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Author Topic: Epic Win: Victim Kills Would-Be Robber  (Read 20293 times)
ghouck
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2009, 07:55:44 PM »

Well, I think you're overlooking the ease with which a gun kills.  Sure there will always be murder, but how many more people might live if no gun is involved?  It's a lot harder to kill with your hands than with a gun.  

Yes, you are right, it is much easier to stop/kill an attacker/rapist/whatever with a gun than it is without. It's not just the number people that die, it's also WHO dies. People act as if criminals are timid little 85-lb weaklings that have to use a gun to accomplish their crime, watch any show on prisons and you'll see that 's not true, the majority of prisoners are larger than average. Take away all the guns, and they have the distinct advantage, not to mention the fact that most criminals are male. I hope we can agree that that is not a good thing.

I don't understand your complete bump over 200 years of history.  I was discussing the police then, not now.  I never said they were "seconds away..."  I have nothing to say about modern police responsiveness, tactics, or reliability.  There may indeed be "far less police now than there have been in the past"  but I was referring to the founding fathers, you know, as in the long past when there were no police, not say 1900, or the post war era, or whenever you think there may have been far more police.  I am merely offering an opinion about why the right to bear arms was included in the Bill of Rights.  Don't construe a point of view from my commentary; in my thought process, it is a starting point only.  In other words, don't stick me with your stale old argument.  


Because we live TODAY, not 200 years ago. . . Read your own posting, you stated that 200 years ago, guns were a necessary tool, then implied they are no longer by stating that the world is now much different. You stated that they were needed partially because there were no police, as if police are the answer. They are not, and history, RECENT history, as in, the time you and I live in, has proven that to be wrong, regardless of what happened 200 years ago.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 08:04:38 PM by ghouck » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2009, 08:43:02 PM »

The right to bear arms was included in the Constitution so that the citizenry could protect themselves against encroachments on their liberties by a tyrannical government as much as to defend themselves against criminals!  I do not trust my government enough - not even when good ol' george W. was in charge, much less our current socialist-in-chief - to let them have all the firepower.
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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2009, 09:11:48 PM »

Well, I think you're overlooking the ease with which a gun kills.  Sure there will always be murder, but how many more people might live if no gun is involved?  It's a lot harder to kill with your hands than with a gun. 

Yes, you are right, it is much easier to stop/kill an attacker/rapist/whatever with a gun than it is without. It's not just the number people that die, it's also WHO dies. People act as if criminals are timid little 85-lb weaklings that have to use a gun to accomplish their crime, watch any show on prisons and you'll see that 's not true, the majority of prisoners are larger than average. Take away all the guns, and they have the distinct advantage, not to mention the fact that most criminals are male. I hope we can agree that that is not a good thing.
Nope, not a good thing...  BounceGiggle  They're mostly bigger...?  You're sure?  Is that like knowing a chicken when you see one 'cause you saw it on TV?   Wink  Drink

I don't understand your complete bump over 200 years of history.  I was discussing the police then, not now.  I never said they were "seconds away..."  I have nothing to say about modern police responsiveness, tactics, or reliability.  There may indeed be "far less police now than there have been in the past"  but I was referring to the founding fathers, you know, as in the long past when there were no police, not say 1900, or the post war era, or whenever you think there may have been far more police.  I am merely offering an opinion about why the right to bear arms was included in the Bill of Rights.  Don't construe a point of view from my commentary; in my thought process, it is a starting point only.  In other words, don't stick me with your stale old argument. 
Because we live TODAY, not 200 years ago. . . Read your own posting, you stated that 200 years ago, guns were a necessary tool, then implied they are no longer by stating that the world is now much different. You stated that they were needed partially because there were no police, as if police are the answer. They are not, and history, RECENT history, as in, the time you and I live in, has proven that to be wrong, regardless of what happened 200 years ago.
Well, I did indeed state that guns were a necessary tool, sure, to fight the British, remember British search and seizure practices which greatly sensitized colonists to firearm control. 

