Bad Movie Logo
"A website to the detriment of good film"
Custom Search
HOMEB-MOVIE REVIEWSREADER REVIEWSFORUMINTERVIEWSUPDATESABOUT
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 21, 2014, 09:17:12 AM
533920 Posts in 40397 Topics by 5067 Members
Latest Member: E1673
Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Being ethnic(?) makes you less...human? « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
Author Topic: Being ethnic(?) makes you less...human?  (Read 6958 times)
Menard
Guest
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2008, 01:14:13 PM »

The author of the article you linked to states: "...We've raised two or maybe three generations of Americans who think they're entitled to shun the kind of jobs that their parents and grandparents did years ago..." 
I know too many parents who indulge their children and are horrified at the idea that they should make their children do chores, or work to earn money for a car... the very things their own parents often had insisted upon from them. 

Although I think his statement is a bit of an overstatement, I feel, on my part, that is largely by my experience of where I have lived and traveled.

With the increase in immigration, even where I live, we are seeing an increase in the number of service jobs being filled by migrant workers, even to the point of almost exclusively so. Perhaps within the larger cities, where I presume the author is from, this is even more evident.

My first job at 14 was as a janitor at my high school; that was full-time and I thought I was making a lot at $3.00 an hour. I also worked at the local Dairy Queen. I see young people in this little redneck town working at fast food places, Walmart, convenience stores, the theater, and the like. Go just one town over, though, and you will see a contrast in some of those positions where you will be more likely to find migrant workers at fast food places and single mothers or those trying to earn an extra dollar filling cashier positions at other places; but where the hell are the teenagers and how the hell can they afford the Xboxes, computers, and LCD TVs?


Certainly a contrast in what I was used to in my corner of the world was a week I spent in a small town in Mississippi. The lines of division by race were stark. Going into a McDonald's or grocery store, anybody in a cashier position was black; only their managers were white. Keep in mind that this was the 90s.

The prevailing attitude of the white folks in that town was that this is the way things have always been, it works for them, and they see no need for change.

Kind of like the attitude expressed by those opposed to gay marriage...huh?
Logged
AndyC
Global Moderator
B-Movie Kraken
****

Karma: 1398
Posts: 11161



« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2008, 01:28:06 PM »

Could you kindly point out where we even even came close to making the same point?

In that the definition of marriage is a subjective thing. People define it according to their own culture and beliefs.

Of course, from that, I conclude that perhaps government should not concern itself with subjective definitions of marriage and look only at the common elements - two consenting human adults in a committed relationship - for everyone. Leave marriage as a cultural institution to be defined and practiced by people as they see fit, which they're going to do anyway. People who don't agree with gay marriage aren't going to call it marriage no matter what laws are passed, and gay couples are going to enter into committed relationships regardless of what those other people say. And such relationships are already recognized as de facto marriages anyway. Redefining the terms, to me, is pointless. To put it into different terms, it's like the difference between calling somebody "differently abled" while treating him as essentially useless, and calling him a cripple and treating him with respect. Thoughts and deeds mean more than words. Playing around with the words we use will not change anyone's attitude, but might indeed encourage resentment and hostility.

A more tolerant society is what is needed, and it's moving that way, but it takes time. You can't force it, only help it along.

As for the definition of a cultural group, I think I made my position clear on that. One behavioral trait does not make a culture. I think you'll agree that homosexuals can be found throughout society, regardless of race, nationality, religion or political leanings. They share one single trait, and I don't see how it serves them to be lumped all together based on that one trait.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 02:04:52 PM by AndyC » Logged

---------------------
"Join me in the abyss of savings."
indianasmith
Archeologist, Theologian, Elder Scrolls Addict, and a
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 1394
Posts: 8166


A good bad movie is like popcorn for the soul!


« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2008, 02:51:17 PM »

Again, you are distinguishing between a BEHAVIOR and an innate, hereditary CHARACTERISTIC in an attempt to make me mean something I did not say or imply.

