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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Canada abolishes free speech. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Canada abolishes free speech.  (Read 9680 times)
Captain Tars Tarkas
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« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2008, 10:21:49 AM »

For those of you who think only the left is limiting free expression these days:  http://www.handelonthelaw.com/news_details.aspx?News=5640


Even though what the pastor and what Max Hardcore both do is disgusting, it must be protected.  Without the freedom to say what you want, all other freedoms are just an illusion.
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ulthar
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« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2008, 10:23:22 AM »


That is a very real meeting of cultures, requiring no laws, no tribunals, no imposed restrictions.


Very Cool.  Here's hoping he stays in business, and is welcomed as part of the community, a LOOONG time.   Cheers

Quote

And we are never going to work out those differences if someone is stifling real dialogue.


Well, call me a cynic, but to me, that's the point.  I have come to believe that some folks don't want the problems solved.  The existence of the problems is the basis of their power - whether that's political power or social power is immaterial.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 10:30:43 AM by ulthar » Logged

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clockworkcanary
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2008, 10:29:17 AM »

"The interesting thing is that while these issues are often blamed on the various groups being "protected," the problem, in my experience, is more with over-sensitive bureaucrats and activists who belong to no such group."

Exactly!
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ulthar
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2008, 10:29:39 AM »


Even though what the pastor and what Max Hardcore both do is disgusting, it must be protected.  Without the freedom to say what you want, all other freedoms are just an illusion.


Part of that is acceptable:

Quoth the article:

"...jurors drew the line saying...the graphic and violent films of a Hollywood pornographer are unacceptable in their community."

(emphasis added)

The problem, as I see it, is we have come to believe, an accept, that what each community decides for itself has to be a one-size-fits-all for everyone in the whole country.

THAT's the problem, imo, and what sets self-rule apart from censorship.

I see nothing wrong with a system wherein this jury decides this for themselves, so long as they cannot impose that on anyone else.  But, since this was Federal Court, such a case will be used as precedent in other locations.

It's the federalization of EVERYTHING in our lives that causes all this conflict.
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frank
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2008, 10:44:34 AM »


.... a commie pinko socialist hippy-mouf demonized lib'rul....

.... a bunch of incestious, country-music lovin, education-hating, soft-on-fascist, racist, wife-beating, war on the poor, totally sexist greedy bastards....


Soooo, as a commie hippy demonized totally sexist greedy bastard, where do I fit in? I'm confused???

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clockworkcanary
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2008, 10:47:33 AM »

Nah hehehe that's funny though! Maybe yer wanna dem dare extreme moderate fence sitters!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 10:52:30 AM by clockworkcanary » Logged

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ulthar
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« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2008, 10:48:50 AM »


You didn't comment on your misrepresentation on the "leftwing" stance of the prayers-in-school topic.  I gather you admit it was a misrepresentation or are you going to continue to parrot that lie that "we're taking prayer outta school" instead of the real stance "we're trying to prevent forced prayer in school."?


I'll address this one a little bit, since it's on-point to the rest of the thread.  That is, I'm not arguing "for" or "against" prayer in school, just showing an example of how he who "SEEMS" to be doing your bidding today may be your enemy tomorrow, and vice versa.  "Freedom" is MUCH bigger than the particulars of these specific issues.

From the www.atheists.org FAQ:

Quote

    Q: But most people believe in god and prayer. Should religious kids be able to pray?

    A: Try taking our "YELLOW PAGES TEST" over in the PUBLIC SQUARE section of this website. There are abundant opportunities for religious individuals, including students, to exercise their freedom of religion, and pray to the deity or deities of their choice. But remember, the public schools exist as secular, educational institutions, not as places for religious proselytizing and indoctrination. [top]



    Q: But what about voluntary prayer? What's wrong with that?

    A: Just how "voluntary" is it? When school authorities, including teachers organize prayer or bible recitation as part of the activities of the school day, there is clearly an element of coercion involved for students who might not wish to pray -- for whatever reason. The public schools are for everyone. Having a prayer divides children into the group that prays, and the often smaller group consisting of those who do not. Experience has shown that kids who do not participate are often victims of ostracism, threats and other exclusionary practices. Is this right?


