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Author Topic: You Know What Really Grinds My Gears?  (Read 624276 times)
Skull
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« Reply #180 on: July 29, 2010, 03:53:51 PM »

Quote
Have you heard them propose a SINGLE solution that does NOT involve spending more money while making the government even bigger and more intrusive than it already is?

Well, they're reducing the penalty for crack cocaine possession to put it more in line with regular cocaine.  That's going to reduce costs some $40 million a year.  It's a small step but a good one.  I think that's a change everyone who is thinking clearly can support.   Thumbup  Personally, I think decriminalizing possession of small amounts of drugs would be a nearly universal good, and would save enormous amounts of money.

OH... how??? This is a silly logic that never makes sense. How doing something that is harmful can save money?

So why not change grand theft. Really why say in jail longer for stealing $250 dollars when we know $250 dollars couldnt buy anything today. So why not reduce the penality? (logic makes no sense? neither reducing the penality of possession)

Quote
And I have heard them propose other stuff, just not anything that has enough votes to actually pass.  It's really difficult for them to pass much of anything.  I've heard several discuss reducing military spending, but of course, that can't pass.  But, obviously, if we truly can't afford health care and industry regulations, we certainly can't afford military spending per year in the 2/3s of a trillion dollar per year range.

We need the military otherwise we'll still be living in the 1800's actually its our military that is keeping the world connected. And without it it'll be chaos.

What really makes no sense is Government controlled healthcare and the freedom to posses Recreational drugs. [has anybody seen Demolition Man (1993)?]


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flackbait
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« Reply #181 on: July 29, 2010, 04:26:09 PM »

Quote
Have you heard them propose a SINGLE solution that does NOT involve spending more money while making the government even bigger and more intrusive than it already is?

Well, they're reducing the penalty for crack cocaine possession to put it more in line with regular cocaine.  That's going to reduce costs some $40 million a year.  It's a small step but a good one.  I think that's a change everyone who is thinking clearly can support.   Thumbup  Personally, I think decriminalizing possession of small amounts of drugs would be a nearly universal good, and would save enormous amounts of money.

OH... how??? This is a silly logic that never makes sense. How doing something that is harmful can save money?

So why not change grand theft. Really why say in jail longer for stealing $250 dollars when we know $250 dollars couldn't buy anything today. So why not reduce the penalty? (logic makes no sense? neither reducing the penalty of possession)

Quote

I really don't mean to offend you Skull or Jim H. with this, but their is some logic to his and your side of the argument here.
The reasoning for reducing  sentencing on possension of drugs like Marijuana and cocaine is that a good chunk of people are rotting in prison for ages and wasting taxpayers money. It costs approximately 50,000 a year to keep one person in jail. So for about every 20 people you've let go the government saves 1 million dollars for more important things, or depending on your viewpoint needs 1 million less to operate, which in turn could lower taxes.

However to play devils advocate a lot of those people who were thrown in prison for possension were drug dealers and criminals so who's to say that they won't go back to doing what they used to do? Releasing these people can cost more money in the long run if you have spend more money tracking them down again than you did just having them sit and rot in prison.

My point in saying all this is that there just ain't a simple logical solution either way.
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Skull
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« Reply #182 on: July 29, 2010, 04:54:02 PM »

flackbait

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I really don't mean to offend you Skull or Jim H. with this, but their is some logic to his and your side of the argument here.

Non taken... (and I dont mean any offence to you.)

Quote
The reasoning for reducing sentencing on possension of drugs like Marijuana and cocaine is that a good chunk of people are rotting in prison for ages and wasting taxpayers money. It costs approximately 50,000 a year to keep one person in jail. So for about every 20 people you've let go the government saves 1 million dollars for more important things, or depending on your viewpoint needs 1 million less to operate, which in turn could lower taxes.

hehe everytime I hear somebody saying this I visualized those silver headed robots chasing Robert Duvall in [THX 1138 (1971)]

The fact is... the numbers are grossly wrong. 50,000 dollars is a lot of money. Prisoners should be getting steak dinners almost every day and it wouldnt come up to 50,000 dollars. the people in jail are getting crap food and are treated for healthcare when and if necessary. I'd bet it'll cost closer to 1,000 per prisoner in jail.

