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Doggett
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« on: May 27, 2010, 02:24:58 PM »

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/05/26/american-citizen-detained-threatened-with-deportation/

This is scary stuff...



« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 02:27:40 PM by Doggett » Logged

                                             

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trekgeezer
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 07:43:44 AM »



Your right my friend, it is very scary stuff and often makes me wonder what kind of a country the US is becoming.    Do me favor and don't paint us all with the same brush.
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Doggett
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 07:48:19 AM »



Your right my friend, it is very scary stuff and often makes me wonder what kind of a country the US is becoming.    Do me favor and don't paint us all with the same brush.



I wouldn't do that.  Smile

You lot here are fine people.  Thumbup
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 08:51:14 AM »

arizona is under siege from the drug cartels granted it is americas fault for buying so many drugs but there are alot of scary people involved in that whle thing and Arizona is right on the border. it's a complicated issue
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 12:14:51 PM »

arizona is under siege from the drug cartels granted it is americas fault for buying so many drugs but there are alot of scary people involved in that whle thing and Arizona is right on the border. it's a complicated issue

Well, that's the rhetoric, but it's not true.

I live in Arizona, and the sad truth is that if you want to get elected in this state, you have to come up with a new way to hassle "illegal immigrants." SB 1070, the law in question, was put together by racists and promoted by lazy, scapegoating politicians.

The law, as written, makes it illegal to be in the country illegally. Yes, it makes an already illegal thing more illegal. The new wrinkle it adds is that if a police officer has a "reasonable suspicion" that a person is in the country illegally, they are required to ask them for documentation.

The definition of "reasonable suspicion" is studiously ignored by all those in favor of the bill. Easy to see why, since the only tool available is racial profiling. The bill requires police to use racial profiling. Sick stuff.

It should be noted that many police departments in Arizona were against the bill. First, the bill itself is redundant. Being an illegal immigrants is by definition illegal. Second, the bill proposes no new funding for the substantial increase in the prison population of both the rightfully and wrongfully accused. Third, it just doesn't provide any meaningful additions to its supposed goal, the capture of illegal immigrants.

What it will provide, is many wonderful cases like the link Doggett posted. People are always willing to trade away the rights of others, while forgetting that their own rights are included. In this case, the right of existing in your own country without papers has now been stripped from you. That the laws targets only the brown-skinned population of the state is despicable.
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El Misfit
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 12:29:09 PM »

arizona is under siege from the drug cartels granted it is americas fault for buying so many drugs but there are alot of scary people involved in that whle thing and Arizona is right on the border. it's a complicated issue

 The new wrinkle it adds is that if a police officer has a "reasonable suspicion" that a person is in the country illegally, they are required to ask them for documentation.

The definition of "reasonable suspicion" is studiously ignored by all those in favor of the bill. Easy to see why, since the only tool available is racial profiling. The bill requires police to use racial profiling.

but you see, this is going to target the Civil Rights law, and how a person with even documents are still going to be targeted by their skin. What about the LIGHT skinned illegal immigrants, what do ya do there?
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yeah no.
ulthar
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 12:55:20 PM »



The law, as written, makes it illegal to be in the country illegally. Yes, it makes an already illegal thing more illegal. The new wrinkle it adds is that if a police officer has a "reasonable suspicion" that a person is in the country illegally, they are required to ask them for documentation.

The definition of "reasonable suspicion" is studiously ignored by all those in favor of the bill. Easy to see why, since the only tool available is racial profiling. The bill requires police to use racial profiling. Sick stuff.



I'm not sure if you are implicitly equating the terminology "reasonable suspicion" with either profiling or some other potential wrong-doing by the police.  I don't want to make such an assumption.

But as a point of clarification and for completeness, the legal concept of "Reasonable Suspicion" is well established doctrine in Law Enforcement and criminal jurisprudence.  This is based on case law (Terry v Ohio) and has long reach in search and seizure practices for police.  The so-called "Terry Stop" is an accepted (by the court) push against the 4th Amendment even in situations that the standard of "Probable Cause" is not met.

One of the qualifiers, however, is that it is Reasonable ARTICULABLE Suspicion - an officer has to be able to articulate specifics of his suspicion at the time of the stop (he cannot use facts learned later, for example).  "He's a black man in a white neighborhood" will probably not be judged reasonable by the court, but "he's a black man in a white neighborhood peering in a living room window with a crow-bar in his hand" might be.

Note this is for and INVESTIGATIVE STOP (which is technically still a seizure), not ARREST.  Probable cause is still required for arrest.

If an officer thus has reasonable articulable suspicion to stop a subject, any subject, for an investigative stop and he subsequently learns that a crime is/probably has been committed and probably by THIS subject, he has probable cause for an arrest.  Such an arrest will likely be upheld by the court unless some other issue exists.

NONE of this is granted by THIS Arizona Immigration Law.  It is long established case law and every cop in the country knows this (or should - it is basic).

