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October 30, 2014, 07:31:15 AM
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Author Topic: A simple question . . . . .  (Read 8392 times)
Captain Tars Tarkas
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 01:18:49 AM »

Of course the decision is that easy when you downplay all the violence in the name of Christianity and load your comparison like that.  And especially when you ignore the Old Testimant, from the killing of firstborn sons, to the condoning of selling children into slavery, to the slaughter of children by bears for mocking a bald person, the bible is filled with more violence than a season's worth of 24. 

Heck, let's load a comparison even more: How come whenever there are child porn rings busted, it is always with preachers and pastors getting busted?  That's not what Jesus meant by "Suffer the Little Children to Come Unto Me"


Here's a better question:  How come when people argue about religion on the internet, no one wins?
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 01:55:47 AM »

okay first of all I'd like to say you guys are keeping this argument pretty civil, just like this forums always managed to do.

And now on to my point... Look guys you can keep arguing about this for pages and pages, and there will be no definite winner. For every despicable act of violence, discrimination etc. etc. made in the name of religion theres another waiting to counter it.

  All three religions that base themeselves off the old testament, Christianity, Islam and even Judaism have have had acts off violence made in their name  in this past century.

You guys can argue this all you want and like Tars Tarkas pointed out no ones gonna win this arguement. So ease up please?
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indianasmith
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 06:25:45 AM »

Good point Tars . . .  however, are you sure kiddie porn rings ALWAYS involve pastors . . . or is it just that when a pastor is caught, it is considered newsworthy and gets reported more?

The OT incidents of violence,incidentally, are NOT part of the doctrines of Christianity.  They are a historical record of what happened in ancient times, but again, look at the teachings of Jesus Christ and show many anything that incites his followers to violence, and you will see it isn't there.

I'm not trying to WIN this discussion, per se.  It's just that the bombing in Pakistan this weekend for me underscored yet again the violent nature of Islam.  When something blows up anywhere, a Muslim always seems to be involved.
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 06:50:00 AM »

but again, look at the teachings of Jesus Christ and show many anything that incites his followers to violence, and you will see it isn't there.


Are you sure about that Indiana?  I'm sure someone can find something somewhere, and take it out of context, much like we can take alot of the Islamic teachings out of context...


Anyways, I'm sort of with Menard on this one...  TongueOut

Well kinda.


I'm also wondering where this is leading and what the point of it is?  Seems like a loaded question really and hardly a simple one...  What are the ramifications of an answer regardless of what it is?

If the Islamic religion as a whole is rooted in violence, as the question implies, what does that mean for the western world?  Does that mean we have to wipe the religion off the face of the earth?  Hardly...


I should point out this article which is an interesting read about Islamic and Christian Terrorists, which may add to this discussion.

http://www.nowpublic.com/politics/islamic-terrorism-vs-christian-terrorism


Think for the moment about the way the world is.  Take into account population density, location, economy, education levels and history of the world.

Does anyone think it's possible that a someone's personal situation guides his actions, taking religion out of the equation?


Read this interesting site and pick it apart as you wish:

http://www.islam101.com/terror/christianViolence.htm

There's some inconsistencies there, sure, but there's some history for you regarding some alleged Christian-based violence.


There is a lot of violent action out there, and no-one can doubt that at the moment the majority of terrorists are Islamic, but I don't see this being the case for all time forever and ever amen.

I personally think that there is a social cause at the basis of a majority of these acts of terrorism, and that Islamic theology is able to excuse these things alot easier than your usual western religions.

See here for a brief article on this:
http://intelwire.egoplex.com/2007_05_30_exclusives.html


So you have two religions, one that preaches "Turn the other cheek" but doesn't always practice it, and one that preaches "Make war on the unbeliever" and practices that creed daily. (I know, not all Muslims do, but a depressingly large number of them either practice or condone violence.)

Do you really believe the two are morally equivalent?

That is the question.


This is particularly problematic because it implies moral superiority on the issue.  You ask a hard-line Muslim if they are morally right and I bet they'll tell you they are.  Different cultures offer different experiences and different perspectives.  Christian society hardly turns the cheek all the time, and certainly every Islamic country doesn't make 'war on the unbelievers' daily.  That's not a very well thought out comparison sorry to say: American government by it's very admission cannot turn the other cheek. 

Of course my whole post here isn't well thought out either so who am I to judge that statement...  TeddyR


Western society is hardly the paragon of virtue.  If Western Christian-based society is so morally superior, we must be the worlds biggest hypocrites as well with how we treat people of other nations.