This is what annoys me about government they sure dont know how to spend money and they can make up any number if they like.

Quote
However to play devils advocate a lot of those people who were thrown in prison for possension were drug dealers and criminals so who's to say that they won't go back to doing what they used to do? Releasing these people can cost more money in the long run if you have spend more money tracking them down again than you did just having them sit and rot in prison.

You cannot reward people for doing crime. And sending them home early is a reward.

Quote
My point in saying all this is that there just ain't a simple logical solution either way.

Oh there is... effecient government, please.
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Doggett
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« Reply #183 on: July 29, 2010, 05:03:04 PM »


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My point in saying all this is that there just ain't a simple logical solution either way.

Oh there is... effecient government, please.

Those don't exist anywhere is the world.  TeddyR

I heard North Korea is pretty effecient, but its not really my cup of tea.
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« Reply #184 on: July 29, 2010, 05:08:57 PM »

I love this thread.
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Jim H
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« Reply #185 on: July 30, 2010, 12:56:21 AM »

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OH... how??? This is a silly logic that never makes sense. How doing something that is harmful can save money?


It's already been somewhat stated, but it costs a lot of money to keep people in prison. 

http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/laomenus/sections/crim_justice/6_cj_inmatecost.aspx?catid=3

There's a breakdown of the cost of the average California inmate.  It does vary state to state.  Keep in mind this is including the overhead costs like paying for guards and administrators and such.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/faq.html

Florida has it at more like $20k.

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The fact is... the numbers are grossly wrong. 50,000 dollars is a lot of money.  Prisoners should be getting steak dinners almost every day and it wouldnt come up to 50,000 dollars. the people in jail are getting crap food and are treated for healthcare when and if necessary. I'd bet it'll cost closer to 1,000 per prisoner in jail.


Ok.  Prove this.  I just provided a government website's statistics.  Do you have anything besides your claim and personal beliefs to back up this statement? 

Equally importantly, police cost money.  And courts, lawyers on both sides (public defenders), the whole nine yards.  These are other costs that would be saved.  Not to mention, if the police aren't forced to deal with petty drug crime, they can focus on other, more damaging crimes.

Quote
However to play devils advocate a lot of those people who were thrown in prison for possension were drug dealers and criminals so who's to say that they won't go back to doing what they used to do


Well, I did specify small possession.  But even if this is so, if they're only in there for drug charges, what difference does it make?  If they're in there for OTHER charges as well, they'd stay in there. 
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Skull
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« Reply #186 on: July 30, 2010, 01:55:38 AM »

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Jim H ~ Ok.  Prove this.


Ok. You live in a box. You get 3 meals a day. Lets say McDonalds. Morning 5 dollars. Lunch 5 dollars. Supper 5 dollars. that 15 dollars a day. 15 dollars times it by 365 days is... 5,475 dollars.

Heating, electrical and water is based upon the government controlled building. Assuming that is cost is 100 dollars a month each. Do you pay 100 dollars a month for each utility? Would you need to spend 100 dollars for each utility for a 20'x20' room? how about a 10'x10' cell... anyway that 3,600 dollars.

So If I add 5,475 and 3,600 I get 9,075 dollars.

Medical. the last time I went to the doctor was 2 years ago. When was your? did you spend 1000 dollars? Lets assume each convect get treated for medical do you actually think they are getting 1000 dollars worth of treatment?

Ok... here is the problem with my numbers...

1st... The prisons wish they get McDonalds so whatever the government is feeding them is SO DAMN EXPENSIVE AND IT MAY BE CHEAPER TO PICK-UP MCDONALDS.

2nd... there are 2 prisoners in the cell... so why in gods name does it cost 600 dollars a month in utilities to keep 2 prisoners in a 10x10 cell.

3rd... Healthcare is the question... Acually its unknown. So If I'd figure 9,000 dollars on each prisoner in general and the government is claiming 50,000 then they are saying each prisoner is getting 49,000 in healthcare treatment. Really???


If you going to tell me somebody has to pay the guards... Guards are needed. Even if you have 1000 or 10000 prisoners it doesnt change the fact that guards are needed.