You want an argument and I don't.  I don't know that we actually disagree, but we were certainly not discussing the same topic.  I think what I'm trying to do is cover the founding fathers' asses because I have so much faith in the American system.   Smile

Oh, and you don't think a gun can give a punk the nerve? 
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ghouck
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2009, 09:40:51 PM »

Nope, not a good thing...  BounceGiggle  They're mostly bigger...?  You're sure?  Is that like knowing a chicken when you see one 'cause you saw it on TV?   Wink  Drink

No, , Because I WORK IN A PRISON. I was telling YOU to look at them on TV so maybe you would know who we were talking about. .  Lookingup Even without, I'm sure you're not trying to argue against the fact that most criminals are MALE. And for the record, those shows on prisons that show a bunch of big, muscled-up thugs are fairly accurate. I'm 6'1 ~190 lbs and the majority of the guys where I work, I'd say 80% are guys I wouldn't even think about going against even on my best day.

I don't understand your complete bump over 200 years of history.  I was discussing the police then, not now.  I never said they were "seconds away..."  I have nothing to say about modern police responsiveness, tactics, or reliability.  There may indeed be "far less police now than there have been in the past"  but I was referring to the founding fathers, you know, as in the long past when there were no police, not say 1900, or the post war era, or whenever you think there may have been far more police.  I am merely offering an opinion about why the right to bear arms was included in the Bill of Rights.  Don't construe a point of view from my commentary; in my thought process, it is a starting point only.  In other words, don't stick me with your stale old argument.  
Because we live TODAY, not 200 years ago. . . Read your own posting, you stated that 200 years ago, guns were a necessary tool, then implied they are no longer by stating that the world is now much different. You stated that they were needed partially because there were no police, as if police are the answer. They are not, and history, RECENT history, as in, the time you and I live in, has proven that to be wrong, regardless of what happened 200 years ago.
Well, I did indeed state that guns were a necessary tool, sure, to fight the British, remember British search and seizure practices which greatly sensitized colonists to firearm control.  

You want an argument and I don't.  I don't know that we actually disagree, but we were certainly not discussing the same topic.  I think what I'm trying to do is cover the founding fathers' asses because I have so much faith in the American system.   Smile

Oh, and you don't think a gun can give a punk the nerve?  

Just when exactly did I say that? I have no doubt that some punks get their nerve up by having a gun. I also think many of those people wouldn't NEED to get their nerve up if they KNEW whoever they were going against with a knife or screwdriver had no chance of having a gun. I'm not under any illusions here. Whoever said "An armed society is a polite society" was full of hot air. BUT, and armed society is no less polite that a totally unarmed society, it goes both ways.

My point is that you say removal of handguns and assault rifles will cause deaths to go down. Would this be because CRIME would go down? Would this be because robbers/rapists/whatever do LESS, or because people just have to give in to them? How many of those supposed lives that are save go on to rape or rob another person? Or would it even happen at all? How many MORE crimes would be committed because some 'punk' only needed a knife to, as you say, "get his nerve up"?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 09:54:26 PM by ghouck » Logged

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Allhallowsday
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2009, 10:12:27 PM »

Nope, not a good thing...  BounceGiggle  They're mostly bigger...?  You're sure?  Is that like knowing a chicken when you see one 'cause you saw it on TV?   Wink  Drink
No, , Because I WORK IN A PRISON. I was telling YOU to look at them on TV so maybe you would know who we were talking about. .  Lookingup
Who's "we"...?  Only you and I are engaged in this exchange.  I have many law enforcement personnel in my family, so I've had enough time to make up my own mind about cops, not to mention my personal experience, and I have several friends who work in prisons.  I don't doubt your word, but it sure sounded humorous.  And there are... how many prisons in the USA? 

