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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #1875 on: May 14, 2017, 08:53:43 PM »

Quote
After Domitian died in 98 AD, John returned to Ephesus, where he was surrounded by his loyal disciples, and knowing his end was near, he wrote the Gospel that bears his name, probably using a scribe to record his words, which (along with the completely different subject matter of the two books) accounts for the difference in the language usage between the two.  

that he had a scribe write his own gospel is not backed by anyone in any school of thought on this. thats you personally supposing something

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, John dealt in the last chapter of his Gospel with the superstitious belief that he was going to live on till Christ came back,

They all thought that Christ was going to come back very soon. 'some standing here will not taste death" etc


Quote
Ehrman is forcing a contradiction where there is none.

Pauls says

"I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother"

acts says

"When many days had passed, the Jews plotted to kill him, but their plot became known to Saul. They were watching the gates day and night in order to kill him, but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a basket. And when he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples. And they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord,"

if thats not a contradiction theres no such tthing as a contradictiton

Quote
However, nearly everyone agrees that Luke and Acts are by the same person.

I did not nor does anyone I know of question that. That doesn't mean it was by Luke. He does use "we" Ehrman would argue it was just part of the forgery intending to show that Paul agreed with him, the author.

Quote
From the very earliest years of the Christian movement, these books were strongly associated with the men whose names they bear and NEVER once with any other.

The apostles and/ or their companions did not give them the names they have, they were added later so... They are believing the people who added the names which is different than believing what the text themselves claim. they were written 40+ years after Jesus died in a language he didn't speak

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Ehrman no longer believes in Christianity, and his work is guided by his desire to make others disbelieve.

what difference would that make? if he's right he's right regardless of his intent. if people who hate Christians criticize the bible for that reason and say "Jesus is portrayed as riding into town on two differnet animals at the same time because the author misread the Hebrew which double up the word donkey for emphasis" they're still right.

If you don't think the bible should be examined critically you can just avoid these sorts of books, debates etc


I'll just add that Jesus' followers when he was alive and immediately after didn't have any accounts of his life  or any letters, forged or not. they were still Christians. They were transformed by what he preached and transformed their lifestyles to be different than those of Jews or pagans. They didn't learn Christianity from Paul, they taught it to him.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 09:10:55 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

Pacman000
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« Reply #1876 on: May 14, 2017, 09:52:33 PM »

The Gospel of John does read like a transcript.  The author rambles, corrects himself (saying that Jesus baptized, then noting it was only his disciples,) and repeats himself (a technique oral story tellers used to remember the next part of their stories.)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 09:56:15 PM by Pacman000 » Logged

indianasmith
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« Reply #1877 on: May 14, 2017, 10:11:20 PM »

Point one -  Most first century authors used scribes; Paul used one and refers to them by name in a couple of letters, while adding his own signature at the end.  Peter refers to Silvanus as scribe and co-author of his first letter.  If John wrote his gospel when he was nearly 90, it's not much of a presumption at all to think that he dictated it rather than wielded a pen in his own shaky hand.

Point two - conceded, they thought Christ would return soon, but John still felt obligated to clarify that Jesus never said John would live till Jesus returned, as many were reporting.

Point Three - OK, read the quote from Galatians:  "After three years, I went up to Jerusalem."
Now from Acts:  ". . .  they lowered him in a basket.  And WHEN he had come to Jerusalem . . . "  It's not a huge reach to say those events were separated by a considerable span of time.  It doesn't say "he immediately went to Jerusalem" does it?

Point Four - There is Ehrman's bias: Assuming that Luke/Acts is a forgery.  THAT'S the point of view he is pushing because it enables him to deny that Jesus was the Christ, that he was resurrected, and that Christianity is true.  I can cite a dozen scholars with  just as impressive a resume as Ehrman who would argue that Luke is indeed the author of both books.  Of course, if they believe that, you will call them "evangelicals" and deny they have any credibility, REGARDLESS of the evidence they cite in validating their claims.  