BIOLOGICAL CHARACTERISTICS are innate and inherited, BEHAVIORS are not.

The insistence that homosexuality is a behavior and not a biological characteristic is ignorant. I see it as the witch hunt it has always been. Have you ever known or been related to a homosexual? Have you ever heard them truly speak about how they feel? It doesn't take much listening before one realizes that this isn't something they 'decided', as you try to make it sound by labeling it as "behavior". Homosexuals ARE what they ARE, there's no changing that, no need to anyways, and no need to discriminate against them either.

BTW, are you trying to tell me that the state of Hawaii actually knowingly issued a marriage certificate to a dolphin, and not just through a previously unnoticed loophole in the law? Supposing they did, please explain how that effects YOU.


One of my lifelong friends is gay, and has been for years.  We hang out together several times a year, and his sexuality does not stop us from being friends.

I'm being dragged out the door, will talk more later.
Logged

"Carpe diem!" - Seize the day!  "Carpe per diem!" - Seize the daily living allowance! "Carpe carp!" - Seize the fish!
"Carpe Ngo Diem!" - Seize the South Vietnamese Dictator!
Menard
Guest
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2008, 02:58:46 PM »

One of my lifelong friends is gay, and has been for years.  We hang out together several times a year, and his sexuality does not stop us from being friends.

I'm being dragged out the door, will talk more later.

Interesting how those sentences work together. TongueOut

 TeddyR
Logged
ghouck
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 583
Posts: 3750


Afro-Mullets RULE!


WWW
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2008, 03:17:20 PM »


One of my lifelong friends is gay, and has been for years.  We hang out together several times a year, and his sexuality does not stop us from being friends.

I'm being dragged out the door, will talk more later.

Good, ask them if they feel their sexuality is behavior that can be controlled, or if it is a part of them biologically.
Logged

Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

James James: The man so nice, they named him twice.

"Aw man, this thong is chafing my balls" -Lloyd Kaufman in Poultrygeist.

"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
Jim H
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 237
Posts: 2944



« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2008, 03:48:58 PM »

"In that the definition of marriage is a subjective thing. People define it according to their own culture and beliefs."

Yep.  That's why marriage shouldn't play a part in it.  Committed adult couples should be able to get civil unions for the extra rights and responsibilities it gives them, for any reason.  The marriage part of the equation should be completely ignored by the government.
Logged
ER
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 281
Posts: 1667



« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2008, 05:40:24 PM »

Since this thread more or less began with a discussion of minority status, may I say that there is one minority group on earth that I find frequently annoying, prone to make wars, commit crimes, merge without giving signals, get in fistfights, be oversexed, have bad fashion sense and in general be totally illogical to me. This minority group is called.....MEN!  BounceGiggle
Logged

Seeking Tir a 'nOg since 1978.
Derf
Crazy Rabbity Thingy
Proofreader
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 387
Posts: 2434


Lagomorphs: menace or underutilized resource?


« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2008, 06:04:19 PM »

In reply to the actual topic here: those teenagers are murderers, plain and simple, as has been stated. To me it has never mattered the motivation for murder (hatred of a person for race is just as little reason for murder as hatred of a person for cheating in a relationship, cheating at gambling, or anything else). I don't care for the designation "hate crime" simply because murder is murder; to say that one is worse than the other because it was racially motivated is a poor argument.

