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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  "We must never appease terrorists!!" « previous next »
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Author Topic: "We must never appease terrorists!!"  (Read 11153 times)
Allhallowsday
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« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2008, 10:49:20 PM »

...Bush is not a perfect man, but he is the first president who has actually had the guts to attack Islamic terrorism in its native breeding ground.  He has his foot on the snake, and it may be thrashing about and striking, but at least we are in a position now to deal it a mortal blow.  Beats the heck out of lobbing missiles into an empty training camp and an aspirin factory.  Would Gore or Kerry have had the guts for this kind of fight, with all the wimps and lefties that seem to thrive in the Democratic party?  I doubt it.
Y'almost had me there, Indiana, but this part of your commentary is troubling.  "Islamic terrorism" was most certainly not breeding in Iraq before the war.  I think a damned fine case could be made that if the primary concern of the BUSH administration had been Terrorism (and not OIL) then Saddam Hussein should have been recognized for what he was, a bulwark against its expansion.  But instead we have no WMD, and a terrible bloody war of attrition, too Vietnam-like to ignore history's lesson, and an unfocused first war, unfinished, in Afghanistan (the one move of BUSH's I did support). 

Attitudes definitely come and go, FDR in his day was opposed on all fronts domestic with his keen interest (and insight) that America would inevitably enter the World War and should fight the War overseas before it came to our door, that greatest of Presidents, the DEMOCRAT, as in his day by the REPUBLICANS, today would have been labeled a "sabre rattler," "war monger" or "hawkish." 
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Inyarear
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« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2008, 12:13:34 AM »

Y'almost had me there, Indiana, but this part of your commentary is troubling.  "Islamic terrorism" was most certainly not breeding in Iraq before the war.  I think a damned fine case could be made that if the primary concern of the BUSH administration had been Terrorism (and not OIL) then Saddam Hussein should have been recognized for what he was, a bulwark against its expansion.  But instead we have no WMD, and a terrible bloody war of attrition, too Vietnam-like to ignore history's lesson, and an unfocused first war, unfinished, in Afghanistan (the one move of BUSH's I did support).


This whole claim that Hussein was any kind of "bulwark" against terrorism's expansion is a major howler. Bush recognized Hussein for exactly what documents captured in Iraq confirmed he was: Al Qaeda's bosom buddy, via (these documents revealed) his connections to Al Zawahiri, a.k.a. Osama bin Laden's second-in-command. I find it rather disturbing that so many of you guys haven't picked up on this point by now; this isn't the first time this lie has been refuted. Moreover, it bothers me that you buy all the media's lies about the search for WMDs, which were ONE (1) of the twenty or so reasons our military went into Iraq.

None of you has any excuse for listening to these liars who hate Bush more than they love the truth. You want the truth, try listening to some actual soldiers and reporters at the front, and not those fools from the lamestream media sitting in their swanky hotels in the Green Zone and getting their reports from shady sources that almost invariably trace back to our enemies.

Bonus point: if Bush is really warring for oil, WHY HASN'T HE FOCUSED ON EXPLOITING IRAQ'S OIL NOW THAT HE'S GOT US IN THERE!? Honestly, update your talking points once in a while, AllHallowsDay. Same goes for the rest of you.

Further bonus point: This whole trip to Saudi Arabia was Pelosi's idea. She didn't mention any backup plans on what to do if they responded as they did. So where are your slams against her, you Bush-bashing hypocrites?
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2008, 01:20:12 AM »

Quote
But instead we have no WMD, and a terrible bloody war of attrition.

WMD's can be ideologies, WMD's can be one man. Ask the Kurds about WMD's and the desert is a big place that covers its tracks well. Any life lost is to many, but the Iraq war has lasted longer than the US involvement in WWII we've lost around 4000 lives in Iraq, yes that is a lot. However in WWII we lost 418,500 lives so lets put it in perspective, but really out of the nearly 70-100 million known deaths in WWII even that number is small.
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2008, 01:32:18 AM »

This whole claim that Hussein was any kind of "bulwark" against terrorism's expansion is a major howler. Bush recognized Hussein for exactly what documents captured in Iraq confirmed he was: Al Qaeda's bosom buddy, via (these documents revealed) his connections to Al Zawahiri, a.k.a. Osama bin Laden's second-in-command. I find it rather disturbing that so many of you guys haven't picked up on this point by now; this isn't the first time this lie has been refuted. Moreover, it bothers me that you buy all the media's lies about the search for WMDs, which were ONE (1) of the twenty or so reasons our military went into Iraq.

None of you has any excuse for listening to these liars who hate Bush more than they love the truth. You want the truth, try listening to some actual soldiers and reporters at the front, and not those fools from the lamestream media sitting in their swanky hotels in the Green Zone and getting their reports from shady sources that almost invariably trace back to our enemies.

Bonus point: if Bush is really warring for oil, WHY HASN'T HE FOCUSED ON EXPLOITING IRAQ'S OIL NOW THAT HE'S GOT US IN THERE!? Honestly, update your talking points once in a while, AllHallowsDay. Same goes for the rest of you.