Luke is a painstakingly accurate historian with an eye for detail that is truly impressive; he cites over forty Roman and provincial officials, either by name of by title, and in every case, he cites the right title for the right person at the right place at the right time.  A later forger would most likely get some of those things wrong.  Also, the fact that Acts ends where it does, with Paul under house arrest awaiting the trial before Nero, is a strong indicator that Luke wrote it before that trial was resolved.  Otherwise, why does he not record the Great Fire of Rome in 64, deaths of Peter and Paul in 68, or the death of James in 64?  All those were people he wrote about in great detail.  Why wouldn't he record their deaths?  Because he finished the book before they finished their lives.

Point Five - The Apostles didn't have to give the books their names, everyone knew who wrote them!  
And - you do know that Galilee was surrounded by Greek-speaking cities, right?  Most Galileans of Jesus' time could speak Greek; they would have had to if they were going to sell fish in Tiberias or the Decapolis!  Greek was the universal trade language of the ancient world.  Jesus even quotes the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT) on a couple of occasions.  So saying He didn't speak Greek is not just presumption but highly unlikely presumption at that!
As for 40+ years - or course, the date is the focal point of the debate.  I will concede John wrote his Gospel in the 90's AD - that was widely  known and even mentioned by some of the ancients.  But if Luke finished Acts in 62 (the point at which his story ends, and I think that is very likely when he finished the book), and he quotes both Matthew and Mark - well, then all three Synoptic Gospels were in existence by then.  That's not even 30 full years, which exponentially increases the odds that the Gospels were written either by eyewitnesses or men like Luke who spoke to the eyewitnesses.  The evidence for the early dates of the Gospels, IF VIEWED WITHOUT BIAS, is stronger than the evidence for the later dates.

Point Six and last - When I see people trying to undermine the truths I have built my life on, I am going to speak out. Period. Bart Ehrman presents his facts selectively to persuade people to his point of view.  There is a difference between critical analysis and deliberately skeptical analysis.
The donkey thing is a silly argument based on an overly literal reading of one word.  They grabbed the donkey and brought her foal so she wouldn't try to go back to it, a sensible enough precaution.  

It's true that Jesus' followers didn't initially write their memories down, they shared them verbally among themselves and with new believers.  But, after a couple of decades, it's not illogical to suppose the aging apostles either wrote down what they recalled or else helped someone else prepare written accounts.

My point in all of this (and I am enjoying it and willing to continue if you wish, or abandon it if you wish) is that Bart Erhman is a smart guy, a great lecturer, and also a man whose active agenda is to make more people abandon Christianity as he did.  That agenda drives everything he writes; it colors his scholarship and causes him to present facts in a very selective manner, ignoring or downplaying anything that doesn't fit his narrative.  By all means read his new book, but I would also challenge you to read some of the scholars who have looked at the same evidence and come to the exact opposite conclusion.  J.P. Moreland, F.F. Bruce, Craig Evans, and Bruce Metzger just to name a few.

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Pacman000
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« Reply #1878 on: May 14, 2017, 10:17:05 PM »

Without a printing press it would have made little sense to write everything down at the start of the ministry. Too few followers; little chance the writings would survive. Get the word out then write for future generations.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #1879 on: May 15, 2017, 10:43:06 AM »

Quote
Paul used one and refers to them by name in a couple of letters,

yes exactly. Paul refers to himself and the scribe. John does neither

Quote
it's not much of a presumption at all to think that he dictated it rather than wielded a pen in his own shaky hand.

 I doubt he used two different scribes with two different levels of education to write Revelation and then the gospel that bears his name. and was an apocolyptic Jewish Christian in one and a (relatively) milquetoast but eloquent non judaized Christian very interested, at 90, in the issues of the day circa late 1st century in the 2nd.  

3

Acts says "They were watching the gates day and night in order to kill him, but his disciples took him by night and let him down through an opening in the wall, lowering him in a basket. And when he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples."

