Should Marijuana Be Legalized?

[ghouck]

For sure there's some blame-shifting, but you would have to see the situation first-hand to understand. Baised view because I work with these people, no, that's not it, because I can see the same traits in others and their actions with and without the drug OUTSIDE the prison environment. No matter how you chalk it up, people always try and deflect the issue, , and the issue is, MJ makes peopel conduct themselves differently than they conduct themselves without it, the same as alcohol, heroin, meth, cocaine and about any other drug does. Some people do so in an acceptable way, others NOT.
I don't doubt you've never run into people like that, because you've probably not ran into many people that are FORCED to abstain, and you've surely not know the details of a person's life like can be gleaned from my point of view. You've likely never talked to someone that got into a fight and beat someone to death because their perception was so altered they didn't know when to stop after a small scuffle started. You've not seen the life that person HAD, , and threw away. This is what people don't get: I talk CASUALLY with these people on a daily basis, , and they have NO reason to lie to me. They tell me all the time about fights and drugs and all kinds of crap going on, , and it's not my business, not my place. I don't have any say in how soon they get out, or what the parameters they get out under are, they can't gain ANYTHING from lying to me, , and more often than not, they're telling me something they did WRONG rather than hiding it. When you speak of MJ motivating a crime, , I don't think you get what is meant: A guy stabbing someone over a drug deal where one guy's scale said 1lb, the other's says 0.996 lb including the bag, and a fight ensues. The thing many mental health professionals notice, is the when a drug, ANY drug, INCLUDING MJ is injected into any situation, , things escalate moreso than without. A comment turns into an arguement turns into a shove, , but throw in drugs, INCLUDING WEED, and it more often escalates into a punch, , a stabbing, , a shooting than it does without the presence of weed. The other stance many take is that since THEY get all mellow and laid back after smoking up, , that everyone does. Why do people think this when it obviously doesn't apply to Alcohol or any OTHER drug? Some people get mellow, , some want to fight, , some want to sing, , some get agressive in a sexual way, , all kinds of different reactions. Weed is no different. I find it humorous how the paranoia that WEED brings on is used as a reason that weed should be LEGAL, , ok, , what about the paranoia METH brings out? Paranoia is NOT a good thing. Maybe to someone in the right environment it's not a terribly BAD thing, , but it's rarely, if ever a good thing.

Like I said, people don't want to believe weed is responsible for anything, , but it often is, same as alcohol is. Every once in a while in Alaska they make a previously dry village wet, or vice-versa, , and the crime rate shows dramatically. Somehow people are convinced that this phenomenom is strictly an alcohol issue, , and doesn't apply to weed. That's just not true. You mentioned smoking in college, , I can't imagine a BETTER setting for smoking weed, , now lets get realistic and realize that huge portions of the population are in a much different setting.

[ghouck]

Having lived in Holland, I think it would make little difference 5 years down the line.  Society would not fall, we would not become a whole pack of weedheads or anything.  That is, if all the alcohol regulations are as stated earlier in the thread.  It still impairs your ability to drive and such.

I was amazed to see how little marijuana effected life in the Netherlands.  You see the Coffeeshops, some folks use them and many don't.  Once you leave Amserdam and the stoned college kids, you just see the odd place that seels it.  You can go in or not, just like a bar.  I did feel that the decent folks looks down on those who went to those places too often.  Can any Dutch friends comment? Do we have Dutch friends here?


Of course reefer makes you go crazy and kill people, so maybe not the best idea:
http://www.badmovies.org/othermovies/reefermad/

-Ed

P.S. speaking of siezed medical marijuana. I saw this in the paper 30 seconds after hitting "post"  http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10380112

I've been to Holland, and I have to say that it works VERY well for them, , but when you see people over THERE vs people in the US using, , it's two completely different situations, just the same as our violent crimes rates are vastly different. One couple I talked to in Amsterdam said they questioned how long it was going to remain legal, because of, ,and I quote "Idiots from all over the world coming here and F-ing it up for everyone". I took for granted that many of those "Idiots" were Americans.

[AnubisVonMojo]

I used to be for the legalization of pot, but when I sat down and thought about, I changed my mind. The last thing I need is Uncle Sam harshing my buzz by taxing my joints and watering down my sweet leaf with a "regulation high". I don't drive when I'm high (I get too paranoid to leave my house), I don't hurt anybody but my supply of snacks when I smoke, and if you ask my friends, I'm even more entertaining when I'm fogged up.

[Rev. Powell]

Ghouk, we're just drawing inferences from different sets of life experiences.  I don't think anyone in the prison is really lying to you.  I just don't think the prison population is a good, representative sample to draw inferences about the effects of marijuana from.  Can you isolate the effect of MJ?  Don't lots of them drink and do other drugs as well, and have underling psychological problems to boot? 

Sure, every drug effects people differently, and any drug's likely to encourage anti-social behavior in some people. 

I would be shocked if crime rates didn't rise in dry counties that went wet.  But, speaking as someone who drinks responsibly,  I wouldn't want to live in a dry county.  I don't want me teetotalling neighbors to tell me what I can and can't do in my spare time because of some damn statitstics.  I find it hard to have a different rule in regards to MJ, which I find to have less of a violence-inducing effect than alcohol.       

