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October 20, 2014, 04:47:52 PM
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Author Topic: The Iowa Caucuses (I'll be attending and posting video)  (Read 8233 times)
indianasmith
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A good bad movie is like popcorn for the soul!


« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2008, 02:39:14 PM »

Must . . . not . . . . engage . . . .  Lester!


AAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 hot hot hot hot hot hot
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2008, 03:09:21 PM »

indiana smith and all hallows day both attacked me first, indiana in this thrad and flackbait in the thread about the Other. I defy anyone to prove otherwise.  and continue to attack me
Question  Y'know there's a species of troll that types whatever comes to mind, even if its mind is wandering and it makes no sense, because all such nuggets must be pure gold.     Smile

To anyone else reading, I am of the opinion that disagreements make for interesting exchanges, but we should always avoid personal "attacks".  Anyone interested in THE OTHER thread:
http://www.badmovies.org/forum/index.php/topic,115927.0.html

Must . . . not . . . . engage . . . .  Lester!
Yes, Indiana, good advice.   BounceGiggle
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indianasmith
Archeologist, Theologian, Elder Scrolls Addict, and a
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Karma: 1405
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A good bad movie is like popcorn for the soul!


« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2008, 04:54:39 PM »

Yes, it is good advice, All Hallows, but dangit!!! I just can't help myself!  Hatred

OK, Lester, I am, respectfully and politely, going to tell you where I think your previous observations were historically and ideologically incorrect.  In so doing, I will try to avoid all personal references to your intelligence and character.  Fair enough?  Cheers

First of all, about Harding - going to war, or using the powers of government to deal with sweeping national emergencies, does not make one a tyrant.  Spying on one's foreign enemies - even on domestic enemies, if they are prone to violence - is simply common sense.  "Know thy enemy" is the first rule of smart warfare.  The fact is that Harding was incompetent, and very limited in his ability.  He deserves his historical ranking at the bottom of the Presidential heap.

On secession - You say it was legal and justified.  WHY was it justified?  NO state's right was jeapordized by the election of Abraham Lincoln.  All he proposed to do was limit the spread of slavery into the Western Territories.  The fact is that the South stormed out of the Union because of a PERCEIVED threat to slavery, in the form of a Presidential election that did not go their way.  Their behavior was not unlike that of spoiled children.  And if secession was legal, why was there no Constitutional provision for it?  The South's actions were irrational and indefensible, and led to the destruction of the institution they fought to defend, as Texas Governor Sam Houston predicted in 1861 - "These fire-eaters are going to start a war to defend slavery, but the first shots they fire will be slavery's death knell!"

Also, you said - "In britain they simply bought all the slaves and freed them then outlawed slavery.  No one died for "humanity" there or anywhere else but here where 600,000 people, virtually none of whom had anything at all to do with slavery or the slave trade, died.    Slavery was on it's way out. "

Were ALL British slaveowners compensated for their slaves?  I would be surprised if that were truly the case.  Slavery was NOT on its way out in the South, however.  Look at the U. S. census every decade from 1790 until 1860.  Every decade the slave population increased, and the price of slaves increased.  The South was becoming more dependent on slavery with each passing year, not only economically but socially. Slavery and racism were the tools by which the Planter class divided and ruled the 70% of Southerners who did NOT own slaves.  The South would never have voluntarily relinquished slavery, except perhaps to replace it with an apartheid style system that left blacks deprived of all liberty and justice as permanent second class citizens . . . oh, wait, that's what they did as soon as the Northern troops went home.  Yes, there were some in the North who profited off of slave labor.  It was unavoidable in a national economy.  Does that mean NO ONE in the North had any moral ground on which to condemn slavery?  If that is the case, no one in the world is entitled to moral judgements about ANYTHING.  Yes, the Civil War killed many who had nothing to do with slavery or abolitionism.  Wars do that.  But the war was brought on by the South's unwillingness to compromise and their irrational need to hang onto slavery at all costs.  Lincoln led the country with brilliance, compassion, and humility through its greatest crisis.  Had he lived, perhaps he could have achieved a measure of racial justice - one thing guaranteed, he would not have mucked up Reconstruction as badly as Andrew Johnson did.