Further bonus point: This whole trip to Saudi Arabia was Pelosi's idea. She didn't mention any backup plans on what to do if they responded as they did. So where are your slams against her, you Bush-bashing hypocrites?


KARMA

I couple of more Pelosi tricks that are current ... the EMERGENCY WAR TIME SPENDING BILL (they vote today on it) has AMNESTY for 1.5 million illegals in it. THE FARM BILL is nearly $300 billion dollars and 60% of that is for FOOD STAMPS. I don't know any farmers on food stamps and I know a lot of them. I am sick to death of all this pork.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2008, 08:34:49 AM »

indiana smith-  in iran people are allowed to bash their leaders.  it's not always easy, but it happens pretty frequently.  a bunch of students stood up and barked at ahmednejad when he was at tehran university not long ago.  what happened to them?  he made fun of them in his blog.

in china or saudi arabia, our ostensible outlaws,  imagine what would have heppened to them.  you'd have to imagine because you'd never hear about it. 

andyc- 
Quote
But I will say that unless you're extremely wealthy or an old man without too many years left, keeping $10,000 in a savings account, collecting nothing but interest, is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

so you think banks are stupid?  all of the major funds are down this year.  If you gave 10 to a broker last year you would have 9.  i would advise everyone against stocks unless they are chinese, brazilian or oil.

the rate of inflation was 1% in march.  that's a 12 percent annual rate.  if you aren't making 12 percent at least you are losing money.
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AndyC
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« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2008, 10:26:32 AM »

No, I just think you're looking at finance through the eyes of a six-year-old. Have you ever had a mortgage? Do you have any significant investments? I'm thinking the answer to both is probably no. How old are you? 17? 18?

Since I was dumb enough to respond to you, against my better judgement, I'll explain. You won't make enough interest on a bank account to make up for inflation, even if interest rates rise a little. Somebody buying a house or using a line of credit for their business will pay a much greater price for your tiny benefit.

The really interesting thing however, is that you accuse someone else of short-term thinking on the one hand, and then suggest basing an investment strategy on the current state of the market.

If you are looking at the long term, what stocks and funds are doing now is irrelevant. Unless you sell your stock, any short-term losses are strictly on paper. If you are, in fact, saving over a long term, you are best to ignore fluctuations, because in the long run, you will see far more growth.

And aside from that, you have things completely bass-ackwards. When stocks plummet, that is the best time to get in. There are solid, reliable companies that are temporarily undervalued because of people who think like you buying them when they're high and then bailing out when the price corrects itself.

Do you think your bank is just keeping your money in a vault? They're paying you sweet diddly FA in interest while they loan it out at a higher rate to people who benefit much more from lowered interest rates than you benefit from high ones. They also (ready for the shock) invest your money and make still more profit on it while clawing back what little interest they give you with various service charges.

For the record, I didn't say a bank account was stupid. I said you would be stupid to put a large sum in one as an investment. Bank accounts, today, are a place to keep money safe but accessible. Keep enough in it for expenses and emergencies. Anything more should go where it will actually work for you.

Now, feel free to shout "no, it isn't" a few times, refute everything I just said by attacking the wording of one specific point, and take a run at a strawman if you need to. And don't forget to take a condescending tone with someone older and more experienced than yourself. I expect nothing less.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2008, 10:50:08 AM »

Quote
Do you have any significant investments?

I trade for a living.

Quote
You won't make enough interest on a bank account to make up for inflation,

yuo would if there was no inflation.  there's not supposed to be inflation.  it's not a natural occurence.  there's no such thing as the "business cycle " either but that's another story.  pre keynes these problems didn't exist.

Quote
and then suggest basing an investment strategy on the current state of the market.

??  as opposed to other times?  should i be investing in transporter beams or steam engines?

Quote
If you are looking at the long term, what stocks and funds are doing now is irrelevant.

the stock market in march was at the same level it had been 10 years earlier.   the wall street journal called it "the lost decade".  unless you day teraded and bought on dips and sold on rips you would have the exact same amount of money ten years later.

Quote
There are solid, reliable companies that are temporarily undervalued because of people who think like you buying them when they're high and then bailing out when the price corrects itself.

that's how the world works. 
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AndyC
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« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2008, 11:18:11 AM »

Congratulations. You managed to do all at once, and tell a tall tale, and contradict yourself too. I'm impressed.

So, interest would be a good thing if there was no inflation because inflation is unnatural and shouldn't exist, but on the other hand, people ignorantly buying high, selling low and messing up the market for themselves (while a few others get rich doing the opposite) is the way the world works? Nice contradictory and equally nonsensical points. Two checks for that. You're in fine form.

And you also managed to make it look like you disputed a lot of my arguments when you really took shots at bits and pieces taken out of context and ignored several significant points completely. Check.

Very nice strawman argument with the steam engines and transporters. You must have known I was talking about long-term trends. Anyway, check.

Quoting a single sensationalized bit of media coverage (and I do have expertise in the field of journalism) as gospel truth. Check.