In my country we have what is called 'The Stolen Generation' which was, to give you the cliff notes, effectively a genocide against the aboriginal population.  Essentially what happened was white men and women taking aboriginal kids away from their parents, all in the name of moral superiority.  What you got was a generation of children who grew up not knowing their roots, many not even knowing their real parents.  And this happened in the last century.

If you tally up the damage western society has caused in wider terms than just 'death from bombing' and to talk about economics as well I think that we would, and should, be ashamed of ourselves for being so morally righteous on the issue... How many lives were ruined by colonialism?


The one saving grace is that Western society is able to change, and not be completely dominated by religion because of it.  Even that Islam101 site makes note of the fact that most of the violence committed by religion aren't a direct result of Jesus' teachings.

Islamic Theology, from what little I know about it, is comparitively more archaic and much more rooted in history as opposed to being more based around contemporary ideals.  Therefore it's more rigid and inflexible.  I must say that I can't think of a modern Islamic society that has strayed significantly from ancient teachings.


This article provides an interesting alternative view on what is going on in regards to religious terrorism: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/10/14/34137/655

I certainly agree with much of what is said there: Modernity threatens Old ideals.  Who can be surprised then that there will be a backlash from modernity?


I very much think it's worthwhile skirting around that Islam101 site, and try to keep an open mind about it rather than dismissing it straight away. I certainly learnt more than I expected from that site.  Educating onesself on the facts will stop alot of disinformation from spreading.  Think of all the people who still think Obama is Islamic?  Ridiculous...

Um...

Yeah... I must point out I'm not trying to battle away here, and more just promoting a slightly different view on things.  Nothing is ever as black and white as it may seem.

I should also apologise to indianasmith: I'm not trying to bring him down or abuse him personally by directly talking about some of his arguments, he's just so darned quotable!  TongueOut
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 06:55:23 AM by dean » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 08:27:44 AM »



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ER
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 09:46:12 AM »

Americans alive today, especially those in generations born after Vietnam, mine among them, have been hardwired to see tolerance as the greatest good, and arising from that is this disturbing idea that intolerance itself must be tolerated. I think the terror so many Americans feel of being seen as unenlightened and non-embracing of diversity has taken over reason and common sense, and led to an overall failure to carry the blame for recent religiously-inspired mass murders to the doorstep of Islam.

Still, I am less concerned with the why, as in why does Islam breed such violent hatred, than I am with the simple failure of so many in the west to recognize that it does. We are dwelling in an age of cultural struggle of proportions unseen in living memory (including the Cold War and the Second World War) and it is as if most people in the United States and western Europe are in a state of tepid denial.

So whatever the reason for widespread Islamic hatred of the west, let us at least recognize that it exists, and it imperils us individually and collectively.
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 09:48:21 AM »

Of course the decision is that easy when you downplay all the violence in the name of Christianity and load your comparison like that.  And especially when you ignore the Old Testimant, from the killing of firstborn sons, to the condoning of selling children into slavery, to the slaughter of children by bears for mocking a bald person, the bible is filled with more violence than a season's worth of 24. 

The question was: "could someone please tell me the last time a radical Baptist, Methodist, or Lutheran blew up a schoolbus or a busy marketplace in the name of their faith?"

The original question was NOT "Who throughout history has done the most". Much of the "back in the thirteenth century" type of answers sound like straw-man arguments to me.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 09:51:55 AM by ghouck » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 10:25:50 AM »

Quote
This is particularly problematic because it implies moral superiority on the issue.  You ask a hard-line Muslim if they are morally right and I bet they'll tell you they are.  Different cultures offer different experiences and different perspectives.  Christian society hardly turns the cheek all the time, and certainly every Islamic country doesn't make 'war on the unbelievers' daily.  That's not a very well thought out comparison sorry to say: American government by it's very admission cannot turn the other cheek.

So the American government is wholy representative of Christianity? If not, that answer isn't to the point.

Quote
Western society is hardly the paragon of virtue.  If Western Christian-based society is so morally superior, we must be the worlds biggest hypocrites as well with how we treat people of other nations.

A diversion from the original simple question. I'm not sure why people need to lump on all this other junk on top of what was a rightly titled SIMPLE QUESTION. Why is it that most references to violence by "Radical Christians" is really just, , The US governments actions? I'm still waiting for someone, ANYONE  to answer the original questions. I can pick up the newspaper every day for a week and guaranteed that in that week, I WILL see killings by Muslims in the name of their faith, usually soley for the purpose of causing TERROR, yet some feel that is negated by things that have happened decades or centuries ago, and things done by the US Government (please keep ignoring the fact that we have the constitutional right to choose our own religion). The Islamic faith tells it's followers to exterminate non-believers, , but somehow people equate that to, , the bible, , having STORIES of violence, violence that had apparently ALREADY HAPPENED? How is that even close to the same thing? How does that equate to modern-day killings in the name of Christianity? Again, the question was: "could someone please tell me the last time a radical Baptist, Methodist, or Lutheran blew up a schoolbus or a busy marketplace in the name of their faith?"