I find the fact that college students smoke weed and lie back and giggle, while gang members smoke the same weed while executing drive-bys, as evidence that other environmental factors are more improtant to crime than MJ use.  And like I say, your view of the drug doesn't jive with my personal experience, or the experience of otters I've known.  But I do agree with you about the other effects: the effect on driving, the potential waste of potential, etc.  I'm not an uncritical defender of the drug.

Someday we'll have to go to Amsterdam and continue this discussion over a nice, peaceful joint. 

[AnubisVonMojo]

And like I say, your view of the drug doesn't jive with my personal experience, or the experience of otters I've known.

The otters where you live smoke weed?! Damn Rev, you're lucky. The otters around here just glare at me threateningly and tell me to "keep walking". 

[ghouck]

I just don't think the prison population is a good, representative sample to draw inferences about the effects of marijuana from. 

You live in one community within your state. A Prison is representative of my entire state, as people in it are from all over the state. The control group of YOUR community in no better of a representation of your population than any other. Like I said, your college experience tilts the board WAY into your favor being idyllic. How often do you visit the nastiest ghettos? The ultra-plush rich neighborhoods? The Projects? The closest loving community to downtown in the biggest city? The smallest suburban hick town? Not just VISIT, , but spend long periods of time dealing closely with those people.

I find it hard to have a different rule in regards to MJ, which I find to have less of a violence-inducing effect than alcohol.

You, , maybe, , on others, I have proof otherwise. For that matter, few truly understand the effects of ALCOHOL, even though it's much more widely used. Ever had any experience with someone experiencing a psychotic effect due to alcohol? I've seen it quite a few times. You point out that our experiences are different, probably true, , but I'm willing to bet that the major differences are that I've experienced more people of vastly greater backgrounds, without the opportunity to just pack up and leave when the going started getting rough, which makes a huge difference.

Now, with that said, I have never implied that criminalization was a perfect cure, ,or even a relatively good one, my main point is that so few people really understand it's effects on society and such. We have a guy that works for me that went on some "dope fueled rampage" and everyone assumes it was Meth. Nope, , it was MJ.

[AnubisVonMojo]

We have a guy that works for me that went on some "dope fueled rampage" and everyone assumes it was Meth. Nope, , it was MJ.

Was his sh!t laced with PCP or something?! I've never known anyone on straight pot who ever did anything beyond eat Cheetos, play Mario Kart, and have stupid ideas that sounded good at the time. What are you guys growing up in Alaska, G?!

[Patient7]

I voted no, I never have smoked MJ nor will I ever (go ahead and make fun of me!) so I am not the best source for opinion, however, a lot of bad crap has happened to people and I for one would like to prevent it, even though a lot of other people seem to have enjoyed it.

[ghouck]

We have a guy that works for me that went on some "dope fueled rampage" and everyone assumes it was Meth. Nope, , it was MJ.

Was his sh!t laced with PCP or something?! I've never known anyone on straight pot who ever did anything beyond eat Cheetos, play Mario Kart, and have stupid ideas that sounded good at the time. What are you guys growing up in Alaska, G?!

I read the test results as a part of his conviction packet. Nothing but THC. I'm telling you, this happens more than people think. It's just one of those things that people don't talk about because they don't want to admit it's true. I'm not saying it's as common as someone freaking out on meth or anything, , ,but it DOES happen, and more than most people know, , and when they're told about it, , it's almost always blown off with some "Back when I was a pac-man playing teenager" analogy.

[Rev. Powell]

I just don't think the prison population is a good, representative sample to draw inferences about the effects of marijuana from. 

You live in one community within your state. A Prison is representative of my entire state, as people in it are from all over the state. The control group of YOUR community in no better of a representation of your population than any other. Like I said, your college experience tilts the board WAY into your favor being idyllic. How often do you visit the nastiest ghettos? The ultra-plush rich neighborhoods? The Projects? The closest loving community to downtown in the biggest city? The smallest suburban hick town? Not just VISIT, , but spend long periods of time dealing closely with those people.

I find it hard to have a different rule in regards to MJ, which I find to have less of a violence-inducing effect than alcohol.

You, , maybe, , on others, I have proof otherwise. For that matter, few truly understand the effects of ALCOHOL, even though it's much more widely used. Ever had any experience with someone experiencing a psychotic effect due to alcohol? I've seen it quite a few times. You point out that our experiences are different, probably true, , but I'm willing to bet that the major differences are that I've experienced more people of vastly greater backgrounds, without the opportunity to just pack up and leave when the going started getting rough, which makes a huge difference.

Now, with that said, I have never implied that criminalization was a perfect cure, ,or even a relatively good one, my main point is that so few people really understand it's effects on society and such. We have a guy that works for me that went on some "dope fueled rampage" and everyone assumes it was Meth. Nope, , it was MJ.
[/quote]

My experience is not geographically limited, as I've been a bit of a nomad my whole life, but it is largely limited to the middle and upper-middle classes.  But, if the middle class folks I encounter don't experience the supposed crime inducing effects of MJ, while the lower classes who make up the bulk of the prison population supposedly do, that suggests to me that the effect is more class-based than drug based.