And what must surely be a lie. How come, after all of these financial debates, you only now mention this professional expertise of yours? I can only say, if you trade for a living, you must live with your parents. Come to think of it, you never did dispute my suggestion that you're a teenager. You do have the right mix of ignorance and arrogance.

Honestly, if I waste any more time on this guy, would somebody please dock my karma.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 02:14:06 PM by AndyC » Logged

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Allhallowsday
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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped!


« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2008, 11:21:53 AM »

Bonus point: if Bush is really warring for oil, WHY HASN'T HE FOCUSED ON EXPLOITING IRAQ'S OIL NOW THAT HE'S GOT US IN THERE!?
That's a loaded question.  You tell me.  The answer either way is not going to reflect well on Bush. 

Further bonus point: This whole trip to Saudi Arabia was Pelosi's idea. She didn't mention any backup plans on what to do if they responded as they did. So where are your slams against her, you Bush-bashing hypocrites?
Are you referring to me as a "Bush-bashing hypocrite"? 
Much has been said about the left and right of current politics on this board, but this is clear evidence of a "Bushie" resorting to insults.  You're rude, Inyarear.  Additionally, I did not mention nor discuss Bush's trip to Saudi Arabia. 

Honestly, update your talking points once in a while, AllHallowsDay.
We're all sick of hearing about WMD, but I find it peculiar that the Iraq war is often touted by Bush supporters as a war against terrorism, but not characterized as such initially.  I am not updating my talking points until I am convinced otherwise.  It was COLIN POWELL who first prominently asserted WMD, not the "lamestream" media.  It's not an assertion that should be swept under the rug at this late date.  Saddam Hussein was a fiend, got what he deserved, but nonetheless, governments often do what is expedient, like tolerating dictators.  Saddam Hussein not only persecuted Kurds, but also Islamic fundamentalists.  Ties to Al-Quaeda have not been proven; it's compelling that they flourish and delight in kidnapping and murdering our soldiers only after Saddam was toppled. 

None of you has any excuse for listening to these liars who hate Bush more than they love the truth. You want the truth, try listening to some actual soldiers and reporters at the front, and not those fools from the lamestream media sitting in their swanky hotels in the Green Zone and getting their reports from shady sources that almost invariably trace back to our enemies.
Here ya go, this three page excerpt is from Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez' book, Wiser In Battle; Sanchez was head of coalition forces and fought in Iraq.   

"In the meantime, hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars were unnecessarily spent, and worse yet, too many of our most precious military resource, our American soldiers, were unnecessarily wounded, maimed, and killed as a result. In my mind, this action by the Bush administration amounts to gross incompetence and dereliction of duty..."   

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1736831-1,00.html 
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Andrew
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« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2008, 11:30:26 AM »

Gents,

Let's please get away from any insults.  Again, debate and talking over issues is great, but once we start hurling insults then we start concentrating more on attacking the other person, rather than the merit of any points brought up.
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Andrew Borntreger
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« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2008, 11:40:56 AM »

"Hey, Ripley.  What would you do with this thread?"

"I'd nuke the site from orbit.  Only way to be sure."

 TeddyR

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2008, 02:42:55 PM »

andy-  I can't figure out what you are trying to say.

literally what are yoiu for or against?

"
Quote
interest would be a good thing if there was no inflation because inflation is unnatural and shouldn't exist, but on the other hand, people ignorantly buying high, selling low and messing up the market for themselves (while a few others get rich doing the opposite) is the way the world works? Nice contradictory and equally nonsensical points. "

??  those two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  inflation isn't caused economic growth. it's caused by the federal reserve literally inflating the currency.  in purest terms that is what inflation is.

my point about the lost decade was that there was no actual growth.  if you had a law against day trading, there would have been a flat line instead of dips and rips.  but the outcome would be largely the same.





so are you FOR a weak dollar? 
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AndyC
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« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2008, 04:06:37 PM »

andy-  I can't figure out what you are trying to say.

literally what are yoiu for or against?

"
Quote
interest would be a good thing if there was no inflation because inflation is unnatural and shouldn't exist, but on the other hand, people ignorantly buying high, selling low and messing up the market for themselves (while a few others get rich doing the opposite) is the way the world works? Nice contradictory and equally nonsensical points. "

??  those two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other.  inflation isn't caused economic growth. it's caused by the federal reserve literally inflating the currency.  in purest terms that is what inflation is.

my point about the lost decade was that there was no actual growth.  if you had a law against day trading, there would have been a flat line instead of dips and rips.  but the outcome would be largely the same.

so are you FOR a weak dollar? 

OK, this is going to cost me karma points, and probably get me a scolding from Andrew, but I just can't help myself. I will express my position in the simplest possible terms for you, Lester. Terms even you should be able to interpret without any misunderstanding.

I think you're full of s**t, and I wish you would shut the hell up. Is that clear enough for you?
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Andrew
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« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2008, 04:17:15 PM »

OK, this thread is done.
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Andrew Borntreger
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