If a law REQUIRES a cop to take a certain action, that's morally bad law.  But we have long accepted this in other areas, so I don't really care for the whining about it now.  See Domestic Violence Laws, DUI Laws and a few others.  This door was opened a LONG time ago.  The only difference is WHAT action are lawmakers applying it to.

Do the words "slippery slope" come to mind?  I often wonder if the folks barking about this law screamed just as loudly when mandatory arrest statutes popped up for other CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES just because THEY were the political hot-button issue of the day.
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« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2010, 12:42:11 AM »

Great post, ulthar.

I'm not attacking "reasonable suspicion" as a legal concept. As you demonstrated, it's a well-established doctrine. What I should have said was "establishing reasonable suspicion of being an illegal immigrant."

If a driver was swerving all over the road, an officer would have reasonable suspicion to pull-over the driver to see if they were drunk. That's a bit of a cut-and-dry example.

However, how do you establish reasonable suspicion that somebody is in the country illegally? In Arizona, the main characteristics would be that they speak with a Hispanic accent (or speak only Spanish) and also look Hispanic. That's where the racial profiling arises. In this country, there are many Hispanics who are also legal citizens. SB 1070, an irresponsible blanket law, will also target them.

Also, as Bull said, how does this apply to illegal immigrants who don't fit this Hispanic mold?

I'll have to reread the law before I discuss it anymore, which I will. In the actual field, I don't think this law is good for anything other than establishing racial profiling as a legitimate police procedure.

I do not like that at all.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2010, 08:54:02 AM »

I feel like Arizona is not allowed to vote in mexican elections, so it's not really fair for them to be subject to the results of that governments obvious incompetence. Dealing with our own governments incompetence is more than enough   (the figleaf of "representation" of two identical corporate funded parties doesn't make it any easier) another nation foisting it's problems on them and expecting them to stand for it in the name of multiculturalism or somehting is ridiculous.
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ulthar
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« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2010, 09:21:58 AM »


I'm not attacking "reasonable suspicion" as a legal concept. As you demonstrated, it's a well-established doctrine. What I should have said was "establishing reasonable suspicion of being an illegal immigrant."

If a driver was swerving all over the road, an officer would have reasonable suspicion to pull-over the driver to see if they were drunk. That's a bit of a cut-and-dry example.

However, how do you establish reasonable suspicion that somebody is in the country illegally? In Arizona, the main characteristics would be that they speak with a Hispanic accent (or speak only Spanish) and also look Hispanic. That's where the racial profiling arises. In this country, there are many Hispanics who are also legal citizens. SB 1070, an irresponsible blanket law, will also target them.



Great discussion, Mofo.  Thanks.

Determining what is and is not reasonable articulable suspicion is ALWAYS the rub, and I can see how it is very slippery in this context.

However,  I just read (for the first time) the text of Arizona SB 1070 (pdf warning) and saw NOTHING in there that gives explicit right for Law Enforcement to 'racially profile.'

Now, to me, the guts of the matter distill down to Section 11-1051, Paragraph B, which begins:

Quote

For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person. 



(emphasis mine)

Now, the debate we can have is just how to interpret this.  Upon my first reading, I read this as "I have to already have to have a lawful contact with the person, THEN one of my articulable facts is that they are an illegal alien."  In other words, I initially took this to mean that I have to follow existing case law and precedent in MAKING an investigative stop.  Once the investigative stop occurs, THEN I can act on 'reasonable suspicion' that the person I am talking to is an illegal alien.

In other words, as a Law Enforcement Officer, I (personally) would NOT interpret this to mean I can see someone I think "looks Hispanic," make the leap they are an illegal and stop them to investigate.  There is no explicit language giving me that right, just as I could find no language that REQUIRES me to make an arrest (only language that gives the right to make an arrest).

On second reading, I could certainly see how this paragraph could be interpreted differently.   Certainly, there are police officers that push on the 4th Amendment pretty hard.  We have to hope that the court sorts it out.

Further, the premise of the article that started this thread is a crock if it is being enforced under 1070.  The law explicitly exempts from punishments US Citizens OR people holding documentation from the Federal Government authorizing them to be in the US.  See:

Section 11-1051, Paragraph J
Section 13-1509, Paragraph F

There is NO WAY this law is giving Arizona the right to deport a US Citizen.  That article was crap, anyway...I got a headache from the lack of grammar.

Quote

Also, as Bull said, how does this apply to illegal immigrants who don't fit this Hispanic mold?



Well, as written and as *I* interpret it, there is nothing in the law that limits investigation to Hispanics.  HIspanic is not even mentioned in the law.  So, if I see a Japanese person doing something I deem suspicious, I can investigate him.  Under this law, *IF* I then get a suspicion he's an illegal, I then have the right to further dig into his immigration status.  In other words, 1070 does not single out Hispanics or 'brown people' or any other physical characteristic.

Quote

I'll have to reread the law before I discuss it anymore, which I will. In the actual field, I don't think this law is good for anything other than establishing racial profiling as a legitimate police procedure.

