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Badmovies.org Forum  |  Other Topics  |  Off Topic Discussion  |  Weird News Stories  |  Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship...and then kill a few people. « previous next »
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Author Topic: Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship...and then kill a few people.  (Read 1519 times)
Doggett
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« on: May 31, 2010, 09:26:44 AM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

 Bluesad

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 09:40:36 AM »

israels way they operate is they shoot and you get out of the way. If you aren't hip to that or you can't move in time it's your fault for provoking them (see rachel corrie, Qana massacre (s), USS Liberty). It's not ethical but i'ts how they've chosen to defend their country. I just wish my tax dollars weren't paying for it.
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Doggett
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2010, 09:43:52 AM »

They were in international waters!!!
It just seems so not cool.

Quote
"Unfortunately this group were dead-set on confrontation,"

"Live fire was used against our forces. They initiated the violence, that's 100% clear," he said.


Mark Regev told the BBC.

He's obviousdly gonna say that. He's a Israeli government spokesman not exactly a neutral party.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 09:46:55 AM by Doggett » Logged

                                             

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2010, 09:52:19 AM »

"16 dead, 6 Turks" Turkey is  NATO member. this complicates things.


noticed this:


The New York Times "The criticism [of Israel over the attack] offered a propaganda coup to Israelís foes, particularly the Hamas group that holds sway in Gaza."

classy. the writer, isabel kirschner, is an israeli btw
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ulthar
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2010, 09:54:13 AM »


He's obviousdly gonna say that. He's a Israeli government spokesman not exactly a neutral party.


True that he's not a neutral party, but that by itself does not mean that what he is saying is not true.

In the absence of evidence one way or another (and news reporters' opinions are no more evidence than his statements), perhaps we should not fret and speculate about it.  Just a thought.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2010, 10:07:16 AM »

I'm all for getting the facts but it's hard to believe this boat of aid workers would launch a military attack on the IDF with the expectation of, what, defeating the entire army?

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indianasmith
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2010, 12:50:44 PM »

I have a bigger question . . . considering that the Palestinians have launched almost daily rocket attacks at Israel for several YEARS now, why the heck is ANYONE giving them any aid at all?  I honestly get sick and tired of the international browbeating of the Israelis.  They give up land and give up land and give up land so that the Palestinians will make peace, and what happens?  The Palestinians lob more rockets at them!  And then deliberately plant their rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals, so that when the Israelis strike back, children die, and the international community hammers Israel some more.

Israel is a representative democracy that wants nothing more than for its people to live on their land in peace.  Jewish civilization and culture originated there, and has been there for over 3400 years.  Israel is surrounded by dictators and theocrats whose goal is nothing less than the death of every living Jew.  So can we blame them for being a bit paranoid when yet MORE foreign aid is sent to their enemies?

Sorry, Lester, but when a people are provoked and attacked  on a daily basis for years, they may jump the gun a bit on occasion.  I don't have enough facts to condemn or condone this particular incident.   But I do remember who danced in the streets on 9/11 . . . and who wept with us.
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Doggett
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2010, 01:09:37 PM »

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I wouldn't condone any horrible things that Hamas do, but that doesn't excuse Israel's actions. They also used the passports of their allies in their assasination recently. As a Brit I find that very worrying...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 01:16:11 PM by Doggett » Logged

                                             

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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2010, 02:18:55 PM »

Quote
I have a bigger question . . . considering that the Palestinians have launched almost daily rocket attacks at Israel for several YEARS now, why the heck is ANYONE giving them any aid at all?



holy crap.  dude they were bring in like water purifiers and tents and stuff. Do you want the women and children in this conflict to die of thirst and starvation?  because they happened to be born in a place called gaza?  what if you had been born there.

 
Quote
I honestly get sick and tired of the international browbeating of the Israelis.  They give up land and give up land and give up land so that the Palestinians will make peace, and what happens?





uhh, I think you got that backwards bro



  
Quote
The Palestinians lob more rockets at them!  And then deliberately plant their rocket launchers next to schools and hospitals, so that when the Israelis strike back, children die, and the international community hammers Israel some more


it's wrong no question. but more people were killed by israel today than have been killed by those rockets in 10 years.  Those places they are launching those rockets used to be belong to palestinians too. I mean look at that map. Gaza is hugely overcrowded. The way I heard it described was imagine if they took everyone from southern california and put them in  in tijuana and expected them to be happy about it.