So...SOMEONE is trying completely do away with prayer in school - all prayer.  The argument seems to be that if teachers "allow" voluntary prayer, that is a form of coercion on those not volunteering.

Loud, vocal minority?  Probably.

Truly representative of all "liberals" on the issue of school prayer?  Not Likely.

But they ARE trying to limit Freedom to practice one's own religion, and since "no religion" IS their religion, they are attempting to impose their religion on everyone else.  On a side note, why is it acceptable for THAT group to push their beliefs on everyone, but no other religion can attempt to do so?

So, one COULD say that the Christian groups that are fighting to "keep prayer in schools" are fighting a good fight - to protect the right of ANYONE of ANY religion to voluntarily, privately worship in their own way - or not, as the case may be.
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AndyC
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« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2008, 10:53:46 AM »

Very Cool.  Here's hoping he stays in business, and is welcomed as part of the community, a LOOONG time.   Cheers

Well, he actually sold the place a couple of years ago. The hours were long, his wife just got through a prolonged illness, and he wanted to spend more time with his elderly mother in Cyprus. Kind of sad, but he had to keep up an insane pace to run that restaurant, and a long trip overseas was pretty much out of the question while he was doing it.
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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2008, 11:00:12 AM »

Quote
I can't tell you anything since I don't really understand the syntax of your sentece.  If you're saying what I think you are saying, you won't mind if I ask for some support for your assertion?

I don't have time to dig up every piece of case law or event at the moment. However there were some schools and allowed a Hanukkah, Ramadan, and Kwanzaa (a made up holiday by the way) celebrations, but disallowed a Christmas one. In another town they allowed and menorah on the courthouse lawn but not a nativity scene. On the left coast they'll allow Muslim students time to pray during school but not Christian based events. I read some time ago a school with a heavy Buddhist population having a Buddha in the school, but don't you dare have a cross in a heavily Christian school.

now for the record I'm not a very religious man, I just see the hypocrisy of it all and call it like I see it, have every religion represented, I don't care. Don't ban one at the fear of offending the others.

This country, like it or not was founded on religious freedom and also Christian principles. Several of the founders were Deitist and not Christian by definition at all.

I'd love to answer many parts of other post but work calls.

Quote
And perhaps you're unfamiliar with the history of drug abuse.  People have been abusing drugs since civilization began and at all levels of society.  It didn't just start in the 60s with the hippies lol.

Try not to take what I said out of context ... I know it's hard. I said and I quote "more so than before." Yes I know and opium den, absinthe, mushrooms, etc dating back many, many years, centuries. The passage was a little tongue in cheek. 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 11:06:42 AM by CheezeFlixz » Logged

clockworkcanary
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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2008, 11:10:56 AM »


You didn't comment on your misrepresentation on the "leftwing" stance of the prayers-in-school topic.  I gather you admit it was a misrepresentation or are you going to continue to parrot that lie that "we're taking prayer outta school" instead of the real stance "we're trying to prevent forced prayer in school."?


I'll address this one a little bit, since it's on-point to the rest of the thread.  That is, I'm not arguing "for" or "against" prayer in school, just showing an example of how he who "SEEMS" to be doing your bidding today may be your enemy tomorrow, and vice versa.  "Freedom" is MUCH bigger than the particulars of these specific issues.

From the www.atheists.org FAQ:

Quote

    Q: But most people believe in god and prayer. Should religious kids be able to pray?

    A: Try taking our "YELLOW PAGES TEST" over in the PUBLIC SQUARE section of this website. There are abundant opportunities for religious individuals, including students, to exercise their freedom of religion, and pray to the deity or deities of their choice. But remember, the public schools exist as secular, educational institutions, not as places for religious proselytizing and indoctrination. [top]



    Q: But what about voluntary prayer? What's wrong with that?

