its not about saying damn the rich.

You have to be careful when using the word your, as in your family or your health.  This implies that I, CheeseFlix, whomever, is somehow struggling or crippled by the current state of things.  Quite frankly, that is a supposition you cannot accurately make.  You keep mentioning insurance premiums, so let's examine that.  How are they scaled?  You'll find that "at risk" clients are charged larger percentages than others.  For example, smokers will pay more, as will lion tamers.  The reasoning behind this is quite simple.  A minority of the population will utilize the majority of health services.  Enacting a national health service will benefit that minority at the expense of the majority.  While we can argue all day about the ethical obligations to our common man, the fact remains that most Americans have at their disposal adequate care under the current system.  Any change would adversely affect the majority of the population.  And since we the people elect those officials you were talking about, it is unlikely any of them will vote against the interest of the majority of their constituents for fear of being voted out.  TeddyR

The free market is fine for things that people can live without, or can provide for themselves, but things that society needs have to be socialized.

The only feasible way to remove capitalism in America is through a violent overthrow of the government.  Luckily you have at your disposal a second amendment right to bear arms.

I'm sorry for giving you a hard time, but I think it is important to recognize that all ideals have consequences.  It is important to take into consideration the feelings and attitudes of your peers.  Governmentally-run health care is not a bad idea in and of itself.  But if put in practice in America, it would do a lot of damage and hurt a lot of people.

Personally, my beliefs are slanted about as far to the left as possible.  Drugs and pornography for all! is my motto.  However as a nihilist I don't give my beliefs any particular weight.  Lookingup  Socialism is a wonderful ideal, a compromise between the individual and the community, but that doesn't mean it works for every society.  America just ain't that way.
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2007, 05:19:31 PM »

However, that explains why so many people from other countries come here when they need specialize medical care, their country doesn't have it.



The overall performance of the United States health care system was ranked 37th by the World Health Organization.


You do realize those reports focus primarily on the public health care services (i.e. government funded) and not private health care? If your going to give talking points, give the whole story. Not once have I said we've got the greatest most superdy-dupper health care system in the world, I said when people need special medical treatment they often come to the US, they come to private health care, not the clinic on the corner.
You want to control cost, take ownership the your medical bills and stop handling hospitals blank checks. If you don't care how much the hospital charges the insurance company, then why would the insurance company care how much they charge you?
Put it like this I build houses, and I have crew, I'm getting prices together today to build another house; shopping around and haggling over pennies. I'm self insured barring catastrophic coverage. Last week I had a guy cut his arm, not bad but he needed stitches. I got the bill it was $1265.00 for 10 stitches and it wasn't a deep cut. I could have sewed him up myself, or got a vet (DVM) friend of mine to do it. So I look over the bill and I see outrageous charges. I had 16 'mucus removal devices' at $4.00 each ... want to know what 'mucus removal devices' were? Freakin Q-Tips. So I call question every charge on the bill even offered to pay it in $4.00 a piece Q-tips, wasting my time with it. Long story short I get the bill down to $306.00, still to much in my opinion, but better than $1265.
So see Universal Health Care would benefit me if I was to damn lazy to pick up a phone and question charges. But I'm not! See the more I pay in taxes, the less I have for materials and help. So I either raise my prices, cutting the amount of work I'll get or lay people off, resulting in working slower not getting as many job complete every year and still making less money all while paying higher taxes. This is known as recession accompanied by inflation.

I can't make it any simpler for you, you are not seeing the forest for the trees.
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Him
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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2007, 05:27:52 PM »

I'm self insured barring catastrophic coverage. Last week I had a guy cut his arm, not bad but he needed stitches. I got the bill it was $1265.00 for 10 stitches and it wasn't a deep cut. I could have sewed him up myself, or got a vet (DVM) friend of mine to do it. So I look over the bill and I see outrageous charges. I had 16 'mucus removal devices' at $4.00 each ... want to know what 'mucus removal devices' were? Freakin Q-Tips. So I call question every charge on the bill even offered to pay it in $4.00 a piece Q-tips, wasting my time with it. Long story short I get the bill down to $306.00, still to much in my opinion, but better than $1265.
So see Universal Health Care would benefit me if I was to damn lazy to pick up a phone and question charges. But I'm not! See the more I pay in taxes, the less I have for materials and help. So I either raise my prices, cutting the amount of work I'll get or lay people off, resulting in working slower not getting as many job complete every year and still making less money all while paying higher taxes. This is known as recession accompanied by inflation.