I mean...occum's razor the next sentence and no mention of any years long arabia sojourn means he went right from one to the other

Quote
Of course, if they believe that, you will call them "evangelicals" and deny they have any credibility,

No I listen to and read all kinds of stuff.  Ehrmans youtube channel is filled with him having debates with guys who oppose him, some of them the people you mentioned  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=barth+ehrman+craig+evnas


Quote
The Apostles didn't have to give the books their names, everyone knew who wrote them!  

 Just because they cancelled Bill oreilly doesn't mean there is a "free spin zone" now. No one doesn't name a book because everyone knws the title thats crazy

Quote
So saying He didn't speak Greek is not just presumption but highly unlikely presumption at that!

you were in israel did people speak Greek?

"According to Hebrew historian Josephus, Greek was not spoken in first century Judea. Josephus also points out the extreme rarity of a Jew knowing Greek.[8]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus

Quote
When I see people trying to undermine the truths I have built my life on, I am going to speak out.

yeah but it comes off as Christian SJW ing. its not enough to counter the arguments you have to impugn the whole IDEA of countering arguments and ascribe motives to the people.

Western civilization to me is being able to criticize tradition AND criticize criticism of that tradition and not freak out about people doing one or the other. If you have no criticism of tradition you are like Wahabis. on the other hand, if you have no criticism of the criticism you are like communists

Quote
They grabbed the donkey and brought her foal so she wouldn't try to go back to

Mathew has has foal and Luke doesnt though. maybe it was one of those talking donkeys and Luke was so horrified he blocked it out? anything is possible in the realm of Indiana smith apologetics!

 more to the point: there was no donkey ride into the city. Jesus walked everywhere. the story was invented to prove a prophecy and convey that the leader would be humble and so forth. except Mathew messed it up.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 11:21:23 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

Pacman000
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« Reply #1880 on: May 15, 2017, 05:04:00 PM »

Quote
11 Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not based on human thought.[e] 12 For I did not receive it from a human source and I was not taught it, but it came by a revelation from Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard about my former way of life in Judaism: I persecuted God’s church to an extreme degree and tried to destroy it. 14 I advanced in Judaism beyond many contemporaries among my people, because I was extremely zealous for the traditions of my ancestors. 15 But when God, who from my birth set me apart and called me by His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me, so that I could preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone.[f] 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to those who had become apostles before me; instead I went to Arabia and came back to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to get to know Cephas,[g] and I stayed with him 15 days. 19 But I didn’t see any of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 Now I am not lying in what I write to you. God is my witness.[h]

21 Afterward, I went to the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 I remained personally unknown to the Judean churches in Christ; 23 they simply kept hearing: “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God because of me.
Galatians 1:11-21 HCSB Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+1&version=HCSB

Quote
10 There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias!”

“Here I am, Lord!” he said.

11 “Get up and go to the street called Straight,” the Lord said to him, “to the house of Judas, and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, since he is praying there. 12 In a vision[a] he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and placing his hands on him so he can regain his sight.”

13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard from many people about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has authority here from the chief priests to arrest all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go! For this man is My chosen instrument to take My name to Gentiles, kings, and the Israelites. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for My name!”

17 So Ananias left and entered the house. Then he placed his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road you were traveling, has sent me so that you can regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

18 At once something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized. 19 And after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Saul Proclaiming the Messiah

Saul was with the disciples in Damascus for some days. 20 Immediately he began proclaiming Jesus in the synagogues: “He is the Son of God.”

21 But all who heard him were astounded and said, “Isn’t this the man who, in Jerusalem, was destroying those who called on this name and then came here for the purpose of taking them as prisoners to the chief priests?”

22 But Saul grew more capable and kept confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that this One is the Messiah.