I'm beginning to believe the answer is NO, NOBODY can tell that. .

Quote
Are you sure about that Indiana?  I'm sure someone can find something somewhere, and take it out of context, much like we can take alot of the Islamic teachings out of context...

So, , because someone COULD take something out of the bible out of context and act upon it in a violent manner, that's the same as Islam ROUTINELY TEACHING it's followers to act out violently against the "Infidels", and many of them ROUTINELY DOING IT?

Ask just about any Muslim what their beliefs are, and you don't need to take it out of context  to see it is a directive to murder. Stretch it around all you want, it's a doctorine of murder. Now again, the question was: "could someone please tell me the last time a radical Baptist, Methodist, or Lutheran blew up a schoolbus or a busy marketplace in the name of their faith?"

Does anyone here even know what got Al-Queda started on their anti-US tyrade? I'll give you a hint: It started with us simply stepping foot in Saudia Arabia, that's it, we people that have no right to be alive and should be exterminated immediately, stepped foot on their "Scared Ground".
« Last Edit: September 22, 2008, 10:35:38 AM by ghouck » Logged

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Raffine
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2008, 10:31:44 AM »






Unfortunately there plenty of hate in this world for all religions:

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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 11:44:18 AM »

1. I hope people can see the difference between claims that God hates someone, anda directive to murder people who do not worship the same as you do.
2. Keep in mind we don't know where that picture was taken, or which God they are speaking of.
3. I'm not convinced that isn't staged, how can someone shoehorn "God Hates Fags" and "Thank God for IEDs" into the same protest.

You're right, there's quite a bit of hate an discontent, , but hate and discontent is not the same as a directive to murder.
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2008, 12:01:36 PM »

3. I'm not convinced that isn't staged, how can someone shoehorn "God Hates Fags" and "Thank God for IEDs" into the same protest.

I cannot see the image, but it must be that one group of Christian radicals from Kansas.  They show up to protest at the funerals of military members killed in Iraq.  They're just looking for attention, and they found a way to get it.

They have threatened to protest at a couple of the funerals I have been at.  They only (apparently) showed up for one of those, but were on the other side of about 100 Freedom Riders who also showed up, so we never even saw the idiots.  Probably for the best.
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2008, 03:12:19 PM »

3. I'm not convinced that isn't staged, how can someone shoehorn "God Hates Fags" and "Thank God for IEDs" into the same protest.

I cannot see the image, but it must be that one group of Christian radicals from Kansas.  They show up to protest at the funerals of military members killed in Iraq.  They're just looking for attention, and they found a way to get it.

They have threatened to protest at a couple of the funerals I have been at.  They only (apparently) showed up for one of those, but were on the other side of about 100 Freedom Riders who also showed up, so we never even saw the idiots.  Probably for the best.

The banned them in KY, the ACLU took up their case but it was shot down as a funeral is a private event and not subject to the 1st amendment, they've appealed but a few 'good' lawyers are keeping it tied up as long as possible.
Prior to the ban they showed up at one funeral here and the "good ol' boys" harassed and hosed them with water amongst a few other things, the local police didn't see a thing.
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2008, 04:49:18 PM »

Look, so long as there will be religion, people will abuse it.  It's not even the church leader's fault (most of the time).  Just because a few people decide to take the teachings to an extreme level does not mean an entire religion should be berated.  But still, these acts have been more outlandish as of late and some blame needs to be taken.  The main thing is that there will never be peace until there is at least mutual respect amongst all races and religions.  People are entitled to their own opinions, but it has to be earned by noting that everyone else is as well.  I don't care if / how you feel about gays, Arabians, midgets, black people, white people, sluts, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, I could go on and on; just keep it to the point of talking about.

As I always say in these kinds of debates, I'm only 16 so I really know very little on the subject.
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2008, 05:49:43 PM »

As I always say in these kinds of debates, I'm only 16 so I really know very little on the subject.

Ha! When I was 16, I knew everything!  TeddyR
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »

Well, living in Europe at the height of the Bader-Meinhoff Terrorists (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bader-meinhoff), and IRA attacks of the 70's-90's, I can safely say that Muslims do ot have a monopoly on terrorism.  They are just the current noisiest ones.
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