    A: Just how "voluntary" is it? When school authorities, including teachers organize prayer or bible recitation as part of the activities of the school day, there is clearly an element of coercion involved for students who might not wish to pray -- for whatever reason. The public schools are for everyone. Having a prayer divides children into the group that prays, and the often smaller group consisting of those who do not. Experience has shown that kids who do not participate are often victims of ostracism, threats and other exclusionary practices. Is this right?


So...SOMEONE is trying completely do away with prayer in school - all prayer.  The argument seems to be that if teachers "allow" voluntary prayer, that is a form of coercion on those not volunteering.

Loud, vocal minority?  Probably.

Truly representative of all "liberals" on the issue of school prayer?  Not Likely.

But they ARE trying to limit Freedom to practice one's own religion, and since "no religion" IS their religion, they are attempting to impose their religion on everyone else.  On a side note, why is it acceptable for THAT group to push their beliefs on everyone, but no other religion can attempt to do so?

So, one COULD say that the Christian groups that are fighting to "keep prayer in schools" are fighting a good fight - to protect the right of ANYONE of ANY religion to voluntarily, privately worship in their own way - or not, as the case may be.

First of all, being Atheist does not make you a Liberal at all.  Being Christian doesn't make you Conservative.   Why is Atheism considered as any political affiliation when it is no more than the lack of belief in gods.  Seems only Conservative Talking heads (who only act conservative -Rush, lookin right at ya buddy) try to fire people up by framing it in such a slant.

I personally don't think the Christian Coalition is fighting the good fight for anyone's prayers but their own since they believe a-priori that they believe in the one true god and everyone else is going to burn in hell fire.  Most folks on the 700 Club and power groups of the like make it a phantom menace issue.

Anyway, the question and answer you quoted doesn't necesarily represent all atheists since the "only" thing atheists have in common is the lack of belief in gods. 

But this part I found interesting:

"There are abundant opportunities for religious individuals, including students, to exercise their freedom of religion, and pray to the deity or deities of their choice. But remember, the public schools exist as secular, educational institutions, not as places for religious proselytizing and indoctrination."

First part answers "yes, religious kids can pray at school" but that proselytizing and indoctrination" is not welcome in a secular place, which is the whole part about "forcing" I was referring to earlier.

The second one about voluntary prayer:

"Just how "voluntary" is it? When school authorities, including teachers organize prayer or bible recitation as part of the activities of the school day, there is clearly an element of coercion involved for students who might not wish to pray -- for whatever reason."

This stance is referring to forced/led prayer and not really talking about self-voluntary.  Children can pray by themselves anytime they want.  We, or at least I, only have a problem with the coercive element. 

"The public schools are for everyone. Having a prayer divides children into the group that prays, and the often smaller group consisting of those who do not. Experience has shown that kids who do not participate are often victims of ostracism, threats and other exclusionary practices. Is this right?"

This is true - think about if it was a different religion than one you practice and your child was left out?  Kids can pray anytime they want during school but the whole led prayer should be left at home or in church with the family where it belongs.

I don't really find these answers given as against a child's option to pray on their own.  Group led prayer is another matter.  Do you see how a child could feel left out or ostracized for not going along.  The thing is religion is such a private matter and should stay that way in a public school.

And I beg to differ on atheism as a religion.  Atheism is no more a religion than baldness is a hair color.
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clockworkcanary
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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2008, 11:20:12 AM »

"This country, like it or not was founded on religious freedom and also Christian principles. Several of the founders were Deitist and not Christian by definition at all."

Sorry Cheeze I beg to differ on those foundations.  True, there were a lot of Deists, but those principles you refer to don't belong exclusively to Christianity.  Again, you do not have the monopoly on morality.  This is stated a lot but it just doesn't reflect reality.  What principles was this country founded upon that are exclusive to Christianity and not any other religion? 

Whether you like to admit it or not, this country, land and resource-wise, was founded on conquest and genocide, which are certainly not Christian ideals.  Unless you meant, more specifically, this country's laws.  In that case, we're talking about the Constitution.