23 After many days had passed, the Jews conspired to kill him, 24 but their plot became known to Saul. So they were watching the gates day and night intending to kill him, 25 but his disciples took him by night and lowered him in a large basket through an opening in the wall.
Saul in Jerusalem

26 When he arrived in Jerusalem, he tried to associate with the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, since they did not believe he was a disciple. 27 Barnabas, however, took him and brought him to the apostles and explained to them how Saul had seen the Lord on the road and that He had talked to him, and how in Damascus he had spoken boldly in the name of Jesus. 28 Saul was coming and going with them in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He conversed and debated with the Hellenistic Jews, but they attempted to kill him. 30 When the brothers found out, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

31 So the church throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace, being built up and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, and it increased in numbers.
Acts 9:10-31 HCSB Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts+9&version=HCSB

Seems the basics of the stories are the same; Paul was converted in Damascus, spent some time preaching there before coming to Jerusalem, so at the very least both stories are based on the same set of facts.  The time Paul spent in and around Damascus seems to be the main point of dispute.  Assuming the author of Acts used multiple sources the mystery around Paul's conversion could account for the discrepancy in details; Luke, or whoever wrote Acts, had to unite many similar stories which didn't quite match up. If the author was Paul's traveling companion the author could've asked Paul, but that would've been sloppy research. (See 1 Cor 1: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1&version=HCSB)

(Sorry for the long post. Tomorrow I'll try to write up something about a book I'm reading.  That's what this thread's for.)
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« Reply #1881 on: May 15, 2017, 05:44:07 PM »



(Sorry for the long post. Tomorrow I'll try to write up something about a book I'm reading.  That's what this thread's for.)

Talking about religion is still more civil than talking about politics, though you're about as likely to change someone's opinion.
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"Clive [Barker]'s idea of a great time is to have a nightmare about a woman with three heads and no skin who flays your body with a pitchfork. To give you some idea, NIGHTBREED has over 200 pus monsters, including one guy with a crescent moonhead like the McDonald's commercial and a fat guy with snakes that pop out of his stomach and eat your face off, and these are the GOOD GUYS. These are the people we're supposed to LIKE."-Joe Bob on NIGHTBREED
BoyScoutKevin
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« Reply #1882 on: May 15, 2017, 06:46:49 PM »

Y-es!
And in the same mode as ere

Virginia Henley
A Woman of Passion
12-15 more fiction

Our heroine married and buried 4 of them . . . husbands --  An odd mix of both the historically correct and incorrect.

Incorrect
Difference in age from 1st husband. Fictionally: less than 2 decades. Factually: more than 2 decades.
Useless wild moorland. Not useless. You ran sheep on the wild moorland.
Sex is not all in a marriage, but part of marriage.
4 months in the Tower is not a long sentence. It is actually a short sentence. Some prisoners spent over half their life imprisoned in the Tower.

Correct
Age of legal sexual consent. 14 for girls. 12 for boys.
Though, the age of majority for both was 21, or when a couple was old enough to go off and live on their own, instead of living with his parents.
It was painful to lose one's spouse.
Girls got married, on the average, at an younger age than boys. Though, it was not unknown for boys to marry in their teen years or even pre-teen years.
Frances is the female version of the name. Francis is the male version of the name.

Next time: 1 more in this mode and some final thoughts.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #1883 on: May 15, 2017, 08:44:14 PM »

Hey, Lester, I think they want us to shut up about this for awhile!  Want to continue via PM, or drop it for now?   TeddyR
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #1884 on: May 15, 2017, 09:10:32 PM »

I feel like this round is done but thanks for the offer.  Cheers
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« Reply #1885 on: May 15, 2017, 11:09:32 PM »

Speaking of reading stuff...