But since we are talking about cost lest see how it works... for every 100 prisoners there should be 1 guard. lets say it cost each prisoner 100 dollars per month (I like round easy numbers) so each guard is getting so each guard is getting 10,000 per month. Really? how does that work. Ok... maybe there is 1 guard per 50 prisoners so each guard should get 5,000 per month (gee I wish I get 5,000 per month)... a prison guard salary from 2004 is $33,600 (http://www.job-hunt.org/careers/prison-guards.shtml) so if the prison guard is making 2, 800 a month and how many prisons do they watch?

Time to do some reverse math...

About 442,000 prison guards can be found working in the US in 2004 (source above) and 2,304,115 were incarcerated in U.S. prisons and jails in 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States)... so there is 1 guard per 5 prisoners (really now)... anyway lets assume its true then 2,800 is divided in 5 prisoners... is 560 per prisoner... adding the cost to 6,720 and the 10,000 = 16,720... still not even half way to 50,000.

Although I heard of stories that there is a 20 to 40 per 1 guard in a prison... (It's getting late for me to find this but I'm happy to say 1 guard per 5 prisoner because I know that a silly number and it still doesnt add to the 50,000 dollar cost.)

Actually if somebody was in prison (or guard) can you tell me how super fantastic my numbers really is?





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Mr. DS
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« Reply #187 on: July 30, 2010, 06:39:13 AM »

Exotic pets that morons buy and realize too late they can’t take care of them and release them into the wild.  Thus, they end up screwing up a well established ecosystem.  For example, the Burmese python issue in Florida.  Personally, I don’t understand the point in acquiring a snake as a pet with the potential to grow over 10 feet long and shoving it into a small glass tank.  Well unless you work in a zoo.  If you can't take care of it, buy a god*mn hamster and be normal rebel.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 06:46:30 AM by The DarkSider » Logged

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« Reply #188 on: July 30, 2010, 07:48:09 AM »

If you can't take care of it, buy a god*mn hamster and be normal rebel.

 TeddyR I think that applies very well to that guy in SA whose tiger went AWOL en route to the vet.  Buggedout
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Jim H
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« Reply #189 on: July 30, 2010, 10:56:06 AM »

Quote
Heating, electrical and water is based upon the government controlled building. Assuming that is cost is 100 dollars a month each. Do you pay 100 dollars a month for each utility? Would you need to spend 100 dollars for each utility for a 20'x20' room? how about a 10'x10' cell... anyway that 3,600 dollars.

Your entire post is a bunch of assumptions, and as far as I can tell your numbers are simply guesses.  This doesn't prove anything. 

But, that's not really important anyway, as your own numbers are still way higher than $1000 a person (you may note I linked to Florida's prison system, which quotes $20k per average prisoner at a state facility, and around $15k for a typical adult male prisoner), and even if it truly only cost, say, $1000 per person per year, that's still money that'd be saved if they WEREN'T there. 

So, as far as I can tell, you're basically ignoring my actual argument.  Which was that minor drug possession should be decriminalized, and that the removal of an entire category of crime would reduce costs to the legal system.
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Skull
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« Reply #190 on: July 30, 2010, 12:22:43 PM »


Your entire post is a bunch of assumptions, and as far as I can tell your numbers are simply guesses.  This doesn't prove anything. 


You are correct... But I've also show you the cost of living with "real" numbers.

Quote
But, that's not really important anyway, as your own numbers are still way higher than $1000 a person (you may note I linked to Florida's prison system, which quotes $20k per average prisoner at a state facility, and around $15k for a typical adult male prisoner), and even if it truly only cost, say, $1000 per person per year, that's still money that'd be saved if they WEREN'T there. 

lol... I also think my numbers is quite high. [and I'd came up with 16,000] If you factor $600 a month on utilities per cell and multiply prison with 500 cells... that's 300,000 per month on utilities...  Buggedout 300,000!!! Do you think it cost 300,000 dollars per month for power, plumbing and heat?

Lets talk about food. Prisoners get crap food, I'd shown you McDonalds value meal prices. Do you think they food they are getting is better then McDonalds?