Even without, I'm sure you're not trying to argue against the fact that most criminals are MALE. And for the record, those shows on prisons that show a bunch of big, muscled-up thugs are fairly accurate. I'm 6'1 ~190 lbs and the majority of the guys where I work, I'd say 80% are guys I wouldn't even think about going against even on my best day.
I think I could take you.  I'm about the same height, but may weigh 5 lbs less...  TongueOut

...Just when exactly did I say that? I have no doubt that some punks get their nerve up by having a gun. I also think many of those people wouldn't NEED to get their nerve up if they KNEW whoever they were going against with a knife or screwdriver had no chance of having a gun. I'm not under any illusions here. Whoever said "An armed society is a polite society" was full of hot air. BUT, and armed society is no less polite that a totally unarmed society, it goes both ways.

My point is that you say removal of handguns and assault rifles will cause deaths to go down. Would this be because CRIME would go down? Would this be because robbers/rapists/whatever do LESS, or because people just have to give in to them? How many of those supposed lives that are save go on to rape or rob another person? Or would it even happen at all? How many MORE crimes would be committed because some 'punk' only needed a knife to, as you say, "get his nerve up"?

I didn't say you said anything.  This is obviously a hot topic for you.  Working in a prison, that's understandable. 
I believe victims of crime will always exist, regardless of guns. 
I suppose there are situations where a crime victim has saved him or herself because they possessed a firearm.  I also wonder how many of these instances where death occurred was deadly force necessary?  More importantly, how often is a victim saved from a crime because they happened to possess a firearm?  I will not take up the old debate about every citizen armed like the Wild West.  Morally, I believe guns are evil.   
« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 10:23:24 PM by Allhallowsday » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2009, 10:21:20 PM »

This reminds me of ...

Small | Large
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AndyC
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2009, 11:12:24 PM »

The problem is that in spite of any effort to eliminate guns, they will never be impossible to obtain by illegal means. It's the same with anything illegal - if somebody wants it, and has the resources, it is available. If guns are banned somewhere, they'll be smuggled from somewhere else. If they can't be purchased over the counter, someone will be willing to sell them under the table. And if every gun was destroyed and all legitimate manufacturers shut down, there will be illegal machine shops turning out firearms of varying accuracy and user safety, with none of the controls currently in place. Prohibition is a fine example - banning booze just made a few people rich, either smuggling the stuff or making it themselves, and the end users got everything from high-quality liquor to bathtub gin and wood alcohol, depending on the source. Meanwhile, legitimate brewers and distillers were decimated.

Laws only work on the law-abiding. Criminals, by definition, break laws. Disarming the law-abiding public might prevent accidents and crimes of passion, but it won't take guns out of the hands of criminals.

And, I have to say, an incident like this one, with one robber killed and the other wounded and possibly facing a murder charge, should make a few people think twice before trying the same thing. I've never really agreed with the advice to cooperate and hand over your money. It might be safer for you in the short term, but I think it encourages criminals in the long run. If they think there might be some risk involved, that they might have to earn their money, armed robbery is going to seem less attractive. Stories of crooks picking the wrong guy to attack ought to be played up for all they're worth.
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2009, 11:13:53 PM »

I suppose there are situations where a crime victim has saved him or herself because they possessed a firearm.


A WHOLE LOT of situations like that exist.  Thousands a year, in fact.

Quote
More importantly, how often is a victim saved from a crime because they happened to possess a firearm?


Here is a blog that keeps track of news stories involving civilian self-defense with firearms.  These are all news stories published by the media.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

Quote
I also wonder how many of these instances where death occurred was deadly force necessary?


How do you define necessary?

Quote
Morally, I believe guns are evil.