As far as World War II goes, yes, you are right, the failed diplomacy that led to the Treaty of Versailles was responsible for Hitler being able to seize power in Germany (you will notice that Woodrow Wilson is one President I DON'T defend!).  But, once Hitler seized power and became bent on conquering all of Europe and Asia, America had to rise up and stand against him, or he would have won.  The same can be said for Japan's muderous attempt to take over the entire Far East. Sometimes tyranny must be opposed, and force is the only language tyrants understand.  Neville Chamberlain proved that of Hitler.  The only thing America could do for the freedom of the world  was to utterly crush both the Nazis and the Japanese, and the world is a better place because we did so.  While no war is absolutely black and white, World War II comes closer to that than any other struggle in the history of the world.

Yes, there were several attempts to kill Hitler by a conspiracy of German officers during the War.  They all failed, and the conspirators died in horrible agony.  The German people did NOT rise up and support them.

RE My numbers on the Holocaust - I have seen the figures given between 12 and 14 million, totalled.  The 6 million Jews are very well-documented; at least 1 million German dissidents and protestors died in the camps, over 1 million Gypsies, about 1 million Poles, and at least 2 million Russians.  The remainder was made up of dissidents, Resistance leaders, labor union organizers, pastors,  intellectuals, homosexuals, and any one  else who might conceivably lead any form of military or intellectual resistance to Naziism.  Because many of the records were destroyed, and several million of those deaths occurred during the first eight years of Hitler's rule, before the "Death Camps" were fully established, the precise number is hard to pin down.  But it was enormous.


OK, there, I gave you my opinions and my reasonings, and I did not once insult you.  I don't know that it did any good, but I feel better!  Lookingup


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"Carpe diem!" - Seize the day!  "Carpe per diem!" - Seize the daily living allowance! "Carpe carp!" - Seize the fish!
"Carpe Ngo Diem!" - Seize the South Vietnamese Dictator!
raj
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« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2008, 05:25:17 PM »

Sooooo, Ash, have you called up that assistant yet?
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Allhallowsday
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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped!


« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2008, 05:28:30 PM »

OK, Lester, I am, respectfully and politely, going to tell you where I think your previous observations were historically and ideologically incorrect. 
...OK, there, I gave you my opinions and my reasonings, and I did not once insult you.  I don't know that it did any good, but I feel better!  Lookingup
Surprised you don't mention the "...shooting at russians in the snows of siberia" bit...  Lookingup
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2008, 09:09:07 AM »

allhallows day -  from the thread you linked   
Quote
lester1/2jr, it sounds to me like you did not get THE OTHER


that was the start of the kerfuffle.  which ended with you, not I, getting huffy and stalking off in a ....huff
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2008, 09:24:22 AM »

indian  -  I can see you know your version of the civl war era quite well.  I don't think you are a bad operson for believing it.  why is it that when I have a different view i am ignorant and ridiculous?  I'm not ALLOWED to have a different view?  i 'm not making things up.  I tend to "follow the money" and come to different conclusions than some who believe in national greatness and the grand scope of history and so forth.  I'm cynical.

I don't believe the civl war was about slavery.  you and probably most people do.  I am not a hundred percent sure of how britain went abuot eliminating slavery so I'll have to get back to you on that.  but I'm pretty sure they didn't murder completely innocent citizens who the day before were doing nothing that had anything to do with slavery and would probably have preferred to stay part of their families and communities rather than making the job of cartographers easier by remaing one nation coerced by a new central government. 

there is much historical evidence that shows that lincolns prime motivation was to preserve the union.  to me, that is not a good enough reason to die.  My guess is the fact that the south had control of the cotton supply and wall street needed cotton had a lot to do with it.  as was the souths option of simply selling the stuff to the world without going through said NYC famous marketplace.

I am not against us being in ww2, though I think if we had not intervened at operation Barbossa the russians and the nazis may well have fought it out to the end. a debilitated USSR could obviously have been good for us and the world. 

Also,  we had a responsisblity to take in jewish refugees and did not.  if we had, i'm sure other countries would have followed.  the idea that we turned people away and sent them back to the camps is sickening.  again, politics got in the way of common sense.


also, hitler didn't seize power he was elected, which helps your point not mine!





edit:  if anyone is intersted in revisionist views of mr Abraham Lincoln here is a collection of them  just don't tell your history teacher
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 09:26:15 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

ulthar
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I AM serious, and stop calling me Shirley


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« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2008, 10:03:14 AM »


indian  -  I can see you know your version of the civl war era quite well.  I don't think you are a bad operson for believing it.  why is it that when I have a different view i am ignorant and ridiculous?  I'm not ALLOWED to have a different view?