I do not like that at all.



I would not like that at all, either...if that's where it goes.

However, it MAY not go that route.  How a law is put into practice is hard to predict.  I don't know that the intent by the law makers is to establish racial profiling as legit (you are much closer to it than I and therefore better to judge that), but even if that IS their intent, I find it hard to believe it will go that far.  I could, of course be wrong - in today's climate of fear mongering and reactionism, anything can happen.  But the wording of THIS particular statute does not establish racial profiling in an explicit, overt way.

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3mnkids
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« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2010, 09:46:48 AM »

arizona is under siege from the drug cartels granted it is americas fault for buying so many drugs but there are alot of scary people involved in that whle thing and Arizona is right on the border. it's a complicated issue

Well, that's the rhetoric, but it's not true.

I live in Arizona, and the sad truth is that if you want to get elected in this state, you have to come up with a new way to hassle "illegal immigrants." SB 1070, the law in question, was put together by racists and promoted by lazy, scapegoating politicians.

The law, as written, makes it illegal to be in the country illegally. Yes, it makes an already illegal thing more illegal. The new wrinkle it adds is that if a police officer has a "reasonable suspicion" that a person is in the country illegally, they are required to ask them for documentation.

The definition of "reasonable suspicion" is studiously ignored by all those in favor of the bill. Easy to see why, since the only tool available is racial profiling. The bill requires police to use racial profiling. Sick stuff.

It should be noted that many police departments in Arizona were against the bill. First, the bill itself is redundant. Being an illegal immigrants is by definition illegal. Second, the bill proposes no new funding for the substantial increase in the prison population of both the rightfully and wrongfully accused. Third, it just doesn't provide any meaningful additions to its supposed goal, the capture of illegal immigrants.

What it will provide, is many wonderful cases like the link Doggett posted. People are always willing to trade away the rights of others, while forgetting that their own rights are included. In this case, the right of existing in your own country without papers has now been stripped from you. That the laws targets only the brown-skinned population of the state is despicable.

Wow, great post.   Cheers
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trekgeezer
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« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2010, 10:56:41 AM »

My biggest gripe about this law is the potential harassment of American citizens (30% of Arizona's citizens are Hispanic).  I've heard and seen some pretty wild stuff, like you can tell the illegals from people who are he legally by the shoes they wear.


If the businesses that hire illegals were prosecuted for it, a lot of this would be a moot point.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2010, 11:03:23 AM »

I don't think anyone from any other country has a RIGHT to live in arizona.

also, have you seen mexico's immigration laws? they make arizonas look like pure open borders, they are insanely draconian.

Why can't illegal aliens just not go to arizona? I don't understand this issue I guess but I disagree with most here on it I believe. I f arizona says it doesn't want illegal immigrants than that's what they say.  Who is anyone to question that? it's their state
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ulthar
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« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2010, 11:29:31 AM »


 I f arizona says it doesn't want illegal immigrants than that's what they say.  Who is anyone to question that? it's their state



That's a VERY good question that reaches far beyond immigration.  There are 10th Amendment as well as "State's Rights vs Federalism" issues.

My prediction is that ultimately the people of the individual states are going to "rebel" against the one-size-fits-all style of federalism we are moving toward.  Whether it's immigration policy, obscenity/morality laws, textbooks for schools, etc, the people of state "A" are getting tired of being told how they have to live their lives from people either in Washington, DC or State "B."
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« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2010, 11:40:04 AM »

arizona is under siege from the drug cartels granted it is americas fault for buying so many drugs but there are alot of scary people involved in that whle thing and Arizona is right on the border. it's a complicated issue

Well, that's the rhetoric, but it's not true.

I live in Arizona, and the sad truth is that if you want to get elected in this state, you have to come up with a new way to hassle "illegal immigrants." SB 1070, the law in question, was put together by racists and promoted by lazy, scapegoating politicians.

The law, as written, makes it illegal to be in the country illegally. Yes, it makes an already illegal thing more illegal. The new wrinkle it adds is that if a police officer has a "reasonable suspicion" that a person is in the country illegally, they are required to ask them for documentation.

The definition of "reasonable suspicion" is studiously ignored by all those in favor of the bill. Easy to see why, since the only tool available is racial profiling. The bill requires police to use racial profiling. Sick stuff.

It should be noted that many police departments in Arizona were against the bill. First, the bill itself is redundant. Being an illegal immigrants is by definition illegal. Second, the bill proposes no new funding for the substantial increase in the prison population of both the rightfully and wrongfully accused. Third, it just doesn't provide any meaningful additions to its supposed goal, the capture of illegal immigrants.

What it will provide, is many wonderful cases like the link Doggett posted. People are always willing to trade away the rights of others, while forgetting that their own rights are included. In this case, the right of existing in your own country without papers has now been stripped from you. That the laws targets only the brown-skinned population of the state is despicable.
Like I said: "erudite".  Excellent commentary.
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