No because a health care tax would eliminate the need to pay for insurance. And you would have saved the $306.
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2007, 05:51:19 PM »

Quote
No because a health care tax would eliminate the need to pay for insurance. And you would have saved the $306.

How long with that last? Hmmm, 10 guys, myself and partner, equipment, trucks, gas, supplies, overhead, materials, etc ... I'd have to work the math as I'm not sure if it's 8 or 9 minutes.
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Susan
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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2007, 06:33:40 PM »

Drug copays are inexpensive compared to paying the full cost of a non-generic drug. C'mon, i'd rather fork over $20 than pay $250 for a prescription drug.

whether insurance was free and paid for by taxes or if it was cheap because sick AND healthy people opted in - people need to realize there's a choice. Nobody healthy gets in and you got a lot of claims the insurance companies have to cover.


Insurance companies are seeking for excuses to deny coverage,? No -  again with the above - you have to realize they have to take into consideration the risk assessment. If you ran a company and offered insurance and you have a group coming on with two people and one of them has had major hearth bypass surgeries and diabetes, is this a good business decision to just give them a cheap health plan? You adjust their rates or you deny. Coming on an individual plan and having health issues you are a risk, you have better odds at coming on with a group plan which is employer sponsored. You may have to serve a pre-existing wait period if you have a preX condition if you are on a non-HMO plan but this is what the insurance companies have to do to keep from buckling.

If you work for a company and insurance is offered - take it. If you feel it's too high get with the admin person who is in charge and see if they can offer other plans or HSA accounts.

My only concern is with the self-employed which falls within a certain pay range where family coverage would just not be affordable. There problem really lies when your employer doesn't offer healthcare and you are on your own, no employer contribution and you're paying the full cost. I know everyone has the idea that insurance companies are just out to make money and screw the little guy - i hate the system. But i know that the insurance companies do what they can to get by. You as the person responsible for your health have to make important decisions. Do you really want an HMO? Would HSA or catastrophic be in your best interest if you don't see a doctor? Should you pay for the employer sponsored plan even tho it seems like a lot? you bet - because if you get into tens of thousands of dollars of debt because of a health emergency you sure don't want to be footing the bill all by yourself. Should you read the fine print and ask questions on exactly what your insurance covers and does not cover? Yep.

Too many healthy people say "Well i hardly ever go to the doctor so i'm not going to get it". So like i said - more sick people take insurance and then the healthy people only get the insurance when they finally get sick. So they're either denied or they cause everyones premiums to go up. The more healthy people that get on board the better off we'll all be, and stop running all those stupid MRI's and cat scans and full workups just to have an ankle sprain looked at.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 06:37:39 PM by Susan » Logged
ghouck
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2007, 07:29:56 PM »

Quote
I wasn't aware that the doctors office and emergency rooms were popular hang outs.

This isn't hard to figure out, People take care of themselves for small issues, people learn how to provide basic medical care for themselves because they don't want to have to pay a doctor bill, which even with insurance, we still pay. If you take that bill away, people won't do that, and the society as a whole will pay for their laziness.

BTW, if you have to turn to being a smart-alek, it's a good sign you're going nowhere with your arguement. 
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Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

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"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
ghouck
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2007, 07:34:02 PM »

Quote
No because a health care tax would eliminate the need to pay for insurance. And you would have saved the $306.

But paid for it and more in taxes, especially since people WOULDN'T have a reason to waste their time agrueing the $1206 down to $306.
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Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

James James: The man so nice, they named him twice.

"Aw man, this thong is chafing my balls" -Lloyd Kaufman in Poultrygeist.

"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2007, 07:56:05 PM »

Quote
No because a health care tax would eliminate the need to pay for insurance. And you would have saved the $306.

But paid for it and more in taxes, especially since people WOULDN'T have a reason to waste their time agrueing the $1206 down to $306.