As for the gay marriage debate, wouldn't it be simpler all around if the government simply stopped recognizing marriage all together? I'm a moral conservative and, as I have said when commenting on other topics, I am a devout Christian. That said, I do not believe that you can legislate morality beyond the basics (murder, rape, violence, theft, etc.). I am against the government trying to tell anyone what they can do in the bedroom; it simply doesn't work. As AndyC said (more or less), you need to change cultural perceptions before anything can be accepted as a "cultural norm," whatever that may actually mean. Marriages began as religious ceremonies, not civil arrangements. They were basically a declaration that the two people involved (yes, multiple wives were acceptable then, but they did each usually get their own ceremony) were heretofore bound and could feel free to procreate, practicing as much as they liked. These ceremonies had little if anything to do with the government. It seems to be a great time to return to that attitude: leave marriage for religious institutions, intervening only when said marriage does not involve consenting adults (i.e., marriage between an adult and a child or involving someone who is not capable of making a responsible decision, to keep anyone from marrying a comatose person, for example). Want to file a joint income tax return? Great! Want to visit your partner in the hospital? Peachy (although the policies of some hospitals might disagree)! If you are not religious, then "marriage" is not for you, be you heterosexual or homosexual (or bisexual, or transsexual, or transgendered, or whatever other sexual orientation/body image you may espouse).

Jim H put it more succinctly than I just did, but it seems to be a reasonable position to me, though I know it will never happen; people of all races, creeds and political ideologies simply like to fight too much, and the government doesn't just give up its authority simply because it had no business taking that authority in the first place. Plus the divorce lawyer lobby group is too powerful; they would probably sue if the government tried anything like this  TongueOut.
Logged

"They tap dance not, neither do they fart." --Greensleeves, on the Fig Men of the Imagination, in "Twice Upon a Time."
ghouck
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 583
Posts: 3750


Afro-Mullets RULE!


WWW
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2008, 06:21:30 PM »

Since this thread more or less began with a discussion of minority status, may I say that there is one minority group on earth that I find frequently annoying, prone to make wars, commit crimes, merge without giving signals, get in fistfights, be oversexed, have bad fashion sense and in general be totally illogical to me. This minority group is called.....MEN!  BounceGiggle

Merge without giving signal? You are so full of it. . .
Logged

Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

James James: The man so nice, they named him twice.

"Aw man, this thong is chafing my balls" -Lloyd Kaufman in Poultrygeist.

"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
ghouck
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 583
Posts: 3750


Afro-Mullets RULE!


WWW
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2008, 06:27:48 PM »

In reply to the actual topic here: those teenagers are murderers, plain and simple, as has been stated. To me it has never mattered the motivation for murder (hatred of a person for race is just as little reason for murder as hatred of a person for cheating in a relationship, cheating at gambling, or anything else). I don't care for the designation "hate crime" simply because murder is murder; to say that one is worse than the other because it was racially motivated is a poor argument.


Yep, I agree they are murderers. Unless they have a developmental disorder, every one of them knew that their actions could be deadly. Doesn't matter how they WANTED it to turn out, they knew that it COULD kill a person, and the went ahead anyways.
Logged

Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

James James: The man so nice, they named him twice.

"Aw man, this thong is chafing my balls" -Lloyd Kaufman in Poultrygeist.

"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
Menard
Guest
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2008, 08:59:02 PM »

In reply to the actual topic here: those teenagers are murderers, plain and simple, as has been stated. To me it has never mattered the motivation for murder (hatred of a person for race is just as little reason for murder as hatred of a person for cheating in a relationship, cheating at gambling, or anything else). I don't care for the designation "hate crime" simply because murder is murder; to say that one is worse than the other because it was racially motivated is a poor argument.

That's pretty sad.

Let me give you an example:


Billy Joe Ray Jim Bob, son of Jr., finds out that his brother, Cletus Elmo Magee, has been doing his wife. Aside from Billy Joe Ray Jim Bob, son of Jr., contemplating divorce and wondering if he and his wife would still legally be 1st cousins after the fact, he finds himself angry with Cletus Elmo Magee and confronts him about it. The two brothers get into a heated argue, tempers flair out of control, a fight ensues, and Cletus Elmo Magee is killed in the scuffle.

Billy Joe Ray Jim Bob, son of Jr., ends up in court and is convicted of the murder of his brother.


Seven youths decide they are going to kill a spic; and they do. They don't even know his name, or have any feeling about it; they are just stepping on an insect.

They are facing charges of manslaughter and assault; apparently they are not the only ones who think little of the victim's status as a human.


Yes, both end with dead bodies.

