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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Afghanistan « previous next »
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Author Topic: Afghanistan  (Read 3339 times)
lester1/2jr
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« on: September 25, 2009, 09:53:09 AM »

4 options


      I think this will be at least slightly less controversial than an Iraq war thread, or what one would have been a few years back.

    I'm not trying to start some s**t, I'm actually curious as to what people think we should do.  on the one hand,  there's no doubt we could improve things at least temporarily with a massive "surge".  On the other hand, we've been there since 2001!  Wecan't stay forever.

I'm for leaving
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Rev. Powell
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2009, 12:46:13 PM »

I'm for option 3 or 4.  It's a strategic military decision so I won't pretend to know how many troops are needed.  If the Taliban regained control of Afghanistan and allowed Al-Quaeda a chance to rebuild, all the blood and treasure we spent would be in vain. 

Unfortunately, Iraq complicated the issue.  Who knows what would have happened if we had been able to focus on Afghanistan, as we should have, instead of dividing our resources in two separate theaters?
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2009, 12:54:54 PM »

I tend to agree with Rev in many ways, but I also question the accuracy of info I have access to. I never get the feeling that I get anything close to a complete and honest truth from American media.
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2009, 01:35:45 PM »

History leaves me skittish regarding Afghanistan.

Ghengis Khan could not take and hold Afghanistan.

Alexander the Great could not take and hold Afghanistan.

The British at their peak could not take and hold Afghanistan.

The Soviets could not take and hold Afghanistan. 
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2009, 04:08:43 PM »

Not even the Afgahns could could take Afghanastan.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2009, 06:14:00 PM »

It's a tough call, either way.  I am in that 33% that still thinks going into Iraq was the right thing to do, and I thank God that Bush pretty much won that war before Obama could come in and throw away everything our boys fought and died for . . .

Afghanistan is a much tougher proposition.  The bald fact of the matter is that fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with a progressive, Western-style democracy.  I mean, these are the barbarians that stone their daughters to death for getting raped and behead anyone who tries to convert away from their stone age nightmare of a religion!  But walking away is not an option - that would simply leave the place a greater breeding ground for terrorism than it already is, and paint a target on every U.S. soldier serving abroad.

What's called for here is ruthlessness, determination, and strength - something our new President has shown very little of so far.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2009, 09:29:25 AM »

indianismith- so you don't like obama.  duly noted.



here is a view  from fancy pants type "4th generation warfare" type guy William S Lind.

He has a number of interesting thoughts, though as you can see from the website name they tend to go in a certain direction.  

His argument focuses aronud the idea that afghanistan doesn't have a working state, democractic, totalitarian or other.  Saudi Arabai isn't a democracy , but they have a state.

His controversial suggestion is to allow the taliban to be part of a power sharing sort of government.  wouldn't that mean al queda wil be back?  no , says lind, because they are sitting pretty in Pakistan.


lind sums up the "leaked" war report thusly

""If you donít give us more troops, we will fail. But you shouldnít give us more troops unless we adopt a new strategy, which we donít have. And even if you do give us the troops we want for the new strategy we havenít got, they will not be enough to achieve success."


« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 09:35:50 AM by lester1/2jr » Logged

Javakoala
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2009, 10:47:37 AM »

Imma let you finish, but....

Joking aside, how can I take this article seriously when he says:

"Russia's withdrawal of 1988-89 led to the collapse of the Soviet Empire. What would a U.S. withdrawal do to the American Empire?"

As if THAT was the only thing that changed things in Russia.  We've pulled out before, and those we left behind got screwed. And our society didn't collapse.  It won't now. Well, not over THIS.

Unless we intend to fully occupy and utterly control any piece of foreign land, someone will always come in behind us and try to take charge.  We have enough issues here that the idea of fully occupying a foreign country is a bit silly.  If the people who live there aren't able to keep anyone, including us, from occupying their land, well, tough s**t.  But make it clear that whoever occupies that land to not interfere with the USA or make threats against us or our allies.  Once is a warning, and the second time, we should leave a huge bloody footprint that will enable someone else to come in and see what THEY can do with that country.
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ER
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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2009, 07:59:56 PM »

Small | Large


This great man tried to warn us, and he was right. I think the United States has long since reached the point where if we follow the money---in this case the MIC but also big drug companies, big oil, etc.---we are forced to see that the powers behind the visible leaders have become so strong that this country can no longer go for any length of time without involvement in conflict somewhere, and I think it has realistically gone beyond any President's ability to change this. I say this by way of stating that US presence in Afghanistan may or may not go on for the foreseeable future but other conflicts will arise, only the location will be different, the people getting rich off the war will be the same. I admire most of the people I've met who serve in our military and for that reason have grown very tired of seeing them misused. As for my opinion of Afghanistan, the goals the United States has set are probably hopelessly unrealistic ones and whenever western troops leave that basket case nation, things will return to the way they have been throughout most of recorded history, with regional warlords and drug lords and religious fanatics dividing the nation among them, and the poor, women, "deviants" of all stripe will suffer. I have a close friend whose stepbrother recently deployed for Afghanistan on his second tour there (this after one in Iraq in 2003-2004). He volunteered to be there, he is more or less a career soldier who loves the army, but his opinion is to pull American forces out immediately because the mission just cannot be accomplished. I respect his opinion and have to go with him on that.

But then again: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113238321
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 07:01:52 AM by ER » Logged

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 10:18:01 AM »

ER-  I agree.

Alan Grayson

current dem loud mouth point man Alan Grayson says it best here:  we should just leave people alone, that's the best foreign policy.