Like I'd said the numbers dont add up because they are made up. If you think I'm wrong then try to sit inside a small room for an hour and think about your limitations and try to figure that the government is paying 50,000 or 20,000 a year for your stay and figure where all the money is going. I bet you cant!

Quote
So, as far as I can tell, you're basically ignoring my actual argument.  Which was that minor drug possession should be decriminalized, and that the removal of an entire category of crime would reduce costs to the legal system.

No... so what is minor drug possession? 1 once. 1/2 once. 1 pill. 100 pills 10000 pills. less then 100 dolars? what is minor... compaired to a drug dealer?

You either have drugs or not... nothing minor! You either are stealing money or not. You are either raping a person or not. you are doing a crime or not. drawing these lines like minor possesion is only rewarding the criminal for not doing more .
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Flick James
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« Reply #191 on: July 30, 2010, 12:29:57 PM »

I'm not taking sides Skull, but one thing I'll say is that there is a distinct difference between someone who is in possession of a joint or someone who is in possession of a pound. The first person is likely simply a user, whereas the second person likely has intent to distribute. These are separate crimes. Whether you agree with decriminalizing drugs or not, are you saying that different crimes don't carry different severities? Different degrees of murder carry different degrees of punishment. Why should drug possession be any different? A user should get the same punishment as a dealer? That's like saying some poor schmoe who shoplifted a dozen eggs to feed his family should get the same punishment as a guy who embezzled 2 million dollars. I can't say I agree with that one.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 12:38:48 PM by Flick James » Logged

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Jim H
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« Reply #192 on: July 30, 2010, 12:33:49 PM »

Quote
You either have drugs or not... nothing minor! You either are stealing money or not. You are either raping a person or not. you are doing a crime or not. drawing these lines like minor possesion is only rewarding the criminal for not doing more .

Once again, you're ignoring the point entirely.  
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« Reply #193 on: July 30, 2010, 01:00:57 PM »

I think there needs to be much more education with regards to drugs and their many negative effects including alcohol and tobacco...at least let people know how they're slowing killing themselves with poisons if they should choose to abuse said drugs.
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Flick James
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« Reply #194 on: July 30, 2010, 01:29:40 PM »

If people choose to engage in drug use, tobacco, alcohol, whatever, the consequences are on them. Why do we feel the need to have to educate everyone and criminalize things that, in and of themselves, don't victimize anyone. Look, if someone smokes a joint, does a line, shoots up heroin, whatever, in their own home, and doesn't rape anyone, doesn't steal, doesn't do anything that violates the rights of anyone else, then what the f**k business is it of anyone else's? Simply indulging in the substance didn't harm anyone. It's when a person takes that into the public and endangers others that it becomes a problem. If that same person then goes out and kills someone or steals a car, then they have violated someone else's rights and have therefore forfeited their own at least to some degree. How is this a complicated issue? It's called accountability for one's actions. Honestly, if someone broke into your house and stole from you, then they've violated your rights and your privacy and have invaded you. Does it really matter whether or not they were sober? It certainly doesn't to me. Do I really give a f**k if Joe from next door is in his living room smoking a joint? No. I do not. And I have children. Now, if Joe from next door tries to get my underage kid to smoke a joint with him or anything else to my kid, then it becomes a problem. Everyone wants to blame alcohol and drugs as if alcohol and drugs committed the crime. That's absurd. That's like shooting someone and saying the gun committed the crime. No it didn't, it was you raising the gun, pointing it at someone, and squeezing the trigger, numbnuts. Or saying, "Oh, the gun just went off, I didn't mean to shoot that person." Then why did you have it out and were pointing it at the person, dips**t? So there, I've come out and said I'm in favor of decriminalizing drugs and given a basic justification for my position.

Whatever happened to simple accountability? In the old days of justice, before the prohibition of substances started rearing it's ugly head about a century ago, you got punished if you victimized another person. End of story. If you hung out in an opium den in 1890 and got high all day long, then went home and crashed, nothing happened to you. You didn't get arrested, you didn't go to jail, none of that bulls**t. Now, if your life became a ruin because you became an opium addict, well then that was your own fault. Is this such an unreasonable thing to accept?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 02:38:24 PM by Flick James » Logged

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