They charged $700 for a suture tray, I asked where's the tray I paid for it, where's it at I want it! They said 'sir we reuse those.'
Reuse them? I asked But it's my tray and I want it, that is unless you would like to rent it from me for say $100 day and you've had it 21 days so far, that's $2100 less the $1265 I owe you, so that's $835 you owe me as of today. Would you like to pay that with cash, check or credit card?
So on and on it when until the price got down to $306, took about a hour, $959 an hour ... I can do that. You can fight or fall, it's up to you. (collectively said)
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Him
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« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2007, 08:09:02 PM »


Insurance companies are seeking for excuses to deny coverage,? No -  again with the above - you have to realize they have to take into consideration the risk assessment. If you ran a company and offered insurance and you have a group coming on with two people and one of them has had major hearth bypass surgeries and diabetes, is this a good business decision to just give them a cheap health plan? You adjust their rates or you deny. Coming on an individual plan and having health issues you are a risk, you have better odds at coming on with a group plan which is employer sponsored. You may have to serve a pre-existing wait period if you have a preX condition if you are on a non-HMO plan but this is what the insurance companies have to do to keep from buckling.
Which is why it's foolish to have private companies cover health care cost. Everyone needs healthcare. It makes no sense to have a system where the people who need it most are denied it.

Should you pay for the employer sponsored plan even tho it seems like a lot? you bet - because if you get into tens of thousands of dollars of debt because of a health emergency you sure don't want to be footing the bill all by yourself. Should you read the fine print and ask questions on exactly what your insurance covers and does not cover? Yep. Too many healthy people say "Well i hardly ever go to the doctor so i'm not going to get it".
Nobody says that. Nobody opts out of an employer sponsored plan unless they have health coverage from some other source. The problem is the insurance companies look for excuses not to cover cost even though they are recieving the premiums. If the insurance companies can't afford to cover health care cost then they are worthless.

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Him
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« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2007, 08:11:37 PM »

This isn't hard to figure out, People take care of themselves for small issues, people learn how to provide basic medical care for themselves because they don't want to have to pay a doctor bill, which even with insurance, we still pay. If you take that bill away, people won't do that, and the society as a whole will pay for their laziness.

The last place anyone wants to be is the doctors office or the emergency room. Just because you introduce a National Health care system doesn't mean there is going to be a mad rush to every doctors office in the country. People are only going to go when they need to.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 08:17:33 PM by Him » Logged
CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2007, 08:29:18 PM »

Quote
The last place anyone wants to be is the doctors office or the emergency room. Just because you introduce a National Health care system doesn't mean there is going to be a mad rush to every doctors office in the country. People are only going to go when they need to.

In this country of whiners, if they are not seeing green backs leave their grubby little paws they'll be at the Doctor office for every little boo-boo they get. Want proof take a trip down to your local health department, good friend of mine works there an tells tales of the endless parades of needless visits or as she calls them 'band-aid emergencies.'
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Susan
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« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2007, 09:38:22 PM »

Which is why it's foolish to have private companies cover health care cost. Everyone needs healthcare. It makes no sense to have a system where the people who need it most are denied it.

So life insurance and car insurance and home owners insurance and all forms of insurance should be free? We all need it. You have to look at the reasons why people are denied. It's a business, and you have to be able to keep your head above water..like it or not it is what it is. 

Quote
Nobody says that. Nobody opts out of an employer sponsored plan unless they have health coverage from some other source. The problem is the insurance companies look for excuses not to cover cost even though they are recieving the premiums. If the insurance companies can't afford to cover health care cost then they are worthless.

Each policy varies in what's covered, groups are provided SOB's and it's up to you to read your policy and see what it covers and what it doesn't - you have to make an informed decision on the plans you select. The types of benefits you elect to be covered and plans impact your rates, as well as your group size and type of individuals enrolling and their health. I'm actually speaking from a very knowledgable position on this. I think that everyone needs to take responsibility, sure you're going to have your michael moore stories. But that isn't the majority, it is also a shame that it occurs. You also need to consider who you are insured with, there are some pretty shady companies out there.  There are reasons why insurance is high, there are reasons why people are denied.

I do think there needs to be a system in place, however, for the self employed or 'individual policy holders' - i think there should be an option to form a pool of some kind in order to lower the premiums and enable people who might otherwise be denied the ability to get insured. The good thing is plans like HCA's are making insurance more practical and affordable for those who want a safety net, but it's not a perfect system and instead of b*tching about it people need to really find out what they think would work best and push for it. Take it to your congressmen, call the insurance companies up or hospitals, hell call the president or surgeon general.
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Him
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« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2007, 12:35:11 AM »



So life insurance and car insurance and home owners insurance and all forms of insurance should be free?
No, just health care.
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