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Him
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« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2007, 06:24:27 PM »

You guys are going to come up with every lame excuse in the book not to have universal healthcare.  I've only been to the doctor twice in the past 10 years, and my employer pays for my health insurance.

Perhaps we should have a private police force too. You have to pay a premium everymonth so that if you need a police officer one will come. Oh but before the police officer will do anything you have to pay a co-pay. Then you have to pay for the gas the police officer used to drive to where ever you were. If the officer fires his gun you have to pay for his bullets. If you live in a high crime area, you have denied police insurance because it just wouldn't be profitable.

Or perhaps a private fire department. You have to pay a premium every month so that if your house is on fire, the fire department will come. Oh but before the firemen lift one hose, you have to pay a co-pay. Then you have to pay for the fuel the fire truck uses, you have to pay for the water the firemen use to put out the fire. If your house contains flamible materials, then you can't get fireman insurance, because it just wouldn't be profitable.
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2007, 06:39:45 PM »

Or perhaps a private fire department. You have to pay a premium every month so that if your house is on fire, the fire department will come. Oh but before the firemen lift one hose, you have to pay a co-pay. Then you have to pay for the fuel the fire truck uses, you have to pay for the water the firemen use to put out the fire. If your house contains flamible materials, then you can't get fireman insurance, because it just wouldn't be profitable.

Guess what ... if you live in the county and have a volunteer Fire Department you do a pay a service premium and if you don't, they'll still come and stick you with a $1000-$10,000 and up service fee for a call.

But alas you're try to derail the topic with outlandish proposals.

You can not project what you would do and what you have done on the entire population, I haven't been to the Doctor but once in the last 20 years and that was an employment physical. But my eyes are open enough to see what many people actually do go at the least little sniffle, I seen a lot of people that will go to the Doctor at a drop of a hat for next to nothing. You really should go spend a day at the health department, because that is pretty much what you'll get with UHC.   
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Him
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« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2007, 07:09:17 PM »

^I'm not spending a day at the health department! I don't need to spend a day at the health department. If you can't make your point on the board then you must not have much of one.

You talk about knowing people who go to the doctor for just  a sniffle, well I know someone who had a fever of over a 100 accompanied by a loss of appetite, who lived with it for 3 weeks before finally seeing doctor (who consequently discovered he had an infection in his liver). And he had free healthcare. The bottom line is, most people do not want to go to the doctor, free or not free.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2007, 08:46:15 PM by Susan » Logged
CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2007, 07:38:57 PM »

^I'm not spending a day at the health department! I don't need to spend a day at the health department. If you can't make your point on the board then you must not have much of one.

You talk about knowing people who go to the doctor for just  a sniffle, well I know someone who had a fever of over a 100 accompanied by a loss of appetite, who lived with it for 3 weeks before finally seeing doctor (who consequently discovered he had an infection in his liver). And he had free healthcare. The bottom line is, most people do not want to go to the doctor, free or not free.

Yes choose to remain in the dark, you might not like what you see.

And for every person that doesn't go for something serious there are others that do go for something minor. The REAL bottom line is it's not free, it will not ever be free, news flash nothing in life is FREE. And for those that think it's FREE they will abuse it.
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Susan
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« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2007, 08:48:49 PM »

^I'm not spending a day at the health department! I don't need to spend a day at the health department. If you can't make your point on the board then you must not have much of one.

You talk about knowing people who go to the doctor for just  a sniffle, well I know someone who had a fever of over a 100 accompanied by a loss of appetite, who lived with it for 3 weeks before finally seeing doctor (who consequently discovered he had an infection in his liver). And he had free healthcare. The bottom line is, most people do not want to go to the doctor, free or not free.


That's your friend, that's not the general public. We spend more money on health care than we do food, more than any other country. We go to the doctor a lot.