He makes the point that basically there is no afghanistan.  It's an area that people call afghanistan but it's not a country, more of a collection of different groups all of whom call themselves by those names no afghanis.

scroll down a little for the transcript/ vid.  best argument I've heard yet
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3mnkids
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 11:28:33 AM »

Its time to abandon the failed bush administration way of doing things. Lets get the hell out.
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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 04:19:17 PM »

I'll come out and say it.

Radicalized Islam (which accounts for most Muslims in the Middle East and Europe now) is the greatest evil the world has faced in the modern age.  Their goal is the forcible conversion of the entire planet to their faith, and with Saudi oil money behind it, they come closer to achieving that goal every year.

This is a culture that is determined to destroy everything Western Civilization has tried to build since Pericles ruled Athens.  They do not believe in democracy.  They do not believe in freedom of speech.  They do not believe in freedom of religion.  They do not believe in women's rights.  They do not believe in a free press. They do not believe in tolerance.  They believe in Allah, and they believe in jihad.  Their proverb is "First comes Saturday, then comes Sunday!"  By which they mean, first they destroy the Jews, then they destroy the Christians.  And by Christians, they mean all non-Islamic Westerners, whether they ever darken the door of a church or not.

   They are taking over Europe by sheer demographics.  Ethnic Europeans are having, on average, slightly more than one child per couple.  Muslim immigrants - many of them more radical than their Middle Eastern counterparts - are having six children per couple.  As their percentage of the population increases, so will their demands for "accommodations" for their faith.  How long before Sharia Law rules in London, Denmark, Norway, and St. Petersburg?  It may be within our lifetimes.

  They will tell you "Islam is a religion of peace."  It is not.  Islam does not mean "peace" but "surrender".  The Western world has two choices - surrender or resistance.
 Resistance is hard.  Resistance means ongoing war.  Resistance means being labelled as cruel and intolerant.  Resistance means suffering  terrorist attacks on a regular basis.  Resistance also means being stuck in hell holes like Afghantstant for the foreseeable future.  But resistance is the only way that the freedoms we cherish will be preserved.

I don't expect any applause for pointing this out.  It is an ugly truth, and many peplple would prefer not to hear it.  But I feel I have to give the warning.  The future is fraught with conflict.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 04:58:15 PM »

indianasmith-   I'm going to be brutally honest with you:  that was a very tired rehashing of alot of the type of paranoia that they used to get us to invade iraq.

1.  muslims don't want to take over our countries. they want us out of THEIR countries.

2.  muslims aren't taking over America or Europe.  Europe has massive welfare state that has drawn a ton of 3rd world immigrants.  they aren't coming to europe to turn it into a muslim state.  if they did, they are doing a pretty bad job of it as they are very under represented in the big companies and governments of these countries.  virtually every other ethnic group has higher representations in these areas.


"How long before Sharia Law rules in London, Denmark, Norway, and St. Petersburg?  It may be within our lifetimes."

LePen and co have been saying this since forever to get votes.  St Petersberg??  russia?  



Quote
Resistance is hard.  Resistance means ongoing war.

see your belief in this stuff has turned you into a trotsky-ite.  the perpetual revolution.

this is no different than the global warming alarmism, it's an excuse for the government to grab more power and more of our tax dollars.


Quote
Resistance also means being stuck in hell holes like Afghantstant for the foreseeable future.

even if you believe all this stuff you believe about afghanistan, this makes no sense.

how is staying in afghanistan even HELPING the alleged war on terror?  it simply drains us of more blood and treasure and makes us weaker.


All I can say is a fool and his money are soon parted. you've bought into the neo con spiel about muslim domination hook line and sinker. enough so that you are willing to forfeit your normal conservative take on things and give the government everything and everyone it needs to fight the war on terror.


You should really go and talk to some muslims and see what they have to say.  I think it would give you alot of persepctive on this issue.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 05:02:00 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

indianasmith
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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 05:26:04 PM »

The only problem with talking to Muslims is that their faith teaches them that lying to an infidel is not only not a sin, it is actually a virtuous act if it benefits Islam!

You are wrong.  The goal of Islam is and always has been the forcible conversion of the world.  Muhammad was a man of the sword.  He put his enemies to death and forced the surrender of the city of Mecca with an army of 10,000 at his back.  The final suras of the Q'uran, given out shortly before his death, contravened his earlier statements of tolerance and called for perpetual war against the infidel.

It is not a matter of liberal versus conservative or Christian versus agnostic.  To the devout Muslim, the world is divided into two halve:  "Dar Al Islam" - the abode of Islam - and "Dar al Jihad" - the abode of war.

I am not saying that there are not peaceful, progressive Mulsims.  I have known a few,  but they are largely irrelevant because the fanatical, jihadist Muslims are in the driver's seat.  Did you know that the departments of "Middle Eastern Studies" in virtually every major university in American are funded by Saudi oil money and staffed by "academics" who spend their lecture time justifying Palestinian terrorism, denouncing Israel, and condemning U.S. policy and society?

I know that you hate Israel and would just as soon it be gone.  But there is only one historic homeland of the Jewish people in the whole world, and that is in Israel.  They are a beacon of light and civilization in the midst of some of the wold's most brutal, repressive, and backwards countries.  Their standard of living and open society are a daily reproach to the barbaric Arabs who surround them and call daily for their exetrmination.  But the Jews were living in that land  and building their civilization there 1700 years before Muhammad was born.  Israel is their historic home, and they have a right to live there.

I relize you will never agree.

But I am telling  you the problem is Islam itself!  It holds that whole region enslaved to the dark ages!
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ER
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 05:43:27 PM »

I was casually discussing global realpolitik with a friend of mine the other day who said (as close to a direct quote as memory serves), "It's time for a Final Solution to the Islamic problem."

The great irony is my friend is a Jew.

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