It's my understanding that the Constitution itself is based on the pushing and pulling of ideas from a great number of men who pulled ideas that worked from old Roman law while upgrading and updating some viewpoints while ditching anythign obsolete.  Sounds pretty reasonable to me.  Those things in the Constitution don't relfect Christian teachings, sorry.  Do they also reflect Jewish principles? 

Where in the Constitution does it say we must have a sabbath once a week? Where in the Constitution does it say we must worship god before any other (the first commandment, which I admit is just as much Jewish as it is Christian).  I could draw up a hundred maybe a thousand things on how the Constitution and the Bible differ.   Where in the Constitution does it say to never suffer a witch to live?
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indianasmith
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« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2008, 11:25:35 AM »


Clockwork:  "Yes that is frightening.  However, keep in mind, there are many on the right who would gladly agree with laws that executed homosexuals, but we both know the extremes on both sides are a minority and should not be equivocated to represent either side."

I think that is a ridiculous stereotype.  I regularly live, work, and interact with the "so-called" religious right - and there is not one in a hundred that holds that view.  What they resent is an entertainment and news media, and an educational system, that insists that sexual deviancy is a normal, morally neutral behavior.  Our philosophy is that consenting adults are free to do what they wish with each other - but we'd really rather not see sexual deviancy waved in front of our eyes as something good, normal, and fulfilling.

Most people who say things like what you just said have an opinion of us righties that is shaped more by pop culture than by actual acquaintance.
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« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2008, 11:32:32 AM »

Karma for your post, Tars Tarkas!!!

However, the government does have a constitutional right to ban obscenity . . . that's been borne out by case law repeatedly.  As I understand it, the crime is not in producing the speech or media, but in commercially distributing it.

From what I hear, that guy is a real scumbag.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2008, 11:43:18 AM »

Clockwork again: "Sorry Cheeze I beg to differ on those foundations.  True, there were a lot of Deists, but those principles you refer to don't belong exclusively to Christianity.  Again, you do not have the monopoly on morality.  This is stated a lot but it just doesn't reflect reality.  What principles was this country founded upon that are exclusive to Christianity and not any other religion? 

Whether you like to admit it or not, this country, land and resource-wise, was founded on conquest and genocide, which are certainly not Christian ideals.  Unless you meant, more specifically, this country's laws.  In that case, we're talking about the Constitution."

The fact is that there were two primary ideological shaping factors that drove our founders as they met in Philadelphia in 1787: Calvinist Christian theology and Enlightenment natural rights philosophy.  The two ideas were blended together in a document that recognizes, simultaneously, the ability and right of mankind to govern himself, as well as the sinful impulses which drive him to acts of depravity when there is not some powerful restraint upon him.  The single most quoted document in THE FEDERALIST PAPERS is not Locke, Montesquieu, or Rousseau . . . it is the King James Bible.  Even though a few of the Founders were not practicing Christians (Jefferson, Franklin, etc.) all of them were shaped by a profoundly Christian world view that guided them in shaping our government.  There is a little book called NEVER BEFORE IN HISTORY which outlines the Christian influences on our founding fathers.  It's not a bunch of right-wing propaganda and re-writing of history; about 60% of the text is primary source quotes from the founders of America.

I notice that the most extreme examples of bizarre "Christian" beliefs that you cite come from the Old Testament Levitical law, something which virtually all Christians believe was abolished by the Cross.  Those laws were only intended for the theocratically governened nation of Israel, some 3400 years ago.

As far as America's shameful legacies of genocide and racism, no one can deny that part of our heritage.  HOWEVER, it should be judged in the light of the 18th century, not the 21st century.


And to ALL posters, let me say . . .


THIS IS ONE GREAT THREAD!!!!!!!

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CheezeFlixz
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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2008, 11:43:45 AM »

Quote
Sorry Cheeze I beg to differ on those foundations.  True, there were a lot of Deists, but those principles you refer to don't belong exclusively to Christianity.  Again, you do not have the monopoly on morality.

Where did I say exclusively?

Somehow I remember there being a conjunction in what I said.
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