The people i know with cheap insurance go to the doctor on average more frequently than those who pay higher prices. Those who don't have insurance even less. And if you have children your frequency of doctor trips will increase, which is also a growing problem among daycares and these drug resistant strains of viruses that float around because of the increased use of antibiotics because of overparanoid parents.
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2007, 09:38:51 PM »

Not to be confused with S.I.C.K.: Serial Insane Clown KillerTongueOut

Granted, Michael Moore haters aren't likely to give this movie/documentery a viewing, but I think everyone should at least see it once. Unlike Moore's last entry, in which everyone accused him of having a left-wing political agenda, I don't feel that SiCKO can be attributed to any self-serving cause. How is Moore showing off the corruption and lobbying of the medical industry going to be construed as some type of leftist self-interest campaign? Sure, there are those who could say Moore went through the effort simply because he intends to make money off of exploiting the unfortunate, and for those who feel that way then I hope you didn't have much faith in me because I "fell for it".

Well, your thread has received one heck of a reception!  Karma for you!  I avoided this thread, though I've been lurking, because it is so politically charged.  I have not yet seen SICKO, but I'd like to!  I can't look at any programming regarding September 11, 2001, so I have not looked at FARENHEIT 911 or the myriad programs about that terrible day.  But I have seen Michael Moore's first film the awesome ROGER & ME and also BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE, which was a kind of sequel to that first Moore film.  They were both stunning. 
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 09:24:09 PM by Allhallowsday » Logged

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Jim H
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« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2007, 12:56:47 PM »

^I'm not spending a day at the health department! I don't need to spend a day at the health department. If you can't make your point on the board then you must not have much of one.

You talk about knowing people who go to the doctor for just  a sniffle, well I know someone who had a fever of over a 100 accompanied by a loss of appetite, who lived with it for 3 weeks before finally seeing doctor (who consequently discovered he had an infection in his liver). And he had free healthcare. The bottom line is, most people do not want to go to the doctor, free or not free.


I wasn't suggesting, personally, that people's habits would really change that much.  I just know a lot of people who already abuse the insurance they have.  With wider coverage everyone would pay for, I could see it getting worse.  I don't really think there'd be a huge rush that would cripple the entire system though.

Either way, I do think we need a new health care system.  Preferably one without a profit motive.
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« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2007, 02:22:32 PM »


Either way, I do think we need a new health care system.  Preferably one without a profit motive.


Just to throw this out there, what exactly is WRONG with making a profit?  Throughout history, doctors have received payment for their services, just like any other 'tradesman.'  Maybe the issue is WHO is making the profit?

I find it very interesting that the same bunch of politicians that rammed HMO's down our throats 20-30 years ago are now saying they don't work and they need to fix the system.  (Yes, I'm looking at YOU, Ted Kennedy).  I remember starting a new job and being faced with a choice between HMO and 'traditional' catastrophic medical coverage, I was wondering who on earth would want this HMO thing.  It just seemed like a bad idea to me at the time.

I contend that the problem is NOT as simple as profit motive.  I think it is FAR, FAR more complicated than that.  But there are people in power, on all sides of the issue, that have a personal stake in pushing the system they want.  It sounds feely-good to want everyone to have "free" health care (nothing is free, by the way), but that just shifts the burdens of providing that service to another segment of society.
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flackbait
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« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2007, 10:20:46 PM »

Quote
Just to throw this out there, what exactly is WRONG with making a profit?  Throughout history, doctors have received payment for their services, just like any other 'tradesman.'  Maybe the issue is WHO is making the profit?
Hell there's no problem with a doctor making a profit. It's just that a simple broken leg could run upward of $1000 when you figure in ambulance, using emergency room and other things. There's no way it should cost a man that much money. So they could make a profit just not that much.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 10:22:28 PM by flackbait » Logged
Zapranoth
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« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2007, 02:45:00 AM »

If Americans would quit looking for shortcuts and actually DO THE WORK of taking care of themselves, a lot of the cost of healthcare would just go away.

If people would eat less, move more, never, ever ever ever smoke, drink in moderation, and get enough sleep, much of what I do would be just gone.  Poof!  Many fewer diabetics, fewer persons with coronary artery disease, less hypertension, less hyperlipidemia, and fewer whiny-ass questions about how to lose weight. 

Fewer cases of COPD and of stroke.  Fewer cases of cancer.  Fewer colds, even, if  the smokers would really get their acts together and quit. 

Less acid reflux (fewer obese people).   Less insomnia (more exercise, better sleep).  Fewer morbidy obese people = fewer cases of back pain, and believe me, I could go the rest of my life and not see one more person for back pain, and that'd barely be the start of long enough.