A gun is a lump of metal and plastic.  It cannot be good or evil.  Some people are evil, and will use any tool available to them for evil.
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ghouck
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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2009, 12:08:59 AM »

The whole thing boils down to this: If there are no guns, criminals will use something else, weather it be a knife, a baseball bat, or just their own sheer size. Guns make it much easier for people to level the playing field. Put a 90 year old woman with a gun against a 20 year old male with a gun, and the odds are much better for her than the 0% chance she has if they were just going to go at it hand-to-hand. The fact is that anything a person does to defend themselves is REACTIVE, so that person is already at a disadvantage EVEN if all other things are equal, which they rarely are, attackers don't look for a TOUGH fight, they look for an EASY one more often than not.

The problem is that outright gun control just makes things worse by the immediate result being innocent people going unarmed, where what SHOULD be focused on is getting and keeping the guns out of the WRONG hands. One problem is that we HAVE laws that are supposed to do this, and even those laws are not enough, but are sparsely enforced it seems. Our system has gotten lazy, rather than inflict a 10-year sentence on a felon that has a gun, they usually (in Alaska anyways) just violate his parole, which can easily turn into an in-and-out, there's less paperwork that way.

The way I believe it should be is this:

You commit a violent crime or a sex crime, you don't get to use, own, possess, or in any way have a firearm again. You do, 10 - 20 years in prison, life the second time just for HAVING it, life if you used it in a crime. EVERY crime should have a 10-year automatic aggrivator for possessing a gun during it's commission. (except common traffic infractions). There are also some 'red flag' crimes that more often than not indicate bad things, like cruelty to animals, road rage situations.

You get a DWI or other non-violent crime, there should be a period that you can't possess one afterward. I know DWI isn't a violent crime, but it shows extreme irresponsibility.

If someone gets a T.O.P. against you, and it is deemed necessary, same thing, no firearms for some period of time.

You get caught possessing, making, selling, or using hard drugs (Heroin, Coke, Meth, all the violence-inducing drugs), same thing, no weapons for some period of time no matter the quantity, forever if the amount constitutes a felony. Even if the person pleads down to a misdemeanor, the gun restrictions should stay.

They should enforce the laws making it illegal to knowingly make a gun available to a felon, so when a felon gets pulled over he can't say the gun between the seats is his passenger's and dodge the law.

My point of view is that people often put themselves into bad positions. If a person attacks your family and you need to use deadly force, that's NOT YOUR FAULT, it's THEIRS. It sucks, and it's sad to see someone die, but in the end everybody dies eventually. We seem to be stuck in this trying to be politically correct mode where everyone is equal. NO, we are BORN equal, the rest is up to us. I believe there are people out there that because of their own actions, do not deserve to live as much as some others. That is why we have war, that is why some places have a death penalty, and that is why people have the right to defend themselves. Truth be told, Jeffery Dahlmer's life wasn't as valuable as many other people's, because he chose to do horrible things, things other people would never do.
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« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2009, 02:33:48 AM »

Epic win?   Buggedout  "Robbery victim"?  Carrying a gun...  All of these young men under 25, all carrying their own guns...?  I don't think this story is what it has been characterized as.  "The robbery victim has never been convicted of a crime..."   Lookingup

I'm not sure I understand the problem...  Would you rather they have called him an "attempted robbery victim"?  But if you're thinking this may be gang related or something...  I'd say that is plausible. 

Anyway, Wisconsin is one of only two states (the other is Illinois) to have no form of concealed carry.  Apparently, the state does allow open carry, I'm not sure if Milwaukee law would allow it though.  In any case, the would-be robbery victim may have been on someone else's private property, or had other extenuating circumstances. 
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« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2009, 03:53:38 AM »

Its like the wild, wild west. yes, i am a proponent of gun control.  Smile

That's a good way to disarm all the law abiding people.
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BTM
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2009, 03:55:38 AM »


I've been mugged several times, every time the person had a knife, every time it was a knife anyone could buy at Wal-mart. Once the guy's intent was to kill me no matter what, had I not been faster, I would have died. A slower person could have only survived with a gun the way I see it.