No, both are not the same.

In the first case, the killer knew his victim, emotions were involved, and he even recognized his victim as a human being; perhaps even more importantly than that, so did the jury recognize his victim as a human being.

In the second case, not only did the murderers not consider the victim a human, but, as ghouck pointed out, the prosecutor apparently feels they cannot get murder charges to fly with the likely jury with which they will have to deal.

Murder is murder?

Can you sit there and tell me with a straight face that two guys getting in a fight over one cheating with the other one's wife, and one of them getting killed in the fight, is the same as what recently happened with Jennifer Hudson's family? Not only were two adults shot dead in cold blood, but the deviant f**k murdered a defenseless 8 year old child. Can you sit there and tell me those are the same?

A bunch of white guys get together and decide to go out and shoot a black person; just simply because of the color of the victim's skin. They'll find someone walking along the side of the road or sitting on a bench and murder them with no more consideration than they would give a squirrel they plink with a 22. Is that the same as two guys who know each other getting in a fight over one of them cheating with the other one's wife?

I don't know exactly what classifying a crime as a hate crime does exactly, but if it gives more teeth to the prosecution of such crimes where juries most likely won't, then it is something that is needed to balance out the system, at least until we can do a better job at balancing ourselves; it may be the only justice victims of such crimes get.


*I have never had to deal with juries, serve on one, or deal with a court (lucky me Lookingup), so the aforementioned is speculation on my part. TongueOut
Logged
Derf
Crazy Rabbity Thingy
Proofreader
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 387
Posts: 2434


Lagomorphs: menace or underutilized resource?


« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2008, 09:50:55 PM »

The two cases you cited are not exactly comparable. I know, I made the comparison originally, and it was a poor choice. How about this: One group of murderous jackasses sets out to kill someone because of the color of that person's skin, religious beliefs, lifestyle choice, whatever, without knowing that person. Another group sets out to kill someone they don't know and rob them, either taking their car, wallet, purse, or whatever. Neither group knows or cares anything about their victim. Muggings resulting in grievous bodily harm/death are more common than "hate crimes." How then is killing someone for the $20 in their wallet not as bad as killing someone because they have the "wrong" color of skin? Sorry, but having to make special laws to deal with murder to give it more "bite" with juries is what is sad. As far as I am concerned, murder is murder, and the laws on the books are sufficient for prosecution. I have less to worry about from Billy Joe Ray Jim Bob (or Nunzio, or Carlos, or whatever name you want to ascribe to the aggressor in a crime of passion) in the long run, because those crimes are committed in a frenzy. Muggers, carjackers, gangbangers, klansmen, etc., are all of the same ilk, and yet you are going to tell me that a group who kills a minority is worse than a group who kills in a turf war or just for profit? Sorry, but I can't agree.
Logged

"They tap dance not, neither do they fart." --Greensleeves, on the Fig Men of the Imagination, in "Twice Upon a Time."
ghouck
Frightening Fanatic of Horrible Cinema
****

Karma: 583
Posts: 3750


Afro-Mullets RULE!


WWW
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2008, 10:08:16 PM »

You also get all the other crap thrown in like sorting through seven different versions of the facts in the second case, and the fact that juries, as unpredictable as they are, are even more so when kids are involved. Even though minors only make up a small fraction of criminal trials in the US, IIRC, they account for half of the number of cases that end with Jury Nullification (where a jury hands down a verdict of innocent not due to the belief in innocence, but rather due to not agreeing with the law or the punishments that could be imposed).

As far as hate crimes, it's another of those 'feel good laws' that do absolutely nothing except give taxpayers the illusion and (false) satisfaction that their elected officials are 'doing something'. Whats more is that it tends to drive DOWN punishments for the same crime when it is NOT declared a 'hate crime'. So the 'hate crime' laws that were lobbied as protecting minorities, is LOWERING the punishments handed down for the most common occurrences, minority v like minority crime (Black v Black is the most common form or murder in the US).