So I would say this:  rather than following the time-honored American tradition of "if it doesn't work, throw more money at it," how about instead some personal accountability?  You'd be amazed at how far personal accountability and personal investment (the non-monetary kind) can carry people who even have incurable diseases... much less the tremendously preventable problems that, by and large, comprise the majority of what we're dealing with now.

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ghouck
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« Reply #85 on: July 31, 2007, 01:26:46 PM »

Karma on that Zapranoth. If what people are going through (putting themselves through) these days happened 1000 years ago or more, we would call it "natural selection".
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ghouck
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« Reply #86 on: July 31, 2007, 01:48:32 PM »

Quote
You guys are going to come up with every lame excuse in the book not to have universal healthcare.

I've not seen any "excuses" nor anything I would consider "Lame". One could reply with "You are going to be as insulting as you can in order to push your agenda". It works both ways. .

Quote
I've only been to the doctor twice in the past 10 years, and my employer pays for my health insurance.

Very convenient, and NOT the established norm, therefore irrelevant.

Somehow you imply that police, firemen, and the resources are altogether free, and that they would only cost people anything if privatized. Those comparisons are fairly irrelevant, but, the same as privatised health care, privatized Fire and Police service would motivate people to take whatever precautions they could to prevent the use of those services. The difference, which is the part you convienently ignored, is the Fire and Police service also service public areas, which would go untouched if they were privatized. That was a classic straw-man arguement you made.

Quote
If there are people who go to the doctors office for minor things it's because that's what they are told to do by people in the medical profession.

And you know this how? You (through your own admission), obviously haven't been in a doctor's office or emergency room much. Hang around one for an hour or so and see what people show up for. . . My doctor told me that over 80% of the time someone comes in saying they broke some bone, the x-rays showed no fracture. He spoke of how people don't come in for follow-up appointments a week later, because the supposed "broken-bone" injury was all but forgotten about within that week.
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Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

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Him
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« Reply #87 on: July 31, 2007, 02:32:39 PM »

All of you who think universal healthcare is unessessary have a hard lesson coming.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19113385/site/newsweek/

Quote
June 8, 2007 - Jim Kenefick, 36, is the founder of Moorewatch.com, one of the Web's most visited anti-Michael Moore sites. So imagine Kenefick's surprise when he received a friendly voice mail last month—from Moore himself, calling from the Cannes Film Festival premiere of his agitprop documentary “Sicko.”

The lefty filmmaker had two things to tell his cybercritic. First, he wanted Kenefick to know that he and his Web site appear prominently (albeit anonymously) in “Sicko,” his soon-to-be-released attack on the American health-care industry.

In the film, Moore shows several of Kenefick’s blog posts where he pleads for money to keep MooreWatch.com alive because his wife's medical bills (Kenefick says she has a neurological disorder) have almost bankrupted him. He is saved at the last minute when a mysterious donor sends a $12,000 check, enough to keep the site going and pay insurance premiums for a year—which brought Moore to his second point. Before the world found out from his film, the filmmaker wanted his nemesis to know: he was Kenefick’s guardian angel.


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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2007, 02:57:25 PM »

Are you digging this up again ...

Please from PMSNBC ... yeah no agenda there.

Micheal Moore loves the attention, he's a narcissistic weeble that won't fall down. He wants the anti Moore site (Moorewatch) there up and running, it's great PR; it's the old adage bad press is better no press. If this was an anonymous donation then how do we know about it? People make anonymous gifts all the time and it never LEAKS out, this is nothing more than a calculated move by Moore to get free PR for his film. Isn't it odd that this info came to light at the same time his little movie hit the theaters, no not that odd at all since it was likely planned that way.

All the free press easily justifies the $12K so called "anonymous donation." Man don't be so gullible.
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ghouck
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« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2007, 03:01:05 PM »

Him: Lol, ,, THAT really convinced me. . . Question

Kudos on dodging all the real points though.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 03:03:06 PM by ghouck » Logged

Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

James James: The man so nice, they named him twice.

"Aw man, this thong is chafing my balls" -Lloyd Kaufman in Poultrygeist.

"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
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