Can anyone recommend any good "History like you were there" type books?  I mean, books that don't just tell you what happened, but they build it up like you're right there with the person.  Some examples like Isaac's Storm, Devil in The White City, Miracle and Massacres, and San Francisco Is Burning? 
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indianasmith
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« Reply #1886 on: May 16, 2017, 06:33:37 AM »

David McCullough's HARRY TRUMAN is one of the finest biographies I have read.
Doris Kearnes Goodwin's TEAM OF RIVALS is an outstanding book about Abraham Lincoln that I absolutely  loved.
And Candace Millard's RIVER OF DOUBT is an incredible true adventure tale about Theodore Roosevelt and his Amazon expedition.
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Pacman000
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« Reply #1887 on: May 16, 2017, 09:52:30 AM »

I've been reading Servants of the Wankh by Jack Vance
Quote
After his starship and crewmates are blown up, Adam Reith is marooned on a planet inhabited by four advanced, mutually hostile, alien species, the Chasch, Wankh, Dirdir and native Pnume, as well as various groups of humans. In his quest to return home, he acquires three human companions (as detailed in City of the Chasch): Traz Onmale, a taciturn teenage barbarian chieftain, Ankhe at afram Anacho, a flamboyant, fugitive Dirdirman, and Ylin-Ylan, a beautiful young Yao woman whom he rescued from a man-hating religious sect.

Ylin-Ylan persuades Reith, her lover, into taking her back to Cath. With her wealthy father's backing, Reith hopes to be able to build a spaceship. As the voyage progresses however, their relationship cools. Anacho explains that Yao society is extremely status conscious, and the closer they get to her homeland, the more Ylin-Ylan dreads being associated with (to her) gauche, uncouth companions. Her attempts to separate herself from them all fail disastrously. Finally, unable to bear the shame any longer, she takes refuge in awaile, a murderous rampage not uncommon among her people, which ends with her throwing herself into the sea.

Reith and his friends continue on to Cath, to notify Ylin-Ylan's father of her demise. They are coolly received, but are eventually given 50,000 sequins (the universal currency of Tschai) as a reward.

Unimpressed with Yao engineering, Reith recruits a crew from those who had worked for the Wankh, to try to steal a Wankh spaceship
From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servants_of_the_Wankh

Sounds interesting, but for the most part it's about people moving from place to place with Anacho describing the cultures of those places.   Not all that interesting, (My opinion.) I bought it because the cover had a cool alien-dinosaur creature, but the book has no such creature.



Doesn't that look cool? Ah well.

(Image from Wikipedia)
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indianasmith
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« Reply #1888 on: May 18, 2017, 09:00:11 PM »

I just finished THE STATE OF ISRAEL VS. ADOLF EICHMANN, by Hannah Yablonka.
I was hoping for a detailed account of the arrest, trial, and execution of the highest ranking Nazi war criminal apprehended since WWII.
Instead, what I found was a long, detailed historiography on how the trial impacted various segments of the Israeli population, from Holocaust survivors to teens born since the war.  Very little detail about the trial itself was given, to my disappointment.  The book wasn't badly written, it just wasn't what I had wanted to read.
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« Reply #1889 on: May 22, 2017, 01:57:57 PM »

Ye-es!
And in the same mode as ere.

Victoria Lamb
The Queen's Secret
1st novelist
1st in a trilogy

There are worst places than the Tower.
--As it was a high end jail for the well to do.
----One had some freedom outside one's cell within the walls.
----One had servants whose wages were paid by the state.
----One could have one's pets.
----One had furniture furnished by the state.
----One had a fuel and food subsidy from the state.

Like mother . . . like daughter -- Dance 'round the issues -- Astrology from superstition to science -- All men cheat on their wives . . . all women cheat on their husbands . . . not true then . . . not true now.

About women, by women, for women.
And what do you get. You get . . .

The double standard
What is unacceptable for a man is acceptable for a woman. What is acceptable for a woman is unacceptable for a man (1st)

The double untruth
Women are good. Men are bad (2nd)

When the female character(s) are primary, the male characters(s) are secondary. And though they often add to the story, they are oft ignored (3rd)

That may not be so bad, as the writers seem to have no or little understanding of the male psyche (4th)

And they may have little or no understanding of the male psyche, because they seemingly make little or no effort to try to understand the male psyche (5th)

Of course, there are exceptions, which we'll get to next time.

Next time: exceptions to the above.
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