All in all though, our system is based on PEOPLE, and PEOPLE are flawed. The system is more of a "jockey for position" experience than a "get everything out in the open and let the jury decide". There was a special on TV called "The trial of Evan Zimmerman", about the re-trial of a guy that was completely railroaded by the system, and about how the system failed on so many levels in so many different ways.
Logged

Raw bacon is GREAT! It's like regular bacon, only faster, and it doesn't burn the roof of your mouth!

Happiness is green text in the "Stuff To Watch For" section.

James James: The man so nice, they named him twice.

"Aw man, this thong is chafing my balls" -Lloyd Kaufman in Poultrygeist.

"There's always time for lubricant" -Orlando Jones in Evolution
Menard
Guest
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2008, 10:10:37 PM »

Muggers, carjackers, gangbangers, klansmen, etc., are all of the same ilk, and yet you are going to tell me that a group who kills a minority is worse than a group who kills in a turf war or just for profit? Sorry, but I can't agree.

Would you like to point out where I specifically said that? I said no such thing.

Not only did you say
Quote
The two cases you cited are not exactly comparable. I know, I made the comparison originally, and it was a poor choice.

but you followed it up with
Quote
Sorry, but having to make special laws to deal with murder to give it more "bite" with juries is what is sad. As far as I am concerned, murder is murder, and the laws on the books are sufficient for prosecution.


That's a contradiction. If murder is murder, then the two cases I cited should be comparable regardless.


Quote
*...the laws on the books are sufficient for prosecution.

7 youths stab an Hispanic man to death and at best one is facing manslaughter charges. If you reversed that and the victim was white and stabbed to death by Hispanics, how many would not be looking at murder charges? That is sufficient?


*If you feel I quoted you out of context, please let me know.

Logged
Menard
Guest
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2008, 10:19:10 PM »

Even though minors only make up a small fraction of criminal trials in the US, IIRC, they account for half of the number of cases that end with Jury Nullification (where a jury hands down a verdict of innocent not due to the belief in innocence, but rather due to not agreeing with the law or the punishments that could be imposed).

I have a question for you, ghouck (just simply because I don't know).

I have understood that, depending on the state, juries may be restricted to limited options if they decide the defendant is guilty.

If that is the case, do you know if that has had much of an influence on juries finding defendants not guilty as they felt the charges they could use did not fit the crime?

As well, along those lines, can a jury, I guess depending on state again, return a verdict with a greater charge than what the prosecution was seeking?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Being ethnic(?) makes you less...human? « previous next »
    Jump to:  


    RSS Feed Subscribe Subscribe by RSS
    Email Subscribe Subscribe by Email


    Popular Articles
    How To Find A Bad Movie

    The Champions of Justice

    Plan 9 from Outer Space

    Manos, The Hands of Fate

    Podcast: Todd the Convenience Store Clerk

    Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill!

    Dragonball: The Magic Begins

    Cool As Ice

    The Educational Archives: Driver's Ed

    Godzilla vs. Monster Zero

    Do you have a zombie plan?

    FROM THE BADMOVIES.ORG ARCHIVES
    ImageThe Giant Claw - Slime drop

    Earth is visited by a GIANT ANTIMATTER SPACE BUZZARD! Gawk at the amazingly bad bird puppet, or chuckle over the silly dialog. This is one of the greatest b-movies ever made.

    Lesson Learned:
    • Osmosis: os·mo·sis (oz-mo'sis, os-) n., 1. When a bird eats something.

    Subscribe to Badmovies.org and get updates by email:

    HOME B-Movie Reviews Reader Reviews Forum Interviews TV Shows Advertising Information Sideshows Links Contact

    Badmovies.org is owned and operated by Andrew Borntreger. All original content is © 1998 - 2014 by its respective author(s). Image, video, and audio files are used in accordance with the Fair Use Law, and are property of the film copyright holders. You may freely link to any page (.html or .php) on this website, but reproduction in any other form must be authorized by the copyright holder.