Damn, where do you live man?  Maybe I should avoid that area...

Glad to hear you're okay though! 
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2009, 11:36:39 AM »

When I say gun control thats what i mean, Im not saying outlaw them. Control the types and number of guns on the streets. No one needs an AK47.

Guns are too easy to get and a lot of the people getting them are uneducated about gun safety or have mental issues and should not have a gun period. I have met several people who i would call "gun nuts" and not a single one of them should have had 1 gun much less dozens.

Guns have become such an acceptable part of our lives that most dont blink when a man straps a gun to his leg and goes to where the President is speaking, in high school when someone said we will settle it after school you could count on a fist fight, not now... now they get shot.

Parents are not keeping their guns away from children and they are blowing each others heads off..   This one.. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27399337/Education
Quote
WESTFIELD, Mass. - An 8-year-old boy died after accidentally shooting himself in the head while firing an Uzi submachine gun under adult supervision at a gun fair
.  and more recently..http://hubpages.com/hub/FATHER-CHARGED-AFTER-BOY-DIES-FROM-SELF-INFLICTED-GUN-SHOT
Quote
Police said the 5-year-old was in his father’s car about 8:45 p.m. Monday while waiting in a Walgreens drive-through lane at Durango Drive and Warm Springs Road.

After he found a gun in the car, the boy sustained a single gunshot wound to the head.
  my point is people like this idiot should not have had a gun.
I dont have a problem with responsible gun owners i have a problem with how easy it is for any half wit with little money to purchase a gun.
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2009, 02:18:02 PM »

No one needs an AK47.


Why not?

Quote
Guns are too easy to get and a lot of the people getting them are uneducated about gun safety or have mental issues and should not have a gun period. I have met several people who i would call "gun nuts" and not a single one of them should have had 1 gun much less dozens.


What firearms experience and training do you have that you can declare someone unfit to have a gun?

Quote
Guns have become such an acceptable part of our lives that most dont blink when a man straps a gun to his leg and goes to where the President is speaking


If he intended to shoot the President, I don't think he'd carry the gun there in plain sight.

Quote
Parents are not keeping their guns away from children and they are blowing each others heads off..


More children drown in pools than shoot themselves.

You shouldn't keep guns away from children.  If you have guns in the home, your children should be trained to handle them safely.  Like this little tyke, here ...

http://www.break.com/index/little-kid-at-a-shooting-range.html

He's far less likely to have a gun-related accident than a kid who's never been trained.


Quote
I dont have a problem with responsible gun owners i have a problem with how easy it is for any half wit with little money to purchase a gun.


But who defines what a responsible gun owner is?  Is it the guy who keeps his guns locked in a safe and unloaded at all times so no one can get to them?  Is it the guy who keeps his guns loaded, ready, and within reach at all times in case of a home invasion scenario?
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2009, 02:30:29 PM »

What a smartass you turned out to be.  You know what an AK-47 was designed and is used for.  It is not a sporting rifle. 

Epic win?   Buggedout  "Robbery victim"?  Carrying a gun...  All of these young men under 25, all carrying their own guns...?  I don't think this story is what it has been characterized as.  "The robbery victim has never been convicted of a crime..."   Lookingup
I'm not sure I understand the problem...  Would you rather they have called him an "attempted robbery victim"?  But if you're thinking this may be gang related or something...  I'd say that is plausible. 
Sure, I agree that's plausible, for one scenario.  I think there's much hypocrisy at the heart of American culture, including political correctness in news reporting.   

Quote
Morally, I believe guns are evil.
A gun is a lump of metal and plastic.  It cannot be good or evil.  Some people are evil, and will use any tool available to them for evil.
I thought, my friend, you were above mincing words... you know what I meant. 
So, you like to play with guns?  Good for you!  It's your right.  However, I don't really believe any of your assertions.  But, to each his own. 
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 02:43:04 PM by Allhallowsday » Logged

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