Quote
Israel is a representative democracy that wants nothing more than for its people to live on their land in peace.


did the people in gaza vote on being blockaded???  would you vote to blockade yourself? what kind of democracy is that?

  
Quote
Jewish civilization and culture originated there, and has been there for over 3400 years.  Israel is surrounded by dictators and theocrats whose goal is nothing less than the death of every living Jew.  So can we blame them for being a bit paranoid when yet MORE foreign aid is sent to their enemies?


we aren't talking about theorcrats and dictators,. we are talking about thousands of ordinary human beings who happened to be born in place called gaza.  yes Israel has a much better government system than their neighbors. far better

Quote
Sorry, Lester, but when a people are provoked and attacked  on a daily basis for years, they may jump the gun a bit on occasion.  I don't have enough facts to condemn or condone this particular incident.   But I do remember who danced in the streets on 9/11 . . . and who wept with us.


"The Israeli newspaper Ma'ariv on Wednesday reported that Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu told an audience at Bar Ilan university that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel.

"We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," Ma'ariv quoted the former prime minister as saying. He reportedly added that these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."
"

http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-netanyahu-says-9-11-terror-attacks-good-for-israel-1.244044

I wouldn't call those tears exactly.


Again, I get that you are a big Israel guy and I have no problem with that. Their predicament doesn't excuse ever thing they do though.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 02:26:46 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

lester1/2jr
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2010, 02:51:03 PM »

from an article I just read


"Military bureaucrats enforcing Israel's blockade of Gaza allow frozen salmon filet, facial scrub and low-fat yogurt into the Hamas-ruled territory. Cilantro and instant coffee are another matter _ they are banned as luxury items."

?? facial scrubs but not cilantro?

I would love to have been at the meeting where they arrived at these distinctions
link
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 02:59:21 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

indianasmith
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2010, 04:49:56 PM »

Actually,  I think Netanyahu was quite correct - 9/11 gave the American people the first taste of the threat that Israel lives with every single day.   But  a balanced perspective arrived at long after the event is NOT what I was referring to.  I was referring to the fact that, ON THE DAY 3000 Americans died, Palestinians danced in the streets and fired their ubiquitous AK-47's into the air in celebration, while Israel held a national ceremony of mourning and solidarity - Jews around the world wept for us while Arabs rejoiced, something this administration no doubt wishes for us to forget.

Of course it stinks to be a Palestinian born in Gaza.  But much of their dilemma is of their own making, or else manufactured by the Arab states that surround Israel.  They could have absorbed the Palestinian refugees a hundred times over since 1948.  They have refused to do, so that they can whip up the masses and incite them to hatred and violence over the "Palestinian problem".  That way the proverbial "Arab street" is always in a state of rage and hate towards Israel and America . . . . and conveniently enough, don't notice that they are ruled over by rich, corrupt despots while they sleep on sand and rocks and have to burn camel dung in their campfires.

You would also do well to remember that the British offered to split the Palestinian territory between the Jews and the native Arab inhabitants back in 1948 - and the Arabs chose war over diplomacy.  As a result, they lost all of the territory when they could have held half of it.  The huge losses of land since then have been as a result of wars that Arabs started against Israel.  They started wars, they lost wars, they lost territory.  That's what happens when you try to whip someone who is much, much badder and more sophisticated than you are.

Again, I don't have enough information to condone or condemn this latest incident.  But I get sick and tired of seeing Israel get pounded in the international arena while the poor, pitiful Palestinians thrive on a cult of perpetual victimhood.  The simple fact is, there never was a Muslim state of Palestine.  There never was a unique Palestinian culture.  There are no great works of Palestinian literature or folklore prior to 1948.  The Palestinian nationalist movement was manufactured out of the whole cloth AFTER the creation of Israel.  Israel, again and again, has offered  territorial settlements to the Palestinians in exchange for them renouncing terrorism and acknowledging Israel's right to exist.  They have stubbornly refused to do so, or else have done so with arcane reservations and conditions that make the statement meaningless.

