The Caine mutiny (1954)

[Neville]

Today I've watched "The Caine Mutiny" again. Great movie, even if Max Steiner's score was starting to unnerve me towards the ending. Nothing wrong with military music, but it sounds way too triunphant for a film that has most characters eating their nails for most of the running time.

Anyway, you've probably seen the poll by now. That's because the party scene at the ending always gets me. It's a clever role reversal scene, in which the officers that have deposed Captain Queeq (Bogart) after his erratic behaviour are berrated by their own defendant at the court martial, main reasons being their overall wimpiness and failing to remain loyal to Queeq.

As I've said, I've  seen the movie a few times already, and I've ended up deciding there's an equal ammount of arguments for or against Queeq's being a villain. It's one of those things that make the movie great, you can't tell if Edward Dmytryk (director) is criticising the military, dissing those posh officers that complain over everything or just stating that any justice system is prone to manipulation by those who have enough power. Dmytryk was a victim of the infamous Witch Hunt, let's not forget that.

The film in the end chooses to defend Queeq, but let me remind you that his mistakes and erratic behaviour before being relieved (such as running over a target practice, or losing control under a typhoon) are very real, and so are the lies he utters under oath at the trial. And being war time the defendants are risking their necks.

So, what do you think? Is Queeq the villain of the piece?

[The Burgomaster]

If you want a real treat, read the book (unless you already have).  It is one of the great books of this century.  Riveting.

[Neville]

No, I haven't. I can't tell if it is even printed in my language. If it does, it's probably out of print anyway.

[soylentgreen]

Like SEVEN DAYS IN MAY, this film soars thanks to it's faith in trusting the audience with making up it's own mind about a very difficult moral quandry.  One is able to argue effectively for both sides, though(and here's were my personal opinion comes in)Queeqs actions, and the need to resolve them, trump all else.  This was revisited in a slighty watered down(no pun intended?) way with CRIMSON TIDE.  And all of them harken back to the Bounty. 

I like when a film(and/or filmmaker) trusts me enough as an educated filmgoer to make my own decisions, even in areas of grave moral importance.  Interestingly, and in no way meant to be seen as fence-sitting, I think my feelings on Capt Queeq ebb and flow.  I have to ask myself how I would act in that instance...And as with the excellent film THE INCIDENT(about the thugs on the subway car), often I don't like the answer at all.

The role reversal you mention Neville, concerning the question of loyalty to Queeq strikes a particularly powerful chord now, as people in this country are labeled "leftists", "liberal woo-woos" or "traitor" for daring to question the sanity of decisions made by the folks in charge of the nation or the efficacy of the current war.  CAINE MUTINY pulled the idea of "during wartime, you're either with us or against us" into question.  And, for me, rightly so.


ps...Over the last half a decade, I've become convinced that a remake of SEVEN DAYS IN MAY would be perfect.  One in which a group of level-headed(yet no less patriotic)chiefs planned a coup against a warmongering administration bent on "projecting" freedom through reckless wars.  Could the public wrap their brains around the moral and ethical question's that would raise?

[The Burgomaster]

ps...Over the last half a decade, I've become convinced that a remake of SEVEN DAYS IN MAY would be perfect.  One in which a group of level-headed(yet no less patriotic)chiefs planned a coup against a warmongering administration bent on "projecting" freedom through reckless wars.  Could the public wrap their brains around the moral and ethical question's that would raise?

Unfortunately, most of today's public could wrap their brains around it only if there were lots of car chases and explosions.

[trekgeezer]

Another movie with a not so "black and white" outcome.  Jose Ferrar's character is outraged that he had to publicly humiliate Queeg in order to get his defendant off, but he sees it as his job although he thinks it stinks.

Queeg did appeal to his officers to help him, but they ignored him. Whether or not it would've made a difference will never be known. 

In the end I think none of them are villains. Queeg is a man suffering battle fatigue and trying hard not to admit it, his judgement is definitely flawed and he alienated everyone on the ship . As far as the other officers, in the end they did save the ship through their actions, but this course may have been unnecessary had they took Queeg up on his plea for help.  In the end it is hard to tell if anyone was really wrong.  You have your choice of the mentally unstable Queeg or his gang of "wimpy" officers.


The only clear villain in the piece would have to be the self-serving Lt. Keefer portrayed by Fred MacMurray.
 

[ulthar]

Another movie with a not so "black and white" outcome.  Jose Ferrar's character is outraged that he had to publicly humiliate Queeg in order to get his defendant off, but he sees it as his job although he thinks it stinks.

Which brings the question of Ferrar's character's morality as well.  Is is right to destroy a man, an obviously sick man who is vulnerable - and a man with a strong service record previously - in order to save his client whom he doubted and perhaps disliked a little bit?

Ferrar's character touched on this when he was explaining to Van Johnson's character about why he was taking the case.

"I'm going to be frank with you two. I've read the preliminary investigation very carefully and I think that what you've done stinks."

and

"I'd rather prosecute."

This is one of my all time most favorite movies.  The only thing I did not like about it was the romantic subplot which seemed totally out of place.  It did help with the backdrop for Willie's character (wants to please Mommy and girlfriend at the same time, just like he ultimately had to choose between Queeq and Van Johnson's character), but that could perhaps have been done with a little less diverting screen time.

Queeg did appeal to his officers to help him, but they ignored him. Whether or not it would've made a difference will never be known.

Very good point.  I don't think of Queeq so much as a villain in the typical sense.  I don't see this movie as "Man against Man" at all; to me, it is "Man against Himself" times about 4 or 5.  It is the exact same internal struggle each faces - "what do I do NOW?" 

The only clear villain in the piece would have to be the self-serving Lt. Keefer portrayed by Fred MacMurray.
 

Right.  The final scene, the final lines, with Ferrar are just incredible.  That scene comes out of no where, and it COMPLETELY unnerves the whole movie.  Until then, it's pretty much just about like any other courtroom drama; before Greenwald's speech, we can much more easily choose a side and drink a toast to Maryk and the boys on their victory.  Hat's off to MacMurray for the dejected look as the others leave the room.  I sometimes wonder if they are going outside to see if the fight will really happen; or are they simply rejecting HIS moral position?

"If you wanna do anything about it, I'll be outside. I'm a lot drunker than you are - so it'll be a fair fight."

[peter johnson]

Any time a System is implemented, it is inevitable that those within -- The Pawns of The System -- will face a situation that The System does not cover.

I like the appeals to authority, when they're consulting the Naval Manuals looking for a legalistic reason for their mutiny, rather than just agreeing:  "Whoo!  Queeg's nuts!!  Let's lock him in his room & sail this sucker back home!!".

I tend to feel very sorry for everyone involved in the film -- I look upon it as an example of a time when Mental Illness was swept beneath the rug even moreso than today.  Even MacMurray's character was trying to deal with it as best he could, as The System didn't give him an out, he had to rely on his own weasely nature to find a solution, and thus lay bare his character flaws.

Yeah, it stands the test of time --
peter johnson/denny strawberries & sand:  My favorite!!