I have seen someone have a psychotic reaction to alcohol, but that was just a random encounter and I don't draw any inference from it.  I've never see someone have a psychotic reaction to marijuana, but I don't draw any inference from that, either.

As I said, our experiences are different, and it's hopeless to argue from anecdotal evidence.  It would be stupid of me to argue that marijuana had never been a factor in a single crime, but I find it hard to believe.

I base my opinion of marijuana's non-effect on crime both on my personal experience and on the studies and reports I have read or heard of.  The committee ironically commissioned by Nixon to drum up support for the War on Drugs famously b***h-slapped him by failing to find a link between marijuana use and violent crime.  I'm not aware of any study since that refutes the notion, even though the government has put a lot of money into trying to prove the opposite.

Really, I don't want to argue.  One of the reasons I don't like to get into these kinds of discussions is they take up time, can cause hard feelings, and neither side end up convincing the other.  There's nothing wrong with a little friendly debate, but I sense we've reached the point where we're both spinning our wheels on this issue.

[Zapranoth]

I think that ideally people would not make a single self-destructive choice...  no batter-fried onions, no drinking a fifth in one night, no meth, no coke, no hitting children, no rape...

In the real world?  I think that in the real world, marijuana should not be legal.  To argue it has benefit is iffy at best.  I think a stronger argument, for harm, can be made.  Likely harm, no significant benefit?  Outlaw it.  But the problem is that outlawing something is really not the question that one should ask.  To quote good old Hannibal:  What need does it serve?

I think the survey is pretty pointless and divisive.  Ask a better question.

[ghouck]

My experience is not geographically limited, as I've been a bit of a nomad my whole life, but it is largely limited to the middle and upper-middle classes.  But, if the middle class folks I encounter don't experience the supposed crime inducing effects of MJ, while the lower classes who make up the bulk of the prison population supposedly do, that suggests to me that the effect is more class-based than drug based.

That's always the NEXT step, , and it's also wrong. That would fly if you believe that the entire prison population was of lower classes. Not true.

This is the exact type of deflection I encounter, , blame it on everything else, , don't admit MJ is a major factor. It is, , but people won't admit and are adamant in their excuses, , even though their experience is limited and from a distance.

Really, I don't want to argue.

You take all the fun out of it. . 

[AndyC]

I think the survey is pretty pointless and divisive.  Ask a better question.

I dunno. Seems like a pretty civilized and mature debate so far, and the topic is certainly, well, topical. I'm finding it quite enlightening, if not with regard to the subject itself, then with regard to the views and experiences of people on the board. Looking at Ghouk's picture, I'm particularly surprised that he's against marijuana. 

Seriously, we have a few people who smoke it, a prison guard, a couple of people who have been to Holland, a reporter (myself) with experience on the crime and court beats, and so on. A nice diversity of experiences and opinions that have so far been expressed without any needless hostility, or any moaning about the cops needlessly spoiling people's fun. I'm impressed, so far.

[Rev. Powell]

My experience is not geographically limited, as I've been a bit of a nomad my whole life, but it is largely limited to the middle and upper-middle classes.  But, if the middle class folks I encounter don't experience the supposed crime inducing effects of MJ, while the lower classes who make up the bulk of the prison population supposedly do, that suggests to me that the effect is more class-based than drug based.

That's always the NEXT step, , and it's also wrong. That would fly if you believe that the entire prison population was of lower classes. Not true.

This is the exact type of deflection I encounter, , blame it on everything else, , don't admit MJ is a major factor. It is, , but people won't admit and are adamant in their excuses, , even though their experience is limited and from a distance.

Really, I don't want to argue.

You take all the fun out of it. . 

I don't believe the entire population is made up of the lower classes, just that they are represented disproportionately, along with the mentally ill, people who were abused as children, etc.

I think MJ may well be a MINOR factor, but how can you quantify it?  How can you isolate it among all the other factors that cause criminal behavior?  Sure, you can cite specific examples and cases, but anecdotal evidence is always weak evidence, even though sometimes it's the best we can come up with.

The problem with this argument that you and I are having is that you are arguing from your personal experience, and there's no way for me to counter that without attacking your credibility, which I wouldn't want to do.  Look, you're implicitly accusing me of making excuses and having limited experience (being naive in the ways of the world), which I find mildly annoying, though not offensive.  That's because as long as the argument is based on personal experience, we don't have anywhere to go but to try to attack the other person, no matter how nice we try to be about it. 

I could cite some studies that found no link between violence and marijuana, but I'm sure there's no way that would outweigh your personal experience. 

And besides, I have no reason to doubt the specific instances that you cite.  I just don't think they can be used to establish the general rule you're arguing for.  In the end, we're arguing about degrees, whether the impact of marijuana on crime is a major factor, as you state, or a negligible one.

Sorry to take more fun out.            

[AnubisVonMojo]

All I know is all this negativity is bringing me down. I'm gonna go spark up Mr. Happy Pipe and watch some Hong Kong movie about people being possessed by an evil cat ghost.