I don't mean this as a criticism, but the problem with this statement is that there is a way things happened. Historians are objective scholars who seek to uncover the "what."  This is not belief; when a given hypothesis is asserted, it must be backed up with FACTS, not beliefs or ideologies.

The other side of the coin is that the victor in any armed conflict does, to some point anyway, get to write at least the immediate history of what happened.  However, history in the modern era is much more backed by scientific study than merely "what he said."

For my part, I think that for ANY armed conflct (such as the Civil War), the causes are complex and multi-layered.  I don't think it is as simple as saying "it was about slavery" or "it was about State's rights."  The reality is, if we are truly objective, it was both.

I'll depart from Indiana on this one point: who cares if there is a Constitutional provision for secession?  The Constitution was to delineate the powers of the Federal government, not to grant powers to the States.

Tenth Amendment:

Quote
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Now, it seems to me that it can be argued that that encompasses secession.  The 10th is arguably THE most important of the Bill of Rights within the grander scope of designing the government I believe the Founders envisioned.  True, I'll admit that the 10th has largely been gutted, and this gutting had already started by 1860.  But, there is no doubt (in my mind) that the Union's winning the Civil War was the death nell for the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution.

Do I wish the South had won?  In some ways, yes; those have to do with preserving the union within the scope of the 10th Amendment.  However, I KNOW the Southern plantation economy depended on slavery, which I cannot morally defend.  I recently visited Middleton Plantation in Charleston, SC, and it was eye opening (even for one who thought he already understood much of the southern culture prior to the Civil War).  There were FAR more black slaves population wise than white aristocrats, at least in the areas of the SC rice plantations.  To cast this into a modern context, does this not smell a bit of apartheid?

On a note MAYBE of interest, I'm writing a book on field trips along the SC coast for homeschoolers.  One of the points I am including is the site of the Stono Rebellion, one of the largest slave revolts of the colonial period (the largest prior to the big one in NY).  An interesting piece of history there.  This site is about midway between Charleston and Beaufort.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2008, 10:24:20 AM »

on a lighter note

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/1/6/25723/26527/751/431492


^not a site I normally visit but great analysis of the last GOP debate by a 9 year old kid
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Allhallowsday
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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped!


« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2008, 12:46:39 PM »

allhallows day -  from the thread you linked   
Quote
lester1/2jr, it sounds to me like you did not get THE OTHER
that was the start of the kerfuffle.  which ended with you, not I, getting huffy and stalking off in a ....huff
My comments were not personal.  However, Les, your response was personal:

allhallowsday -    I thnk your grasp of film is as off as your grasp of history.    that you nitpick stuff about john ritters real name and the correct run of "leave it to Beaver" shows you have completely missd the point, probably a common conundrum for your good self.
As you wrote to Indiana: "why is it that when I have a different view i am ignorant and ridiculous?" 

You are also disingenuous...
you seriously were offended that I referred to him as jack Tripper?
SMOKE! 
Ugh, I'm actually responding to you, a troll's dream come true.  How distasteful.   TongueOut  However, as I wrote in THE OTHER thread which you ignored: PEACE

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Mortal Envelope
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Manos...it's frightening!


« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2008, 03:52:58 PM »

Dang...I thought I was about to read a thread on Iowa Caucuses lol.
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Scott
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Hey, I'm in the situation room ! ! !


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« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2008, 10:29:27 PM »

Dang, that precinct captain's assistant looks sweet.

Funny thing about her...
Her name is Katherine and she had this really sexy Hispanic accent.
When I told her I was going to post the videos on Youtube, she asked if I'd e-mail her the link to the videos.
I said sure and gave her a notecard to write it down on.
Not only did she write it down, she left her phone number on it too!   Twirling

So maybe I'll give her a call.   Wink



You should Ash. It will make walking down the street a little warmer.  BounceGiggle

Enjoyed your video by the way and seeing Ashthecat live and in person again on Youtube. All the way from Iowa.  Thumbup
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