I will say this -   if any group of indigenous Americans decided to launch a campaign of terror and intimidation, with rocket attacks, bus bombings, and all the other terroristic techniques that the Palestinians use against Israel, all targeting our American government and our American civilians - that group would have long since ceased to exist by now.  All things considered, Israel's response to the endless provocations and terrorism of the Palestinians has been balanced, measured, and RICHLY DESERVED!
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2010, 05:11:03 PM »

Quote
Actually,  I think Netanyahu was quite correct - 9/11 gave the American people the first taste of the threat that Israel lives with every single day.


yeah I don't know that giving 9/11 positive attributes is something I'm really into. I don't think it was a good thing in any way

Quote
Jews around the world wept for us while Arabs rejoiced


I think jews like netanyahu were rejoicing actually, as he expressed in his speech. I don't think "arabs" and "jews" think along uniform lines though.  my guess is most of the arabs and jews who died in the building for example were uniformly negative. Iran had a candlight vigil thing. and celebrating didn't actually kill anybody I don't think. it was tacky, I'll give yuo that

Quote
They could have absorbed the Palestinian refugees a hundred times over since 1948.


you have this habit I find od for a conservative of conflating the people with their leaders. are we the united atates of obama? I certainl don't see it that way.

and you are putting the cart before the horse. arab leaders rail against the west to get on their peoples good side because they know the people hate the US and israel. it goes both ways really.

Quote
There never was a unique Palestinian culture.  There are no great works of Palestinian literature or folklore prior to 1948.


it was majortity arab for 18 centuries. I'd say that's about enough of a precedent

the founding of jerusalem


My mom worked in a jewish rest home and the older residents always called it palestine.I don't doubt there wasn't much culturally in terms of like museum pieces and so forth.


Quote
All things considered, Israel's response to the endless provocations and terrorism of the Palestinians has been balanced, measured, and RICHLY DESERVED!


the fact is if it wasn't for politics and the settler crazies they could easily just go back to the 1967 borders and THEN unload on anyone who messed with them. They aren't going to do that though. I can't believe this is still going on in 2010 it's nuts
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 05:23:04 PM by lester1/2jr » Logged

ulthar
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2010, 05:21:58 PM »


yeah I don't know that giving 9/11 positive attributes is something I'm really into. I don't think it was a good thing in any way


Finding positives in negative or bad things is a mark of true leadership in the real (ie, not academic) world.  We try to teach our children this any time they or we as a family face a disappointment (even small ones).

When something bad happens, do you let it defeat you?  (Rhetorical, not aimed at any individual in this discussion).  You have a choice to make.  You either turn it into something positive or cower in the corner, beaten.

What Netanyahu is doing is providing leadership for the people of his nation.  He is not trying to please lester, ulthar, indianasmith or anyone HERE (in principle).  If he "uses" 9/11 in this fashion to consolidate the American-Israeli connection in the minds of Israelis I sure cannot fault him for that.

In fact, the Palestinians do this sort of thing all the time...use death and mayhem to foster 'nationalism' behind their cause.  I don't see how you can condemn the Netanyahu for doing exactly what Arafat did for decades.  It's a common game, I think, among leaders during war time.
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lester1/2jr
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2010, 05:45:48 PM »

NO actually I don't like leaders of foreign countries saying 9/11 was a good thing and I can fault him for that and I do.

it was a national tragedy and if anyone feels it benefits them they are disturbed.
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indianasmith
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2010, 06:49:11 PM »

I've expressed my opinion and won't harp on it further . . . Lester, you're not a bad guy, but there are a lot of issues I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on.  Let me take exception with one thing you said:

9/11 was not a "national tragedy."  Calling it that shortchanges the meaning of the day.  It was a deliberate, calculated act of war, by Islamic extremists, against the United States.  Was it tragic?  Of course.  But it sure as heck wasn't some kind of accident or act of nature.  It was done to us deliberately by people whose goal is nothing less than the complete overthrow of Western Civilization, and the implementation of worldwide Sharia law.
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